'Knight'-like Character

[Pinkcrusade]

Hello, everyone.

I am in a campaign with relatively high optimization (not high enough for gestalt), and I am interested in making a 'knight' character, that isn't actually a "knight" (as in class (I don't really like the feel of it, for some reason)). Due to not wanting to feel useless compared to others (Druid, etc), I was looking for good direction to create a knight-themed character, wearing full plate, mounted perhaps, but not the Knight class.

Is there an 'uberlancer' class, that doesn't require Frenzied Berserker? That would fit well in this campaign, I believe.

Thanks.

[Diarmuid]

Crusader is usually a pretty good alternative to Knight or Paladin.

[Flickerdart]

FB is unnecessary because once you can only one-shot one enemy per attack, whether you deal 1000 or 10000 damage. Unless, of course, you are a 19th level Streetfighter Barbarian - if they drop a foe on a charge and have movement remaining, they can keep charging and dropping foes indefinitely. Get a Small barbarian with a Cheetah mount (or just be a were-cheetah with LA buyoff and level drain to get rid of RHD), activate its 1/hour 500ft charge, and pinball across the field crushing skull after skull.

[Pinkcrusade]

Is the Crusader considered a viable class against optimized classes though? Also, do you know of any Crusader handbooks that would be of use?

Thanks, that is helpful -- I have a Barbarian right now, and I have ascertained how to do around 190-ish damage on a critical at level 6, but what level do I have to be to deal out the damage you projected?

[Xerlith]

The crusader is a tier 3 class that has a pretty high optimization ceiling. I think that it should be to your tastes.

If you are not against some spellcasting in your knight, Crusader4/Cleric1/Prestige Paladin2 gives you a Paladin's mount. How you progress it is a wholly different thing.

On a sidenote, Crusader, while strong, doesn't really work while charging - the maneuvers need mostly a standard action to initiate.

[Flickerdart]

Is the Crusader considered a viable class against optimized classes though? Also, do you know of any Crusader handbooks that would be of use?

Thanks, that is helpful -- I have a Barbarian right now, and I have ascertained how to do around 190-ish damage on a critical at level 6, but what level do I have to be to deal out the damage you projected?
1000 isn't hard to get by mid-high levels. 10,000 is leaving the range of PO.

Lance: 1d8 damage, x2 damage on a charge.
+Spirited Charge: x3 damage on a charge.
+Valorous weapon: x4 damage on a charge.
+Power Attack & Shock Trooper: +2*BAB damage.
Wielding a weapon two-handed: +1.5*STR damage.

By level 6, a barbarian might have about 28 STR during a rage, for a modifier of +9. That's 1d8+14 base damage from a +1 lance (average 17.5). 12 more comes from Power Attack, for a total of 29.5. Multiplied by 4, we're looking at around 128 damage on a non-critical hit with very little effort (well, a few feats). Given that this barbarian has Spirit Lion Totem and Whirling Frenzy (because of course he does!) he attacks twice more, for a total of 384 damage if all attacks hit.

At level 20, this same barbarian might have 46 STR while raging, and let's say a +5 Valorous Speed lance (not that good a weapon, but I digress). Without any feats on top of what he had at level 6, his base damage is 1d8+32, average 36.5. 40 more comes from Power Attack, for a total of 76.5. Multiplied by 4, that's 306 damage. However, by this point he has six attacks (standard 4, 1 from Whirling Frenzy, 1 from Speed weapon) so if they all hit, he does 1,836 damage.

Incidentally, paladins make decent chargers due to their Charging Smite class feature. Grab Prestige Paladin, trade away your mount for Charging Smite, get a different mount with Wild Cohort or Leadership or something, and ruin the day of any Evil foe you come across.

[Slipperychicken]

Is the Crusader considered a viable class against optimized classes though? Also, do you know of any Crusader handbooks that would be of use?


Tell me about the builds and strategies which your party members and opponents use. Optimization is relative, and fitting into the game's power level (and your party role) is much more important than being stronger than everyone else.

@Damage: If you want big piles of damage, the Crusader has it's own infinite damage loop called the "d2 Crusader". You take the Aura of Chaos stance (which lets you reroll any maxed-out damage dice and add the new roll. Also, it doesn't require you to be chaotic -the alignment tags aren't restrictions). Then, use a weapon which deals 1d2 damage, and get some effect like Imbued Healing which lets you reroll 1s on damage rolls (so every result is a 2), or treat 1s as 2s. That means all damage dice are treated as the maximum result and infinitely "rerolled" and added again for infinite damage.

Here's a crusader handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0). This next one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655) is one I've used myself.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Crusader is a very solid class, aye, with more than enough options to be fun in play. If you're interested in a mounted character, you can drop a feat on Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)-- maneuvers work just fine from the back of a dire bat. Alternately, if your DM is ok with a little homebrew, you might propose trading out, say, Steely Resolve for a paladin's special mount option.

[Ortesk]

Take the feat trollblooded


Be a saint (Immune to acid)
Half Gold Dragon

Regen and cant be bypassed, go crusader and be the tankiest bamf in the world (Paladin is good for risen of the marty spell, ive used that trick before)

[SoraWolf7]

I think it comes down to how you play a class, your choice of weapons, and your character. I accidently made a psuedo-knight in the last campaign I played in using Artificer. My favorite weapons of choice were a rifle-lance I made and a steampunk magic motorcycle as my mount. In truth, his personality wasn't knight-like as he had like 8 WIS after racial (de)buffs, and he was in an artificer culture, but still, we also had a unicorn in the party who acted like a knight, so the knight-bros motif was there.

[Flickerdart]

his personality wasn't knight-like as he had like 8 WIS
Anyone who subscribes to foolish notions like "honor" isn't going to have a very high Wisdom. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Anyone who subscribes to foolish notions like "honor" isn't going to have a very high Wisdom. :smalltongue:

I've been told that knights were little more than armored state-sponsored thugs warriors until the role was idealized, after the crusades.


I like that version more (i.e. Knight = Medieval guy whose parents were rich enough to buy him training, armor, and a horse). It allows knights to have more depth and less stereotype.

[mabriss lethe]

A Crusader's access to the White Raven discipline lets them be more than competent chargers.

[Slipperychicken]

A Crusader's access to the White Raven discipline lets them be more than competent chargers.

This goes double if you're lance-charging atop a mount, since the damage bonus from White Raven maneuvers is static and thus can be multiplied.

[Pinkcrusade]

Thank you all for the -excellent- replies! Unfortunately, my DM is not allowing me to be a Crusader, but, this information will be useful if I opt to play one in a different campaign!

Also, pertaining to the Barbarian, how would he have 28 Str. without being a FB? My Orc has a Str. of 22, which is 26 with Rage -- where would I be able to pick up an extra two strength at level 4-6?

[Pinkcrusade]

Also, unfortunately, I was not able to pick up Spirit Lion when I created my Barbarian... are there any feasible ways for a level six or seven to pick it up?

[Kane0]

Relatively high op but you aren't allowed nice things like Crusader or Spirit Lion?

Make a cleric, buff yourself up and go to town.

[Flickerdart]

where would I be able to pick up an extra two strength at level 4-6?
Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Not really affordable at the same time as a magic weapon unless you have a pocket Artificer, but that's what Leadership is for.


Also, unfortunately, I was not able to pick up Spirit Lion when I created my Barbarian... are there any feasible ways for a level six or seven to pick it up?

Retrain. Rules are in PHBII.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Relatively high op but you aren't allowed nice things like Crusader or Spirit Lion?

Make a cleric, buff yourself up and go to town.
Yeah, probably this. A "fake paladin" build, perhaps. (Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Fist of Raziel 10/full-casting PrC 3? Lose 2 caster levels, gain 14 levels of full BAB and smiting.)

[Kioras]

Yeah, probably this. A "fake paladin" build, perhaps. (Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Fist of Raziel 10/full-casting PrC 3? Lose 2 caster levels, gain 14 levels of full BAB and smiting.)

I prefer something similar to that.

High optimization, but no nice things for melee?

Cloistered Cleric (4), ordained champion(3), Prestige paladin(2), knight of the raven or fist of raziel (10). Mix in 1 full casting cleric PRC of you choice, depending what you want to grab.

17 BAB, 17 caster levels, cleric and paladin spell list, grab battle blessing to swift action the paladin spell list too.

Go Codzilla in the game.

[Nocharim]

Binders [Tome of Magic] allow for a wide variety of characters, one of which is a mounted charger that can be played as a knightly character. Just don't pigeonhole yourself by accident since Binders are inherently flexible in what roles they can perform.

Binder handbook here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137)

Binder X/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5
Andras+Eligor+Chupoclops
Grants: Free Horse, Cavalry related feats, Smite and Pounce among other benefits.
Combine with the lance and other charging items/feats (mentioned above by Flickerdart) with Shocktrooper and Combat Brute for solid damage output.

[Person_Man]

Cleric/PrC is probably the simplest Tier 1 option.

Crusader or Warblade are your Tier 3 beatstick options.

Binder or Incarnate could also work. Binder is actually fairly competent at melee, and you wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of juggling spells. Incarnate's are ridiculously difficult to kill if you know what you're doing, can get decent bonuses to damage, and have an endless continuous supply of Necrocarnum Zombies (you can animate any 1 creature with hit die equal to your meldshaper level, at will), and thus an endless continuous supply of mounts.

If homebrew is on the table, check the Knight Champion in my signature.

[Red Fel]

I'm going to hop aboard the Cleric/ Ordained Champ/ Prestige Paladin/ Etc. bandwagon. Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308622) (shameless plug) for a great sample build.

Paladins in general may not be the most optimized class, but when it comes to "shining knight on a horse," they've definitely got swagger. The Paladin Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) offers a variety of Paladin-based options, including upgrades for your mount.

The thing I like about the Cleric entry (particularly the one listed above) is that it gives you access to Cleric casting, Paladin spells, and an emphasis on the more smite-y aspects of a Paladin. Note also that Prestige Paladin requires Mounted Combat as a prereq, so you've got that flavor built-in.

It's a shame your DM wouldn't allow Crusader, since apart from the mount, that's a pretty perfect class for a gallant knight-defender. Any idea why it was ruled out?

[Xerlith]

On this one I'm going to propose another way:

Crusader3/Cleric1/Ordained Champion3/Prestige Paladin3/Ordained champion+2/Crusader+10

You grab only 8th level maneuvers (meh), but cast as a 6-th level cleric. And have fun stuff to do with your Turn Undead.

Crusader3/Cleric1/Ordained Champ3/PrCPal2/RKV10/Crusader+1

gets a 9th level maneuver and has better casting. But you shouldn't be casting. you should be smashing things.

[Grod_The_Giant]

On this one I'm going to propose another way:
Solid builds, but...

Unfortunately, my DM is not allowing me to be a Crusader

[Xerlith]

Me stupido. :smallannoyed:

Jumping on the Cleric/Ordained Champ/Fist of Raziel bandwagon.
Cleric4/Ordained Champion5/FoR3/PrCPaladin1/FoR+7

[Red Fel]

Me stupido. :smallannoyed:

Jumping on the Cleric/Ordained Champ/Fist of Raziel bandwagon.
Cleric4/Ordained Champion5/FoR3/PrCPaladin1/FoR+7

Gosh, that looks familiar for some reason. :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

I am in a campaign with relatively high optimization.


Also, unfortunately, I was not able to pick up Spirit Lion when I created my Barbarian


my DM is not allowing me to be a Crusader

One of these things is not like the others...


Can you tell us why you call this campaign "high optimization"? What sort of builds and tactics do other players (and the DM) use?

[Xerlith]

Gosh, that looks familiar for some reason. :smallamused:

I wonder. :smalltongue:

To the OP - tell us your current build, maybe, just maybe, we'll be able to salvage it without actually forcing you to rebuild it from scratch.

A barbarian can go into Champion of Gwynharwyf and then into Fist of Raziel.

What alignment are you? What are your stats?

Also, seconding Slipperychicken's question.

In fact, playing a "knightly" character does not require - at all - having a "knightly" class. It helps, of course, but is far from necessary. A barbarian could be a good knight too, maybe with some multiclass to, say, fighter or marshall.

But without Tome of Battle (really? :smallsigh:) or any spellcasting you're going to be ridiculously weak.

So Pious Templar or Holy Liberator come to mind... :smallwink:

[Pinkcrusade]

Hey guys. Thanks again for all of the replies!

Clarification: the Barbarian and 'Knight' are two separate campaigns -- the reason I was not able to choose Spirit Lion was due to having no access to Unearthed Arcana (which we then had available to us two sessions later!), so I can most likely just retrain next time I level: what are the ramifications of this and how long does it take?

My DM for the second campaign doesn't want me to make a Divine class for some reason, so that is why I was not allowed to be one!

By 'highly optimized' I meant a lot of tier one classes, and if not they are heavily optimized -- I was thinking of going a pure summoner class, do any of you know how that would compare?


Thanks again!

[Kennisiou]

If you want a "knight"-like character but can't play Crusader and don't want to play knight, have you considered playing Halfling Outrider? There's a few HO builds that let you do some pretty crazy shenanigans like making your mount both a paladin mount and a druid animal companion, and the class has a lot of really good features.