Question on Archmage (3.5)

[Xerit]

I lurk here, and other optimization boards alot. I'm currently working on a Wizard build and I have a question about Archmage.

On first glance (to my understanding) the Spell-like Ability (SLA) High Arcana seems really really powerful to me. However reading around it seems like one of his least mentioned abilities. (Master of Shaping, Spellpower and Arcane Reach seem much more popular)

Now my situation might just be special (Focused Specialist Conjurer, so I have slots to throw around, slots that otherwise would be filled with sub-optimal level 8 and 9 conjuration spells), but can someone explain to me why any mage wouldn't make the trade of a 5th and 9th (or 8th) level slot for 2 casts per day (as SLA) of a 9th (or 8th) level spell?

As it stands my plan is to trade 4 of my 5th level spell slots, and 2 of each from 8th and 9th level for Maze (No SR, so now its just "timeout" 2/day), Polymorph Any Object (Utility/Debuff all day), Timestop (The one spell I do see mentioned as good for SLA), and Shapechange (Bypasses focus, always useful).

I'm just very confused why more people wouldn't do something like this (maybe not as extreme if you weren't focused specialists so as to not lose all your 5th level slots). It seems enormously powerful.

[Ortesk]

I lurk here, and other optimization boards alot. I'm currently working on a Wizard build and I have a question about Archmage.

On first glance (to my understanding) the Spell-like Ability (SLA) High Arcana seems really really powerful to me. However reading around it seems like one of his least mentioned abilities. (Master of Shaping, Spellpower and Arcane Reach seem much more popular)

Now my situation might just be special (Focused Specialist Conjurer, so I have slots to throw around, slots that otherwise would be filled with sub-optimal level 8 and 9 conjuration spells), but can someone explain to me why any mage wouldn't make the trade of a 5th and 9th (or 8th) level slot for 2 casts per day (as SLA) of a 9th (or 8th) level spell?

As it stands my plan is to trade 4 of my 5th level spell slots, and 2 of each from 8th and 9th level for Maze (No SR, so now its just "timeout" 2/day), Polymorph Any Object (Utility/Debuff all day), Timestop (The one spell I do see mentioned as good for SLA), and Shapechange (Bypasses focus, always useful).

I'm just very confused why more people wouldn't do something like this (maybe not as extreme if you weren't focused specialists so as to not lose all your 5th level slots). It seems enormously powerful.

I do it with spells im gonna cast anyways, I've done it with say time stop. But theres also way superior class's to take out there. And it binds you to ONE spell. So if you have SLA Time stop, but have no use for the spell, 9th level slot wasted

[Zanos]

The SLA High Arcana isn't bad, but it isn't fantastic. The most optimal use, obviously, is getting an extra cast of a 9th level spell you cast frequently. My favorite is Timestop. It does, however, permanently take up that slot, and there are days where you don't want to cast timestop, rare as they may be. It's lackluster compared to some of the other High Arcana, though. Arcane Reach, Mastery of Elements, and Mastery of Shaping all duplicate metamagic feats but can be applied spontaneously, are better than the actual feats in nearly every way, and don't cost a feat slot. Spell Power is just good, because +1 CL applies to everything, including people trying to dispel you, or checks to overcome spell resistance, etc.

Arcane Fire is garbage, obviously. Since Archmage is generally used to round out builds rather than a class you take all five levels of, the SLA High Arcana is last pick. I would take it if I planned to take four or five levels of Archmage.

[Emperor Tippy]

Every Archmage should grab Mastery of Shaping.
Every Archmage should grab Arcane Reach at least once.

That is two levels taken up.

If you do blasting then you want Mastery of the Elements.
If you do counterspelling then you want Mastery of Counterspelling.

That is three levels taken up.

Then comes Spell Power, for 4 levels taken up.

Which leaves one left for Spell-Like ability.

Can you see why it might end up dropped by the wayside?

Granted, if I go five levels of Archmage I tend to take it for Shapechange. But that is mostly just because it's a get out of jail free card that can't be taken away.

Although if your DM will let you take Supernatural Transformation then choose Wish and take ST.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Every Archmage should grab Mastery of Shaping.
Every Archmage should grab Arcane Reach at least once.

That is two levels taken up.

If you do blasting then you want Mastery of the Elements.
If you do counterspelling then you want Mastery of Counterspelling.

That is three levels taken up.

Then comes Spell Power, for 4 levels taken up.

Which leaves one left for Spell-Like ability.

Can you see why it might end up dropped by the wayside?

Granted, if I go five levels of Archmage I tend to take it for Shapechange. But that is mostly just because it's a get out of jail free card that can't be taken away.

Although if your DM will let you take Supernatural Transformation then choose Wish and take ST.

There's a problem with your logic, Tippy. What optimized wizard blasts or counterspells? :p Especially since any wizard who tries to blast should be filling out Incantatrix, so there ends up being very little room for more than the first two Archmage levels, which as you mentioned, are reserved.

[Emperor Tippy]

There's a problem with your logic, Tippy. What optimized wizard blasts or counterspells? :p Especially since any wizard who tries to blast should be filling out Incantatrix, so there ends up being very little room for more than the first two Archmage levels, which as you mentioned, are reserved.

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 4/ Mindbender 1 with Mastery of the Elements, Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach, and Spell Power is pretty much the best and most versatile blasting built around.

Counterspelling can be made quite powerful if you really invest in it.

[Xerit]

I can't get Incantatrix and i'm basing my build loosely on Treantmonk's guide to god wizards.

Current plan is:

Focused Specialist Conjurer 5/ Fatespinner 4/ Master Specialist 3 / Archmage 5 / Pragnostic Apostle 2... with one level I haven't figured out yet at 20.

I was too feat starved to get into IotSFV and Incantatrix is from a setting book and we aren't using those. (Complete Series, UA, Phb 1&2, DMG, Spell Compendium, Dungeonscape, BoVD and BoED )

I didn't like Mage of the Arcane Order, so I replaced those levels with Fatespinner and Pragnostic Apostle (which because I didn't have to blow a feat on Cooperative Spell gets me into Sculpt that much earlier).

I thought about Arcane Reach but couldn't find any spells I'd really want to use with it (Necro/Ench/Evoc are prohibited schools), master of elements is a blaster thing which I'm most definitely not. I might have to look at spellpower again (maybe give up PaO), but that would leave me with another 8th level conjuration only spell slot i'd have to find a way to fill, and there doesn't seem to be much good for conjuration at 8th and 9th level. (Already will have 1 conjuration only slot per level i'll have to fill even after SLA'ing all this stuff)

That said it seems like SLA should still be higher rated than something like Mastery of Elements. If you're a blaster wouldn't you already have that effect at that level through something like Energy Substitution? And even on a blaster 2 of your best spells automatically bypassing SR has gotta be worth more than a more broadly applied energy substitution. I mean my mouth fell open a bit when I realized the SLA would turn Maze into a completely unavoidable CC that works on just about anything and just locks them down completely.

EDIT: Oh and for people who aren't like specialist evocators wouldn't you just use something like Shadow Evocation to get the Master of Elements effect, just even more versatile?

[Captnq]

Hey, I just finished my Rough Draft of The Complete List of Official 3.0/3.5 Spellcasters, including what spell lists they grant you, how many bonus levels, blah blah blah. It's over HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).

I was going to work on my Ultimate Guide of Mystic Rangers and I needed to get it all the spellcasting PrCs in one place for ease of reference.

I'm curious as to if it would be any help.

[Saidoro]

Every Archmage should grab Mastery of Shaping.
Every Archmage should grab Arcane Reach at least once.

Unless they're a Wu Jen Incantatrix. Then it's Spell-Like ability all the way.

[Carth]

If I'm a Wu Jen, I'd consider the Complete Arcane version of innate spell with magic missile for an SLA instead. :smallbiggrin:

[Saidoro]

No reason you can't have both.

[Corlindale]

My Warmage 16/Archmage 4 picked Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements and Arcane Power before finally getting the spell-like ability by level 20 - mostly because there wasn't anything else left that was good.

It gives you a little more oomph but at the cost of versatility - usually a decent enough tradeoff, but less exciting than many of the other features. Shaping in particular was a godsend - since my GM disallowed Sculpt Spell my Warmage had been waiting for that particular power all throughout the campaign.