Question about Lich

[Deca4531]

First off, the Phylactery, can a person create one and store their soul without becoming a lich? or dose the act of moving your soul turn you into an undead. i feel like it may be possible to make more use of this little object.

Second, is it possible to become a Vampire Lich? im not sure if you loose your soul when you are turned into a vamp and if not i dont see a reason why your couldnt.

[Nettlekid]

First off, the Phylactery, can a person create one and store their soul without becoming a lich? or dose the act of moving your soul turn you into an undead. i feel like it may be possible to make more use of this little object.

Second, is it possible to become a Vampire Lich? im not sure if you loose your soul when you are turned into a vamp and if not i dont see a reason why your couldnt.

I believe the answer to both of your questions is no. You can't be a living creature and remove your soul. The act of placing the soul into the Phylactery is part of the process of dying and rising as a Lich.

As for the Vampire, I don't think you can be an Undead and turn into an Undead. Only humanoids (and dragons in a special thing) can become Liches, and Undead are not Humanoid.

[Annos]

Mind Flayers can become liches too.

[Emperor Tippy]

Cast Hide Life.

It makes you a poor man's Phylactery.

---
As for multiple Phylactery's, Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery (Champions of Ruin) is an Epic spell that does just that.

[Fax Celestis]

Creating A Vampire

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).


Creating A Lich

"Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.

Note how neither requires "living". However, they both only can be applied to 'humanoid' creatures, which in this case refers to the type. A vampire is Undead, not Humanoid, and as such is an invalid target for the lich template (and vice versa).

[Deca4531]

Cast Hide Life.

It makes you a poor man's Phylactery.

---
As for multiple Phylactery's, Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery (Champions of Ruin) is an Epic spell that does just that.

lol omg its a horkrux. anyway, is there anything about if undead have a soul or not, or if there is a way to keep it when becoming undead? the way i see it all a lich is is something with its soul contained outseide its body, so if a vamp can keep its soul then put it in a Phylactery it could become a vamp lich

[Beige Dragon]

It seems kind of not-possible to be a vampire lich. Vampires blood drinking sates a physical need, if you have no organs to speak off, you probably couldn't do that, just as you cant really drink or eat or relieve yourself.

[Deca4531]

It seems kind of not-possible to be a vampire lich. Vampires blood drinking sates a physical need, if you have no organs to speak off, you probably couldn't do that, just as you cant really drink or eat or relieve yourself.

well revive-undead (http://dndtools.eu/spells/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/revive-undead--1497/) leads me to think that undead do have a soul, so if you became a vamp you would still have a soul to be able to place it into the thingy. so even if you were destroyed as a vamp you could be revived in a couple weeks. kinda like a continues Revive Undead spell

[Nettlekid]

lol omg its a horkrux. anyway, is there anything about if undead have a soul or not, or if there is a way to keep it when becoming undead? the way i see it all a lich is is something with its soul contained outseide its body, so if a vamp can keep its soul then put it in a Phylactery it could become a vamp lich

*Horcrux. And the quality of an Undead creature's soul varies between creature to creature. Obviously Liches have souls, just kept separate. Ghosts ARE souls. But there are numerous sources which suggest that Vampires don't have souls. Tome of Battle, for example, remarks on the Shadow Sun Ninja turning into a Vampire and its soul waiting to be rescued out of Hell.

EDIT: Revive Undead is actually a better argument against them having souls. Note that it states "animating spirit" instead of "soul." An Undead's animating spirit is that which gives it motion. As Redcloak pointed out, an Undead is basically flesh and bone glued together by negative energy. If the soul returns to the body, that's part of how you bring the Undead back to actual life.

[Deca4531]

*Horcrux. And the quality of an Undead creature's soul varies between creature to creature. Obviously Liches have souls, just kept separate. Ghosts ARE souls. But there are numerous sources which suggest that Vampires don't have souls. Tome of Battle, for example, remarks on the Shadow Sun Ninja turning into a Vampire and its soul waiting to be rescued out of Hell.

EDIT: Revive Undead is actually a better argument against them having souls. Note that it states "animating spirit" instead of "soul." An Undead's animating spirit is that which gives it motion. As Redcloak pointed out, an Undead is basically flesh and bone glued together by negative energy. If the soul returns to the body, that's part of how you bring the Undead back to actual life.

Is there a difforance between a spirit and soul listed somewhere?

[Nettlekid]

Is there a difforance between a spirit and soul listed somewhere?

Generally soul is the cardinal essence and nature of the creature. A spirit has many forms, most of which are listed in the Spirit Shaman class features, but could potentially be vague enough to include even Elementals which power the devices built by the Gnomes of Zilargo. Because that's just what it is: An animating spirit. It provides locomotion and animation, but is not the fundamental essence of the creature. Were you to put a Vampire's ANIMATING spirit into a Phylactery, then it stands to reason that the Vampire would become inanimate. So bad choice on your part.

[The Viscount]

Undead in fact do have a soul, a fact that I've only ever seen confirmed in the entry for magic jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) which says
Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.

It is very vague what goes in the phylactery, but it's said to be "life force." What that actually means, I have no idea. A possible interpretation is that the phylactery doesn't normally hold anything, it simply has spells on it so that it automatically calls in the soul or life force of the lich when destroyed.

[Clistenes]

Cast Hide Life.

It makes you a poor man's Phylactery.


Once the spell takes effect, you can no longer be killed by ordinary means: If damage or a spell effect would normally render you disabled, dying, or dead, you ignore the usual effects.
Instead, you are staggered (only able to take partial actions).
While this spell is in effect, if you would otherwise be disabled or dying, you do not lose hit points for taking actions or having a negative hit point total.
Healing does not automatically return you to 0 hit points but simply adjusts your current total upward.
If you would otherwise be dead, you cannot benefit from healing and simply fall down dead if the spell is ended.
If the hidden body part is ever destroyed, the spell is broken and your life force returns to your body if you would not otherwise be dead.

So...if you go down to -10 hp, you can no longer be healed? You remain in that half-dead state, staggering around, until somebody manages to end the spell?

[TuggyNE]

So...if you go down to -10 hp, you can no longer be healed? You remain in that half-dead state, staggering around, until somebody manages to end the spell?

Nah, it's only if you'd otherwise be dead when the spell ends, if it ends. The conditional clause is confusing, but there's a perfectly workable reading there.

[Deca4531]

the only problem is that hide life is a 9th lv spell, so lv 17 for a wizard, where as lich required lv 11 and gives you a few bonuses as well.

its a good way to keep from dieing at high level but it wont make you immortal. you cant be "killed" but you can still die from old age.

[RochtheCrusher]

the only problem is that hide life is a 9th lv spell, so lv 17 for a wizard, where as lich required lv 11 and gives you a few bonuses as well.

its a good way to keep from dieing at high level but it wont make you immortal. you cant be "killed" but you can still die from old age.

On the other hand, you won't be a lich. So, hopefully, people who you meet in polite company are less likely to stab you before saying hello. :-P

Everything has a price, folks.

[Clistenes]

What about this:

1.-Work in secret from the beginning. Use Mind Blank, Mage Sanctum, everything you can.

2.-Get the Blood Silthillar Graft that grants Fast Healing 2 and the Heart Silthillar Graft that grants 4d8+20 of self-healing 1/day. That will be useful if you are skewered and left for dead. You can find them in the Lords of Madness book.

3.-Create a custom wondrous item that is similar to the Eye of Horus, but with the properties of a Ring of Regeneration and a Ring of Sustenance and doesn't occupy a body slot. It would grant you 1 point of healing per hour plus five points of subdual damage per minute and regenerates limbs, and you would never starvate.

It would cost 90,000 gp (as a Ring of Regeneration), plus 1'5*2,500 = 3,750 gp (as a Ring of Sustenance) plus 720 gp for its property of becoming a tattoo that can't be removed while you are alive, and double the price because it doesn't occupy a body slot, total price: 188,940 gp.

Put it under your tongue so nobody sees it.

4.-With the help of a Simulacrum, create a small magical tattoo on your palate that occupies your head's magic item slot. It's magical properties don't matter, since it will soon lose all its magical properties forever.

5.-Have your Simulacrum use a scroll to cast Kissed by the Ages (Dragon Magazine #354) on the magical tattoo on your palate.

Afterwards, destroy the Simulacrum.

6.-From now on, cast Nystul's Magical Aura on your mouth's tattoos every few days (you may need to take the Still Spell feat, or research a version of the spell that doesnt require verbal components).

7.-Cast Hide Life on your smallest toe. Remove the toe and grow a new one.

8.-Cast Flesh to Stone on the severed toe.

9.-Use Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn the petrified toe into a chunk of Obdurium that looks just like a regular sea pebble. If your DM says that Obdurium is too expensive and you can't do it, then fine, use a non-precious corundum, which has hardness 9 in the Mohs scale.

10.-Enchant the pebble so it is almost unbreakable (Damage Reduction 15/+5, and Hardness 20, and 40 hp/inch and Resistance 20 to all kinds of energy, at least), so it regenerates 1 point of damage per round, and so it has a permanent Nystul's Magical Aura that conceals the magic and makes it appear to divinations as a regular pebble.

If your DM doesn't allow you to enchant your soul pebble, then fine, encase it with a layer of glass, and enchant said layer of glass.

11.-Throw the pebble into the Silver Sea of Lunia, in Mount Celestia. Even if somebody managed to discover what you were doing despite using Mind Blank and Mage's Sanctum at all times, good luck finding it among all the millions of pebbles of the infinite Sea of Lunia.

Now you are effectively immortal, and can't be killed, unless some "Save or Suck" spells and effects are used against you. You should probably invest in Proof Against Transmutation Soulfire +1 Thistledown Armor, or at least a Scarab of Protection.

Drawback: If you are decapitated, I'm not sure you will be able to regenerate your whole body, since a Ring of Regeneration regrows limbs, but it doesn't mention other organs...you could spend centuries or millenia as a severed head. It would be a good idea to purchase or craft a Collar of Tusmit.

You will need protection against disease and poison, or you could find yourself alive but immobilized due to ability damage.

Protection against suffocation would be nice too, or you could end forever alive but unconscious if somebody drowns or buries you alive.

Also, if somebody learns about what you did, it can cut the tattoo from your palate and you would start to age normally again.

[John Longarrow]

Deca4531

As a player, the answer from your DM should be "NO" unless they have house ruled something.

If you are the DM, the answer should be "NO" unless YOU house rule it.

By the rules you should not be able to do so, but DM's do have leeway in changing things to tell the story they wish.

[Scumbaggery]

No, to both questions.

Each one requires you to be alive to become the other. Lich also requires you to have a caster level of 11 anyway, and on top of the 120,000 gold required to make the phylactery, the resources used in the ritual include your life in a ritual suicide.

If you were to be bitten by a vampire first, then do your Lich ritual, you'd become Undead and negate the transformation due to the new template.

Also, that's like a LA +12 anyway even if you could.

[lightningcat]

There is a reason that both of them have high LA, but I've used a Vampiric Lich as the BBEG for an epic game. But once you get to near epic or epic the rules are made to be bent. The ritual suicide involved being killed by a vampire, and there being a Wish spell involved. Additionally, the vampire used to turn the character was killed during the time he needed to raise.

On the flip side, if a player ever wanted to do this with a character, same requirements with a chance of utter destruction as things went wrong. No toy for NPCs that the PCs can't have too. But this is most definitely a personal ruling and only because I opened that can of worms myself.
But I only allow a few people to play evil character as most who want to are ... not conducive to group play.

Although in Pathfinder a Mythic Lich might be able to have multiple phylacteries, but I haven't read up on them.

[hamishspence]

Undead in fact do have a soul, a fact that I've only ever seen confirmed in the entry for magic jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) which says

It is very vague what goes in the phylactery, but it's said to be "life force." What that actually means, I have no idea. A possible interpretation is that the phylactery doesn't normally hold anything, it simply has spells on it so that it automatically calls in the soul or life force of the lich when destroyed.

This would fit with Complete Divine- which says that liches trap their souls in skeletal bodies.

It would also fit with Order of the Stick- Start of Darkness- in which it's stated that smashing the phylactery while the lich is still in being would do no harm to the lich- since there's nothing in the phylactery at the time.

[Bruenin]

What about this:

1.-Work in secret from the beginning. Use Mind Blank, Mage Sanctum, everything you can.

2.-Get the Blood Silthillar Graft that grants Fast Healing 2 and the Heart Silthillar Graft that grants 4d8+20 of self-healing 1/day. That will be useful if you are skewered and left for dead. You can find them in the Lords of Madness book.

3.-Create a custom wondrous item that is similar to the Eye of Horus, but with the properties of a Ring of Regeneration and a Ring of Sustenance and doesn't occupy a body slot. It would grant you 1 point of healing per hour plus five points of subdual damage per minute and regenerates limbs, and you would never starvate.

It would cost 90,000 gp (as a Ring of Regeneration), plus 1'5*2,500 = 3,750 gp (as a Ring of Sustenance) plus 720 gp for its property of becoming a tattoo that can't be removed while you are alive, and double the price because it doesn't occupy a body slot, total price: 188,940 gp.

Put it under your tongue so nobody sees it.

4.-With the help of a Simulacrum, create a small magical tattoo on your palate that occupies your head's magic item slot. It's magical properties don't matter, since it will soon lose all its magical properties forever.

5.-Have your Simulacrum use a scroll to cast Kissed by the Ages (Dragon Magazine #354) on the magical tattoo on your palate.

Afterwards, destroy the Simulacrum.

6.-From now on, cast Nystul's Magical Aura on your mouth's tattoos every few days (you may need to take the Still Spell feat, or research a version of the spell that doesnt require verbal components).

7.-Cast Hide Life on your smallest toe. Remove the toe and grow a new one.

8.-Cast Flesh to Stone on the severed toe.

9.-Use Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn the petrified toe into a chunk of Obdurium that looks just like a regular sea pebble. If your DM says that Obdurium is too expensive and you can't do it, then fine, use a non-precious corundum, which has hardness 9 in the Mohs scale.

10.-Enchant the pebble so it is almost unbreakable (Damage Reduction 15/+5, and Hardness 20, and 40 hp/inch and Resistance 20 to all kinds of energy, at least), so it regenerates 1 point of damage per round, and so it has a permanent Nystul's Magical Aura that conceals the magic and makes it appear to divinations as a regular pebble.

If your DM doesn't allow you to enchant your soul pebble, then fine, encase it with a layer of glass, and enchant said layer of glass.

11.-Throw the pebble into the Silver Sea of Lunia, in Mount Celestia. Even if somebody managed to discover what you were doing despite using Mind Blank and Mage's Sanctum at all times, good luck finding it among all the millions of pebbles of the infinite Sea of Lunia.

Now you are effectively immortal, and can't be killed, unless some "Save or Suck" spells and effects are used against you. You should probably invest in Proof Against Transmutation Soulfire +1 Thistledown Armor, or at least a Scarab of Protection.

Drawback: If you are decapitated, I'm not sure you will be able to regenerate your whole body, since a Ring of Regeneration regrows limbs, but it doesn't mention other organs...you could spend centuries or millenia as a severed head. It would be a good idea to purchase or craft a Collar of Tusmit.

Also, if somebody learns about what you did, it can cut the tattoo from your palate and you would start to age normally again.

Where's the rules for enchanting resistances and damage reduction onto an item? I would think if you had a spell that gave fire reduction and you enchanted an item with it, the item would give the holder or wearer the benefit and not the item only.

Where are the tattoo rules also? I keep looking but I can't find them.

I'd appreciate it, since i'm trying to learn about crafting magic items and this all looks really neat.

[Clistenes]

Where's the rules for enchanting resistances and damage reduction onto an item? I would think if you had a spell that gave fire reduction and you enchanted an item with it, the item would give the holder or wearer the benefit and not the item only.

I don't think an item that grants itself bonuses should be more expensive than one that grants those to its holder. I would use the canon rules for crafting items that grant those bonuses as permanent effects.


Where are the tattoo rules also? I keep looking but I can't find them.

I'd appreciate it, since i'm trying to learn about crafting magic items and this all looks really neat.

The Eye of Horus comes from Dragon Magazine #325 pag 75. In addition to its other magical properties, it becomes a tattoo when pressed against your face (it occupies the face slot) and can be removed only with your consent or with your death. I have checked its price and calculated that the property of becoming a tattoo costs only 750 gp.

The Eye of Horus occupies the face slot, but you can make a version that doesn't fill any slot doubling its price.

The Enchant Tattoo feat from Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook allows you to craft a tattoo version of any magical item for the same price as the non-tattoo version. They occupy body slots, but you can avoid that doubling their price.

With your DM's permission, you can also create enchanted tattoos crafting them as Wondrous Items (using the Craft Wondrous Item feat) that cost double but doesn't fill a body slot.

Inscribe Magical Tattoo from Scarred Land's Relics & Rituals, allows you to create magical tattoos that grant you the power to cast one spell per day.

The Skincaster feat from Dragon Magazine #359 allows you to use your own skin as spellbook.

On the subject of the pseudo-lich, it would be a good idea to seek protection against suffocation, poison and disease too, to avoid getting immobilized due to ability damage or lack of oxygen.