Astral Construct

[Valaroma]

I was actually wondering whether Astral construct power is any good at mid and high levels (in a campaign 12-20)?

Thank you

[Hida Reju]

Short Answer: Yes if you need a configurable tank/DD on the fly and don't mind paperwork.

Long answer depends on if you are a Psion (Shaper) or a Wilder? Or if the GM is using the sort of annoying fake Errata nerf of Astral Construct.

Astral Construct has some of the most potential of any power due to its versatility. You can literally give your creation almost any power it needs on the fly.

Flight, Check
Melee power Check
Ability to use almost any combat maneuver and be decent at it, check
Energy resistance of choice check
Swim check
Blindsight, check
Pounce Check
At high end you can even give it Permanent invisibility

Really that power Plus Boost Construct to get the extra menu choice are all you really need to make it viable at all levels.

If you take Overchannel things just get silly cool since you can get a level increase faster than normal. Same with Wilder and Surging the construct for early extra power.

Now for the major cons. Book keeping

If you don't want your GM to strangle you there is one important thing to do. Flesh out every major build you want to ever use on your constructs and do a write up stat block for it to show the GM and have ready to use. This saves valuable time.

[Psyren]

Yes, it's useful all the way up. Construct immunities and size only get more relevant as you gain levels.

[Zombulian]

Ardent with the Creation mantle works well for this. Yea, Astral Constructs work forever and a day.

[Rubik]

Now for the major cons. Book keeping

If you don't want your GM to strangle you there is one important thing to do. Flesh out every major build you want to ever use on your constructs and do a write up stat block for it to show the GM and have ready to use. This saves valuable time.This helps. (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7XkmnK-DY9YRkU5SVhCNWZqS0U/edit?usp=sharing) Try downloading it and running it in MS Excel.

Just make sure you keep the macros enabled.

Also, The constructor PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is considered one of the best psionic prestige classes for a reason.

[LordBlades]

Also, The constructor PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is considered one of the best psionic prestige classes for a reason.

That reason might equally well be 'doesn't cripple your msifesting progression for crap benefits'. 90% of psionic PrCs are horrible.

That being said, Astral Constructs are quite good IMO (Rougly on par with SNA line of spells). They fall behind Summon Monster at high levels because they lack the abundance of SLAs.

[Psyren]

90% of psionic PrCs are horrible.

The ones in the psionic books, sure. But the Mind's Eye ones and psionic adaptations of magical PrCs are pretty good, and there are a handful of nice ones scattered in the completes and setting books as well. I would personally place it more like 50/50.

For every Flayerspawn Psychic and Storm Disciple, we have a Psychokinetic Champion and Psionic Trickster to balance it out.

[(Un)Inspired]

Long answer depends on if you are a Psion (Shaper) or a Wilder? Or if the GM is using the sort of annoying fake Errata nerf of Astral Construct.


Do you mind if I ask what the fake errata nerf is? I'm unfamiliar with it.

[Werephilosopher]

I made an optimized astral constructor build a while ago, this prompted me to go through all the builds I've made but never used. Ah, fun. :smallsmile:

Anywho... I'd recommend Shaper 10 + Constructor 9 + a level of something else. My build is Rogue 1/Shaper 5/Constructor 9/Shaper 5. That rogue level at level one gives a nice boost of skill points. Only 1d6 Sneak Attack for flanking with your construct, but I opted for the ACF to take a free fighter bonus feat instead. My character's style was forming constructs that were hollow, around himself- kindof like a living suit of armor. Get feats to shoot powers through your construct, and you're set there, if that's how you want to go- to get to you, enemies have to kill your construct first, and you can then just resummon it!

Ditto what Rubik said- Constructor is great. In fact, there are a few more Mind's Eye articles with goodies for astral constructors. The Personal Construct ACF costs the Shaper's 5th-level feat, but you get to manifest your construct as if quickened. It has to be the same one every time, but who cares? You can always summon different constructs without quickening, and you can change the personal construct every time you level up. This also means you don't need to take the last level of Constructor.

Augment Construction is 3.0, but it should work fine in 3.5. +1 hp/HD, and +1 competence to attack and damage rolls for all your astral constructs. Advanced Construction might be a bit trickier to convert, but I think it'll work too.

Linky linkies:
Personal Construct ACF- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a
Constructor PrC- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b
Augment Construction feat- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020426b
Advanced Construction feat, items- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c
More Advanced Construction- www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a

I hope this helps! :smallsmile:

Stuff I forgot!: If you're Kalashtar, you can use implanted quori shards (ECS 264). What you want are Power Link shards (MoE 115), which, 3/day, augment one of your powers by 2... and can go ABOVE the level cap for power points spent on a single power... and stack with other Power Link shards. Basically, you can shape constructs far more powerful than the norm for your level. Unfortunately they all take the form of a bipedal cheetah with shades, because using this trick is dangerously cheesy.

[Werephilosopher]

Do you mind if I ask what the fake errata nerf is? I'm unfamiliar with it.

Complete Psionic made it so only one construct could be manifested at a time. Without the nerf, the power's spammable.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ah I see. What a bizarre limitation.

[Rubik]

Complete Psionic made it so only one construct could be manifested at a time. Without the nerf, the power's spammable.Stupidly, this was to prevent the wilder in the group the author in question was running from creating abnormally high level constructs using wild surge...

...somehow.

[(Un)Inspired]

Stupidly, this was to prevent the wilder in the group the author in question was running from creating abnormally high level constructs using wild surge...

...somehow.

Thanks WOTC. Clearly the all-powerful wilder needed to be stopped before he overtook the poor little psion and erudite

[Werephilosopher]

Ah I see. What a bizarre limitation.


Stupidly, this was to prevent the wilder in the group the author in question was running from creating abnormally high level constructs using wild surge...

...somehow.

Do you recall how you found that out, Rubik? I was under the impression it was so that they could stuff in another prestige class, with a capstone of shaping two astral constructs- something that is now impossible to do otherwise, thanks to that book. But what you say sounds fascinating, and I'd like to read up more on it.


Thanks WOTC. Clearly the all-powerful wilder needed to be stopped before he overtook the poor little psion and erudite

And erudite wasn't even a class yet, it appeared in... oh wait, that very book! Jeez WotC. :smallmad:

[Psyren]

Bruce sometimes makes odd rules. Case in point, 3.0 Psionics.

But he gave us XPH and Hyperconscious so I'm willing to give him a pass.

Note that Pathfinder rolled back the nerf - Jeremy saw it as unnecessary.

[SciChronic]

Question regarding astral construct... if i expend focus for midnight augmentation and summon a personal construct expending a second focus through psicrystal containment, is it possible to summon quickened 9th level constructs much earlier than you should be? the augment cost would be 1, so by ML 10 (read: ML8 w/ overchannel) you would be able to summon a 9th level construct for 9 Power Points. Or am i doing something wrong?

also, can you take boost construct more than once? I'm making a theoretical build, but cant find any useful feats past level 9 or 12 (depending on race).

current feats: Boost Construct, overchannel, Talented, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, and Midnight Augmentation

[olentu]

And erudite wasn't even a class yet, it appeared in... oh wait, that very book! Jeez WotC. :smallmad:

It was printed in dragon 319 I think. Maybe 318, somewhere around there anyway.

[Ansem]

Its essentially a summon monster which never sucks and scales with you.
Ability choices for your construct are awesome and always useful. (Not sure what to choose? just add power attack then).

Whats not to like?

[Psyren]

Question regarding astral construct... if i expend focus for midnight augmentation and summon a personal construct expending a second focus through psicrystal containment, is it possible to summon quickened 9th level constructs much earlier than you should be? the augment cost would be 1, so by ML 10 (read: ML8 w/ overchannel) you would be able to summon a 9th level construct for 9 Power Points. Or am i doing something wrong?

This depends entirely on how your DM interprets Midnight Augmentation to work. The saner reading is that it applies to the total augmentation cost, while the more powerful reading is that it applies to each augmentation. I personally go with the former as it's still good without being broken. MoI is a notoriously poorly-edited book.



also, can you take boost construct more than once? I'm making a theoretical build, but cant find any useful feats past level 9 or 12 (depending on race).

You can only take a given feat once unless otherwise specified.

[bot]

....Or if the GM is using the sort of annoying fake Errata nerf of Astral Construct. ...

Fixed that for you.

[Psyren]

Fixed that for you.

Well, that brings up an interesting question. If you have to pay for a book to get the errata, is it really errata? Not every group has CPsi after all, but all of them have XPH since it's OGL.

[Vaz]

Eh, I find it speeds up combats; so much so that I'm considering applying the similar to other Summoners/Animal Companion type characters. It is annoying, yes, to be limited, but I'd rather everyone else got an equal chance to shine with their Wild Cohort, rather than having 5 turns worth of summoning D3+1 Dire Wolves.

However, that's another bit of homebrew; it's more to even the playing field to streamline combat; if I didn't enforce the CPsi restriction to Magic, I wouldn't apply it to Psionics either.

One thing I'm not sure of; do the forms of the CPsi new AC's also gain new Astral Construct Menu abilities?

[Psyren]

One thing I'm not sure of; do the forms of the CPsi new AC's also gain new Astral Construct Menu abilities?

You mean the Ectopic Forms? It's really not clear. I personally allow it since you're blowing a feat on each one.

[Aharon]

You mean the Ectopic Forms? It's really not clear. I personally allow it since you're blowing a feat on each one.

AFAIK, the intention was to nerf ACs so you have less customizability. That would be RAI.

RAW:
The feat reads:

Special: You can gain Ectopic Form multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new form or astral construct. You can only apply one of the following feats to each astral construct you create. When you use this feat, refer to the preconstructed astral constructs of particular kinds on pages 121-128.

Those preconstructed constructs lack any information about menu choices, but on page 120, we read the following:.


Basic Astral Constructs
The statistics blocks for standard constructs, minus their menu choices as shown on page 185 in Expanded Psionics Handbook, are given below for ease of reference. The various Ectopic Form constructs are presented following the basic astral constructs. Their statistics blocks are truncated so hat they provide only the characteristics that are different from, or in addition to, those of a basic astral construct of a given level.

So the Ectopic Forms only lack the information about menu choices because they were left out for ease of reference. There is no explicit information that they don't get them, which would be neccessary if they didn't, because all differences are explicitly provided in the truncated statistics blocks. As there is no rule in the book that says Basic Astral Constructs don't get any menu choices, it follows that Ectopic forms do get menu choices.

[Psyren]

Yes, exactly. I agree the intent was probably that the forms should be locked down "pre-mades" but if that was what they wanted, they did a poor job editing that part of the book (among many others.)

[Phelix-Mu]

A good option is to allow each instance of Ectopic Form (or a similar vanilla Astral Construct feat) to allow the PC to have an additional construct active at the same time (provided it is of the kind matching the feat taken). If this is too aggressive, add in a level cap mechanic for the second construct (like the ML is only equal to ML/2 for the second construct, limiting the augmentation possible).

I personally find that astral constructs are pretty powerful to allow multiple summoning, but in a low-to-mid op game, there probably isn't a problem with allowing it. At higher op levels, summoners of all stripes can really slow things down a lot, not to mention power through entire encounters all by themselves.

And ditto on the Complete Psionic rage. That book is a morass of poor editing, poor design, and wildly uneven power levels. Which was very disappointing, because several of the other late Completes were completely the opposite (hehe, pun intended). Complete Champion and Complete Scoundrel were absolute gems, and Complete Mage also had some priceless material.

[Verence]

In 3.5ed 9-level Astral Constructs can grapple a balor to death (if you somehow block his Teleport and Dispel SLAs). Almost any monster can be easily defeated because of their extremely high grapple modifier at mid and high levels. In PF their grapple was nerfed, but they're still good.
Also, constructs can block the passage, distract enemies, perform some short utility tasks and so on. Good power.

[Phelix-Mu]

If the DM permits the aforementioned Constructor PrC from the web article (an excellent PrC, I agree with all of the above on it), and maybe some Words of Creation cheese, then you can really end up with some crazy shenanigans at higher levels. Even without needing Persist Power from Hyperconscious (or a ret-conned version from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, which previous discussions have concluded is not compatible with the 3.5 psionics). Extended astral constructs that last for 4min/level? Sounds nice. Servant constructs that last for almost two days? Excellent, Jimmy.

Now, just have to figure out how to store them in quintessence and sell your DM on one of the various ways to secure them in an extradimensional space. Freeze-dried astral constructs? Sounds like the beginning of an awesome story to me.:smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Words of Creation cheese for non-bards? Brilliant!

[Psyren]

Not to rain on the parade, but transparency doesn't extend to feats...

[Phelix-Mu]

I suppose it is up to a DM, then. The Words of Creation feat actually doesn't mention spells or whatever. It just grants the power to use the words. The rules for the words specify Conjuration(creation) spells, but I see no real reason why transparency wouldn't be in effect. I suppose it was a houserule when I let a player combine the two, but psionics is so badly neglected outside of the two books that mainly feature it, that I really can't say that generous interpretation of transparency smashes the game.

But the RAW does say spells. The fluff is all about creating stuff, and I guess I just let it fly. Hehe. DM'S PURVIEW ROCKS.

[Emperor Tippy]

(or a ret-conned version from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, which previous discussions have concluded is not compatible with the 3.5 psionics).

It's perfectly compatible and RAW legal.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's perfectly compatible and RAW legal.

A previous discussion with Psyren, IIRC, concluded that the EPH supercedes and replaces rules for psionics from the original 3.0 system. I don't wish to speak for Psyren, but I seem to remember that the issue for me was decided by a quote from the intro to EPH that seemed to indicate that the new book replaced the old one. Thus, it seemed to me an example that went against the general acceptability of 3.0 material that wasn't explicitly rewritten for 3.5.

I could totally be misremembering though, and I'm sure someone will be along to clarify the matter shortly.:smallwink:

[Psyren]

It's perfectly compatible and RAW legal.

Is it? When I asked where this is stated, the only source people were able to turn up was this update page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) that lists where various feats and PrCs from 3.0 can be found in 3.5. Not only does it list a bunch simply as "not yet revised," it omits the psionics handbook entirely.

[olentu]

A previous discussion with Psyren, IIRC, concluded that the EPH supercedes and replaces rules for psionics from the original 3.0 system. I don't wish to speak for Psyren, but I seem to remember that the issue for me was decided by a quote from the intro to EPH that seemed to indicate that the new book replaced the old one. Thus, it seemed to me an example that went against the general acceptability of 3.0 material that wasn't explicitly rewritten for 3.5.

I could totally be misremembering though, and I'm sure someone will be along to clarify the matter shortly.:smallwink:

I believe the section is "a completely expanded, revised, and updated version of the Psionics Handbook."

[Emperor Tippy]

Is it? When I asked where this is stated, the only source people were able to turn up was this update page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) that lists where various feats and PrCs from 3.0 can be found in 3.5. Not only does it list a bunch simply as "not yet revised," it omits the psionics handbook entirely.

Player Handbook page 4

"If this is your first experience with D&D, we welcome you to a wonderful world of adventure and imagination. If you used the prior version of
this book, rest assured that this revision is a testament to our dedication
to continuous product improvement. We’ve updated errata, clarified
rules, and made the game even better than it was. But also rest assured
that this is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game.
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments."

Check Errata rules: Primary Sources, in any conflict in regards to PC abilities the Players Handbook is the overriding source.

The PHB says that all existing products can be used with D&D 3.5, that includes Persistent Power.

The exception to that is when a newer source overrides an older source and the newer source is not the PHB, DMG, MM, or errata.

Since no Persistent Power feat was printed in a newer source than the Psionics Handbook and no newer source explicitly states that Persistent Power no longer exists, it is RAW legal to use in 3.5.

[Psyren]

Player Handbook page 4

"If this is your first experience with D&D, we welcome you to a wonderful world of adventure and imagination. If you used the prior version of
this book, rest assured that this revision is a testament to our dedication
to continuous product improvement. We’ve updated errata, clarified
rules, and made the game even better than it was. But also rest assured
that this is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game.
This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products
can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments."

I'm aware of that passage, specifically the part about minor adjustments. This means that every bit of unupdated 3.0 material does have to be changed to be used. And because there is no definition of what constitutes "minor," the DM has to decide what exactly those changes entail.

[olentu]

Like all 3.0 material certain minor adjustments are necessary for it to be used. It would seem that the 3.5 psionics handbook gives those adjustments.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm aware of that passage, specifically the part about minor adjustments. This means that every bit of unupdated 3.0 material does have to be changed to be used. And because there is no definition of what constitutes "minor," the DM has to decide what exactly those changes entail.

The "minor adjustments" would actually be; must expend Psionic Focus to use and "cost is reduced from +8 PP to +6 PP".

But ignoring that, it's still a RAW legal feat in 3.5. Also, the passage doesn't say that everything in a source needs minor adjustment, just the product as a whole (for example, the skills that no longer exist or DR/+X becoming DR/Magic).

[Psyren]

Like all 3.0 material certain minor adjustments are necessary for it to be used. It would seem that the 3.5 psionics handbook gives those adjustments.

I agree, however they appear to be discussing a feat that didn't make it to the XPH.

[olentu]

I agree, however they appear to be discussing a feat that didn't make it to the XPH.

While it may not have made it in, the feat was however updated. Since the 3.5 psionics handbook is a completely updated version of the psionics handbook there can be no part of the 3.0 psionics handbook that was not updated or the 3.5 version would not be completely updated. So I must conclude that the feat was updated to have no name, no entry, no text at all.

[Psyren]

While it may not have made it in, the feat was however updated. Since the 3.5 psionics handbook is a completely updated version of the psionics handbook there can be no part of the 3.0 psionics handbook that was not updated or the 3.5 version would not be completely updated. So I must conclude that the feat was updated to have no name, no entry, no text at all.

Ha! Quite clever.

[Emperor Tippy]

While it may not have made it in, the feat was however updated. Since the 3.5 psionics handbook is a completely updated version of the psionics handbook there can be no part of the 3.0 psionics handbook that was not updated or the 3.5 version would not be completely updated. So I must conclude that the feat was updated to have no name, no entry, no text at all.

That is a direct contradiction of the primary source rules as it contradicts page 4 of the PHB.

[olentu]

Ha! Quite clever.

Yeah, I can't remember from who I first saw it put that way but I thought so too.


That is a direct contradiction of the primary source rules as it contradicts page 4 of the PHB.

How so. The PHB says adjustments are needed, the 3.5 version of the psionics handbook provides updates that adjust the content of the 3.0 version of the psionics handbook. You could quibble over whether or not they are minor adjustments but that is a matter of personal opinion.

[Psyren]

That is a direct contradiction of the primary source rules as it contradicts page 4 of the PHB.

The PHB also says there are 11 base classes in D&D, so clearly primary source stops somewhere.

[Ramza00]

Powerlink shards a magic item from magic of eberon are quite nice they are kalashtar only magic items but luckily shaper gives ups as a class skill.

Each shard increases your ml by 2, 3 times a day, for the purpose of augmenting. These shards allow you to bypass the ml cap explicitly, give free pp, and multiple shards stack.

A level 7 psion with 5 shards (cost 7500 gp and 600 xp if the psion crafted it himself, 39% of his wbl) can generate a total of 3 IX level astral constructs per day.

A 9th level construct has a grapple modifier of +38, Black tentacles is caster level + 8 or 23 higher at level 7.

[Coidzor]

Is persisting a power somehow more broken than persisting a spell? :smallconfused:

Only every version of it increases the cost and fiddliness of being able to do so with the more modern it is, the more restrictive the feat text.

[Psyren]

Is persisting a power somehow more broken than persisting a spell? :smallconfused:

That's a moot question for this thread really since you can't persist summons either.

[Coidzor]

That's a moot question for this thread really since you can't persist summons either.

I was wondering how that particular hurdle was supposed to have been overcome as well when it was first brought up.