Mass Effect 3.11: "Black tie required."

[RagingKrikkit]

Mass Effect 3, thread 11
or
"Black tie requred."


***


This is the eleventh thread for discussion of Mass Effect proper, currently on its third installment and final DLC, the final game in the ballad of Shepard. Here we discuss gameplay, mechanics, multiplayer, and anything at all from Mass Effect 1 &2. Spoilers are still spoilers, at least for the DLC. Main game is fair game though. As of this thread, the Reckoning Multiplayer DLC is is open, but people would still prefer spoiler boxes on Citadel in the single player, to allow for pleasant surprises.


Prior threads:
Thread 1: [Spoilers!]
Thread 2: We Fight and We Whine. That's the Plan.
Thread 3: The Important Thing is not Whining, it's Participosting.
Thread 4: Would've Liked to Perform Experiments on Seashells
Thread 5: Does This Thread Have a Soul?
Thread 6: Are You Engaging in Reproductive Behavior With This Thread?
Thread 7: "Now all we need is a gun that fires thresher maws!"
Thread 8: "That was for Thane!"
Thread 9: "How things begin isn't nearly as important as how they end."
Thread 10: Stood Fast, Stood Trong, Stood Together


INCOMPLETE
Playgrounder multiplayer profiles (please use the provided format of
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X-Box 360:

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PS3:



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Character builder (http://narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#0@0@0@0@0) complete with numbers compiler. Some damage calculations are off.
bioware page archiving useful information (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/10712294)

[Zevox]

Continuing from previous thread:


But it frames everything.
Which is what I meant when I said it provides the excuse to be doing those things. Which you could get in other ways anyway.


I'm sorry, I just don't see that carrying a whole game. They'd have to make Morinth into frigging Batman to make one sex-crazed lunatic serial killer enough of a threat to pull in a Justicar and Spectre for an entire game. Either that, or downgrade you to a C-Sec Agent or private d*ck or something equally lame.
I would have absolutely no objections to playing a character that isn't in some super-special position like Justicar or Specter. Though I would disagree that one person couldn't keep one of those occupied for an entire game - it's not like those positions exist just to deal with galactic-apocalypse scenarios, after all.


- If you're a vigilante/PI/private citizen, you have no authority on your side to do things like, say, keep your gun on the Citadel, or kill perps without lengthy hearings.
That could work as well. Would hardly be the first time such characters appeared in video games, or any other type of fiction for that matter.

[Psyren]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Such a game could probably be made, but it wouldn't feel like a WRPG to me, and certainly not a Bioware RPG.

@ Yak: I'm okay with the title, though if anyone else had good ideas we could probably vote too.

[Nerd-o-rama]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Such a game could probably be made, but it wouldn't feel like a WRPG to me, and certainly not a Bioware RPG.

@ Yak: I'm okay with the title, though if anyone else had good ideas we could probably vote too.

I think this is the best policy. Personally I think the genre's run itself well into the ground with Save-The-World plots, and would like to see some variation, but that all comes down to taste.

[Psyren]

One way I could see this working is if (as I think I said in the last thread) they made it an action-adventure instead of an action-RPG. Again I point to Heavy Rain - you follow multiple seemingly unrelated protagonists through a cinematic adventure with multiple endings, having the plotlines converge as you go. Instead of long QTE sequences for the "action" though, they could simply break up the investigation bits with shooter segments. And they've piloted a workable investigation mechanic using Leviathan I would say.

They could even make it drop-in co-op a la the later Resident Evil titles. But to do it right, they'd have to strip out most of the story-based RPG elements like the dialogue wheel and customizing your character, instead just letting you control pre-created personas. (The combat-based RPG elements, like allocating skill points and upgrading your guns, could stay.)

In this way you wouldn't need a "save the world" level plot, and without it being a WRPG the player wouldn't really expect there to be one.

[RagingKrikkit]

@Psy: Yeah, if anybody else has a better idea, then go ahead and speak up.

[Sapphire Guard]

Well, Shepard shows Spectres aren't above doing less dramatic things. Like deciding whether some kid I never met got genetic enhancements, or paying for a Hanar's preaching permit.

Most of Mass Effect 1 wasn't actually a save the world plot, it was 'apprehend one person' instead, until we figured out who was backing him.

[Marnath]

One way I could see this working is if (as I think I said in the last thread) they made it an action-adventure instead of an action-RPG. Again I point to Heavy Rain - you follow multiple seemingly unrelated protagonists through a cinematic adventure with multiple endings, having the plotlines converge as you go. Instead of long QTE sequences for the "action" though, they could simply break up the investigation bits with shooter segments. And they've piloted a workable investigation mechanic using Leviathan I would say.

They could even make it drop-in co-op a la the later Resident Evil titles. But to do it right, they'd have to strip out most of the story-based RPG elements like the dialogue wheel and customizing your character, instead just letting you control pre-created personas. (The combat-based RPG elements, like allocating skill points and upgrading your guns, could stay.)

In this way you wouldn't need a "save the world" level plot, and without it being a WRPG the player wouldn't really expect there to be one.

It wouldn't feel like a ME game to me if you couldn't decide whether your character is a bad guy or a good guy.

[Psyren]

Well, Shepard shows Spectres aren't above doing less dramatic things. Like deciding whether some kid I never met got genetic enhancements, or paying for a Hanar's preaching permit.

But that's my point, all that minor stuff is fine as sidequests but not as a whole game. And a game that is nothing but sidequests isn't appealing to me.


It wouldn't feel like a ME game to me if you couldn't decide whether your character is a bad guy or a good guy.

Honestly I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the Paragon/Renegade stuff and went with the DA2 Diplomatic/Snarky/Direct approach for all their future games. The difference was subtle in some places but I liked it a lot better than the Open Palm/Closed Fist/my-looks-are-tied-to-my-morals approach.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm still mad that Open Palm and Closed Fist choices worked exactly opposite of how they were advertised. At least with Star Wars you have the excuse of an explicit good/evil dichotomy.

[Zevox]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Such a game could probably be made, but it wouldn't feel like a WRPG to me, and certainly not a Bioware RPG.
Well, fair enough.


I think this is the best policy. Personally I think the genre's run itself well into the ground with Save-The-World plots, and would like to see some variation, but that all comes down to taste.
I don't know I'd quite say its run into the ground - I still like my save-the-world games just fine - but I would definitely be up for some RPGs that aren't about that, yes. And really, what I'm mostly driving at is that I'd like to see Bioware play to what I think their strengths are. And I don't honestly think that the save-the-world plotlines are one of them. Things like the Blight in DAO or the Reapers in Mass Effect were some of the weakest parts of those games' stories in my opinion.


It wouldn't feel like a ME game to me if you couldn't decide whether your character is a bad guy or a good guy.
Oh, that gets into a whole other discussion we've had more than a few times. (Well, me and some of the others here, anyway.) Short version is I'd actually consider it a big improvement if Bioware ditched that and we got a character with an actual, defined character for a main protagonist in one of their games. But many others here disagree.

[Ailurus]

But that's my point, all that minor stuff is fine as sidequests but not as a whole game. And a game that is nothing but sidequests isn't appealing to me.


I agree that a sidequest-only game wouldn't be too good, but it is possible to do a WRPG without "save the world" being plastered over everything. Look at Rockstar's games - take something like Red Dead Redemption or (to a lesser extent) LA Noire, stick an ME or DA skill system on it and go. I can't see why that wouldn't work. Heck, Act 1 of DA2 is solid (if short) plotline on its own, and is pretty much "get money." Or look at some of the guild questlines from the Elder Scrolls games (my personal favorite being the thieves guild line in Oblivion) - at least in Oblivion and Skyrim they're widely regarded as better stories than the main quests, while being much smaller in scope.

The problem with translating that into a whole game in an ME or DA is Bioware already painted themselves into a corner by focusing on making everything so epic in the game universes so far. I could see a game focused solely on Omega being fun, until you look back and think about all the other crazy places and events that have happened in the universe. Its a lot easier to start small and slowly grow out than to take a pre-existing massive setting and collapse it down.

[Psyren]

In a setting like Star Wars or Jade Empire, where morality actually has metaphysical impact on the both the universe and the protagonist him/herself, Paragon/Renegade meters make sense. But in ME/DA, that isn't the case, so morality meters can take a flying leap.

I'd like a cross between the ME3 and DA2 approaches. From ME3, you get a basic "reputation" that makes you more likely to pass most checks just from the sidequests you complete and word getting around about you. And then for the really difficult checks, your DA2-esque default attitude (diplomatic, glib/bluffing, or intimidating) determines which of those you can pass. If you don't do a lot of sidequests, you'll have to rely more on your coercive skills, and only one of those can be good enough to carry you without a reputation to back you up.


I agree that a sidequest-only game wouldn't be too good, but it is possible to do a WRPG without "save the world" being plastered over everything. Look at Rockstar's games - take something like Red Dead Redemption or (to a lesser extent) LA Noire, stick an ME or DA skill system on it and go. I can't see why that wouldn't work. Heck, Act 1 of DA2 is solid (if short) plotline on its own, and is pretty much "get money." Or look at some of the guild questlines from the Elder Scrolls games (my personal favorite being the thieves guild line in Oblivion) - at least in Oblivion and Skyrim they're widely regarded as better stories than the main quests, while being much smaller in scope.

The Elder Scrolls examples don't work because those sidequests, regardless of how good they are, are not the focus of the game. "Elder Scrolls IV: Thieves' Guild Errands" and "Elder Scrolls V: Join The Companions" sounds more like DLC than actual games.

LA Noire and RDD meanwhile are action-adventure games, not WRPGs, like I said. You're not playing your own protagonist, you're simply piloting an existing one with his own goals and motivations, watching the world unfold through his eyes. Which brings me back to - maybe Bioware could make a game like that, but until they do I couldn't really have high hopes for it.

[Tebryn]

After over a thousand hours into Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, I just finished the Single Player and I've got to say...even without the end...I found ME3 to be utterly underwhelming. The story felt a little rushed and, perhaps just from knowing the ending and over 10K war assets from my N7 score, never felt that threatened. I don't think I died even once on regular difficulty and the "scan for war assets" mini-game was more boring and tedious than anything else. The game wasn't without it's good moments but for the most part I felt the focus on Cerberus was something that either deserved it's own game, it's own DLC or a more understated presence in the game. I also felt them forcing Udina into the Councilor spot without so much as a word to explain how that happened when I picked Anderson, the Rachni Queen existing either way and the...random dead kid kind of took me out of playing my Shepard and playing a Shepard Bioware thought I wanted to play and made. Also, opening the game with the assumption I played the last DLC for ME2 was a bit jarring I must say. Especially considering it's EA's fault I couldn't play it in the first place after merging my Origin Account and EA account together, somehow getting screwed up to the point that I couldn't buy the DLC for my steam copy. It wasn't a bad game, I honestly felt like all the lingering plot bits got tied up well, some of the scenes rather heart warming/wrenching. The end wasn't that bad, stupid, but I guess time heals all furies.

[Avilan the Grey]

After over a thousand hours into Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, I just finished the Single Player and I've got to say...even without the end...I found ME3 to be utterly underwhelming. The story felt a little rushed and, perhaps just from knowing the ending and over 10K war assets from my N7 score, never felt that threatened.

Well. some people are better at twitchy games than others. Of course I don't play multiplayer (at all, in any game) so before the DLCs came out you had to work a little for your score.

Those things aside two things come to mind: 1. If Normal is too easy, up the difficulty. and 2. I would definitely consider ME3 the best modern RPG Bioware has ever realeased.

[Mudpitmissfit]

After over a thousand hours into Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, I just finished the Single Player and I've got to say...even without the end...I found ME3 to be utterly underwhelming. The story felt a little rushed and, perhaps just from knowing the ending and over 10K war assets from my N7 score, never felt that threatened. I don't think I died even once on regular difficulty and the "scan for war assets" mini-game was more boring and tedious than anything else. The game wasn't without it's good moments but for the most part I felt the focus on Cerberus was something that either deserved it's own game, it's own DLC or a more understated presence in the game. I also felt them forcing Udina into the Councilor spot without so much as a word to explain how that happened when I picked Anderson, the Rachni Queen existing either way and the...random dead kid kind of took me out of playing my Shepard and playing a Shepard Bioware thought I wanted to play and made. Also, opening the game with the assumption I played the last DLC for ME2 was a bit jarring I must say. Especially considering it's EA's fault I couldn't play it in the first place after merging my Origin Account and EA account together, somehow getting screwed up to the point that I couldn't buy the DLC for my steam copy. It wasn't a bad game, I honestly felt like all the lingering plot bits got tied up well, some of the scenes rather heart warming/wrenching. The end wasn't that bad, stupid, but I guess time heals all furies.

Ah yes "Single player" we have dismissed this claim :tongue:

Honestly I have found that on a difficulty level, multi player makes SP trivial ( yes even on insanity )

add in the many promotions which eliminate the need for scanning , SP is show for the rush job it was

that said I still enjoy it ( more so since I've started using Gibbed to fine tune my game experience / cut out the grind )

O and arrival , while fun, has zero impact on ME3 aside from minor dialog changes in the opening scene , which should not have started off as COD rip off ......deep breath

ok not going down that path of analyzing what could be....that leads to the dark side .....(without the cookies )

but anyhow , going to take my lancer 8 for a spin on gold ( the arsenal packs have been good to me of late :smallbiggrin:)

[RagingKrikkit]

Wait, when did a CoD game begin like that?

*Scans collection*

Never.

[Ailurus]

The Elder Scrolls examples don't work because those sidequests, regardless of how good they are, are not the focus of the game. "Elder Scrolls IV: Thieves' Guild Errands" and "Elder Scrolls V: Join The Companions" sounds more like DLC than actual games.

Sure, in their current state they're not as long as the full game. My point was that they show its possible to write storylines in a WRPG that aren't you-must-save-the-world. (And frankly, TESIV: thieves guild adventures would still be longer play-wise than a lot of games that are out there).



LA Noire and RDD meanwhile are action-adventure games, not WRPGs, like I said. You're not playing your own protagonist, you're simply piloting an existing one with his own goals and motivations, watching the world unfold through his eyes. Which brings me back to - maybe Bioware could make a game like that, but until they do I couldn't really have high hopes for it.
Yes, I know the games aren't WRPGs as-is. But, the story could be translated into one. Bethesda has their traditional "you're a prisoner" opening in the Elder Scrolls. Fallout:NV starts off with you being an ex-courier. Is it really that big a difference to say "you're a cop" or "you're an ex-outlaw" instead? The only real difference at the start of the games between Marston and a Bethesda character is having a family (and Bioware added the family in in DA2). Heck, RDD even has the fame and honor meters that are pretty much direct analogs for ME3's reputation and paragon/renegade.

Sure, the traditional bioware opening where you're The Most Famous Human Soldier or A Member of An Ancient Elite Order or The Descendant of a Diety wouldn't mesh well with an opening that mundane (and Bethesda runs into this too in Morrowind and Skyrim, when the world's perception of you starts changing once its revealed who you really are), but that doesn't mean you'd have to throw out the whole WRPG genre to get rid of "Save the World!" plots. Just get the writers to turn back some of the dials from 11.

[Tebryn]

Well. some people are better at twitchy games than others. Of course I don't play multiplayer (at all, in any game) so before the DLCs came out you had to work a little for your score.

Those things aside two things come to mind: 1. If Normal is too easy, up the difficulty. and 2. I would definitely consider ME3 the best modern RPG Bioware has ever realeased.

I've never played Bioware games for the diffculty, more focused on the story. I did up the difficulty but found it more tedious than actually difficult. It still never approached platinum or gold level difficult and those were the settings I played in Multiplayer. I don't mean threatened in that way though. The Reaper Invasion was always played out. The fights with Kai Leng? Played up. All the moments of the game where "we're in the @#$! of it" really never felt like I was pressed for time. It never felt like there was any urgency to the game. There wasn't an -invasion- going on where the entire galaxy was at stake.

Instead we creeped about the Citadel for side missions (which were mostly N7 missions against Cerberus or "Scan Planet X and avoid the Reapers") that just felt like...well...stand in one location and fend off waves of X or Y. The side stuff, the stuff not part of the main game? Felt boring and if I wasn't as eager to do it all or at least close to that level of wanting to do things I'd have just let it be. Instead I ended up with around 18K of War Assets and...it really didn't matter. I needed about 1/4th of that to get the best ending of the Destroy pathway. I didn't even bother with getting 100% war neediness because...what's the point? I had 6k without breaking a sweat. I was assured the best possible outcome regardless of what I did. It took cut scenes to put me in positions where I wasn't to begin with. Not that it's bad story telling but there are games that, when they want me to be in an unwinnable situation, don't screw around with it. They throw me into a situation where I can't win regardless of how well I do. I don't particularly care for that manner of gameplay/story interaction but it's better than kicking butt and chewing bubble gum only for the cut scene to more or less put me on my butt.

The writing over all just seemed...less. ME2 really felt like a living world with characters I cared about. ME3 just felt like it had less time and less concern about introducing the characters they made for the game which just made me dislike them. Vega was a moron and the random Spanish words just didn't make much sense in a game set hundreds of years into the future. Every time he called me Loco I wanted to punch his teeth down his throat. Kaiden was just as wooden and boring as he was in ME1 even though he had every reason to be more lively. They killed off, or let you have the chance to kill off, a lot of characters for...emotional drama? It worked for Legion and Mordin for me at any rate. Actually cried for Mordin so job well down.

But that's the sticking point really. They know how to write a good story. They know how to engage me. They know the buttons to push. But ME3, for me, just...didn't hit them all that often. Sure it tied up loose ends but it seemed frantic to do it. As if they knew they wouldn't, and they wouldn't, get the chance to do it in another game. It felt like two games trying to fit into one time slot. Cerberus and all that took up a lot of time and a lot of energy and...really could have had another game all to themselves. Deserved one even, yearned for one. ME3 just over all felt rushed, busy, self important and all to short.

Was it a good game? Yes. Undoubtedly. Could it have been better? Yes, without question. Did I enjoy it? Not...really. Bits yes but over all I kind of just wanted to get it done and over with. I have, and am playing, Indie Games in their Alpha stage with more polish and more promise than what Bioware made. Is it the best of the modern Bioware games? I can't agree with you there. ME2 is the best Modern Bioware RPG they've ever made. ME1 and ME3 are just the crap bread of an otherwise amazing sandwich.


Ah yes "Single player" we have dismissed this claim :tongue:

After a thousand hours I came to hate the multiplayer more, the buggy pile of wonderful that it is.


Honestly I have found that on a difficulty level, multi player makes SP trivial ( yes even on insanity )[quote]

Ya, when it came down to it...I just went with regular. It got me through the game faster.

[QUOTE=Mudpitmissfit;16280921]add in the many promotions which eliminate the need for scanning , SP is show for the rush job it was

This may be one of my main issues with the game. It was short, shorter than the other two for sure. I completed ME2 (without DLC) in about 26 hours. ME3? A little under 19 and that was with scanning everything and leaving the game open for a long time.


that said I still enjoy it ( more so since I've started using Gibbed to fine tune my game experience / cut out the grind )

Like I said above, I didn't hate my time with it. I just felt it could have been better and in no way lives up to the standard everyone put it at.


O and arrival , while fun, has zero impact on ME3 aside from minor dialog changes in the opening scene , which should not have started off as COD rip off ......deep breath

ME3 assumed you knew about the Alpha Relay, which was in Arrival. I in fact didn't know about Arrival except through research. I didn't know about the Batarian's fate except for research. None of this is really ever explained to you in ME3 that I saw and I certainly went looking. At least outside the coded that is.

[Avilan the Grey]

(Stuff)

Well to each his or her own.
ME3 will probably be the game I will replay most of all games, ever. I have already gone through it a number of times and is the first game I have ever used the NG+ function in. At the moment I am running another Infiltrator through ME2 so I can put her through ME3 twice.

ME2... lacks in writing and story both to ME1 and ME3. ME1's gameplay simply sucks; the combat is laughably bad and the driving and inventory is horrendous. But the story is much better than ME2. ME3's story is almost on par with ME1, and with every other part of the game far far superior.

Just FYI I rank the Bioware games I have played thusly:

1. ME3
2. BG2
3. ME2.
4. DAO
5. BG1
6. ME1
7. NWN
8. DA2

With a huge drop in quality between 6. and 7.

[Psyren]

After 1000 hours of MP, even if you never spent a dime on packs yourself, you made it easier for others to justify the expenditure since they were able to get a lobby going and play for all that time so... congrats I guess?



Just FYI I rank the Bioware games I have played thusly:

1. ME3
2. BG2
3. ME2.
4. DAO
5. BG1
6. ME1
7. NWN
8. DA2

With a huge drop in quality between 6. and 7.

I'm the odd duck who has never beaten any of the BG games. Though now that BG has been ported wholesale over to NWN2 I'm definitely going to play that version.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm the odd duck who has never beaten any of the BG games. Though now that BG has been ported wholesale over to NWN2 I'm definitely going to play that version.

Heh, myself I will buy the new and improved version of the original BG2 when it comes out in a few weeks time, and then start a new character from scratch in BG1.

[RagingKrikkit]

ME2... lacks in writing and story both to ME1 and ME3.

I think what makes 2 so memorable are the characters.


ME1's gameplay simply sucks; the combat is laughably bad and the driving

[Insert disagreement]


and inventory is horrendous.

[Insert agreement]


But the story is much better than ME2. ME3's story is almost on par with ME1, and with every other part of the game far far superior.

Except multiplayer?

[Avilan the Grey]

I think what makes 2 so memorable are the characters.

---

Except multiplayer?

The characters are better, but it is the "middle movie" and it shows.

And multiplayer? What about it?

[Landis963]

I'm probably going to be thrown in the proverbial stocks for this, but ME3's multiplayer is superior to ME2's because ME2 had no multiplayer. 1 is bigger than 0.

[Psyren]

I'm probably going to be thrown in the proverbial stocks for this, but ME3's multiplayer is superior to ME2's because ME2 had no multiplayer. 1 is bigger than 0.

Yep, and it beats ME1 for the same reason.

But honestly I think they knocked it out of the park with the MP. Even they weren't expecting it to be that good. The only really annoying bit was the URs, I'd gladly pay 2mil+ for a guaranteed UR.

[Zevox]

I'd gladly pay 2mil+ for a guaranteed UR.
I'd almost pay that much for a guaranteed anything, honestly. Removal of those random boosters is definitely at the top of my list of wants for any future iteration of Mass Effect mulitplayer.

[Tebryn]

After 1000 hours of MP, even if you never spent a dime on packs yourself, you made it easier for others to justify the expenditure since they were able to get a lobby going and play for all that time so... congrats I guess?

Naw, never spent a single dime on a pack. Got everything through good old grinding. Almost had everything maxxed until...the buggy nature of the game and all my friends going to play other games drug me away. The multiplayer was fun when it worked. Silly when it didn't and aggravating when day one bugs were still not fixed when EA pulled the funding plug.

[Psyren]

I'd almost pay that much for a guaranteed anything, honestly. Removal of those random boosters is definitely at the top of my list of wants for any future iteration of Mass Effect mulitplayer.

I don't think the packs themselves are bad, but being able to pay a premium just to escape horrible servitude to the RNG would be worthwhile too.

Of course, what with all the credit exploits people have pulled, it'd remove the last obstacle to seeing a slew of Particle Rifle X in every game.


Naw, never spent a single dime on a pack.

I never said you did :smalltongue: reread my post.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yep, and it beats ME1 for the same reason.

But honestly I think they knocked it out of the park with the MP. Even they weren't expecting it to be that good. The only really annoying bit was the URs, I'd gladly pay 2mil+ for a guaranteed UR.

And to me it's kinda sad; one of the greatest game series in history has been reduced to "a fun multiplayer" because of it. It's all people talk about.

Of course I have no interest in playing the multiplayer part so I am biased. And since I consider the multiplayer component irrellevant to the game, I do not add it as a factor when rating the ME games against eachother.

[Tebryn]

I never said you did :smalltongue: reread my post.

Oh, I got you. I was confirming your statement but...it didn't really need it so :smallredface: I wrote it late. I mostly played with friends so I didn't really help out the community however.

[RagingKrikkit]

And to me it's kinda sad; one of the greatest game series in history has been reduced to "a fun multiplayer" because of it. It's all people talk about.

I think that's more because they don't want to talk about the ending.

[Wraith]

Before we get back to talking about the ME3 ending, here's something to cheer everyone up. A friend posted this on Facebook....

http://i.imgur.com/dIMSYNz.png

I really hope it's not just fanart, as the possibility of an Elcor squadmate in ME4 is just too good to turn down. :smallbiggrin:

[RagingKrikkit]

"Now crouch down so we can use you as cover."

[Nerd-o-rama]

Mass Effect 2 is my favorite for the same reason The Empire Strikes Back is so many peoples' favorite Star Wars movie. Even if it doesn't work without the stories before and after it, it was where the writing, characters, and setting really hit their stride and grew complex enough to care about.

It's also before directorial hubris set in and they realized they could just throw anything out there and everyone would still buy it, no matter how embarrassing their PR got.

[Wraith]

Mass Effect 2 is my favorite for the same reason The Empire Strikes Back is so many peoples' favorite Star Wars movie. Even if it doesn't work without the stories before and after it, it was where the writing, characters, and setting really hit their stride and grew complex enough to care about.

Interesting! ME2 is my favourite in the series because I always interpreted it as the complete opposite of this. ME2 could be removed from the ME series, and it would not alter ME1 or ME3 to any great extent, apart from a few throwaway references generated by Renegade/Paragon decisions in side quests.

Look at it like this - What carries over from ME2 that MUST remain in ME3?
The answer is, pretty much nothing.
Shepherd is now a cyborg - it has virtually no effect on the game mechanics, and while touched briefly during the assault on the Cerberus base there's very little questioning whether or not he is the real man, the copied machine or a soulless clone. Take out that one conversation, and you'd probably never know that Shepherd was resurrected.

The cast is entirely removed between ME2 and 3, to the extent that ME3 can be plotted to work without them. This isn't exaggeration - FailShep playthroughs prove that, had Shepherd never put together his team in ME2, then ME3 would have continued regardless using guys like Kirrahe in their place.

A few plot points would need minor changes - Garrus never became a vigilante, he just left the Normandy and rejoined the army, thus becoming the defacto Reaper expert directly. Alenko/Williams never left Shepherd's side, and the controversy over joining Cerberus never happened. Tali completes her Pilgrimage, takes home once-in-a-lifetime information on the Geth to her people and (also due to her father's influence) gets quickly promoted up the ranks, like Garrus does. And so on. :smallsmile:

Even Liara becoming the Shadow Broker really doesn't do much to effect the plot of ME3 - had it just been said that the events of ME1 made her grow up 'fast' and she became more serious and dedicated her archeological skills to contemporary data-gathering instead, I don't think anyone would have noticed! :smalltongue:

The Collectors could just as easily have not existed. We got all new enemies in ME3, the baby-reaper they're building gets mentioned as background techno-babble and not much else, and we never see or visit any of the colonies that they destroy. If the Combat Simulator in Citadel just said "You read about these guys in Fornax, now fight them in the field!" as though they were some kind of made-up urban legend.... I'd buy it.

None of this is meant as a criticism - as I said, ME2 is by far my favourite in the series, and I think that's because it can stand alone as it's own game.
The plot is self contained. Enemies are discovered, get a team together, go slit 'em up, you blow up their entire 'planet' and them with it, roll credits - you could have marketed that without it being part of the ME universe, under pretty much any name you wanted. No worrying about the quality of the sequel (as in ME1) and no controversy over a multiple choice ending (ME3), it just works.

But most importantly, the goal isn't as ambiguous - you're going to go and blow up the Collectors, but who knows what'll happen when, or if, you put together the Crucible? - which means you have time to enjoy the setting and the characters on your own terms, never wondering if the next plot mission will suddenly 'pull a Virmire' and cut you off from the side quests and other content with little warning.

Each to their own, but to my mind ME1 and ME3 are crucial to the story of Shepherd whereas everything in ME2 is all an added bonus. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Of course I have no interest in playing the multiplayer part so I am biased. And since I consider the multiplayer component irrellevant to the game, I do not add it as a factor when rating the ME games against eachother.

Yeah, we get it, you don't play MP :smalltongue: Throw it in your sig already!


Oh, I got you. I was confirming your statement but...it didn't really need it so :smallredface: I wrote it late. I mostly played with friends so I didn't really help out the community however.

But if you helped them gear up, then they were more likely to play random games with strangers etc. That's why the F2P model works so well, because other players are the most important content in a MP title.


Interesting! ME2 is my favourite in the series because I always interpreted it as the complete opposite of this. ME2 could be removed from the ME series, and it would not alter ME1 or ME3 to any great extent, apart from a few throwaway references generated by Renegade/Paragon decisions in side quests.

Look at it like this - What carries over from ME2 that MUST remain in ME3?
The answer is, pretty much nothing.
Shepherd is now a cyborg - it has virtually no effect on the game mechanics, and while touched briefly during the assault on the Cerberus base there's very little questioning whether or not he is the real man, the copied machine or a soulless clone. Take out that one conversation, and you'd probably never know that Shepherd was resurrected.

The cast is entirely removed between ME2 and 3, to the extent that ME3 can be plotted to work without them. This isn't exaggeration - FailShep playthroughs prove that, had Shepherd never put together his team in ME2, then ME3 would have continued regardless using guys like Kirrahe in their place.

A few plot points would need minor changes - Garrus never became a vigilante, he just left the Normandy and rejoined the army, thus becoming the defacto Reaper expert directly. Alenko/Williams never left Shepherd's side, and the controversy over joining Cerberus never happened. Tali completes her Pilgrimage, takes home once-in-a-lifetime information on the Geth to her people and (also due to her father's influence) gets quickly promoted up the ranks, like Garrus does. And so on. :smallsmile:

You... have a pretty good point. You really could excise ME2 and not affect the narrative at all.

[Mudpitmissfit]

I think that's more because they don't want to talk about the ending.

pretty much this

I for one would rather talk about the sweet sweet joy of a krogan warlord one-shotting a phantom with a rage fueled biotic hammer , than morn the awesomeness of what ME 3 sp COULD have been. Its a good game, but I think the corporate mentality of not isolating "new" players (aka potential revenue), the rush to get the next game out and the hatchet on many features (so no side quest /exploration or bypass/hacking mini games ? ) pretty much cut it down from being a GREAT game.

The real awesomeness of multiplayer was when the "year of support" was in full swing , weekend ops , multiple free DLC's and the developer interaction made it a truly epic experience.

SP shep saved the galxy , the N7 squads (MP) fought the war - it was (for me) the real "meat" of my ME3 experience, and seeing as it kept me invested and actually got me to shell out for the paid DLC, I suppose you could say : "working as intended" :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Eh, I'm pretty happy they stripped out the hacking games. Really they add nothing to the experience, and they get very, very old late-game and on subsequent playthroughs. They added nothing to the experience, and playing memory/pipe dream/simon etc. has absolutely no relation to actual hacking anyway.

As far as the DLC, I got Omega for completeness but in all honesty, I don't feel like I got my money's worth out of that one. From Ashes and Citadel were worth every penny of course (or the former would have been, had I not gotten it for free.)

[Zevox]

I think that's more because they don't want to talk about the ending.
I'd say more because we've already talked to death about the ending. And just about everything else in the game. There just comes a point when there's not much left to say about the main story besides rehashing conversations you've already had.

[Ailurus]

Look at it like this - What carries over from ME2 that MUST remain in ME3?
The answer is, pretty much nothing.


I mostly agree, except for one crucial point. Without ME2, Citadel doesn't make sense.

(are Citadel spoilers still necessary? Ah well)
Without the Lazarus Project, it doesn't really make sense for the Illusive Man to have created the Clone, and without the Clone then we lose out on a lot of the fun bits in Citadel, like the "Do I really sound like that" bit and Wrex going on a Krogan Rampage.


As for favorite game overall, though, I'd have to pick ME1. Sure, Immunity makes some fights a pain towards the end, but the overall narrative was strongest in 1 I think. 2 and especially 3 had better individual scenes, but taking the story as a whole a lot of 2 felt like it was just a holding pattern, and 3's ending and marginalization of choices from the previous games irked me. Probably would rank them 1, 3 a close second, and 2 third.

[Psyren]

The Clone was little more than amusing filler. You could have cut that entire segment out and just had the DLC be "Hey Shepard, here's a cool apartment for you, thanks for working so hard" and nothing of value would be lost. You could even still attend the Casino gala and hear the funny dialogue, just without the godawful stealth mission crap and dubious random number generator gambling games cluttering it up.

[Ailurus]

The Clone was little more than amusing filler. You could have cut that entire segment out and just had the DLC be "Hey Shepard, here's a cool apartment for you, thanks for working so hard" and nothing of value would be lost. You could even still attend the Casino gala and hear the funny dialogue, just without the godawful stealth mission crap and dubious random number generator gambling games cluttering it up.

To each his own. I agree that nothing is lost chopping out the casino, but I found the fights, especially the Archives chase, much better than the 'walk around the citadel and invite everyone' part. And the apartment itself is meaningless in my opinion, except for it being a place to hold the party (which was also quite good)

[Landis963]

The Clone was little more than amusing filler. You could have cut that entire segment out and just had the DLC be "Hey Shepard, here's a cool apartment for you, thanks for working so hard" and nothing of value would be lost. You could even still attend the Casino gala and hear the funny dialogue, just without the godawful stealth mission crap and dubious random number generator gambling games cluttering it up.

Psh, the Clone was 25% of that DLC at best. I know I didn't buy it for the clone plot. Likewise, 25% of the funny dialogue in the Casino is directly related to the stealth. (Which was passable, IMO, if predicated on the idea that you're pulling a Bavarian Fire Drill con). Also, without the clone plot we don't get the Archive trip. Which was worth the price of admission by itself.

[Psyren]

The Archive trawl is indeed neat but didn't tell us much we didn't already know. I think the only two bits of new info were that

(a) the Salarians were always against actually using the genophage
(b) there was another AI race before the Geth that got wiped out

Both of which weren't really new, just buried in the annals/codex before that.

[Wraith]

Here's how I would have written Citadel, without ME2:

The 'fake' Shepherd is Corporal Toombs.

It works best if you have the Sole Survivor background, but it still works; an emotionally unstable N7 soldier sees a human promoted to the rank of Spectre and decides that it should have been him. Left for dead, tortured, and only eventually compensated by a grudging Alliance, Toombs grabs his old armour and goes AWOL, using his training and Alliance knowledge to impersonate and eventually usurp Shepherd.

After all, as of ME1 Shepherd is an Alliance soldier in generic armour and wearing a face-concealing helmet most of the time - who but his most trusted companions would know? (And THEY just got locked in a vault in the darkest recesses of the Citadel for 10,000 years, so it's not like they're going to tell anyone....)

Off the top of my head, you lose a couple lines of dialogue that specify the word 'clone' but otherwise it's a good fit. They are kinda alike, the only difference is that Shepherd was picked up by Alliance rescuers and Toombs by Cerberus captors. It's easy to imagine that, had the roles been reversed, Shepherd could have been the one locked in a cell and experimented on while some other N7 Marine went on to fight in the Skyllian Blitz....

On reflection, even though it works out this is probably the ONLY point I can think of where ME2 has a better plotline available:

Fake Shepherd is actually.... Conrad Verner! :smalltongue:

After being embarrassed (or just outright shot!) on Ilium, he keeps his 'fake' armour, goes completely off the deep end and decides to show Shepherd just how capable he really is by continuing the charade and taking it to the next level! :smallbiggrin:

[RagingKrikkit]

But most importantly, the goal isn't as ambiguous - you're going to go and blow up the Collectors, but who knows what'll happen when, or if, you put together the Crucible? - which means you have time to enjoy the setting and the characters on your own terms, never wondering if the next plot mission will suddenly 'pull a Virmire' and cut you off from the side quests and other content with little warning.

That's what you took away from Virmire?


Eh, I'm pretty happy they stripped out the hacking games. Really they add nothing to the experience, and they get very, very old late-game and on subsequent playthroughs. They added nothing to the experience, and playing memory/pipe dream/simon etc. has absolutely no relation to actual hacking anyway.

Omni-gel spam!


As far as the DLC, I got Omega for completeness but in all honesty, I don't feel like I got my money's worth out of that one. From Ashes and Citadel were worth every penny of course (or the former would have been, had I not gotten it for free.)

From Ashes is the one I feel short on. Let's see, for ten bucks, I got half an hour of gameplay, what was supposed to be a nostalgia trip, a scene of character development for Liara, a gun, two bonus powers and a character I think the story as a whole is better off without. I guess my problems with Javik are that:

1: he strikes me too much as the soldier who got nuthin' left to live for but killin' bad guyz, despite the "avatar of vengance" line that, honestly raises more questions than it answers, and

2: Javik sucks a bit of the air of mystery out of the setting, both related to the plot and as applied to the Prothean Empire. I know many people wanted more information on the Empire, but there were really only two possible stories, neither of which would have been really satisfying. Either they would have been "teh good guyz who gave us all teh good stuffs!", and the one we did get: "Their actually bad guyz!!!!", neither of which really creates a sense of curiosity the way that knowing next to nothing about them did.

As for Omega, however, I'd rate it as being worth $10, but not $15. For fifteen dollars, I wanted war in the streets. I wanted hordes of vorcha going omni-claw to stun baton with assault troopers as Eclipse commandos rained biotic fire upon the Cerberus legions and above it all the Mad Prophet screaming holy death to all mankind. Or I would have settled for Omega turning into a hub again, where Shep could pick up sidequests, have a chat with a few old "friends", or, hell, maybe even find a new teammate. But, oh well, guess not.

But, if you had to ask me, what made Omega worth it, what caused me to forigve the episode for all its glaring flaws, was the generator scene. I've mentioned before how into these games I can get, and sitting there juggling the lives of thousands was one of those moments that makes the Mass Effect story great.

Sorry, I needed to rant/gush; I'll cut it short here before I spend the next hour typing decreasingly sane things about what the DLCs have done right or wrong.

[Avilan the Grey]

Citadel is the best DLC the best DLC for any game ever, IMHO. And I do consider all the DLCs worth the money.

From Ashes was great, mostly because Jarvik is one of my favorite characters of the series. I definitely disagree with everything YakYak says about it.

Omega was fun, though I wish we could have had Aria with us through the whole game. And Nyreen, too. Plus I wish those mechs were in the game proper as well.

Leviathan was very VERY good, although I think that story really should have been part of the basic game, just like the EC.

Weapon packs are always amazing and worth the money, just like they were for ME2.

[Maryring]

Hello alls. I recently finished Mass Effect 1 through 3, having acquired them all recently. It was a blast playing through them. Story was great all over, and the gameplay just got better and better. It's just such a pity the third game ended so abruptly as you were charging towards the pillar of light to take you into the citadel.

But at least the multiplayer is fun in ME 3. Thus far I've mostly been playing Human Sentinel, with some Asari Vanguard when I want more fun and awesome than effective. I don't really have many characters to choose from yet.

That said, any tps for what to spend credits on, or which classes to try out when I eventually get em?

[RagingKrikkit]

Hello alls. I recently finished Mass Effect 1 through 3, having acquired them all recently. It was a blast playing through them. Story was great all over, and the gameplay just got better and better. It's just such a pity the third game ended so abruptly as you were charging towards the pillar of light to take you into the citadel.

Did your game crash? There's still 15 minutes or so past that point.

[Maryring]

Nah. Just implying that the game "ended" after that, as the quality of writing drops sharply after the charge. Better to write my own ending than accept any of the canon endings.

[RagingKrikkit]

Ehhh, we've had five or six arguments about that in the last few threads, so I'm going to tiptoe around that statement.

[D_Man_7733]

Nah. Just implying that the game "ended" after that, as the quality of writing drops sharply after the charge. Better to write my own ending than accept any of the canon endings.

It's an interesting writing exercise to try and come up with an ending within the bounds of the (pre-extended-cut) ending you are given. Personally, I was never too bothered by the ending (lack of closure with the Geth notwithstanding), and it's just like adding more detail to you shepard's background within the bounds of him stopping the batarians or something.

[Avilan the Grey]

With the EC, there is no lack of closure.

[D_Man_7733]

With the EC, there is no lack of closure.

It's good to hear, I might have to download it once I've downloaded Citadel (Still haven't played any DLC because I'm the kind of person who has to play 1-3 in order before I can finish 2 or 3 (not to mention my only choice of characters is one who has Ashley as LI or has to choose between Liara and Tali... not a fun conversation, just shut my game down and replayed the series with Ashley as LI, and what a mistake that was *grumble*spending half the game in a coma*grumble*))

[Mordokai]

It's good to hear, I might have to download it once I've downloaded Citadel

Might want to hurry with that, from what I hear, it may not be free for much longer.

[Zevox]

Might want to hurry with that, from what I hear, it may not be free for much longer.
:smallconfused: Seriously? You sure about that? Even after so long with it being free, it seems uniquely stupid for them to invite the sort of criticism that will inevitably come if they start charging for the EC. That's pretty much the opposite of what Bioware needs right now.

[Psyren]

Omega was fun, though I wish we could have had Aria with us through the whole game. And Nyreen, too. Plus I wish those mechs were in the game proper as well.

The mechs were indeed fun - but by the time they came out we had Dragoons in the MP and so anytime I wanted to scratch that particular itch I knew where to go.

What I really wanted was more Petrovsky. There was a lot of potential for him as a villain and I feel it was squandered on being a two-bit pirate-queen's foil.


Nah. Just implying that the game "ended" after that, as the quality of writing drops sharply after the charge. Better to write my own ending than accept any of the canon endings.

QQ


Might want to hurry with that, from what I hear, it may not be free for much longer.

Do you have a source? I doubt they'll do this - or maybe they'll just bundle it in with the Trilogy/Complete edition.

[RagingKrikkit]

I think I read somewhere that it was garunteed free until 2014. Wither or not that means it will stop being free is up for debate.

[Ailurus]

:smallconfused: Seriously? You sure about that? Even after so long with it being free, it seems uniquely stupid for them to invite the sort of criticism that will inevitably come if they start charging for the EC. That's pretty much the opposite of what Bioware needs right now.

Yeah. That's beyond counterproductive. Its not like many people will be buying ME3 from here on out, and jacking up DLC prices is only going to make it less likely.

[Impnemo]

Bioware intended to charge for it originally but released it for free as a result of the backlash, per Bioware at PAX. No indication I've found that it will not be free in the future.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bioware-considered-charging-for-mass-effect-3-extended-cut/1100-6411978/

Deliberately bad ending so you can pay for the slightly less bad ending, oy. Just think, they thought this idea was a winner.

[Blackdrop]

Where is it saying that the ending was "deliberately bad"? All that article talks about is that originally planned to charge for the EC and then changed their minds? :smallconfused:

[Derthric]

Where is it saying that the ending was "deliberately bad"? All that article talks about is that originally planned to charge for the EC and then changed their minds? :smallconfused:

From what I recall the EC was never meant to be paid DLC. the Indoctrination Theory did however imply that there was to be more afterwards and that DLC may or may not be free, but IT was never more than fan wank.

The EC was listed as being free until April 2014 IIRC I dont know where that decision came from. It may be because of outside restrictions like how the EC had to be under 2 gig to be free per Microsoft's rules for DLC.


Personally I like the tone and atmosphere of ME1 the most. It invoked what it would be like to be sort of Captain Kirk-esque, being a great explorer and adventurer on the edge of Civilized space, bedding green blue space babes and saving the galaxy. Plus how the Mystery of Saren's motives and the Reapers being shrouded in myth added to the sense of exploring the unknown. But the combat gameplay, in retrospect, was deeply flawed and character growth was linear. And I have a love/hate relationship with the Mako. But I think ME1 is my favorite in the series.

[Impnemo]

Where is it saying that the ending was "deliberately bad"?

I said its a bad ending. It is a bad ending. It is not accidentally so. They deliberately released an unfulfilling product and planned on charging you to bandaid it until the producer said otherwise after the response.







Deth read the link up top, Bioware themselves say they intended to charge for it originally.

[Blackdrop]

I said its a bad ending. It is a bad ending. It is not accidentally so. They deliberately released an unfulfilling product and planned on charging you to bandaid it until the producer said otherwise after the response.

Riiiiiiiiiight, whatever you say. :smallsigh:

[Impnemo]

You dont have to dislike the ending yourself to admit that it is a bad ending. How bad? The producer, whose ultimate job it is to make the project profitable, was willing to let DLC go out the door for free for the sake of positive PR. The ending damaged the product that badly. There are dollar signs attached to these decisions, its a business.

[Derthric]

Deth read the link up top, Bioware themselves say they intended to charge for it originally.

For me having a discussion at one point about charging is different than going into full development with that intent. In preliminary discussions everything is placed on the table so you can push it off. Given that MS wont let free downloads be over 2 gigs, to charge or not is a reasonable thing to figure out before development can continue. Plus they would have to go to suits at EA and argue for a budget, etc. All that is just proper planning.

[RagingKrikkit]

You dont have to dislike the ending yourself to admit that it is a bad ending. How bad? The producer, whose ultimate job it is to make the project profitable, was willing to let DLC go out the door for free for the sake of positive PR. The ending damaged the product that badly. There are dollar signs attached to these decisions, its a business.

Okay, and that relates to them intending to sell the DLC... how?

[Mordokai]

:smallconfused: Seriously? You sure about that? Even after so long with it being free, it seems uniquely stupid for them to invite the sort of criticism that will inevitably come if they start charging for the EC. That's pretty much the opposite of what Bioware needs right now.

It makes little sense to me as well, but that's what I've heard. Read bellow on it.


Do you have a source? I doubt they'll do this - or maybe they'll just bundle it in with the Trilogy/Complete edition.

It came up in an IM conversation with a friend who just recently got into ME saga. No links were given, but I trust him, since he's not usually one to go spreading rumors that have no base in truth. So no, no hard facts or anything like that, really.

[Psyren]

I said its a bad ending. It is a bad ending. It is not accidentally so. They deliberately released an unfulfilling product and planned on charging you to bandaid it until the producer said otherwise after the response.


Deth read the link up top, Bioware themselves say they intended to charge for it originally.

"There was discussion around X and somebody said no" is not at all the same thing as "we were totally going to do X and pulled it at the last minute because the fans would have flipped out" - which is what you are trying to claim absolutely happened above. As I recall, there was also discussion around Luke Skywalker being an alien or a 60 year old man at some point. All ideas get discussed at the start of a project - that's how you find out the bad ones.


For me having a discussion at one point about charging is different than going into full development with that intent. In preliminary discussions everything is placed on the table so you can push it off. Given that MS wont let free downloads be over 2 gigs, to charge or not is a reasonable thing to figure out before development can continue. Plus they would have to go to suits at EA and argue for a budget, etc. All that is just proper planning.

Yes, exactly.



It came up in an IM conversation with a friend who just recently got into ME saga. No links were given, but I trust him, since he's not usually one to go spreading rumors that have no base in truth. So no, no hard facts or anything like that, really.

Well, if it does happen we can be pretty confident that they, or the gaming media, will get the word out ahead of time pretty quickly. I doubt we'll all wake up one morning and see a price tag on EC.

[Avilan the Grey]

I said its a bad ending. It is a bad ending. It is not accidentally so. They deliberately released an unfulfilling product and planned on charging you to bandaid it until the producer said otherwise after the response.
.

There is no proof of this anywhere, but it is a common tinfoil theory. No statement from EA or Bioware has ever hinted on the EC not being planned as free from the start.

Especially since the EC wasn't planned, at all, to begin with.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well I finally finished the series last night. I'm still mulling over the ending. I was expecting to get some big choice about the fate of the universe and all that, but I was a little bummed that there was no choice that would allow Shepard to go back to her friends. I am glad that there were three options instead of just two, since I was planning to do a full Renegade and a full Paragon run in the future (given that my initial character tried to maintain a more balanced outlook).

About Harbinger: I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed that I didn't get to fight him, or that he took off without making sure I was really dead.


About the DLCs: I'm glad I waited until near the end to do the Citadel DLC. It was a great ride and probably the high point of the series for me. It basically had everything. Most of all, I was SO happy to hang out with Wrex and Grunt again. James just doesn't hold a candle to actual Krogans.

I could have done Omega earlier, but I just didn't feel like a mission where I go off alone really fit into the story well.

Leviathan was okay. Kind of lackluster, to be honest. I was really hoping to get a new vehicle and have more underwater missions, rather than just a one-off with a submersible mech. Especially when you consider that both of the vehicles in ME1 and ME2 had shark names, I really wanted a full-on submarine for this one.

But I have to say that getting Javik was probably the best DLC overall. He was just cool and added a lot of story to the game. I can't really imagine how the game would be without him and his insights into the past, particularly on Thessia. Without Javik, the Protheans would have largely remained as mysterious precursors.


Overall, this series was one heck of a rollercoaster for me and it makes me glad I decided to get my XBox in order to play it. Even if the ending wasn't exactly what I expected or hoped for, it was still very fulfilling to finally complete the epic saga.


EDIT: Also, when I finally tried out the multiplayer to get the achievement a few weeks ago, I was really surprised by how good it was. This is something I will keep playing for a while. Gotta unlock more characters! :smallamused:

[ShinyRocks]

It's funny, but I haven't even thought about Mass Effect for ages. I didn't get the Omega DLC; I didn't even realise there *was* the Citadel DLC. I just don't think I can go back and play extra content set before the end, even though I'm sure I'd enjoy it. But it's over, for me. The Reapers have been stopped, Shepard has made her choice, there's been a moderately happy-ish ending. I loved the games so much, got so into the relationships with my squadmates, and identified my Shepard so strongly as *the* Shepard, that going back would be inappropriate, almost. Like re-reading a book and finding out the publishers had shoved in some extra chapters when you weren't looking.

It's why I haven't really been able to re-play the game that much. Jennifer Hale's voice, to me, belongs to a Paragade (tries to help people, looks for the solution that's best for everyone, *will* without hesitation blow you up with exploding gas pipes or throw you out a window if you talk too much) black lady with cropped hair dyed bright orange and blue eyes. I tried other femshep runs and couldn't do it. That's not who Shepard is!

I've got a manshep I should probably finish; I'm about two thirds through ME3 with him. He's a full Renegade Vanguard, punching it in the face is the solution kinda guy. Who's in love with Kaidan. But I'm not sure I can face the consequences of his earlier ... sub-optimal decision making.

Multiplayer was better than I thought it would be, and I liked the justification behind it and the idea that there's a whole war going on, not just Shepard and a couple of mates. And yet, I still didn't enjoy it that much. I don't really like shooters (I always, always was playing ME games for the plot, not the combat). I resent(ed) the fact that it had any impact at all on single player. So many people in multiplayer are rude, short-tempered jerks. I avoid group content in Warcraft for the same reason. There are, of course, some really great people but I have better things to do than play the odds and hope to end up with not-jerks. (None of my friends had ME3, so grouping together wasn't an option.) I understand why Bioware did it, and obviously it's been a huge success and I admire their attitude to free DLC etc, but personally I would have still prefered if it were never there.

I wish they'd had the courage of their convinctions a bit and actually made it so you missed stuff if you'd made decisions earlier. All the Biff the Understudies and so on. The Rachni Queen especially. I know there would have been so much nerdrage 'I WANT ALL THE CONTENT, I PAID MY MONEY' etc, but I would have found it more convincing. Related: I'm really interested to see where they go with ME4. As people have been saying, I don't see how they can set it after the Shepard timeline, because that necessarily makes one ending canon. Unless they set up the game to read your save files, which is a huge undertaking and not even possible depending on what system the game comes out on....

[Maryring]

It's an interesting writing exercise to try and come up with an ending within the bounds of the (pre-extended-cut) ending you are given. Personally, I was never too bothered by the ending (lack of closure with the Geth notwithstanding), and it's just like adding more detail to you shepard's background within the bounds of him stopping the batarians or something.

Eh, I feel there's plenty room for ending writing, even accepting the post EC stuff as canon. Especially details. I felt a lot of it was really vague. That said, I rewrite even before the beam, as that's where the writing ceases to appeal to me.


Ehhh, we've had five or six arguments about that in the last few threads, so I'm going to tiptoe around that statement.

Figured. I've no intention of restarting the argument.



QQ

Cute.


EDIT: Also, when I finally tried out the multiplayer to get the achievement a few weeks ago, I was really surprised by how good it was. This is something I will keep playing for a while. Gotta unlock more characters! :smallamused:

The ME3 multiplayer is the most fun multiplayer I've ever tried. It's really enjoyable.

[Sajiri]

Am I the only one who didn't think the ending to 3 was bad? Of course, I didn't get into ME until after the extended ending was released..I don't like how it ended on such a down note though unless you take red I guess..

I finally started replaying 1 the other day, first time I've played it since I beat it for the first/only time. There were a few small things I missed out on in 1 last time that I wanted to get done this time aaaand I already messed up :smallannoyed: Namely, even though it's not much, I didn't get all of matriach dilinaga's writings last time, and that's needed for conrad in 3. This time I was determined to do that, buuut I forgot the data for the exogeni guy in feros, when I tried to go back up there I can't use the elevator to get back up to the skyway.

I also just really wanted to let Ashley live this time, since Kaidan was utterly useless to me in 3. I tried Adept for 1 this time, still planning to change back to vanguard come time to export to 2 but, damn, I'm really going to miss having singularity.

[Psyren]

Am I the only one who didn't think the ending to 3 was bad? Of course, I didn't get into ME until after the extended ending was released..I don't like how it ended on such a down note though unless you take red I guess..

You're not, and I saw both sets of endings. I tend to naturally put more weight on authorial intent and risk-taking than on execution, and though I certainly do agree their execution was flawed, I appreciate what they tried to do as well as how they made up for it.



I also just really wanted to let Ashley live this time, since Kaidan was utterly useless to me in 3. I tried Adept for 1 this time, still planning to change back to vanguard come time to export to 2 but, damn, I'm really going to miss having singularity.

Whaaaaat? Kaidan is awesome in 3. Reave and Barrier are both great bonus powers for a Vanguard too.

[Zevox]

Am I the only one who didn't think the ending to 3 was bad? Of course, I didn't get into ME until after the extended ending was released..I don't like how it ended on such a down note though unless you take red I guess..
No, though I think it's safe to say you're in the minority. Personally, I don't think the extended cut took care of the biggest problems with the ending either. All it really did was expand it so it wasn't so abrupt.

[Sajiri]

Whaaaaat? Kaidan is awesome in 3. Reave and Barrier are both great bonus powers for a Vanguard too.

I dunno, he kinda just bugged me personality wise, and I usually had Garrus (since he's my favourite squadmate) and Liara (I think it was her who let me push my cooldown right down to let me just spam charge-nova as much as I wanted) with me, occasionally swapping out Liara to take someone else for fun.

Ashley is a little more annoying in 1, but my husband insists she's 'a total bro' in 3, so I'm just interested to see her in it. In my original playthrough I romanced Kaidan, then had to put up with his whininess in 2 and early 3, then was supremely disappointed there was no ultimate showdown between him and Garrus :smallannoyed:

[Maryring]

That's because Garrus is too mawesome for Kaidan to even dare consider the option.

That said, I agree. Kaidan and Ashley don't... quite cut it for me. Garrus, Tali and Thane are my favourite partners. Now and forever. Oh and EDI, but you can't romance her.

[Sajiri]

That's because Garrus is too mawesome for Kaidan to even dare consider the option.


I like that explanation :smallbiggrin:

If only Zaeed could join in 3..I rotated through everyone in 2, but Garrus + Zaeed was my favourite team.

[Marnath]

I dunno, he kinda just bugged me personality wise, and I usually had Garrus (since he's my favourite squadmate) and Liara (I think it was her who let me push my cooldown right down to let me just spam charge-nova as much as I wanted) with me, occasionally swapping out Liara to take someone else for fun.

Ashley is a little more annoying in 1, but my husband insists she's 'a total bro' in 3, so I'm just interested to see her in it. In my original playthrough I romanced Kaidan, then had to put up with his whininess in 2 and early 3, then was supremely disappointed there was no ultimate showdown between him and Garrus :smallannoyed:

Make sure you reset her points and don't give her any in marksman if you want her to help you. She's glitched for that one.

[Avilan the Grey]

No, though I think it's safe to say you're in the minority. Personally, I don't think the extended cut took care of the biggest problems with the ending either. All it really did was expand it so it wasn't so abrupt.

I am not even sure about that. Especially not after the EC.
A vast majority of game critics (even the non-corrupted ones) liked it. Outside of BSN, at least 40% were happy with the original endings.

Personally I never saw the original endings, I didn't start the game (I had it installed since I pre-ordered) until the EC was installed, but I am satisfied with the EC endings. They weren't BRILLIANT, but they were better than average.


Make sure you reset her points and don't give her any in marksman if you want her to help you. She's glitched for that one.

Indeed. And this is what truly anger me about Bioware. They KNOW that she is glitched, but they refuse to patch it, since they are "done" with ME3. The final patch broke her, and they just... ignore it.

That said, if she is stuck, manually choose a target for her, and she wakes up.

But yes, I actually prefer Kaidan in ME3, I prefer his personality to Ash. I am sad that in my current playthrough I picked Ashley to survive.
Also, put Kaidan and James up front and they tank anything in the game. Especially if you give them a Typhoon each.

Edit: If you use Ash, make sure to take advantage of her Marksman by giving her fast-shooting guns. Best for her is the Indra and the Typhoon. And again, if you notice her getting stuck turning her Marksman on over and over, just manually pick a target for her, and she wakes right up. But it is annoying.

[McDouggal]

Tried out the ME3 multiplayer tonight.

It was... interesting. I don't particularly like the soldier or infiltrator classes (of course, that might be because I didn't have the Black Widow for my infiltrator :smallsigh:) since I found myself lacking in ability to actually 100-0 the enemies when it counted.

[Psyren]

Indeed. And this is what truly anger me about Bioware. They KNOW that she is glitched, but they refuse to patch it, since they are "done" with ME3. The final patch broke her, and they just... ignore it.


They fixed the Kaidan bug, so they're aces in my book :smallbiggrin:


Tried out the ME3 multiplayer tonight.

It was... interesting. I don't particularly like the soldier or infiltrator classes (of course, that might be because I didn't have the Black Widow for my infiltrator :smallsigh:) since I found myself lacking in ability to actually 100-0 the enemies when it counted.

If you're just starting you'll definitely want to play caster until you have some decent guns.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I dunno, he kinda just bugged me personality wise, and I usually had Garrus (since he's my favourite squadmate) and Liara (I think it was her who let me push my cooldown right down to let me just spam charge-nova as much as I wanted) with me, occasionally swapping out Liara to take someone else for fun.

Ashley is a little more annoying in 1, but my husband insists she's 'a total bro' in 3, so I'm just interested to see her in it. In my original playthrough I romanced Kaidan, then had to put up with his whininess in 2 and early 3, then was supremely disappointed there was no ultimate showdown between him and Garrus :smallannoyed:

That's because Kaidan is a self-absorbed whiner with no real character arc other than being clingy at Shep. Good abilities, though.

Ash has several red flags for "wow all these conversations are going to be painful", but she actually has character development. Rather a lot of it, by ME3.

[Psyren]

Psh, her character arc went all the way from "annoying racist" to simply "annoying." Also, I don't get all the "he's whiny" comments. Ash is way more whiny than Kaidan. Kaidan actually apologizes to you for Horizon in the hospital, for starters - and he isn't catty/b*tchy to you if you cheat on him.

Kaidan is the better tactical choice too. He's the officer, and in ME3, he's training an entire spec ops unit. Ash is... finding her civilian family. Noble personal goal perhaps, but means diddly when it comes to the war.

So yeah, Ash can take a flying leap into a mushroom cloud as far as I'm concerned.

[McDouggal]

Psh, her character arc went all the way from "annoying racist" to simply "annoying." Also, I don't get all the "he's whiny" comments. Ash is way more whiny than Kaidan. Kaidan actually apologizes to you for Horizon in the hospital, for starters - and he isn't catty/b*tchy to you if you cheat on him.

Kaidan is the better tactical choice too. He's the officer, and in ME3, he's training an entire spec ops unit. Ash is... finding her civilian family. Noble personal goal perhaps, but means diddly when it comes to the war.

So yeah, Ash can take a flying leap into a mushroom cloud as far as I'm concerned.

Concerning Ashley and Kaidan:

I have, both times, put Kaidan with the Salarians since he has command experience that Ashley lacks.

This meant that Ashley was the one with the bomb.

Both times, I've saved Ashley because of this thing: SHE'S WITH THE BOMB. The entire mission is based off of the fact that this bomb needs to blow. It's not like it's just some pirates trying to turn it off either; it's freaking Geth. They are SYNTHETICS. They THINK in binary, and know electronics. It wouldn't shouldn't be that hard for them to defuse somehting as relatively simple as a jury-rigged bomb. Kaiden was a good soldier, but I'm not going to put the ENTIRE MISSION in jeopardy to save Kaidan and his squad of Salarians.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Bonus points for the squad of Salarians surviving regardless of whether you go rescue them, as long as you supported them earlier. Also on the tactics front Kaidan gets bonus points for being the class no one in his right mind would play in ME1

I'll be honest, though, Kaidan just kind of creeps me out when he starts getting romantic. That's the main reason.

[Mordokai]

Psh, her character arc went all the way from "annoying racist" to simply "annoying." Also, I don't get all the "he's whiny" comments. Ash is way more whiny than Kaidan. Kaidan actually apologizes to you for Horizon in the hospital, for starters - and he isn't catty/b*tchy to you if you cheat on him.

Yeah, I'm not really digging all the "whiny" vibes either. What's so whiny about him? Can't comment about him being clingy, since I have yet to try his romance, but the guy isn't all that bad to me.

I did save Ash this time around. Only so I can put bullet between her eyes when the time comes. To say bitch is annoying is an understatement of highest magnitude.

[Dienekes]

Ehh, I always preferred Ash. Kaidan just seemed boring to me, the Jacob of ME1. Ash at least had a character, well that and I always saw her biases as closer tying her to nationalism than actual racism. She basically calls out racists when she actually sees them and is fine fighting and dying with aliens. But yeah, I can definitely see why others wouldn't like her.

I also kind of agree with her about Shepard. I wouldn't trust him either if he suddenly appeared working for an enemy in the first game. Though she does apologies with her note in ME2.

[Psyren]

Kaidan's role in ME1 is similar to Wynne's in DA:O - explaining how the "mages" of Mass Effect, specifically the human ones, are treated to a non-biotic player. By talking with him, you learn about the history of biotics to humanity, Jump Zero/BAaT, even background on how strained things still were with the Turians not too long ago. Just as Wynne teaches you about the Circle and their often tumultuous relationship with the Chantry if you aren't a mage yourself. It's just downplayed in ME since special powers aren't nearly as big a deal in a setting where everyone uses ranged weapons as a matter of course.

I acknowledge that it makes sense to go back for Ash, though in that case you're more going back for the bomb than for her it seems to me. Geth hacking aside though, the Salarians are sure nothing can stop the bomb, and they're right. If we can metagame to say "The Salarians survive anyway" we can metagame just as much on the other side to say "the Geth can't stop the bomb."

[McDouggal]

I acknowledge that it makes sense to go back for Ash, though in that case you're more going back for the bomb than for her it seems to me. Geth hacking aside though, the Salarians are sure nothing can stop the bomb, and they're right. If we can metagame to say "The Salarians survive anyway" we can metagame just as much on the other side to say "the Geth can't stop the bomb."

I was going back for the bomb; I'll explain my thought process here.

I knew that it was likely that whichever one I didn't go to assist was dead. There was no math of "but I can save them both if I go to help (X)."

If I go up to save the Salarians, I give the Geth (and by extension Sovereign) free time to play with the bomb and maybe defuse it, thus failing the mission and allowing Saren to reinforce this location, and continue his research on indoctrination and breeding the Krogan. (Keep in mind that I wasn't metagaming this; I was trying to put myself in the mind of Shepard here). If I go to protect the bomb, I lose a soldier, but safeguard the success of the mission. In this case, the mission had to come first; there was no way around it.

[Psyren]

And I agree that your train of thought is perfectly valid. Note however that you have just as much reason to put Kaidan with the bomb and Ashley with the Salarians.

My Paragon FemShep did just that - Kaidan being a tech expert would be of more use making last-minute calibrations to the bomb (and repelling the Geth with his electronics skills) if things went wrong. He's also physically stronger than her thanks to his biotics. Meanwhile, Salarians are good at espionage but not so good at pitched firefights (Kirrahe notwithstanding.) I put Ashley with them because (a) I figured she wouldn't be able to do much with the bomb anyway if things went wrong there, and (b) her skills as a soldier and squad-leader would be put to better use putting steel in the Salarians' spines.

Which is why I said - going back there is more about the bomb itself, than about Ashley.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, I'm not really digging all the "whiny" vibes either. What's so whiny about him? Can't comment about him being clingy, since I have yet to try his romance, but the guy isn't all that bad to me.

I did save Ash this time around. Only so I can put bullet between her eyes when the time comes. To say bitch is annoying is an understatement of highest magnitude.

I think my favorite thing about these games is how vehemently players can disagree on the available choices. If more of the "big" decisions were as even and impactful as the Virmire Choice, I think the games would have been even better.

[Psyren]

I think my favorite thing about these games is how vehemently players can disagree on the available choices. If more of the "big" decisions were as even and impactful as the Virmire Choice, I think the games would have been even better.

Somewhat ironically, people even disagree on that. One of the big complaints about the ending was "Shepard should be a superhero that can survive no matter what" or "Shep should have found a way to just blow up the Reapers and save the Geth/EDI" and consider it out of character, if not outright bad writing, that Shepard should be incapable of something. To which I always point out Virmire, and how in the beginning you were supposed to be able to save them both (there's even audio recorded for it on the disk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMSJDxM8YT4)) but that Bioware specifically removed that option so as to make that scene more poignant/meaningful. And it worked - Virmire is one of the most memorable choices of the original game and even the entire series.

[Ailurus]

As for Ashley vs. Kaiden, I usually save Ash. While I do accept how a lot of people feel about her, I've never been able to figure out why people translate one conversation into her being an unforgivable racist, especially when those same sentiments are repeated by multiple other characters across the trilogy.

But, the main reason I spare her is that, frankly, she's a real character while Kaiden is not. All we know about Kaiden is he's a biotic, he was trained with other biotics, he's a biotic, his biotic implants give him headaches, he's a biotic, his parents live in Canada, and he's a biotic. Oh, and did I mention he's a biotic? There's nothing wrong with being a biotic, but that's the entirety of what ME1 Kaiden is. Generic Biotic Soldier Man. Like her or hate her, Ash has something beyond the military and has actual motivations and hopes whether you disagree with them or not. And she has a family she cares about and which cares about her. So, I choose to spare the character.


Also on the tactics front Kaidan gets bonus points for being the class no one in his right mind would play in ME1


What's wrong with ME1 sentinels? It lets you handle all the lock stuff yourself, you still get to have fun with lift and throw, electronics + barrier gives you better survivability than anything but Immunity, and your class ability functionally combines the pistols skill with cooldown reductions. Or, to put it another way, you can do everything an adept can do except singularity, while picking up most of the tech talents.

[RagingKrikkit]

Ehh, I always preferred Ash. Kaidan just seemed boring to me, the Jacob of ME1. Ash at least had a character, well that and I always saw her biases as closer tying her to nationalism than actual racism. She basically calls out racists when she actually sees them and is fine fighting and dying with aliens. But yeah, I can definitely see why others wouldn't like her.

I also kind of agree with her about Shepard. I wouldn't trust him either if he suddenly appeared working for an enemy in the first game. Though she does apologies with her note in ME2.

Yeah, but that scene only appears after Virmire. But I'm with you on that one. Anybody who actually sat down and talked with Ashley through ME1 should be walking away with a similar conclusion, but either I'm misreading, or a very significant percentage of the fanbase hasn't been exploring all the game has to offer.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Somewhat ironically, people even disagree on that. One of the big complaints about the ending was "Shepard should be a superhero that can survive no matter what" or "Shep should have found a way to just blow up the Reapers and save the Geth/EDI" and consider it out of character, if not outright bad writing, that Shepard should be incapable of something. To which I always point out Virmire, and how in the beginning you were supposed to be able to save them both (there's even audio recorded for it on the disk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMSJDxM8YT4)) but that Bioware specifically removed that option so as to make that scene more poignant/meaningful. And it worked - Virmire is one of the most memorable choices of the original game and even the entire series.

And I call those people out the same way you do (didn't know about the cut option, by the way, thanks). It took guts to force RPG players into a situation where there was no one true correct path and all options had real downsides. That's also one of the reasons I tolerate ME3's ending choices despite the fact that the whole concept was executed shoddily and Bioware seems to disagree with me on the idea of Synthesis having a downside.

[Derthric]

For me I was really enjoying my ME1 playthrough the first time and then I got to Virmire and I fell in total fanboyism with the game. I went back for the bomb, for reasons others have said, and saved Kaiden. Which meant my Shep had left the woman he was romancing to die because that's what was needed to win. It really was the best decision point in the game for me. Virmire worked because the decision was Ash or Kaiden and you placed value on each depending on your opinion of either. The game basically said either decision would result in the bomb going off. No caveats, no qualifications, no third parties defining the pluses and minuses, just straight up make a choice. That's my problem with the ending choice. The Catalyst qualifies the endings, he states that the destroy is pointless, since new synthetics will be made and the cycle and that control will just lead Shepard to repeat his decision and then he pushes you towards Synthesis. On Virmire you had to chose between two equally valid options, at the ending the choices were weighted and defined by the Catalyst not by Shepard or more importantly the player as it was on Virmire. Of course I don't think any decision point ever equaled the power or difficulty of Virmire.

Also the Salarians who survive are from the other two fireteams, they used 3 one lead by Kirrahe, another by one of his officers and the third by Kaiden/Ash. If you do the bonus objectives going through the back of the base two of those teams survive and get on the ship. Only the team lead by Kaiden/Ash gets hopelessly pinned down.

[Sajiri]

Maybe I was too hard on Kaidan, I dont dislike him exactly, and this playthrough is really just 'I've never played the series with Ash living, I'd just like to see what she's like,' I still have my save where Kaidan lived that I can import later. My main issues were the 'romance' ones, aside from the fact that I like to play without subtitles and I can't understand most of what Kaidan says, he was just not, ah, direct enough? Last night I play and have a conversation with him, shepard makes the comment about their last convo 'you mean when we flirted?' .....they were flirting?

I say whiny because of all the YOU'VE CHANGED SHEPARD! I get to 3 on mars, we're in the middle of a mission, I've played a pure paragon the whole way through, let Ashley die for his sake, and he wants to stop me and accuse me 'I loved you shepard YOU'VE CHANGED!' Bah, when do I get Garrus back again?

I'm not making any judgement over who I like more in Ashley vs Kaidan until I've seen Ash the whole way through. If I like Kaidan more, then in the future when I'm sure I'll play it again I'll import the save where he lived.

[Psyren]

That's my problem with the ending choice. The Catalyst qualifies the endings, he states that the destroy is pointless, since new synthetics will be made and the cycle and that control will just lead Shepard to repeat his decision and then he pushes you towards Synthesis. On Virmire you had to chose between two equally valid options, at the ending the choices were weighted and defined by the Catalyst not by Shepard or more importantly the player as it was on Virmire. Of course I don't think any decision point ever equaled the power or difficulty of Virmire.

But Virmire pushes you too. Ash wants you to save Kaidan, Kaidan wants you to save Ash. No matter which you choose you're going against someone's wishes. Why's it so different?

As for the Catalyst, he's right. Hitting the AI reset button won't do anything to stop them from showing up again.



I say whiny because of all the YOU'VE CHANGED SHEPARD! I get to 3 on mars, we're in the middle of a mission, I've played a pure paragon the whole way through, let Ashley die for his sake, and he wants to stop me and accuse me 'I loved you shepard YOU'VE CHANGED!' Bah, when do I get Garrus back again?

Ash is worse at that part (and in the hospital) but I'll let you find out for yourself.

[Sajiri]

Ash is worse at that part (and in the hospital) but I'll let you find out for yourself.

But if I'm not romancing her it doesnt bother me as much, at least..I hope she won't start off with 'I LOVED YOU SHEPARD' :smalleek:

[Derthric]

But Virmire pushes you too. Ash wants you to save Kaidan, Kaidan wants you to save Ash. No matter which you choose you're going against someone's wishes. Why's it so different?

But the value of who to save is still up to Shepard/the player. The choice is an equal one, a squad mate for a squad mate. Do you need Kaiden to give you tech abilities for the rest of the game? Well that's up to the player. The player is forced to come up with why their choice is the right choice. No other decision point has that. Some people decide by which character they want more, or protect the bomb, or more people can be saved in the salarian fire team. It's completely up to you. And no choice is the wrong choice, at no point does the voice of the writers inject itself in declaring Kaiden worth more than Ash, which is how I feel about the Catalyst's arguments, rationale, and presentation of the endings.


As for the Catalyst, he's right. Hitting the AI reset button won't do anything to stop them from showing up again.

Honestly wrote a whole diatribe to respond to this but I deleted it. You and I exchanged a lot over this a long time ago and no need to rehash it. But I will just say that the ending struck me as an embrace of fatalism and that to me is just a narrative berserk button.

[KillianHawkeye]

But I will just say that the ending struck me as an embrace of fatalism and that to me is just a narrative berserk button.

Well the Catalyst is an AI. Nothing but computer software. It makes sense that it evaluates the options in the way that it does, but it's up to us (as Shepard) to see things from the human perspective and include our own emotional response into the choice we make.



The thing that really made me question about the ending wasn't the endings themselves, but this: If the Catalyst, creator and controller of the Reapers, lives on the Citadel, then why did Sovereign need to attack and take over the Citadel in order to activate the ME Relay that would bring back the Reapers? Couldn't the Catalyst just do that himself at any time? Or couldn't he have easily fixed whatever flaw the last Protheans introduced into the Keepers that made them ignore Sovereign's instructions? Why did he decide to just sit back and leave everything to Sovereign and Harbinger?

[Psyren]

The player is forced to come up with why their choice is the right choice. No other decision point has that.

What? Every other decision point has that. Even Samara vs. Morinth had that.



at no point does the voice of the writers inject itself in declaring Kaiden worth more than Ash, which is how I feel about the Catalyst's arguments, rationale, and presentation of the endings.

Except he's arguing from the perspective of his character - an AI - not the writers'. Several writers, I'll remind you, chose Destroy - the ones brave enough to actually tell the community what they went with anyway.

Expecting him to be thrilled about being nuked or enslaved is more than a bit silly. Of course he's going to upsell Synthesis.



I will just say that the ending struck me as an embrace of fatalism and that to me is just a narrative berserk button.

There is hope in all of the endings - hope that we can learn to coexist with AI before conflict like this happens again. In terms of probability of this occurring however my money is on the green beam.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But if I'm not romancing her it doesnt bother me as much, at least..I hope she won't start off with 'I LOVED YOU SHEPARD' :smalleek:

I was actually kind of mad that men could romance Kaidan in 3 and women didn't get the same option for Ash, but then again I didn't care that much because I'm a Liara fan.

I'm just not getting into the ending argument again. Screw it.

[Mordokai]

I was actually kind of mad that men could romance Kaidan in 3 and women didn't get the same option for Ash, but then again I didn't care that much because I'm a Liara fan.

*highfive*

Though yeah, in retrospect, that didn't make much sense.

[Dienekes]

Ehh, after coming from Dragon Age 2, where everyone swings for Hawke, I would actually prefer if they just pick a sexuality for the squadmates and stick with them. Besides there's quite a few lesbian or basically lesbian romances in ME already, while gay romances were drastically underrepresented.

[Marnath]

Ehh, after coming from Dragon Age 2, where everyone swings for Hawke, I would actually prefer if they just pick a sexuality for the squadmates and stick with them. Besides there's quite a few lesbian or basically lesbian romances in ME already, while gay romances were drastically underrepresented.

Samantha Traynor is the only lesbian romance in Mass Effect. Liara, Samara and Kelly Chambers react equally well to male or female Shepard.

[Psyren]

Samantha Traynor is the only lesbian romance in Mass Effect. Liara, Samara and Kelly Chambers react equally well to male or female Shepard.

And Shiala and the Consort and...

[KillianHawkeye]

And Shiala and the Consort and...

Those two hardly count.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, I have a real hard time saving Kaiden.
Because I have so little time for him, really. He's just so mild and inoffensive. He's just so damned bland as a person, as a character.

When the choice is to lose him or Ash? Well, she's got the whole intolerance thing, daddy issues, crippling self worth issues and so on. There's simply more personality there.

Don't get me wrong, she still gets left on the ship every chance I get. Why take Ashley when you can take Garrus or Wrex or Tali or...almost anyone else?

[Avilan the Grey]

Don't get me wrong, she still gets left on the ship every chance I get. Why take Ashley when you can take Garrus or Wrex or Tali or...almost anyone else?

Who on earth brings Tali when you don't have to. She is the second most boring character in the games after Jacob.

(Also, after having to drag her around the whole of ME1 just to unlock stuff I am thoroughly tired of her).

[McDouggal]

Who on earth brings Tali when you don't have to. She is the second most boring character in the games after Jacob.

(Also, after having to drag her around the whole of ME1 just to unlock stuff I am thoroughly tired of her).

... I liked Tali. I enjoyed having her aboard and with me on missions, even though her voice did give me migraines sometimes.

[Psyren]

Those two hardly count.

Marnath's post said "they react equally well to male or female Shepard." Those two do as well. So yes, they count.



When the choice is to lose him or Ash? Well, she's got the whole intolerance thing, daddy issues, crippling self worth issues and so on. There's simply more personality there.

Oh yeah, you really sold her. :smalltongue:

No, I'll take Kaidan any day. He's actually smart, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyDGkZfXa1E) not just another gun-toting jarhead like James.


Who on earth brings Tali when you don't have to. She is the second most boring character in the games after Jacob.

(Also, after having to drag her around the whole of ME1 just to unlock stuff I am thoroughly tired of her).

I don't bring her anywhere because I can't justify her getting shot up in a firefight and coming through unscathed. There are even attacks in ME1 that bypass shields, like Rachni acid and claw strikes.

But do note that Garrus and Kaidan are both every bit as good with locks as she is.

[Tiki Snakes]

Ash is a train-wreck, but at least she has that going for her.

Kaiden is so mild that even his voice is pitched as if he's trying to avoid notice or something. There's just nothing there.

If Ash goes on, her future success is her casting off her father's tainted legacy and living up to her potential. Interesting enough in a "Not on my squad" kind of way. Kaiden? If he lives, his future involves...him not having died?

And yes, Garrus is almost always my ME1 unlocking buddy of choice. Because in addition to providing loot, he is also garrus.

But Tali makes a great foil for Wrex and was invaluable on my ME1 charlies-angels style run.

[Psyren]

If Ash goes on, her future success is her casting off her father's tainted legacy and living up to her potential. Interesting enough in a "Not on my squad" kind of way. Kaiden? If he lives, his future involves...him not having died?

His future is an entire biotic black ops unit. If you're going to rate legacies like that at all, one family's butthurt being expunged can't compare.

[Tiki Snakes]

His future is an entire biotic black ops unit. If you're going to rate legacies like that at all, one family's butthurt being expunged can't compare.

I'm not interested in like, the facts of what they go on to do so much as the narrative weight.

[Psyren]

I'm not interested in like, the facts of what they go on to do so much as the narrative weight.

When you say all he did was "not die" it implies nothing else he did mattered. This in turn implies that being a teacher has no impact on the future. I don't think it's possible to be more wrong than that.

Kaidan's unit is groundbreaking - it, and outfits like it, could eventually become the Alliance's answer to Asari Commandos and similar groups. Now, I'm not saying Ashley or her family don't matter, nor even that they matter less, but the fact that Kaidan had no siblings is not a mark against him.

Though actually, if I were absolutely forced to rank them by the impact they'd likely have, I would in fact put Kaidan on top.

[Tiki Snakes]

You're approaching it from entirely the wrong angle. He physically does plenty of stuff, even during ME1. Its just that none of it is particularly interesting or emotionally charged or metaphorically resonant. His story has no weight, no bite. He's simply a mild mannered lack of presence.

Ash may or may not go on to actually achieve anything particularly worth writing down in a history journal but at least she has an actual emotional and metaphorically resonant journey as a person.

Hell, if it turned out in ME3 that she failed utterly at her military career and washed out, having taken a similar action as her father? I'd still rate her as the one I'd rather see live past Virmire.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't bring her anywhere because I can't justify her getting shot up in a firefight and coming through unscathed. There are even attacks in ME1 that bypass shields, like Rachni acid and claw strikes.

But do note that Garrus and Kaidan are both every bit as good with locks as she is.

No they are not. They CAN be, but they are not. It costs more points in decryption to get them there.

It all would have been great if you had ME2's "request new squadmember" option, so you didn't have to go back up to Normandy and then back down again if you ran into a lock you couldn't crack. That's why it's so much easier to drag her everywhere.

[Psyren]

You're approaching it from entirely the wrong angle. He physically does plenty of stuff, even during ME1. Its just that none of it is particularly interesting or emotionally charged or metaphorically resonant. His story has no weight, no bite. He's simply a mild mannered lack of presence.

What does Ashley do that's so "resonant?" Blah blah racism religion poems blah. Mushroom cloud.


No they are not. They CAN be, but they are not. It costs more points in decryption to get them there.

Obviously I meant after you spend the points. And if there's no lock she can crack that they can't, there isn't a difference that matters.

[KillianHawkeye]

Marnath's post said "they react equally well to male or female Shepard." Those two do as well. So yes, they count.

Yeah, but they're not romance options. Hence my use of the word "hardly."

[Nerd-o-rama]

Who on earth brings Tali when you don't have to. She is the second most boring character in the games after Jacob.

...*leaves thread*

[Psyren]

...*leaves thread*

Now look what you did :smallbiggrin:

(I don't see how anyone could call Tali boring though.)

[Marnath]

Tali is a great team mascot/cheerleader. I usually bring her and Garrus.

[RagingKrikkit]

What does Ashley do that's so "resonant?" Blah blah racism religion poems blah. Mushroom cloud.

I... I have no counter to this level of wrong.

[Psyren]

I... I have no counter to this level of wrong.

You're right, there was some whining in there about her sister or something too.

[Dienekes]

You're right, there was some whining in there about her sister or something too.

Even if you did not personally like her backstory (totally fine, some things work for some more than others), you have to at least admit there is some actual emotion in there. Even if it didn't connect with you, or even if it made you angrier with the character, Ash was a fully developed character. She had a life outside the game and her role in it. She has a deep seated inferiority complex that causes her to both act brash and even hostile and will also make her jump at a chance to go do something dangerous to protect others. By ME3 you see her develop past her families reputation and become more confident and intelligent a character and still dealing with her life outside the conflict of the game.

Kaidan, I can some up Kaidan in a sentence and I don't think I would miss anything. He introduces us to Biotics in the ME universe and had kind of a hard childhood. One that Jack would laugh at. He may not be offensive or annoying, but that's because there's no actual depth to him.

[Psyren]

Kaidan, I can some up Kaidan in a sentence and I don't think I would miss anything. He introduces us to Biotics in the ME universe and had kind of a hard childhood. One that Jack would laugh at. He may not be offensive or annoying, but that's because there's no actual depth to him.

There is plenty of depth to Kaidan, and it's sad that so few are willing to pay attention to it. (Maybe if he had boobs...?)

Yes, he's reserved, even taciturn. The incident with Vyrnnus shocked him - a lot. He lost control and, at 17 years old, he killed a man. Even in self-defense, that's a very traumatic experience for a teenager to have. Even though Vyrnnus was an ass, even though he might have killed Kaidan, Kaidan still regrets what happened. And just as messed up, the girl he did it for - the friend he was protecting - ended up shunning him for it. Even Shepard points out that that had an obvious effect on him.

But he also learned from it. Before being taken to BAaT, he was a romantic who idolized aliens. After the incident, he realized "they're jerks and saints, just like us." But he didn't let that bad experience with one member of the species sour his opinion of them all. "Yeah, I hated that turian. But he wasn't "a turian" to me. He was Vyrnnus."

So yeah, self-control and doing the right thing, that's what he's about. But what happened to Ashley? Nothing of her own making. She has the stain of her father's legacy and her perceived duty to the Alliance - both of which combine to make her, if not a xenophobe, and least unduly concerned with aliens. So tell me, what's so special/deep/interesting about her? "I had racist tendencies, now I don't" isn't much of an arc to me. You'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to stay a xenophobe on the Normandy.

[RagingKrikkit]

Sweet Arceus, I... never mind, I'm not going to say that.

Instead I'll say that you are fundamentally misunderstanding Ashley. Nothing of her own making? How about not only surpassing her father by ME1, but by ME3 having earned a commision and rising up to equal rank with Shepard? She's not anti-alien, she's pro-human, and if you hadn't dropped a nuke on her, you would have had the chance to see her meet the terra firma party's new canidate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B461srREAos). I am a patriot, I believe that America is the best country in the world and anyone who messes with us should and will get a boot up his ass. Does that make me anti-everyone who's not American?

[Psyren]

Sweet Arceus, I... never mind, I'm not going to say that.

Are... are you exclaiming to a pokemon?



Instead I'll say that you are fundamentally misunderstanding Ashley. Nothing of her own making? How about not only surpassing her father by ME1, but by ME3 having earned a commision and rising up to equal rank with Shepard? She's not anti-alien, she's pro-human, and if you hadn't dropped a nuke on her, you would have had the chance to see her meet the terra firma party's new canidate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B461srREAos). I am a patriot, I believe that America is the best country in the world and anyone who messes with us should and will get a boot up his ass. Does that make me anti-everyone who's not American?

What exactly did that clip demonstrate? She has a sore spot for Shangxi - already knew that. She denounces the racists in Terra Firma, but goes on to say that "we should express our opinions at gunpoint" and "standing firm against aliens militarily" is "a noble goal."

Not anti-alien? Well, there was her comment that "she can't tell the aliens from the animals." Or her quip that "at least Liara looks human." Or her godawful dog and bear analogy. No, it goes beyond just "pro-human."

Also, sidenote: I found her constant use of "Skipper" to be every bit as annoying as "Loco/Lola." Seriously, what is it with the Soldier squadmates? Do they all have to be portrayed as happy-go-lucky jarheads?

[RagingKrikkit]

Are... are you exclaiming to a pokemon?

Picked it up from Illven and his nuzlocke threads.


What exactly did that clip demonstrate? She has a sore spot for Shangxi - already knew that. She denounces the racists in Terra Firma, but goes on to say that "we should express our opinions at gunpoint" and "standing firm against aliens militarily" is "a noble goal."

the right to express opinions at gunpoint. Standing firm militarially in the worst case. The other option is to roll over and let the dictator of the week take over and do what he wants.


Not anti-alien? Well, there was her comment that "she can't tell the aliens from the animals."

Alright, that's a bit tricky to put in human comparison, but that always struck me as more of a sense of amazement at the sheer variety of creatures, including intelligent creatures the galaxy has produced. If nothing else the tone of voice is not disdainful, and it feels like a politically incorrect statement of fact.


Or her quip that "at least Liara looks human."

Liara is someone that Ashley can almost relate to, similar to how an American would be more comfortable with a Brit than with someone who doesn't speak English.


Or her godawful dog and bear analogy. No, it goes beyond just "pro-human."

Note that that's how she assumed the council saw humanity, not how she saw other races. But even then, America and Britan sat back and let the Soviet Union storm Berlin, rather than go in themselves (much to Patton's disgust).


Also, sidenote: I found her constant use of "Skipper" to be every bit as annoying as "Loco/Lola." Seriously, what is it with the Soldier squadmates? Do they all have to be portrayed as happy-go-lucky jarheads?

No clue why you found that annoying, but okay.

[Tebryn]

Also, sidenote: I found her constant use of "Skipper" to be every bit as annoying as "Loco/Lola." Seriously, what is it with the Soldier squadmates? Do they all have to be portrayed as happy-go-lucky jarheads?

Oh dear Gods yes. I found Kaiden to be dull but nowhere near as vacuous as Ashley. I have a lot of problems with most of the women in ME except for Tali but Ashley takes the cake, I gleefully let her die on Virmire. Vega was stupid as well but at least I never had to talk to him after the first Loco out of his mouth.

[Avilan the Grey]

I... I have no counter to this level of wrong.

Ashley has interesting sisters.
That's the only thing she has that is "more interesting" than Kaidan. Seriously.

(ME1) Both VS are wooden blocks compared to Garrus or Wrex. Liara is a bit creepy, with a very unsettling voice (seriously, in ME1 her voice creeps me out) and Tali is... well... she has coffee jitters. And a shotgun. And almost no armors to choose from.

[Sajiri]

I feel like my decision to play a game where I let ashley live just to see her side and announcing that has caused a lot of argument here ):

[Tebryn]

Liara is a bit creepy, with a very unsettling voice (seriously, in ME1 her voice creeps me out)

:smallconfused: Her voice hasn't changed the entire series?

[Avilan the Grey]

I feel like my decision to play a game where I let ashley live just to see her side and announcing that has caused a lot of argument here ):

My new "Canon" playthrough, as a Paragon Infiltrator (female, of course) has Ash. I like her better in Me3, but that goes for all of the LS from the first game... Her glitch is annoying but thankfully it makes a sound so you hear when she is stuck (not there yet, I am a third through ME2 with this character).


:smallconfused: Her voice hasn't changed the entire series?

Maybe she just have more interesting things to say? I DO think her voice actress has evolved her voice though; it has more feeling in it in LotSB and ME3, more passion.

[Maryring]

Ashley has interesting sisters.
That's the only thing she has that is "more interesting" than Kaidan. Seriously.

(ME1) Both VS are wooden blocks compared to Garrus or Wrex. Liara is a bit creepy, with a very unsettling voice (seriously, in ME1 her voice creeps me out) and Tali is... well... she has coffee jitters. And a shotgun. And almost no armors to choose from.

Mmmaybe we should talk later. :smallbiggrin:

Tali and Garrus are without a doubt my favourite characters of the Mass Effect Franchise, so I am personally utterly delighted that it's those two who follow you through the entire trilogy. I also have a hard time seeing how people can *not* like her voice. It's awesome. Though to be honest, I love all Quarians and their voice. I can't think of any one Quarian I don't like, except Han'Gerrel... and even that I'm a bit uncertain because I felt the change to him becoming a gun-totin' maniac in ME3 felt... off. In ME2 he appeared reasonable. A far cry from the guy who starts bombing a geth warship, risking the lives of two, maybe three extremely high-ranking personell to satisfy his own vendetta.

Also these Kaidan/Ashley discussions amuse me. It often feels like people wish they could kill of both back on Virmire.

[Krade]

After playing a few games tonight, I have to say that the multiplayer is much more fun when you basically screw around and just barely manage to pull off the win because you were goofing around too much. Good times.

[Avilan the Grey]

Personality aside, Ash is more useful in the first game, and Kaidan in the third. Seriously, in the third you don't need another glass canon beside Garrus.

[Marnath]

Ashley has interesting sisters.
That's the only thing she has that is "more interesting" than Kaidan. Seriously.

(ME1) Both VS are wooden blocks compared to Garrus or Wrex. Liara is a bit creepy, with a very unsettling voice (seriously, in ME1 her voice creeps me out) and Tali is... well... she has coffee jitters. And a shotgun. And almost no armors to choose from.

It's funny that Tali bounces when she's standing idle. I think if you tied her to a chair she might physically explode from all the pent up energy. :smallamused:


You know, now that I think about it it's weird that the person with the worst constitution score is the most energetic. With as often as she gets sick she shouldn't really have that much energy.

[Psyren]

the right to express opinions at gunpoint. Standing firm militarially in the worst case. The other option is to roll over and let the dictator of the week take over and do what he wants.

Okay, so, this is veering into a 2nd Amendment debate that I'm not about to have, so we'll disagree here.



Alright, that's a bit tricky to put in human comparison, but that always struck me as more of a sense of amazement at the sheer variety of creatures, including intelligent creatures the galaxy has produced. If nothing else the tone of voice is not disdainful, and it feels like a politically incorrect statement of fact.

It's tricky because it's insulting. Just like Private Cumberland calling Turians "the birds." Your attempted whitewash isn't working at all.

"Politically incorrect" is, ironically, the politically correct way to say racist.



Liara is someone that Ashley can almost relate to, similar to how an American would be more comfortable with a Brit than with someone who doesn't speak English.

No, that wasn't the context at all. She makes the comment in a catty way, saying she's surprised Shepard is coming to talk to her when there's blue alien space babe in the medical bay with no regulations in the way. The implication is very much "well, Liara's not really a woman, but she's close enough to get your rocks off and you won't get in trouble with HR, so what are you doing down here?"



Note that that's how she assumed the council saw humanity, not how she saw other races.

So who do Garrus, Tali, Liara and Wrex represent then? The fleas on the dog?



No clue why you found that annoying, but okay.

"Skipper" makes me feel like I'm on Gilligan's Normandy. Kaidan goes from Commander, to Shepard. Ash settles on Skipper, because hurr hurr jarhead.

[McDouggal]

Mmmaybe we should talk later. :smallbiggrin:

Tali and Garrus are without a doubt my favourite characters of the Mass Effect Franchise, so I am personally utterly delighted that it's those two who follow you through the entire trilogy. I also have a hard time seeing how people can *not* like her voice. It's awesome. Though to be honest, I love all Quarians and their voice. I can't think of any one Quarian I don't like, except Han'Gerrel... and even that I'm a bit uncertain because I felt the change to him becoming a gun-totin' maniac in ME3 felt... off. In ME2 he appeared reasonable. A far cry from the guy who starts bombing a geth warship, risking the lives of two, maybe three extremely high-ranking personell to satisfy his own vendetta.

Also these Kaidan/Ashley discussions amuse me. It often feels like people wish they could kill of both back on Virmire.

Regarding Tali's voice: I've been getting migraine headaches due to a new prescription that I'm taking. The warbling is setting them off and giving me stabbing pain.

Keep in mind I was a Talimancer in my first playthrough, and love her character. But I literally CANNOT have her in my team if it isn't absolutely necessary right now. It's like having red hot railroad spikes being driven into my ears by a hammer drill.

[Psyren]

Her voice is what I like most about her. Liz Sroka sounds like pulsating honey to me, she's one of the better VAs in the game. For example, when I romance Garrus and he mentions the Turian chocolate he got from Dr. Michel, Tali's response cracks me up every time.

But for all her brilliance, I just find her too fragile to take on missions or for a romance. It's way cooler to set her up with Garrus anyway.

[Ailurus]

No, that wasn't the context at all. She makes the comment in a catty way, saying she's surprised Shepard is coming to talk to her when there's blue alien space babe in the medical bay with no regulations in the way. The implication is very much "well, Liara's not really a woman, but she's close enough to get your rocks off and you won't get in trouble with HR, so what are you doing down here?"


When the heck does that conversation happen? I've never seen it in dozens of ME1 playthroughs. Is it specific to male shepards who are working on a romance with Ashley and pick up Liara right away or something?




So who do Garrus, Tali, Liara and Wrex represent then? The fleas on the dog?


Well, Asari and Turians pretty much are the council, at least in ME1. But I'm sure Tali really appreciates the fact that there's no discrimination or unfair stereotyping of Quarians throughout Citadel space. And Wrex absolutely loves the way the Council respects what the Krogans have done in the past, and is trying to help them out instead of just treating them like second class citizens and unstable cannon fodder.

Face it. Speciesist opinions are everywhere in ME, both among the humans, and among the other races. Ash is far from the only human to voice them - see (at a minimum) Saracino, Pressley and Mikhailovich in ME1 alone (not to mention all of Cerberus). See the way that Quarians and Krogan are both second-class citizens in 'civilized' areas. Heck, just listen to all the conversations on the Citadel in ME1 about how humanity is getting too uppity, which become even worse in the later games if you don't save the council. Oh, and then there's the Quarian (or, frankly, everyone but Quarians are the worst)/Geth speciesism. And the Prophet on Omega, not to mention the reception you get if you walk through the non-hostile Vorcha sections there. While I can accept not agreeing with her position, don't act like she's some horribly nasty outlier. Because if you wanted to remove all trace of speciesism you might as well just call in the Reapers.

[Psyren]

When the heck does that conversation happen? I've never seen it in dozens of ME1 playthroughs. Is it specific to male shepards who are working on a romance with Ashley and pick up Liara right away or something?

Yeah it's part of Ashmance. It's during the "scuttlebutt" conversation.


Well, Asari and Turians pretty much are the council, at least in ME1. But I'm sure Tali really appreciates the fact that there's no discrimination or unfair stereotyping of Quarians throughout Citadel space. And Wrex absolutely loves the way the Council respects what the Krogans have done in the past, and is trying to help them out instead of just treating them like second class citizens and unstable cannon fodder.

That's nice and all but really has nothing to do with Ash's attitude, nor does it excuse it.



Face it. Speciesist opinions are everywhere in ME, both among the humans, and among the other races. Ash is far from the only human to voice them - see (at a minimum) Saracino, Pressley and Mikhailovich in ME1 alone (not to mention all of Cerberus).

You know who doesn't feel that way? Kaidan. Anderson. Paragon Shep. There's no excuse for Ashley, sorry.

She may not be an outlier, but if the best defense you can come up with is "well, other people are racist too," then color me unimpressed.

[Tiki Snakes]

See? Even from the point of view of criticising her and picking over her faults, she's still the more interesting of the two. :smallwink:

[Ailurus]

\
That's nice and all but really has nothing to do with Ash's attitude, nor does it excuse it.

Go back and listen to what she actually says instead of just assuming you're justified. Seriously. Here's a link if you want it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssIxgwFyu54) Start at 40 seconds if you want to jump right to the dog/bear quote (in which, actually, she's saying the council would treat humanity like a dog, not that aliens are dogs).

She says she thinks the Council will just cut humanity off and throw them to the wolves as soon as something bad happens. And guess what? That's what happened historically. The Quarians are off wandering the galaxy in exile since the mess with the Geth. The Krogan were near-genocided and are pretty much reduced to either living on an irradiated, desert rock or serving as cannon fodder. And in ME2 and ME3, the Council functionally does write off Humanity to focus on their own interests, just like Ash predicts they'll do.





You know who doesn't feel that way? Kaidan. Anderson. Paragon Shep. There's no excuse for Ashley, sorry.

*gasp* people have different opinions than me! What a shock!

Her opinion is representative of a large part of a galaxy, and is much more mild than many of them too. And despite her opinion, she flat-out tells Shepard she's got no problem working with side-by-side with aliens. But, I guess having a difference of opinion with you is worth killing off a character, so more power to you.

[Psyren]

The Council does do that - but that is because they are politicians, not because they're aliens. That's why she's wrong - she fails to make that distinction in the entire conversation. "I'm not sure I'd call the council races 'allies','" she says. You'll note that Udina was just as quick to throw Shepard to the wolves once he had the political clout he wanted, and he's no alien. Are you beginning to get it?

In ME2/ME3, bypassing the bureaucrats and going straight to the military or to unaffiliated groups gets you get plenty of help. Aria, the Corsairs, Primarch Victus, Kirrahe - see the difference?



*gasp* people have different opinions than me! What a shock!

I'm faulting her opinion because it's reprehensible and short-sighted, not because it's different. And I could give a flying frigate how many other people share it besides her, it's still wrong.

[McDouggal]

Her voice is what I like most about her. Liz Sroka sounds like pulsating honey to me, she's one of the better VAs in the game. For example, when I romance Garrus and he mentions the Turian chocolate he got from Dr. Michel, Tali's response cracks me up every time.

But for all her brilliance, I just find her too fragile to take on missions or for a romance. It's way cooler to set her up with Garrus anyway.

Oh, don't get me wrong. The voice and the voice acting is AMAZING, and her character feels spot on. There's a reason why I completely ignored all other romance options in ME1 in my first playthrough; Neither Liara nor Ashley really interested me compared to Tali.

It's just the voice is at just the wrong pitch and warble to put me into major pain right now. Should be fine in a week or two though.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I'm faulting her opinion because it's reprehensible and short-sighted, not because it's different. And I could give a flying frigate how many other people share it besides her, it's still wrong.

I feel this is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. The idea is to judge Ash as a character, not judge Ash's character, no?



See? Even from the point of view of criticising her and picking over her faults, she's still the more interesting of the two. :smallwink:

And that's why I prefer Ash over Kaidan. At least she's interesting. Personally, I rank Kaidan even below Jacob. With Jacob I felt there was a fairly well-executed "total bro" camaraderie going between him and Shep. I never took him on missions, but at least I enjoyed chatting with him. Kaidan I feel indifferent to at almost every turn.

[Psyren]

I feel this is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. The idea is to judge Ash as a character, not judge Ash's character, no?

So her character is irrelevant to her character? :smallconfused:



And that's why I prefer Ash over Kaidan. At least she's interesting.

And we're back to this meme again :smallsigh: It's like the past page and a half didn't even happen.

[Tiki Snakes]

And we're back to this meme again :smallsigh: It's like the past page and a half didn't even happen.

Nothing happened on the last page that made it any less true.

[Psyren]

Nothing happened on the last page that made it any less true.

And yet none of you have shown me anything that makes Ashley interesting that isn't attached to her torso.

"I have sisters"
"I'm worried about my family legacy"
"I don't trust aliens"

All those things are external to her. And it's all cookie-cutter. A military family that's close-knit because they move around a lot, ooh, that's so groundbreaking. A soldier than leans conservative - again, completely mind-blowing innovation there.

Whereas Kaidan was a first-gen subject, practically a lab rat, who came out of a very traumatic experience with honor and idealism. His fear at losing control stems both from guilt over taking a life by accident and from the reaction of the person he was protecting. He got a hard dose of reality to end his romantic visions of what space would be like, growing up in Canada.

He could have easily been like Ash and mistrusted aliens - hell, he had way more reason to, since the first alien he ever met tried to kill him - but he didn't. He could have also mistrusted his military and become disillusioned with serving, for the pain they threw him into with Conatix (not to mention the constant, ongoing pain from his implants - he didn't do that either. He came away from both as the better man. And that is and will always be more interesting to me. Whereas Ashley hadn't even met any aliens before serving on the military, yet had made up her mind about them.

So call Kaidan bland all you like simply because he has a strong, straight-laced character. I'll be over here keeping him on the ship, on my squad, and pitying you.

[Tiki Snakes]

Everything interesting about Kaiden happens and is resolved in his backstory. There is no I going drama, no room for character growth and the personality it forged is flat and uninspiring.

Simply put, if you dialled his timeline backwards and had young, conflicted kaiden on the Normandy instead, then at least there would be something going on. He'd still probably be yawn inducing, but at least there would be something actually happening.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

So her character is irrelevant to her character? :smallconfused:

Hmm. I guess I misspoke. Not irrelevant, but certainly a... derailment of sorts. Her having personality flaws (her character) is a different affair from how interesting she is as a fictional character (her as a character). One certainly has bearing on the other, but Ash being a big ole racist* doesn't make her strictly worse in her measure as a fictional character.

*A debatable point, but not the original point being discussed, yes?


And we're back to this meme again :smallsigh: It's like the past page and a half didn't even happen.

What can I say? I have yet to read much that convinces me that Kaidan is something approaching a person with hopes and dreams, hobbies, likes and dislikes, and flaws and/or greatnesses of character.

[Mordokai]

And yet none of you have shown me anything that makes Ashley interesting that isn't attached to her torso.

Ok, that made me laugh out loud for real.

But, for what is worth, I agree with you. Of the two, Kaidan is better, personality and power wise.

Now I'll just be sitting here and paying attention to this rather interesting debate.

[Psyren]

The only thing Ashley has that could be remotely considered "ongoing drama" is her family name, which gets cleared anyway if you vaporize her (she gets Star of Terra, the Salarian Silver Dagger and the Turian Nova Cluster, being the first human ever to win either of the latter) so I did as much to resolve that as you.

Kaidan's at peace with his past and his choices. Not everyone on the ship needs to be dragging several tons of baggage in through the airlock with them, y'know?

And of course he's got flaws. He's doesn't trust Udina and is worried about being taken in by him, but he wants to serve humanity - which naturally, causes him to be taken in by Udina. And if it weren't for Shepard showing up at the right time, being nice and inspiring loyalty, he would have gotten the Council killed. It's the same trap Ashley falls into. They're both flawed, but trying. So I don't see how you can rate one over the other. Based on what? A sister we never see, and wouldn't matter even if we did? Sound bytes from some poems?


Ash being a big ole racist* doesn't make her strictly worse in her measure as a fictional character.

It does if that's the only thing about her that's interesting.

[Tiki Snakes]

The only thing Ashley has that could be remotely considered "ongoing drama" is her family name, which gets cleared anyway if you vaporize her (she gets Star of Terra, the Salarian Silver Dagger and the Turian Nova Cluster, being the first human ever to win either of the latter) so I did as much to resolve that as you.

Well, let's see?
Family name. Father issues relating to this. Stalled career despite competence, self belief/self worth issues, relationship with sister and racist beliefs as hold-over from family history as front liners in the first contact war.

All of which are set up but not resolved as issues at the point which you meet her, all of which you get to deal with and wrestle with on-camera during the game and/or that she deals with through the course of her off-camera time between games and away from the various normandy's.

And her voice actor has more presence.

None of which relate at all to her physical appearence and/or gender, mind you.

[Psyren]

What do you mean "wrestle with?" It's resolved - she went from crap postings to the most advanced ship in the navy in the blink of an eye. Anderson and Shepard both review her service history and decide she's competent. What does she struggle with? Who talks down to her or mistreats her because of what happened to her grandfather? Who treats her any differently than any other human on the ship? The answer is no one. Her arc is every bit as done as Kaidan's - it ended when the prologue did. Your belief that there is more there is an illusion, nothing more.

And even if that weren't somehow enough, nuking her definitely takes her family the rest of the way.

[RagingKrikkit]

EDIT: Wow, I got ninja'd 11 times...


Okay, so, this is veering into a 2nd Amendment debate that I'm not about to have, so we'll disagree here.

You're the one who took it there. I was aiming at military policy.


"Politically incorrect" is, ironically, the politically correct way to say racist.

There is, however, a difference between racist in word and racist in heart. I have a nasty habbit of saying the most horrible things while meaning something good, and you probably already have a comeback.


No, that wasn't the context at all. She makes the comment in a catty way, saying she's surprised Shepard is coming to talk to her when there's blue alien space babe in the medical bay with no regulations in the way. The implication is very much "well, Liara's not really a woman, but she's close enough to get your rocks off and you won't get in trouble with HR, so what are you doing down here?"

*facepalm* Okay, that conversation. In that case, what's the problem?


So who do Garrus, Tali, Liara and Wrex represent then? The fleas on the dog?

Adressed by Ailurus.


"Skipper" makes me feel like I'm on Gilligan's Normandy. Kaidan goes from Commander, to Shepard. Ash settles on Skipper, because hurr hurr jarhead.

Well, to each his own. I think, however, that it's asign of her confidence in Shepard; how many COs has she called "skipper" in her carrer? Can somebody make a ReneShep and see if her behavior changes?


She may not be an outlier, but if the best defense you can come up with is "well, other people are racist too," then color me unimpressed.

Okay, let's apply that to abortion, gay marriage, and everything else a society has taken a standpoint on.


See? Even from the point of view of criticising her and picking over her faults, she's still the more interesting of the two. :smallwink:

Ooh, good one.


The Council does do that - but that is because they are politicians, not because they're aliens. That's why she's wrong - she fails to make that distinction in the entire conversation. "I'm not sure I'd call the council races 'allies','" she says.

Yeah, and if this had been on earth, she would have said the Council "nations". Once again we find ourselves on that line between racism and nationalism.


You'll note that Udina was just as quick to throw Shepard to the wolves once he had the political clout he wanted, and he's no alien.

Yes, and Udina hated Shepard's guts from the start, so small wonder.


Are you beginning to get it?

There are some... implications to that question that this discussion would be much better off without.


In ME2/ME3, bypassing the bureaucrats and going straight to the military or to unaffiliated groups gets you get plenty of help. Aria, the Corsairs, Primarch Victus, Kirrahe - see the difference?

Let me play one of your cards here; what does that have to do with Ash?


I'm faulting her opinion because it's reprehensible and short-sighted, not because it's different. And I could give a flying frigate how many other people share it besides her, it's still wrong.

And that's what makes Ashley so interesting. Bioware deliberately created a flawed character, and the fanbase was divided between those who look into and past her flaws to truly examine her, and those who pass her off as "racism religion* poetry blah. Mushroom cloud."

*Hardly


And yet none of you have shown me anything that makes Ashley interesting that isn't attached to her torso.

Any straight women willing to chip in?


So call Kaidan bland all you like simply because he has a strong, straight-laced character. I'll be over here keeping him on the ship, on my squad, and pitying you.

Pity is not the vibe I've been getting from you.


And of course he's got flaws. He's doesn't trust Udina

For good reason, as it turns out.


and is worried about being taken in by him, but he wants to serve humanity - which naturally, causes him to be taken in by Udina.

As Mark Twain put it: "Patriotism is supporting your country always and your government when it deserves it."


And if it weren't for Shepard showing up at the right time, being nice and inspiring loyalty,

Sometimes


he would have gotten the Council killed. It's the same trap Ashley falls into. They're both flawed, but trying. So I don't see how you can rate one over the other. Based on what? A sister we never see, and wouldn't matter even if we did? Sound bytes from some poems?

I wasn't. You were.


What do you mean "wrestle with?" It's resolved - she went from crap postings to the most advanced ship in the navy in the blink of an eye. Anderson and Shepard both review her service history and decide she's competent.

Anderson does. Shep, not nesecarrily [sic].


And even if that weren't somehow enough, nuking her definitely takes her family the rest of the way.

And there you are, advocating murder.

[Psyren]

*facepalm* Okay, that conversation. In that case, what's the problem?

You mean what's the problem with treating Liara like she's an interactive RealDoll?



Okay, let's apply that to abortion, gay marriage, and everything else a society has taken a standpoint on.

"Societies" don't take stands on issues like that. People within those societies do, and they should be judged individually. Just like I'm judging her (rather than all humans) for her views on race.



Yeah, and if this had been on earth, she would have said the Council "nations". Once again we find ourselves on that line between racism and nationalism.

She could have simply said "The Council." As in, the three individual bureaucrats stymieing Shepard. Not the races for which they stand.

As we saw clearly in ME3, other members, even leaders, within a race can disagree strenuously with their elected officials. Particularly the military vs. the politicians.



Yes, and Udina hated Shepard's guts from the start, so small wonder.

So you agree then that she is wrong, and it has nothing to do with race? That any politician will sic the dog on the bear to get away, even a human politician?



Let me play one of your cards here; what does that have to do with Ash?


She believes their attitude towards you is because you're a different race - when in reality it's because you're a soldier and they are bureaucrats. This is why the other soldiers/non-politicians - like the names I mentioned - are willing to help you when they are not. Race has nothing to do with it. Ashley is wrong.


And that's what makes Ashley so interesting. Bioware deliberately created a flawed character, and the fanbase was divided between those who look into and past her flaws to truly examine her, and those who pass her off as "racism religion* poetry blah. Mushroom cloud."

What you're doing is less "looking past" her flaws and more "closing your eyes to them." That's what we're discussing here, not any nuances of her character. I haven't learned a single new thing about her since this discussion started, and I have yet to see any evidence of her so-called struggle - which again, ended on Eden Prime.



Anderson does. Shep, not nesecarrily [sic].

Even if your Shep doesn't like her, that doesn't change the point. She proved herself to an N7 Admiral and got a top-tier post. Williams curse lifted. She could have died on Noveria and that still would have been that.

(I'm confused about the "sic" -did you intentionally mangle the spelling there?)



And there you are, advocating murder.

Nah - just pointing out that wanting to help her clear her family name is no reason to keep her alive, because she does that regardless.

[Ailurus]

Based on what? A sister we never see, and wouldn't matter even if we did? Sound bytes from some poems?


I'll just leave this here, along with another request that you actually confirm what you're talking about before you say it. (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Citadel_memorial_-_ash_and_sarah.png)

[Psyren]

I'll just leave this here, along with another request that you actually confirm what you're talking about before you say it. (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Citadel_memorial_-_ash_and_sarah.png)

That looks an awful lot like ME3 (i.e. after Virmire, when keeping her or not has already been decided), not ME1.

[Ailurus]

That looks an awful lot like ME3 (i.e. after Virmire, when keeping her or not has already been decided), not ME1.

Well, since the previous sentence was about the ME3 incidents I thought you meant the whole series. Fair enough, we don't see the sisters in ME1, you'll just have to settle for hearing one of them, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGkD0xsEmto) which is about as good as you would expect to get since a top-of-the-line stealth warship is not a place for civilians. (and, yes, that one is before Virmire. If you're playing Femshep, the sister will say Kaiden is cute).

[Psyren]

I know you overhear her sister in ME1, that's nothing new. That doesn't make Ashley interesting.

[Ailurus]

So why bother making the claim that we don't see or hear from her family in the first place?

[McDouggal]

Hey guys? We have been discussing this for most of this thread now. Could we maybe move onto something that doesn't inspire such strident feelings?

If we could just agree to disagree and stop restating the exact same points and counterpoints, maybe we can move onto something that inspires less conflict... Like maybe Battlefield vs. CoD, LoL vs. DotA 2, Mac vs. PC, Console gaming vs. PC gaming, or even Democrats vs. Republicans.

Seriously, neither side is making headway at this point. Neither side is interested in giving ground either. You are bashing your heads against a concrete rebar wall, and it has long since lost its popcorn value.

[Maryring]

Oh, don't get me wrong. The voice and the voice acting is AMAZING, and her character feels spot on. There's a reason why I completely ignored all other romance options in ME1 in my first playthrough; Neither Liara nor Ashley really interested me compared to Tali.

It's just the voice is at just the wrong pitch and warble to put me into major pain right now. Should be fine in a week or two though.

A pity, though understandable. There's a certain kind of reverb caused by the quarian suits that can be quite grating. Especially over long periods of time.

Still think the quarian dialect is awesome though.

[Leon]

Everything else is so soft and squishy when you have played through 2 games as a Uber-Tank Sentinel. Been recently playing as an Adept and man Quick Saves are my friends as i end up dead quite often.

[RagingKrikkit]

Hey guys? We have been discussing this for most of this thread now. Could we maybe move onto something that doesn't inspire such strident feelings?

If we could just agree to disagree and stop restating the exact same points and counterpoints, maybe we can move onto something that inspires less conflict... Like maybe Battlefield vs. CoD, LoL vs. DotA 2, Mac vs. PC, Console gaming vs. PC gaming, or even Democrats vs. Republicans.

Seriously, neither side is making headway at this point. Neither side is interested in giving ground either. You are bashing your heads against a concrete rebar wall, and it has long since lost its popcorn value.

Okay, then.

Garrus or Wrex, guys?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, then.

Garrus or Wrex, guys?

Hey, that's pretty touchy. Maybe we should talk about the ending again.

[Tiki Snakes]

Okay, then.

Garrus or Wrex, guys?

Both whenever possible, really. They are my dudes.

But if forced to pick between them? Garrus, for the simple reason that he has the skills needed in ME1 to do all the unlocking necessary and appears in the future games as a squadmate too. And on top of that, he is also Garrus.

I love Wrex, but the fact that he was never a regular squadmate after that loses him points.

(But oh man, the citadel dlc arena where you can pick from non squadmate characters to fight alongside? Going in as a soldier with both Grunt and Wrex is hilarious fun. You've got to feel bad for the holograms.)

[Maryring]

Okay, then.

Garrus or Wrex, guys?

Grunt is hotter.

Though between the two of them... I think I prefer Garrus. Wrex has his own charm. But there's just something about his "heh heh" that makes him feel so... bored. Like he doesn't care for anything at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

I love Wrex, but the fact that he was never a regular squadmate after that loses him points.

(But oh man, the citadel dlc arena where you can pick from non squadmate characters to fight alongside? Going in as a soldier with both Grunt and Wrex is hilarious fun. You've got to feel bad for the holograms.)

Oh man, that was the first thing I tried. Utter. Devastation. Those combat simulations never stood a chance!

I also loved Wrex's entrance, crashing onto a shuttle filled with evil mercenaries and tossing them overboard! That made me SO happy.

Yeah, Wrex is probably my all-time favorite character from anything ever. Grunt comes in as a close second.



.........

Still sad about no krogan squadmate in ME3. Dammit, James. :smallsigh:

[Dienekes]

I can't pick. Wrex? Garrus? Space Conan or Space Batman?


Still sad about no krogan squadmate in ME3. Dammit, James. :smallsigh:

I'm still waiting for an elchor squadmate.

[Mordokai]

You are bashing your heads against a concrete rebar wall, and it has long since lost its popcorn value.

Speak for yourself, the popcorn has never been sweeter for me :smallbiggrin:

[RagingKrikkit]

Both whenever possible, really. They are my dudes.


I also loved Wrex's entrance, crashing onto a shuttle filled with evil mercenaries and tossing them overboard! That made me SO happy.

You know you've created a fan favorite when you can have him jump through a window, kick a quintet of rear ends, then proceed to give a handwave answer as to why he was on the space station, much less in the area, and nobody cares.

That said, mowing through a skycar lot with the old gang all back together again was worth fifteen bucks just for that feeling.

[Avilan the Grey]

You know you've created a fan favorite when you can have him jump through a window, kick a quintet of rear ends, then proceed to give a handwave answer as to why he was on the space station, much less in the area, and nobody cares.

That said, mowing through a skycar lot with the old gang all back together again was worth fifteen bucks just for that feeling.

The last fight in the DLC I bring Wrex and EDI. (I take Wrex through all the fights, for obvious reasons).
The reason is that I... enjoy... her being thoroughly PISSED OFF. She is probably even angrier than Shepard. Plus her reboot sequence in the skycar is hillarious.

[SiuiS]

Ladies, ladies, please! We all know I'm the prettiest, so we can stop this pageant already.


What does Ashley do that's so "resonant?" Blah blah racism religion poems blah. Mushroom cloud.

You're mistaking tribalism for racism.
Or is Wrex racist? The council?


There is plenty of depth to Kaidan, and it's sad that so few are willing to pay attention to it. (Maybe if he had boobs...?)


I agree with depth to Kaidan, but seriously, is that your best counter? "You disagree with me, you must just be slavering over some tits"? Please.


"I had racist tendencies, now I don't" isn't much of an arc to me. You'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to stay a xenophobe on the Normandy.

Isn't that basically what happened to Kaidan? Is it deeper if it's past?


Sweet Arceus, I... never mind, I'm not going to say that.

Instead I'll say that you are fundamentally misunderstanding Ashley. Nothing of her own making? How about not only surpassing her father by ME1, but by ME3 having earned a commision and rising up to equal rank with Shepard? She's not anti-alien, she's pro-human, and if you hadn't dropped a nuke on her, you would have had the chance to see her meet the terra firma party's new canidate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B461srREAos). I am a patriot, I believe that America is the best country in the world and anyone who messes with us should and will get a boot up his ass. Does that make me anti-everyone who's not American?

Stay away from Politics and Making Arguments About Yourself, please. I would not like to see this thread locked.


I feel like my decision to play a game where I let ashley live just to see her side and announcing that has caused a lot of argument here ):

Sorry :smallfrown:
Personally, I let her die because it made sense. Ash was a soldier, who would do a soldiers duty, die a soldier's death and reap a soldier's honor. Kaidan was that guy who desperately needed a psychological anchor but was too Man to be open about it. It would have been irresponsible to save Ashley over Kaidan. Ashley dying accomplished something. Kaidan dying would have been a waste of a rifleman.


After playing a few games tonight, I have to say that the multiplayer is much more fun when you basically screw around and just barely manage to pull off the win because you were goofing around too much. Good times.

Exactly! I miss those days.


It's funny that Tali bounces when she's standing idle. I think if you tied her to a chair she might physically explode from all the pent up energy. :smallamused:

You know, now that I think about it it's weird that the person with the worst constitution score is the most energetic. With as often as she gets sick she shouldn't really have that much energy.

It's a coded-feminine trait. It makes her more girly and youthful.

And con score? Uh? She survives diseases that would racist others, she's got a great con score. She just has susceptibility to disease.

That's like saying a dwarf can't have allergies, or a dragon can't have an autoimmune disease.


Nothing happened on the last page that made it any less true.

:smallbiggrin:

Conversely, calling something a meme doesn't make it one, nor does it invalidate the thing called such.

[RagingKrikkit]

The last fight in the DLC I bring Wrex and EDI. (I take Wrex through all the fights, for obvious reasons).
The reason is that I... enjoy... her being thoroughly PISSED OFF. She is probably even angrier than Shepard. Plus her reboot sequence in the skycar is hillarious.

Huh, you know, I never tried that out. *Adds to to-do list*

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm still waiting for an elchor squadmate.

Hmm... I'd probably rather have a hanar than monotone elephant man. Squadmates get a lot of screen time, after all.

[Avilan the Grey]

Hmm... I'd probably rather have a hanar than monotone elephant man. Squadmates get a lot of screen time, after all.

"Badassfully: Say Hello To My Little Friend!"

(Opening fire with a back-mounted VI-controlled heavy gun turret, the kind you control in ME3).

[Psyren]

Hey, that's pretty touchy. Maybe we should talk about the ending again.

Welcome back!


The last fight in the DLC I bring Wrex and EDI. (I take Wrex through all the fights, for obvious reasons).
The reason is that I... enjoy... her being thoroughly PISSED OFF. She is probably even angrier than Shepard. Plus her reboot sequence in the skycar is hillarious.

I generally bring her simply because it makes sense. It gives us two lines of communication to the ship (the clone might be able to disable our omnitool communication with her, but not the sexbot tightbeam, or vice-versa.)

Kind of silly that the Clone was able to so easily take her offline, but plot I guess.



I agree with depth to Kaidan, but seriously, is that your best counter? "You disagree with me, you must just be slavering over some tits"? Please.

It's literally the only reason for this rampant bias I could think of.



Isn't that basically what happened to Kaidan? Is it deeper if it's past?

What? No - Kaidan never had any racial hangups, either before or after BAaT.

[Avilan the Grey]

I generally bring her simply because it makes sense. It gives us two lines of communication to the ship (the clone might be able to disable our omnitool communication with her, but not the sexbot tightbeam, or vice-versa.)

Kind of silly that the Clone was able to so easily take her offline, but plot I guess.


Why? She lives in the mainframe. The mainframe can be turned off manually. Or rebooted. Of course normal peopel won't do this because quite frankly without computer assistance the Normandy is less awesomesauce and more 1 week old gravy.

As a sidenote I find it interesting (and so does SHE, if I read her reaction right) that she survives only in her body. "I exist primarely within the ship's computers" is her original statement, and she seems genuinely surprised when she honestly can promise Joker she is okay (only being able to reside in Dr Eva's body), after rebooting in the Skycar.

[McDouggal]

It's a coded-feminine trait. It makes her more girly and youthful.

And con score? Uh? She survives diseases that would racist others, she's got a great con score. She just has susceptibility to disease.

That's like saying a dwarf can't have allergies, or a dragon can't have an autoimmune disease.

I think you may have accidentally a word.

[Psyren]

Why? She lives in the mainframe. The mainframe can be turned off manually. Or rebooted. Of course normal peopel won't do this because quite frankly without computer assistance the Normandy is less awesomesauce and more 1 week old gravy.

Yeah but she literally became the ship; you'd think she'd have some way of bricking it too. After all they were about to kidnap her, that's when you pull out all the stops.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah but she literally became the ship; you'd think she'd have some way of bricking it too. After all they were about to kidnap her, that's when you pull out all the stops.

Not if the switch is purely mechanical.

[RagingKrikkit]

As a sidenote I find it interesting (and so does SHE, if I read her reaction right) that she survives only in her body. "I exist primarely within the ship's computers" is her original statement, and she seems genuinely surprised when she honestly can promise Joker she is okay (only being able to reside in Dr Eva's body), after rebooting in the Skycar.

Something similar happens if you take her to the surface of Rannoch. She begins to stutter and repeat herself for a few seconds before the onboard software takes over. Maybe it's like that newfangled "render-your-graphics-on-our-servers-and-stream-them-to-you" thing.


It's literally the only reason for this rampant bias I could think of.

I can't decide if I should find it funny or offensive that we defend a character (we did NOT say she was better than Kadien) and you immedeately assume that we are slobering over breasts.

[SiuiS]

"Badassfully: Say Hello To My Little Friend!"

(Opening fire with a back-mounted VI-controlled heavy gun turret, the kind you control in ME3).

See, you'd be halfway through the mission before he finished his first witty comment, though. Totally ruins the flow. Unless...

"With witticism and timeliness: It looks as if he wasn't prepared after all, commande– STOP LAUGHING"


I think you may have accidentally a word.

Hahahaha yeah. And I can't remember what word I was using in the first place either. Ravage? Maybe. Haha!


Not if the switch is purely mechanical.

True. But then, all of mass effect tech falls apart like that. The impregnable villain is the one who uses door knobs and turns off his wifi.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can't decide if I should find it funny or offensive that we defend a character (we did NOT say she was better than Kadien) and you immedeately assume that we are slobering over breasts.

It's pretty offensive, but then again, this is an internet argument. It just wouldn't be right for one side not to resort to ad hominem non sequiturs because "it was the only reason...I could think of" for someone to disagree with them.


True. But then, all of mass effect tech falls apart like that. The impregnable villain is the one who uses door knobs and turns off his wifi.

I guess that's why the Reapers put in a physical button to open their galactic backdoor. Too bad their button-pressers were themselves hackable.

[KillianHawkeye]

"Badassfully: Say Hello To My Little Friend!"

(Opening fire with a back-mounted VI-controlled heavy gun turret, the kind you control in ME3).

Okay, if it's going to be something like an elcor version of Duke Nukem spouting cheesy action movie one-liners, that would be pretty awesome. I'm sold. :smallamused:

"Apologetically: I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of gum." :smallcool:

[Avilan the Grey]

Okay, if it's going to be something like an elcor version of Duke Nukem spouting cheesy action movie one-liners, that would be pretty awesome. I'm sold. :smallamused:

"Apologetically: I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of gum." :smallcool:

Reminds me of the stated fact in game that Shepard can threaten to break the bones of a member of a species strong enough to punch through spaceship bulkheads... and the receiver of said threat takes her seriously.

[RagingKrikkit]

Well, s/he is carrying an assortment of heavy weaponry, and is potentially a biotic, so there is some credibility there.

[Maryring]

Also, she can kill a reaper. On foot.

Shepard's badass.

[Ailurus]

Well, s/he is carrying an assortment of heavy weaponry, and is potentially a biotic, so there is some credibility there.

Plus the genetic enhancements that all Alliance soliders get, plus being a cyborg...

[Psyren]

It's pretty offensive, but then again, this is an internet argument. It just wouldn't be right for one side not to resort to ad hominem non sequiturs because "it was the only reason...I could think of" for someone to disagree with them.

You tell me then what conclusions I should draw from arguments like:

"I don't like Kaidan, he's boring."
"Why is he boring?"
"I dunno, he just is. Ashley is much more interesting."
"What makes her interesting?"
"I dunno, she just is." / "She said some stupidly racist stuff, therefore she's a flawed and complex character."

I do know it's not the boobs, but again, there's little else to fall back on.



I guess that's why the Reapers put in a physical button to open their galactic backdoor.

Did this arouse anyone else? No? Just me?


Not if the switch is purely mechanical.

She can wirelessly put the fusion plant in meltdown though. She can't stall the ignition before they get there or something?

I mean, it wouldn't even matter if she broke something, the ship would need repairs anyway.

[Nerd-o-rama]

"I don't like Kaidan, he's boring."
"Why is he boring?"
"I dunno, he just is. Ashley is much more interesting."
"What makes her interesting?"
"I dunno, she just is." / "She said some stupidly racist stuff, therefore she's a flawed and complex character."

We've told you repeatedly why he's boring. He has no character arc in-game. It's literally all in his backstory, and he has nowhere further to develop during the course of the games. He's just there, fait accompli. That works alright for mentor characters, but not ones who stick around for 120 hours of story, 60 of them as a teammate. At least not for me. You're either not reading these statements or choosing to believe that they are false and presenting a strawman argument instead.

Also again he creeps me out in a femshep romance capacity, but that's a personal taste thing.

[Marnath]

Reminds me of the stated fact in game that Shepard can threaten to break the bones of a member of a species strong enough to punch through spaceship bulkheads... and the receiver of said threat takes her seriously.

Well, they may be sturdy, but they're also seriously slow. If you wanted to hurt one they probably wouldn't be fast enough to fight back or escape.



She can wirelessly put the fusion plant in meltdown though. She can't stall the ignition before they get there or something?

I mean, it wouldn't even matter if she broke something, the ship would need repairs anyway.

Don't forget that the SR2 was designed to be impervious to her attempts to compromise vital systems. Back when the A.I. blocks were in place she couldn't affect any of the systems except for her own cyber-warfare suite. All the mercs had to do was flip the switch that Joker hit in the engine room to lock her out of all systems. From there she would have been helpless to prevent her power from being turned off.

[Tiki Snakes]

You tell me then what conclusions I should draw from arguments like:

"I don't like Kaidan, he's boring."
"Why is he boring?"
"I dunno, he just is. Ashley is much more interesting."
"What makes her interesting?"
"I dunno, she just is." / "She said some stupidly racist stuff, therefore she's a flawed and complex character.".

No idea. Not that it particularly matters, given that no-one is making those arguments. :smallsmile:

Kaiden is boring for very specific reasons;
His voice actor and general personality. That is, he is mild, understated, lacking in strong emotions or opinions or reactions. As a performance, he simply is a small, quiet one. He isn't even particularly visually distinctive.
He is also boring because all of his conflicts, all of his "baggage" and his issues and his indecision happens in his back-story and is entirely resolved before you ever meet him. The closest he comes to character growth is hearing about it retrospectively. He is otherwise constant and unchanging throughout, with nothing for him to go on and do or solve or learn. No significant hopes or dreams or fears.
He just gets migraines sometimes, apparently.

Ashley, when you meet her, has some stuff in her backstory as well. She comes pre-packaged with tales about why her career had stalled, the whole issue regarding her father and her sister and some ingrained distrust and low level dislike of non-humans. However, these are to some degree ongoing issues whose status changes as you go through the game. Shepherd can confront her regarding her apparently anti-alien attitude, which provokes a clarification but also at least a little growth. You talk through some of her issues, you are instrumental in her career re-starting essentially and you can clearly see the two possible paths she can take, even before making the virmire choice.
Either you allow her belief that she has no worth, no potential to go on to do good things to be validated by letting her throw her life away, or you say that she has value and you save her and if you do she goes on to do better, she discards the lack of self worth and goes on to take on the kind of jobs shepherd once did between ME1 and ME2's actual start, and by ME3 the girl who was prepared to die because she honestly believed she would never amount to anything has become the second ever human spectre.

And to come full circle, her voice acting is, if not top notch, at least less whispery. She has stronger opinions and a clearer tone of voice.

She's still dull and uninteresting compared to the ME1 alien crewmembers, both as a character and as a voice-acting performance. But I do not find it surprising that by the point of Mass Effect 3 the statistics show that people prefer her by something like 1.5 to 5. (Though if I remember the stats, it's worth pointing out that between them they still finish behind any other ME3 team-mate. Even including Vega.)

But as someone said earlier, there's not going to be any movement on this, so I'll probably leave it at that for a thread or so. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

He has no character arc in-game.

First off, by that measure neither does Ashley, so that point is no point at all. "Oh but she was racist, now she's not." No, she just stopped talking about it. That's not an arc, especially since it doesn't matter whether you talk to her or not, or even what you say if you do. You can have Shepard be like "oh totally, I'd kick all these filthy animals off the ship if I could, but it's a multilateral mission" and it won't make a lick of difference to how she acts in later in ME1 or in the subsequent games. So again I ask, what arc does Ashley supposedly have?

Second, Kaidan does change. He goes from unassuming, unsure of himself, willing to follow Shepard in anything, even to the point of committing treason to stop Saren - and then standing up to you, disagreeing vehemently with the direction you've taken, becoming his own man and a metoric rise through the Alliance ranks (he outranks YOU by the time ME3 rolls around, though of course that means little to the Spectres) and becoming the leader he was meant to be, and finally to contrition, remorse and redemption, coming back to your side to get the job done.



You're either not reading these statements or choosing to believe that they are false and presenting a strawman argument instead.

Read and responded, your move.



Also again he creeps me out in a femshep romance capacity, but that's a personal taste thing.

All of FemShep's romances that are not Garrus do indeed suck ass. It's just part of the underlying problem of most writers being dudes and having no idea how to write for a female protagonist. I don't see how that's Kaidan's fault either (or what makes it "creepy") to be honest. Stilted, absolutely - The man's clearly gay and going through the motions.

[Nerd-o-rama]

First off, by that measure neither does Ashley, so that point is no point at all. "Oh but she was racist, now she's not." No, she just stopped talking about it. That's not an arc, especially since it doesn't matter whether you talk to her or not, or even what you say if you do. You can have Shepard be like "oh totally, I'd kick all these filthy animals off the ship if I could, but it's a multilateral mission" and it won't make a lick of difference to how she acts in later in ME1 or in the subsequent games. So again I ask, what arc does Ashley supposedly have?

Let me qualify this first by saying that other than the respective hidden depths from backstory, neither human squadmate is very interesting in ME1. Most of what's interesting is her marine-ly walking the line between following orders and wanting to punch the people giving them, and the way she interacts with the frankly mostly alien squad. Given the **** she says in a few of her conversations, it's frankly amazing how she warms up to (for the best example) Tali, or her running commentary on the political situations you run into. For Kaidan's part, in my experience, he pretty much gets "hey I'm also an L2 biotic you don't see me taking hostages" in one sidequest and one elevator convo with Liara about asari biotics and that's about it.

In ME2 and 3, she has the arc you quote for Kaidan, with the added emotional note of the broken pedestal - Ash is a capable but green NCO at the start, and someone who looks up to Shep regardless of background (though War Hero gets some damn near fangirly lines out of her, from personal experience). As of the second game and beginning of the third, she has to deal with Shepard's seeming betrayal and figuring out the right thing for herself. She knows sometimes people do insane-seeming things for the right reasons, she knows it intimately, but she has to learn to get over her own extremely headstrong nature and general paranoia to see what Shepard is doing and trust her again.


Second, Kaidan does change. He goes from unassuming, unsure of himself, willing to follow Shepard in anything, even to the point of committing treason to stop Saren - and then standing up to you, disagreeing vehemently with the direction you've taken, becoming his own man and a metoric rise through the Alliance ranks (he outranks YOU by the time ME3 rolls around, though of course that means little to the Spectres) and becoming the leader he was meant to be, and finally to contrition, remorse and redemption, coming back to your side to get the job done.

Maybe I haven't given him the chance (seeing as that would require replaying all three games), but I don't really see where the arc is in "loyal puppy" -> "loyal puppy with hurt feelings who (like every recurring squadmate) really needs to learn to follow his own conscience" -> "loyal puppy." I got so little sense of his personality in ME1 that I just can't really picture it, although I guess I could go watch some videos.


Stilted, absolutely - The man's clearly gay and going through the motions.

At last, something we can agree on.

But seriously, it's mostly the incessant Nice Guy vibe if you don't immediately shoot him down or throw yourself at Liara that bugs me.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I can definitely agree that both humans are pretty lacking. In ME1 it's kind of understandable - they wanted the aliens to have the spotlight since that was the fastest way to build their new frontier setting. And with the VS all-but shelved in ME2, there wasn't any time to add anything to them before ME3 rolled around and it was too late to develop anyone.

But, if we can agree that both humans are lacking - then that just goes back to my original stance that finding one more interesting than the other doesn't make sense. Attributing it to boobage was very crass on my part, but that was sort of the point - to jar loose whatever might be underneath that I might have missed.


No idea. Not that it particularly matters, given that no-one is making those arguments. :smallsmile:

Kaiden is boring for very specific reasons;
His voice actor and general personality. That is, he is mild, understated, lacking in strong emotions or opinions or reactions. As a performance, he simply is a small, quiet one. He isn't even particularly visually distinctive.
He is also boring because all of his conflicts, all of his "baggage" and his issues and his indecision happens in his back-story and is entirely resolved before you ever meet him. The closest he comes to character growth is hearing about it retrospectively. He is otherwise constant and unchanging throughout, with nothing for him to go on and do or solve or learn. No significant hopes or dreams or fears.
He just gets migraines sometimes, apparently.

Ashley, when you meet her, has some stuff in her backstory as well. She comes pre-packaged with tales about why her career had stalled, the whole issue regarding her father and her sister and some ingrained distrust and low level dislike of non-humans. However, these are to some degree ongoing issues whose status changes as you go through the game. Shepherd can confront her regarding her apparently anti-alien attitude, which provokes a clarification but also at least a little growth. You talk through some of her issues, you are instrumental in her career re-starting essentially and you can clearly see the two possible paths she can take, even before making the virmire choice.
Either you allow her belief that she has no worth, no potential to go on to do good things to be validated by letting her throw her life away, or you say that she has value and you save her and if you do she goes on to do better, she discards the lack of self worth and goes on to take on the kind of jobs shepherd once did between ME1 and ME2's actual start, and by ME3 the girl who was prepared to die because she honestly believed she would never amount to anything has become the second ever human spectre.

And to come full circle, her voice acting is, if not top notch, at least less whispery. She has stronger opinions and a clearer tone of voice.

She's still dull and uninteresting compared to the ME1 alien crewmembers, both as a character and as a voice-acting performance. But I do not find it surprising that by the point of Mass Effect 3 the statistics show that people prefer her by something like 1.5 to 5. (Though if I remember the stats, it's worth pointing out that between them they still finish behind any other ME3 team-mate. Even including Vega.)

There's a lot here that I find quite perplexing. I can't really come up with any other word to describe it besides fanfiction.

First off, her anti-alien attitude - as I discussed above, this is pushed to the background no matter what you do. Talk to her about it or don't, challenge her on it or concur with it, it doesn't matter because it's not an arc. She never actually comes out and says she was wrong about it or even that she learned anything. She just drops the rhetoric completely and yammers about her sisters exclusively instead.

As for her supposed lack of self-worth, this is fanfiction too. This is one area where I do give props to Ashley, she's got plenty of backbone - if you try to tell her she doesn't belong on the ship, she throws it back in your face that it's Anderson's call, not yours, and that's indeed as far as you can push it. That's little different from Kaidan's stubbornness though, so that's not a differentiating factor between them either.

Finally, nowhere was she ever "prepared to die," I can't imagine where you possibly could have gotten that from. The closest you could come to that is the bomb - and guess what, you can put Kaidan down there too and get the exact same reaction, so that's nothing special to her character at all.

As for Ashley's popularity as far as surviving Virmire, THAT I can and will attribute to the boobs. MShep is played over FShep 80-20 after all.

[SiuiS]

I guess that's why the Reapers put in a physical button to open their galactic backdoor. Too bad their button-pressers were themselves hackable.

It's entirely possible the protheans real-hacked them, by actually going to their physical console and changing things and letting them download those changes trough hardware coupling, though. So credit where it's due.


Reminds me of the stated fact in game that Shepard can threaten to break the bones of a member of a species strong enough to punch through spaceship bulkheads... and the receiver of said threat takes her seriously.

Of course it takes Shepard seriously. A), Shepard has access to baseball bats, and B) they have an intense phobia of not being able to stand. There's nothing special about Shepard that makes that threat work.


No idea. Not that it particularly matters, given that no-one is making those arguments. :smallsmile:

Kaiden is boring for very specific reasons;
His voice actor and general personality. That is, he is mild, understated, lacking in strong emotions or opinions or reactions. As a performance, he simply is a small, quiet one. He isn't even particularly visually distinctive.
He is also boring because all of his conflicts, all of his "baggage" and his issues and his indecision happens in his back-story and is entirely resolved before you ever meet him. The closest he comes to character growth is hearing about it retrospectively. He is otherwise constant and unchanging throughout, with nothing for him to go on and do or solve or learn. No significant hopes or dreams or fears.
He just gets migraines sometimes, apparently.

Ashley, when you meet her, has some stuff in her backstory as well. She comes pre-packaged with tales about why her career had stalled, the whole issue regarding her father and her sister and some ingrained distrust and low level dislike of non-humans. However, these are to some degree ongoing issues whose status changes as you go through the game. Shepherd can confront her regarding her apparently anti-alien attitude, which provokes a clarification but also at least a little growth. You talk through some of her issues, you are instrumental in her career re-starting essentially and you can clearly see the two possible paths she can take, even before making the virmire choice.
Either you allow her belief that she has no worth, no potential to go on to do good things to be validated by letting her throw her life away, or you say that she has value and you save her and if you do she goes on to do better, she discards the lack of self worth and goes on to take on the kind of jobs shepherd once did between ME1 and ME2's actual start, and by ME3 the girl who was prepared to die because she honestly believed she would never amount to anything has become the second ever human spectre.

And to come full circle, her voice acting is, if not top notch, at least less whispery. She has stronger opinions and a clearer tone of voice.

She's still dull and uninteresting compared to the ME1 alien crewmembers, both as a character and as a voice-acting performance. But I do not find it surprising that by the point of Mass Effect 3 the statistics show that people prefer her by something like 1.5 to 5. (Though if I remember the stats, it's worth pointing out that between them they still finish behind any other ME3 team-mate. Even including Vega.)

But as someone said earlier, there's not going to be any movement on this, so I'll probably leave it at that for a thread or so. :smallsmile:

Yep.



There's a lot here that I find quite perplexing. I can't really come up with any other word to describe it besides fanfiction.

Fan fiction is not a pejorative, nor a condemnation. Additionally, something that can be routinely verified is not fiction no matter how much cynical scoffing or disbelief or patronizing you throw at it.

[Mordokai]

Reminds me of the stated fact in game that Shepard can threaten to break the bones of a member of a species strong enough to punch through spaceship bulkheads... and the receiver of said threat takes her seriously.

Wait, what/who are we talking about here?

[Psyren]

Fan fiction is not a pejorative, nor a condemnation. Additionally, something that can be routinely verified is not fiction no matter how much cynical scoffing or disbelief or patronizing you throw at it.

Not pejorative, but definitely not part of the original work either. Where did Ashley want to die? Where do you have any impact on her attitude at all?

[SiuiS]

Where did Ashley want to die?

Virmire.


Where do you have any impact on her attitude at all?

Mass effect 1.

[Marnath]

Wait, what/who are we talking about here?

Harrot, I think his name is? The one on Omega, who is mistreating the quarian vendor?

[Dhavaer]

Wait, what/who are we talking about here?

Harrot (Harrod?), the Elcor merchant on Omega in ME2.

[Mordokai]

Harrot, I think his name is? The one on Omega, who is mistreating the quarian vendor?


Harrot (Harrod?), the Elcor merchant on Omega in ME2.

Ah yes, I remember now. Thanks for the info.

[Ailurus]

As for Ashley's popularity as far as surviving Virmire, THAT I can and will attribute to the boobs. MShep is played over FShep 80-20 after all.

Exclusively a Femshep player, and yet my "canon" Sentinel goes as follows through Virmire:

-Starts the romance with Kaiden.
-Sends Kaiden w. the Salarians due to his officer training.
-Saves Ashley, essentially because it comes down like a Saving Private Ryan moment. (spoiler for length)
Kaiden has no discernible ties outside the Normandy crew. He tells you he has (virtually) no contact with the other BAaT trainees anymore. All you know about his parents is they're Canadian - there's no evidence he even talks to them anymore, much less has a close relationship. Can't recall anyone else he even mentions who isn't part of the mission. Oh, he's got off-ship friends (mentioned in his ME2 letter) but from what is seen in ME1, his death will only have a major impact on the Normandy crew, and on Shepard. Well, Ashley dying will affect the Normandy crew (roughly) as much. And Shepard, well, she's dealt with similar pain before, first watching her home burn because of slavers, and then watching her whole squad get eaten by Thresher Maws.
Ashley, on the other hand, has ties outside of the Normandy crew. She's got her family, who she's always talking about and to. And she's demonstrated a willingness and ability to help the families of the other Eden Prime marines, such as Bhatia. While killing her may save Shepard a little pain, it will cause a lot of others extra pain.

So, how does number, type and arrangement of chromosomes have any impact on that decision? It doesn't.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, I can definitely agree that both humans are pretty lacking. In ME1 it's kind of understandable - they wanted the aliens to have the spotlight since that was the fastest way to build their new frontier setting. And with the VS all-but shelved in ME2, there wasn't any time to add anything to them before ME3 rolled around and it was too late to develop anyone.

But, if we can agree that both humans are lacking - then that just goes back to my original stance that finding one more interesting than the other doesn't make sense. Attributing it to boobage was very crass on my part, but that was sort of the point - to jar loose whatever might be underneath that I might have missed.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think for me it's honestly just a preference for a headstrong, immature person whose need for growth is highly visible and sounds like a good story vs. a person I can't even come up with completely honest adjectives for besides "quiet".

[Marnath]

I can't speak for everyone, but I think for me it's honestly just a preference for a headstrong, immature person whose need for growth is highly visible and sounds like a good story vs. a person I can't even come up with completely honest adjectives for besides "quiet".

I like Kaiden, Jacob and Vega for the inverse of that. They're a nice change of pace compared to the sitcom drama the rest of your team drops in your lap.

[McDouggal]

I like Kaiden, Jacob and Vega for the inverse of that. They're a nice change of pace compared to the sitcom drama the rest of your team drops in your lap.

I actually liked Jacob, for a lot of the same reason that I like Garrus: They're dependable soldiers. They do what they have to do, and do it well.

I don't particularly enjoy Kaiden's character in ME1; he seems to be too passive (seriously, the only time I brought him on missions with the main team was when I had to take him or when we got the call from Hackett about the Biotic Terrorists.

Vega... Keep him the heck away from me. The man seems unstable.

[Seatbelt]

Vega fell out of a Gears of War game. But I liked his character. idk. I think the people who dislike Vega just dislike the "bro" archetype?

[Psyren]

Virmire.

You mean at the bomb? Where Kaidan reacts the exact same way if you assign him there instead of her?


Mass effect 1.

Can you show me where in Mass Effect 1 if you agree with her racist attitude or don't talk to her at all that it makes any kind of difference to how she acts later? Any difference at all?



So, how does number, type and arrangement of chromosomes have any impact on that decision? It doesn't.

So you honestly believe the 82% of players that played MaleShep had nothing to do with Ashley's survival rate?

[Ailurus]

So you honestly believe the 82% of players that played MaleShep had nothing to do with Ashley's survival rate?

Where did I say that? I said in my case boobs had nothing to do with it, which contradicts your statement that everyone picking Ashley does so because of fanfiction and overactive hormones. After all, you said there's little reason to save Ashley beyond her breasts.

[Psyren]

which contradicts your statement that everyone picking Ashley does so because of fanfiction and overactive hormones.

Where did I say "everyone?"

[Ailurus]

Where did I say "everyone?"

When you declared anyone preferring Ashley was only the result of "rampant bias", because "there's little else to fall back on" besides her body.

Either there are reasons besides sex appeal for people to like Ashley, or people are just saving her because of her body. You've repeatedly declared that option 1 does not exist, so that means everyone who saves Ashley must do so because of BOOBIES!

[Psyren]

When you declared anyone preferring Ashley was only the result of "rampant bias", because "there's little else to fall back on" besides her body.

What I said was that there is no merit to the claim that saving Ashley is due to the bomb because you can put Kaidan with the bomb too. So the fact that she is saved more than he is is likely due to the romance, because 80% of folks play MShep (and likely a similar percentage of players are straight males). That's not a comment on your particular Shepard.

To reverse your scenario for example:

- Send Ashley with the Salarians due to her combat training
- Send Kaidan with the bomb due to his tech skills.

As for the stuff in your spoiler, Kaidan's family would be just as hurt if he died as Ash's would if she died, so that is a terrible justification for anything. His family matters less because you don't get to walk in on the tail-end of a phone call with them? Give me a break.

[Tiki Snakes]

What I said was that there is no merit to the claim that saving Ashley is due to the bomb because you can put Kaidan with the bomb too. So the fact that she is saved more than he is is likely due to the romance, because 80% of folks play MShep (and likely a similar percentage of players are straight males). That's not a comment on your particular Shepard.

To reverse your scenario for example:

- Send Ashley with the Salarians due to her combat training
- Send Kaidan with the bomb due to his tech skills.

As for the stuff in your spoiler, Kaidan's family would be just as hurt if he died as Ash's would if she died, so that is a terrible justification for anything. His family matters less because you don't get to walk in on the tail-end of a phone call with them? Give me a break.

I play Femshep most of the time. I always send Kaiden with the bomb (because he's the tech guy, after all) and Ashley with the Salarians(Because she's a soldier. It feels like a no-brainer?)

And I almost always save Ashley. I have never, ever pursued a relationship with her, nor can I ever see me doing so in any theoretical future playthrough, even on a rare male-shep playthrough.

Make of that what you will, anecdotal as it is.

[Tebryn]

Vega fell out of a Gears of War game. But I liked his character. idk. I think the people who dislike Vega just dislike the "bro" archetype?

I disliked Vega for a lot of the reasons I disliked Steve or Traynor. Introducing characters in the final chapter of the game and wanting me to be connected to them is just plain silly. Garrus, Ashley/Kaiden, Liara and Tali have worked with me for three years, Garrus and Tali literally through thick and thin. Vega comes in, angry at you for...saving the galaxy because he somehow thinks it invalidates the deaths of his team and after...a really poorly scripted scene he's all cool with you and ready to fight and die for you...eh. At least Steve and Traynor are -minor- roles, Vega is supposed to be one of your main squad mates. I understand why Thane wasn't with us, I understand why Mordin wasn't with us. I get why Wrex and Grunt weren't with us (though I think Grunt would have worked fine) or even Jacob. But to throw a character in from...I think Vega was from one of the books or comics, just to...fill out the roster when other people could have been used? That's why I disliked the new characters in ME3. They felt tacked on and took up time I could have had with characters I was emotionally invested. Because I sure as hell wasn't going to get invested in them when we had around 20 hours (less really) to get to know them. Oh and his random Spanish was super immersion breaking and really lame.

[Psyren]

I agree that Vega's random Spanish tripping up the Translator Microbes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranslatorMicrobes) was a bit immersion-breaking. Other than that, I didn't mind him - he served his purpose to the narrative, which was to be the newbie to whom the backstory of the setting and the story thus far could be explained, like Shepard and Garrus filling him in on the Krogan history during their sprint on Menae.

I hated that he was such a tease to FemShep though, she could have had a decent romance with Vega at least (it would have been especially fun if a FemShep jilted by Jacob could end up with Vega and then get some unique dialogue at the Citadel party because of it.) Instead, we got what was by far the lamest romance scene in any Bioware game, and he wasn't even shirtless when he woke up. Ugh!

[Landis963]

Eh, I just assumed that the translators communicate wirelessly to say "OK, did he mean "Grandmother" or "Abuela"?" and then make a judgment call on that. In that case, he meant to say "Abuela," and the translators complied. (It'd be like translating "Gramsy" to "Grandmother," or "Gran-Gran" to "Grandfather", IMO). Same with "Huevos Rancheros", which has a different connotation to "Ranch-style eggs." Shepard's Nickname, (which personally I always nip in the bud) would be designated a "name" for this purpose. I can't think of any others that couldn't be explained away under this. (Save perhaps "siha", which might actually have been a glitch, and is specific to the Thane romance subplot anyway.)

[Psyren]

There's no excuse for "Cien por ciento," which is just a number and has no cultural connotation at all. And "por dios" is pretty easily translated as "by god" so I can't see any decent translator stumbling on that one, even Google got it right.

[RagingKrikkit]

I agree that Vega's random Spanish tripping up the Translator Microbes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranslatorMicrobes) was a bit immersion-breaking. Other than that, I didn't mind him - he served his purpose to the narrative, which was to be the newbie to whom the backstory of the setting and the story thus far could be explained, like Shepard and Garrus filling him in on the Krogan history during their sprint on Menae.

Personal theory: Vega spends most of his dialogue actually speaking in english, so the microbes remain dormant, and when he switches to spanish, they wake up and prepare to translate, but by the time they are ready, he has switched back to english.

Or another theory I think I heard somewhere in the Mass Effect d20 (http://masseffectd20.freeforums.org/) system rules is that the microbes only translate the dominant language of a species, which could explain "siha".

[Avilan the Grey]

What I said was that there is no merit to the claim that saving Ashley is due to the bomb because you can put Kaidan with the bomb too.

Come to think of it, I don't think I ever put Ash with the bomb? I have played through ME1 5 times now (two times saving Kaidan, three times Ash) and I have never even considered putting Ash with the bomb. Not sure why.

[Dienekes]

I agree that Vega's random Spanish tripping up the Translator Microbes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranslatorMicrobes) was a bit immersion-breaking. Other than that, I didn't mind him - he served his purpose to the narrative, which was to be the newbie to whom the backstory of the setting and the story thus far could be explained, like Shepard and Garrus filling him in on the Krogan history during their sprint on Menae.


You see, the problem I have with this is that there already was a character who would have been perfect for filling in the new players on the intricacies of the galaxy, while also giving new information to the old players and could have more clearly established the robots vs organics aspect of the story. His name was Javik. The galaxy was brand new to him, he (was probably) interesting and had a definitely unique perspective. Unfortunately he was DLC only.

[KillianHawkeye]

You see, the problem I have with this is that there already was a character who would have been perfect for filling in the new players on the intricacies of the galaxy, while also giving new information to the old players and could have more clearly established the robots vs organics aspect of the story. His name was Javik. The galaxy was brand new to him, he (was probably) interesting and had a definitely unique perspective. Unfortunately he was DLC only.

And that is why Javik spent more than half the game in my active squad and Vega sat in the shuttle bay and did jack squat. Also why I felt that that particular DLC had the greatest long-term impact on the game, whereas the others were just a series of new missions and some bonus equipment upgrades.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm pretty sure Vega's Spanish was him intentionally ****ing with the translators by mixing up English and Spanish. The only things that ever go untranslated aside from his speech are proper nouns or cultural concepts that take a paragraph of explanation in English (Ardat-Yakshi, siha, keela se'lai, etc.) The only reason for random Spanglish to trigger it is if it can't keep up with someone switching actual spoken language.

EDIT: So, what YakYak said and I skimmed over. Sorry YakYak.

I also didn't mind Vega but I never particularly liked him either. He seemed like an okay guy, although I did kind of want Ash to smack him for being a stereotype (either of a marine or a hispanic-American, take your pick).

[Marnath]

I'm pretty sure Vega's Spanish was him intentionally ****ing with the translators by mixing up English and Spanish. The only things that ever go untranslated aside from his speech are proper nouns or cultural concepts that take a paragraph of explanation in English (Ardat-Yakshi, siha, keela se'lai, etc.) The only reason for random Spanglish to trigger it is if it can't keep up with someone switching actual spoken language.

EDIT: So, what YakYak said and I skimmed over. Sorry YakYak.

I also didn't mind Vega but I never particularly liked him either. He seemed like an okay guy, although I did kind of want Ash to smack him for being a stereotype (either of a marine or a hispanic-American, take your pick).

Vega isn't necessarily an American though, is he? He never mentions where he's from and the Alliance draws it's membership from a lot of different countries.

[KillianHawkeye]

Vega isn't necessarily an American though, is he? He never mentions where he's from and the Alliance draws it's membership from a lot of different countries.

Well, national borders don't really mean as much in the Mass Effect future as they do in the real world. For example, I would never have pegged Andersen as being from London.

[D_Man_7733]

Well, national borders don't really mean as much in the Mass Effect future as they do in the real world. For example, I would never have pegged Andersen as being from London.

Now I want an Australian squadmate for the next Mass Effect (or hell, I'd shell out the same amount I did for Zaeed to have an Australian squadmate in ME3).

[RagingKrikkit]

"Dad, I'm not a crazed gunman, I'm a mercenary!"

[Landis963]

I also didn't mind Vega but I never particularly liked him either. He seemed like an okay guy, although I did kind of want Ash to smack him for being a stereotype (either of a marine or a hispanic-American, take your pick).

And of course, her and James hit it off right away. :smallsigh:

James was an OK guy to like, but once I wiped the cargo bay floor with him he was just a sounding board for Steve (whom I found much more interesting because he had a story arc that I cared about more than I did James being wishy-washy about doing the N7 program).

EDIT: It should be said that I've always saved Kaidan, for various reasons including my predilection for biotics and my Shepard's thing for him (which he would never ever admit ever if he hadn't died and been brought back), so the character development James gets from mixing with Ash is thrown out the window.

[Tebryn]

Vega isn't necessarily an American though, is he? He never mentions where he's from and the Alliance draws it's membership from a lot of different countries.

The only mention is that the Earth is still divided by Nation States, one of which is the United North American States which is Mexico, Canada, and the United States. So "America" means what exactly, it doesn't exist so no one is from America if you mean "The United States". Is he from The United North American States? Yes, he's from present day California.

The problem is there's no reason to assume Spanish or any other language (Even English) we'd recognize would have survived in one hundred and seventy years. I'd even be complaining about the use of English as the standard human language if the reasoning of not making up a whole other language and subtitling the whole game wasn't totally and utterly valid.

[Marnath]

And of course, her and James hit it off right away. :smallsigh:

What, only men can be attracted to eye-candy with nothing going on upstairs? Maybe Ash is just shallow. :smallwink:

[Mudpitmissfit]

Well for my take on the vimire controversy , when I did my original play through it was a case of - "what ! you shot wrex ?!? who the hell told you to shoot woman ?!?" insert lasting antipathy towards character here ,that and saving a rare trait (biotics) over gun toting grunt was a no brainer for me really.

Then I played Me 3 , and well Kaiden started to irritate me , he was just so , well Keanu Reaves really , blank affect and zero depth.

Plus ash has inferno 'nades, wide scale fire 'splosions are much more fun than wooden dialog anyday.

[Sajiri]

Finally got through ME1 again, I wanted to cry a little leaving Kaidan behind :/ despite all the argument over Kaiden vs Ashley, I am happy to finally have a save with each of them to import over, since now I never want to play 1 again.

[RagingKrikkit]

Well for my take on the vimire controversy , when I did my original play through it was a case of - "what ! you shot wrex ?!? who the hell told you to shoot woman ?!?" insert lasting antipathy towards character here ,that and saving a rare trait (biotics) over gun toting grunt was a no brainer for me really.

Looks like somebody underestimated the value of charm/intimidate.

[Seatbelt]

since now I never want to play 1 again.

I tried to play 1 again. It was ok until I got to the first Mako mandatory driving sequence. Then I stopped. And now I never want to play 1 again.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Replaying 1 was okay until I remembered that I had to play through the entire Citadel sequence again before I got my starship (and the Mako, which is the best vehicle in any game ever and you can fight me), and screw that. Same reason I've never replayed Dragon Age, actually.

And regarding James, he's from somewhere in North America and he appears to be Hispanic. Happy? Also he's halfway between a cliché Mexican-American from Los Angeles and a cliché white boy from Los Angeles trying to imitate said Mexican-Americans.

[Mudpitmissfit]

Looks like somebody underestimated the value of charm/intimidate.

Yep - blind play through for the first run and all :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

What, only men can be attracted to eye-candy with nothing going on upstairs? Maybe Ash is just shallow. :smallwink:

I giggled :smallbiggrin:


(and the Mako, which is the best vehicle in any game ever and you can fight me)

Why would anyone fight you over your supermarket trolley with a bum wheel filled with moon rocks? :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

What, only men can be attracted to eye-candy with nothing going on upstairs? Maybe Ash is just shallow. :smallwink:

Vega never seemed anything close to dumb to me.

[Psyren]

Vega never seemed anything close to dumb to me.

1337 h4xx0r skills (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dtj7aWX2qo)

[McDouggal]

Vega fell out of a Gears of War game. But I liked his character. idk. I think the people who dislike Vega just dislike the "bro" archetype?

I don't dislike it; I just don't want someone with a deathwish watching my back.

[McDouggal]

Yep - blind play through for the first run and all :smallbiggrin:

Rule 1 of gaming: If the PC has a skill that only he has, YOU MAX THAT and rely on personal skill to survive fights until you can get combat skills raised. Saves your ass quite a bit.

[Tiki Snakes]

Rule 1 of gaming: If the PC has a skill that only he has, YOU MAX THAT and rely on personal skill to survive fights until you can get combat skills raised. Saves your ass quite a bit.

Eh, I wouldn't call it a hard and fast rule. But in Bioware RPG's? If there's a thing relating to conversation options, you sure better take it soon as you can or you'll regret it.