Monk replaced by Monk2/Fighter2/Swordsage16

[Zagdakka]

Hello,

this is my first posting on this forum, I just registered, but I've been reading it for some days now.

I am taking part in a D&D3.5 campaign and started played a monk for the first time. But, I am not really having the feeling of playing an unarmed master of martial arts - what I wanted in the first place. Its most of the time trying to get a full-round-action for flurry of blows and not getting hit before or after dealing damage (or both).
Now, as the other players found out that their intended play style is not reflected by the classes they chose (we just took classes from the PHBI) we decided to get some more variety into it.

So I am trying to get the martial artist I want. But how?
I read about the swordsage and was amazed by the mechanics of maneuvers and all the possibilities.

So the overall-goal is to create a human unarmed, unarmored martial artist that fights like a "kung-fu-monk". The campaign will continue with 5th level (replacing my 5th level monk) an will be going on til 12th or 15th level or so.

This is my build as i would like it to work.
Are there any flaws or even mistakes in it?
Will this play as intended?

28 points buy system (DMG1)
STR 10
DEX 15 (+1 at 4th level)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8

Getting levels in the following order:

swordsage 1 (the unarmed variant (with IUS), for more skills, weapon focus [unarmed], maneuvers)
Fighter 1 (bonus feat [weapon finesse], good BAB)
Fighter 2 (bonus feat [Learn Stance/Maneuver or something else?], good BAB)
Monk 1 (all the monk specialties, bonus feat [stunning fist])
Monk 2 (bonus feat [combat reflexes])
swordsage 2 (now with enough BAB to get SUS)
and then taking swordsage levels as maneuvers are THE monk fighting style.

Regular feats are Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade (1st), "unknown" (3rd, pls help me out), SUS (6th), maybe Snap Kick on 9th level.

On 5th level (my starting point) and further on the BAB will be the same as a monks, the saves are better (+1 or +2, depending on save and level), the amount of maneuvers and stances are 6/4/1 (maneuvers known/maneuvers readied/stances known) and then progressing as it would on a regular swordsage.
I have almost every important monk ability, except maybe improved evasion*.
*Improved Evasion: As I read it, gaining evasion twice (monk 2, swordsage 9) at 13th character level would not stack normally, but maybe I can convince the DM to make a house rule on that one, as I see it fits and is no game breaker - and a normal monk would get it at 9th level!My unarmed damage die is 2 levels behind a monks'. But with the feats I chose (Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, weapon focus and at 6th level SUS) and the Attributes I focused on (STR-4, WIS+2, CON +2) I both hit and do damage slightly better, as well as I have a better AC and more HP.

As far as I understand multiclassing I suffer no penalties because humans ignore the highest class and the other ones are only ever 1 step from each other.

So whats your opinion?
Are there any flaws or mistakes in this build?
Will it play as intended?

[DarkSonic1337]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a

You can trade your Monk's evasion for spell reflection. It'll be a little painful to not have evasion until level 13 though. Talk to your DM about maybe replacing the swordsage's evasion instead of the monk's.

[Averis Vol]

Trade out your monks evasion for the invisible fist ACF, this will allow you to turn invisible once every three rounds. The best part of this is, the wording says that you turn invisible for the round, but it doesn't reference as the spell, so you stay invisible through any attacks you may make.

Also, trade your heavy and medium armor proficiency for the hit and run fighter variant. This, gives you dex to damage vs flat footed foes and a +2 to initiative.

[Werephilosopher]

First off, welcome to the playground. :smallsmile:

You've got a common problem on your hands. Monks really don't work as well as they should. I found this out the hard way, same as you- my first D&D character was a level 5 Monk, and hoo boy was he bad. However, your revised build is pretty much spot on in terms of creating a viable martial artist. Two levels of fighter for the feats and BAB, two levels of standard monk for all of it's... "goodies" (both good and bad). Chassis is planned around the swordsage. Nice.

I'd recommend giving a few levels of rogue a look. Besides extra skill points (if you do this, take a level of rogue at character level one!), there's sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, basically a whole lot of stuff with lots of ACFs for some variety. It can give your character more of a stealthy, ninja-esque monk.

One more thing...I don't know what your or your DM's stance on homebrew is, but if it's okay, take a look at jiriku's revised monk. My own DM hates homebrew, and I've managed to convince him to allow it if I ever play a monk. THAT is how much better I think it is than the vanilla monk.
Here's that homebrew... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

EDIT: You're taking Shadow Blade... remember that it's for Shadow Hand's preferred weapons only, I'm not sure if fists count.

Do you want your kung-fu guy to be noticeable, like, wear brightly-colored robes, holy symbols etc. or do you want a more stealthy character? If you want stealth you almost need to take a few levels in rogue, just to get sneak attack. Assassin's Stance works well with this!

Whether you dip rogue or not though, put off entering swordsage until character level 5. Since that's your starting level, you'll basically start the same, except you'll have better selection of stances and maneuvers. Remember- you only get new stances and maneuvers when you take a level in Swordsage, but levels in other classes count add half to your total swordsage level for purposes of learning better maneuvers and stances.

Entering SS at level one = effective level 1 => level 1 maneuvers and stances

Entering SS at level five= effective level 3 => level 2 maneuvers and stances

Sorry if this is confusing. ToB is great, but sometimes complex and hard to explain.

[Zagdakka]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a

You can trade your Monk's evasion for spell reflection. It'll be a little painful to not have evasion until level 13 though. Talk to your DM about maybe replacing the swordsage's evasion instead of the monk's.
Nice idea though! I will talk to my DM.


Trade out your monks evasion for the invisible fist ACF, this will allow you to turn invisible once every three rounds. The best part of this is, the wording says that you turn invisible for the round, but it doesn't reference as the spell, so you stay invisible through any attacks you may make.

Also, trade your heavy and medium armor proficiency for the hit and run fighter variant. This, gives you dex to damage vs flat footed foes and a +2 to initiative.

Thanks for your hints on trading in specific abilities. This sounds nice. But where do I find those rules?


First off, welcome to the playground. :smallsmile:
Thanks! :smallsmile:


You've got a common problem on your hands. Monks really don't work as well as they should. I found this out the hard way, same as you- my first D&D character was a level 5 Monk, and hoo boy was he bad. However, your revised build is pretty much spot on in terms of creating a viable martial artist. Two levels of fighter for the feats and BAB, two levels of standard monk for all of it's... "goodies" (both good and bad). Chassis is planned around the swordsage. Nice.

I'd recommend giving a few levels of rogue a look. Besides extra skill points (if you do this, take a level of rogue at character level one!), there's sneak attack, trapfinding, evasion, basically a whole lot of stuff with lots of ACFs for some variety. It can give your character more of a stealthy, ninja-esque monk.
See below.

One more thing...I don't know what your or your DM's stance on homebrew is, but if it's okay, take a look at jiriku's revised monk. My own DM hates homebrew, and I've managed to convince him to allow it if I ever play a monk. THAT is how much better I think it is than the vanilla monk.
Here's that homebrew... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122
I would prefer to stick with "official" rules - no homebrew stuff. Thanks for the link though! I will take a look at it for the sake of inspiration.
Maybe some house rules: Remember Improved Evasion. :smallwink:


EDIT: You're taking Shadow Blade... remember that it's for Shadow Hand's preferred weapons only, I'm not sure if fists count.
It does, I just double-checked.

Do you want your kung-fu guy to be noticeable, like, wear brightly-colored robes, holy symbols etc. or do you want a more stealthy character? If you want stealth you almost need to take a few levels in rogue, just to get sneak attack. Assassin's Stance works well with this!

Whether you dip rogue or not though, put off entering swordsage until character level 5. Since that's your starting level, you'll basically start the same, except you'll have better selection of stances and maneuvers. Remember- you only get new stances and maneuvers when you take a level in Swordsage, but levels in other classes count add half to your total swordsage level for purposes of learning better maneuvers and stances.

Entering SS at level one = effective level 1 => level 1 maneuvers and stances

Entering SS at level five= effective level 3 => level 2 maneuvers and stances

Sorry if this is confusing. ToB is great, but sometimes complex and hard to explain.
My martial artist should not be the rogue/ninja, as we have a real rogue/scout/ranger ranged-dd who will fulfill this role, ... kinda. I want to be a little more straight forward, more like ken from street fighter.

I chose Swordsage on 1st level cause of his skill points (as you suggested for the rogue) and the possibility to take Adaptive Style and Shadow Blade early on which have the prerequisite of a martial adept level or shadow hand stance.
Otherwise I would have to take other feats (I wouldn't know which ones) and would not get those two before level 6 or 9 or something! And I think at least the latter is vital for my build.
And as most 2nd-level-maneuvers need another maneuver of the same discipline as a prerequisite I might as well take those in the beginning, swapping them later on if no longer needed.
In my opinion it is a very tricky decision to make which one would be better in the long run.

[Ortesk]

How much power do you want? Are you looking to be purely unarmed fighter? If so,

Human
Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Battle dancer 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Swordsage 12


So you get Monks belt

Unarmed damage as a 19th level monk (2d10)
2 size increases by Fist of the Forest
Improved Natural Attack

6d8 a punch

Now wizard clasts greater Magic Wallop and it goes up 4 sizes

16D8 damage a hit, +Str+Dex. With 4 attacks a round, and if you get twf+ the MIC gauntlets which give you ITWF, then throw speed on both fists, you can do 8 punches a round

[SciChronic]

can't forget Superior unarmed strike, to boost your unarmed damage up by 4 monk levels.

i recently just made an unarmed skillmonkey that was capable of dealing an average of 146 damage a round... as a skillmonkey. I imagine it is more than possible to make it even stronger if focused into a full on combat specialist.

[Ortesk]

can't forget Superior unarmed strike, to boost your unarmed damage up by 4 monk levels.

i recently just made an unarmed skillmonkey that was capable of dealing an average of 146 damage a round... as a skillmonkey. I imagine it is more than possible to make it even stronger if focused into a full on combat specialist.

Quite right you are. Unarmed fighters are considered fairly weak, but a well build monk who is doing 20d8 a punch, 8 punches a round, toss on 10 more damage a hit, for an average of 800 damage a round is a very tough and able combatant. You just have to build em to be good

[Zagdakka]

How much power do you want? Are you looking to be purely unarmed fighter? If so,

Human
Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Battle dancer 1/Fist of the Forest 3/Swordsage 12


So you get Monks belt

Unarmed damage as a 19th level monk (2d10)
2 size increases by Fist of the Forest
Improved Natural Attack

6d8 a punch

Now wizard clasts greater Magic Wallop and it goes up 4 sizes

16D8 damage a hit, +Str+Dex. With 4 attacks a round, and if you get twf+ the MIC gauntlets which give you ITWF, then throw speed on both fists, you can do 8 punches a round

This is not about power. This is about a kung-fu-style monk. Primarily unarmed, except maybe sometimes a monk-weapon.

The Fist of the Forest is too wild, not civilized enough for me. I don't see that fit in the campaign yet. Maybe in the final stages, whatever will happen then. I'll consider that. Thanks.
I see the monk levels fit better than the battle dancer's due to WIS to AC instead of CHA.


can't forget Superior unarmed strike, to boost your unarmed damage up by 4 monk levels.

i recently just made an unarmed skillmonkey that was capable of dealing an average of 146 damage a round... as a skillmonkey. I imagine it is more than possible to make it even stronger if focused into a full on combat specialist.
SUS is on the list. I will get it as early as possible, speaking next level-up (6th level). :)
Is it possible to take SUS as a fighter's bonus feat? Then, I could take it at 5th level.

[Ortesk]

This is not about power. This is about a kung-fu-style monk. Primarily unarmed, except maybe sometimes a monk-weapon.

The Fist of the Forest is too wild, not civilized enough for me. I don't see that fit in the campaign yet. Maybe in the final stages, whatever will happen then. I'll consider that. Thanks.
I see the monk levels fit better than the battle dancer's due to WIS to AC instead of CHA.


SUS is on the list. I will get it as early as possible, speaking next level-up (6th level). :)

Shadow sun ninja is good, very flavorful and a great team asset if you have tomb tainted soul. And Kung aFu in dnd is merely Rp, your punching someone then same way as the unarmed barbarian is (your fist in his face) you can be kung fu with a commoner or a paladin, its really your choosing


Just my 2cp

EDOT- BD was for full BAB and charisma on ac, since you get wisdom from USS and 2 wisom doesnt stack. Then FoF gets con bonus, you have 4 stats on ac. Shiba protector is amaizng, Wisdom to hit and damage

[SciChronic]

Quite right you are. Unarmed fighters are considered fairly weak, but a well build monk who is doing 20d8 a punch, 8 punches a round, toss on 10 more damage a hit, for an average of 800 damage a round is a very tough and able combatant. You just have to build em to be good

the character i made only attacks twice, dealing an average of 73 damage each attack at a minimum of 46 per hit. Decisive Strike + Snap Kick with 4d6 SA, craven, +int to damage and +dex to damage

[Snowbluff]

Quite right you are. Unarmed fighters are considered fairly weak, but a well build monk who is doing 20d8 a punch, 8 punches a round, toss on 10 more damage a hit, for an average of 800 damage a round is a very tough and able combatant. You just have to build em to be good

This is true for about anything. :smalltongue:

[DarkSonic1337]

The Fist of the Forest is too wild, not civilized enough for me. I don't see that fit in the campaign yet. Maybe in the final stages, whatever will happen then. I'll consider that. Thanks.
I see the monk levels fit better than the battle dancer's due to WIS to AC instead of CHA.

iirc the AC bonus from swordsage does not stack with the AC bonus from monk.


Here's a nice list of alternative class features to look at if you want some more power options or maybe just want some thematic changes.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mppl2kv5saekp4r95331vhk2m3&topic=7908

[Averis Vol]

@zaqdakka. Sorry for forgetting to source. Invisible fist is in exemplars of evil, and hit and run fighter is in drow of the under dark.

[Pickford]

@Zagdakka: If nothing else, remember that you'll want to carry around some of the monk weapons for the bonuses to various combat routines and at higher levels these can be pretty good (i.e. kama's to trip, disarming sai's to ...disarm, etc..) That way when you flurry you can disarm someone, knock them down, and then get some nice bonuses to hit/attacks of opportunity when they want to get up/pick up their weapon.

[Zagdakka]

@Zagdakka: If nothing else, remember that you'll want to carry around some of the monk weapons for the bonuses to various combat routines and at higher levels these can be pretty good (i.e. kama's to trip, disarming sai's to ...disarm, etc..) That way when you flurry you can disarm someone, knock them down, and then get some nice bonuses to hit/attacks of opportunity when they want to get up/pick up their weapon.

What bonuses are you speaking of? (source?)

[Zagdakka]

My favourite build right now:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Zagdakka/D_D_3_5/Monk1-1.jpg[/URL]
I think it's 100% legal up to this point.
And I have some spare slots (= ???)
And some things to 'trade in' for other benefits, but this depends on my DM.

Any suggestions on this? Or anything?

Most of your advice really made me thinking. Very helpful, thank you all.

[Artillery]

Have you looked at Monk2/Psychicwarrior18? Tashalatora lets those levels stack for AC, Bonus, Flurry of Blows, and Unarmed Damage.

It has Monk 20 unarmed dmg, flurry of blows, and +4 AC. You also get all the feats of Psychic Warrior and powers which work well. And if your DM allows some Dragon Mag feats their is Beast Strike which lets you add your claw dmg to your unarmed dmg. Psychic Warrior has Claws of the beast and expansion which would give you extra dmg and reach and out of combat utility.

Augmented Expansion(7pp) and Augmented Claws of the beast(15 pp) for a fierce monk.
Expansion for 2 size categories from medium to huge with all that would do 6d8 fists + 8d6 claw dmg + str, avg 55+str. With a full Flurry of Blows giving a base of +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.

Also you get 7 bonus feats from Psywarrior that you can use on fighter or psionic feats.

[holywhippet]

Another PrC to look at is Sacred Fist which you can enter using Monk and pretty much any divine casting class (cleric, druid etc). You get restricted to using no weapons other than your natural ones, but you get full BAB progression and due to a conflict between text and table you get full spell casting progression. There are plenty of cleric spells that can help you be a better unarmed fighter than a straight monk can be.

[Pickford]

What bonuses are you speaking of? (source?)

All from the PHB chapter 7: equipment
Kama can be used to make trip attacks and deals slashing damage (whereas unarmed is blunt)
Nunchaku gives +2 bonus on disarm checks
Sai gives +4 bonus on disarm checks
Siangham deals piercing damage (whereas unarmed is blunt), it also deals more damage than a dagger