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GoblinGilmartin
2013-10-23, 12:14 PM
So I recently did a short article on my blog about the DM from Unicorn City. He was a huge jerk to his players, but the opening scene in the film goes something like this:
player: I want thumbs so I can hold a sword
DM: No. You can't have thumbs. the game's already in progress, and growing thumbs is weird
player: But I'm part orc, shouldn't that give me a little bit of thumb?
DM: you knew what playing a cat-person entailed when you made it. OWNed!
(but I could be paraphrasing)

Anyway, I made a point of saying that a truly great DM would listen to his player, and while not immediately acquiescing to his request, should have considered throwing him a bone later, perhaps in the form of a glove of thumb-having +1. But I got to thinking, how would some other DMs resolve this issue? Far be it from me to have the ultimate answer here. What would you have done in an obvious conflict like this?

Jay R
2013-10-23, 05:06 PM
In the ideal circumstance, I explain what the rules say, and how I'm interpreting them, and the player finds a solution - polymorph to a form with a thumb, researching a glove of +1 thumb, Wish, whatever. (I consider the primary purpose of a Wish to be granting a rules exception, allowing a character a skill or ability (or body part, I guess) not normally allowed that race or class.

Trying to solve it for them can be frustrating, in that players don't always follow your plans. 2E first level wizards only get one spell per day. In a 2E game I just started, with first levels, I decided to improve that a little, so the first treasure they found included a Pearl of Power, which would allow the wizard to cast an extra spell each day.

But the bard managed to sneak off with all the smaller stuff, and prevented the wizard from finding the pearl.

kyoryu
2013-10-23, 06:02 PM
So I recently did a short article on my blog about the DM from Unicorn City. He was a huge jerk to his players, but the opening scene in the film goes something like this:
player: I want thumbs so I can hold a sword
DM: No. You can't have thumbs. the game's already in progress, and growing thumbs is weird
player: But I'm part orc, shouldn't that give me a little bit of thumb?
DM: you knew what playing a cat-person entailed when you made it. OWNed!
(but I could be paraphrasing)

My view of this depends entirely on whether the player knew getting into it that he wouldn't have thumbs, and what that implied.

If the player didn't realize "cat = no thumbs = no sword", then yeah, the DM's kind of a jerk. Otherwise, not quite as much.


Anyway, I made a point of saying that a truly great DM would listen to his player, and while not immediately acquiescing to his request, should have considered throwing him a bone later, perhaps in the form of a glove of thumb-having +1. But I got to thinking, how would some other DMs resolve this issue? Far be it from me to have the ultimate answer here. What would you have done in an obvious conflict like this?

Player wants thumbs, but can't get them? Sounds like a great way to get the player involved with some long term goals. GMs should gobble that stuff up and run with it. Getting players invested in the game is difficult enough normally, so when a player hands you a lever like that, *take it*.

My response (presuming the player knew what was up before making the character) would be more like "Well, you've heard legends of magic that can grant thumbs to cats. You think it was from an old storyteller near <xyz>. Might be worth seeing if there's any truth to them."

In other words, give them the requirements, or at least a subset of the requirements.

valadil
2013-10-23, 07:18 PM
Compromise and rewards way down the line can work, but only until a certain point. I had a player who wanted to rapid fire a pair of hand crossbows because he thought it looked cool. A pair of shots when the bolts are preloaded is no problem. I could even justify loading without dropping a crossbow. And I offered to add an NPC to the game who could make a mini-repeating crossbow for the right price.

That wasn't good enough. The player wanted all that stuff for free right out of the gate. I can't remember what the resolution to that problem was because the player continued to be problematic throughout the game.

Compromise is great. Giving the players what they want but in your terms is also great. But if a player is so demanding that you can only please him by being a pushover, don't bother pleasing him.

jedipotter
2013-10-23, 07:19 PM
It is kinda an odd base for a question. If I was running the Great Gnome Hunt, with all gnome characters, and told player X this and told him to make a gnome character. Then he shows up with a hal orc, I will just say no.

In a more general sense I don't like to 'work' with the players too much, as it just comes out bad. Like your idea of throwing a bone. Say a player wants 'Item X', you being so (censored) say ''ok, you might find one soon''. Now ''soon'' to the player is like six seconds, but ''soon'' to you is some time in the next couple hours. So you will get hours of whining ''where is my X!? You said soon?!" Better to just never ''promise'' things...

GoblinGilmartin
2013-10-23, 09:06 PM
It is kinda an odd base for a question. If I was running the Great Gnome Hunt, with all gnome characters, and told player X this and told him to make a gnome character. Then he shows up with a hal orc, I will just say no.

In a more general sense I don't like to 'work' with the players too much, as it just comes out bad. Like your idea of throwing a bone. Say a player wants 'Item X', you being so (censored) say ''ok, you might find one soon''. Now ''soon'' to the player is like six seconds, but ''soon'' to you is some time in the next couple hours. So you will get hours of whining ''where is my X!? You said soon?!" Better to just never ''promise'' things...

Well, I never said you had to be upfront with the player.. making it a surprise might be neat.

Jay R
2013-10-23, 09:32 PM
Time to introduce the Thumb of Vecna!

kyoryu
2013-10-23, 10:54 PM
Time to introduce the Thumb of Vecna!

I prefer the Head of Vecna.

Mastikator
2013-10-24, 04:32 AM
Starting off by "owing" your players (or vice versa) is terrible poison to the game.
And if the thumb of this catperson hadn't been an issue to the game previously then it should possible to introduce them during play, anything that isn't mentioned is basically in a storytelling superposition (like a certain cat in a box).

Edit- I wouldn't said "ok you have thumbs, what other orc features do you have? Lets get this resolved once and for all."

PersonMan
2013-10-24, 04:34 AM
I prefer the Head of Vecna.

"Why do you have a head strapped to your paw?"

"It's my thumb."

"Uh...It's a head."

"Hush, this is the only thing I could find."

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-24, 05:15 AM
Woah-woah-woah. He said 'Cat-person? Doesn't that term automatically assume humanoid? which are pretty much defined as standing upright and having opposing thumbs, an intelligence score higher than 3 and within the Medium to small range?

This DM doesn't sound like a good one. Hell, Rakshasa are technically cat people, they have thumbs. I'd say that, followed by "OWNED"! Granted that's DnD universe and I'm assuming this DM was for DnD.

If the player knew what he was getting into, that's his bad, probably should have played a caster. oh wait, he can't hold a holy symbol or a wand, and he can't properly cast somatic spells because he can't get those minute thumb wiggling motions down.

The fact that the DM would even allow the player to play a race that's at such an evolutionary disadvantage, and NOT provided a contingent to balance the game, goes well beyond the scope of "he should work with the player", and more like "He shouldn't DM"

I don't know, that was just my rant for the morning. :smalltongue:


But working with players is fine, provided they don't want something unfair and/or out of "theme" with the campaign. I often work with my players' character background in order to incorporate it into the story. (they don't know how I'm going to do that, but I do, and they seem happy with it.)

Amphetryon
2013-10-24, 05:39 AM
My view of this depends entirely on whether the player knew getting into it that he wouldn't have thumbs, and what that implied.

If the player didn't realize "cat = no thumbs = no sword", then yeah, the DM's kind of a jerk. Otherwise, not quite as much.



Player wants thumbs, but can't get them? Sounds like a great way to get the player involved with some long term goals. GMs should gobble that stuff up and run with it. Getting players invested in the game is difficult enough normally, so when a player hands you a lever like that, *take it*.

My response (presuming the player knew what was up before making the character) would be more like "Well, you've heard legends of magic that can grant thumbs to cats. You think it was from an old storyteller near <xyz>. Might be worth seeing if there's any truth to them."

In other words, give them the requirements, or at least a subset of the requirements.
"See, guys, I told you he was going to use our Character concepts to railroad us into the adventure hook he wants us to take. What a jerkasaurus."

Brookshw
2013-10-24, 06:02 AM
Time to introduce the Thumb of Vecna!

Lol, thanks Jay, that gave me a chuckle. Beware if you get a thumbs up from it :smallsmile:

Killer Angel
2013-10-24, 06:11 AM
Catgirls (and cat orcs, I suppose) can usually use anything they want, regardless the presence (or absence) of thumbs.

Lorsa
2013-10-24, 06:30 AM
I was going to say something but then realized the two posts following the OP pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about this question.

Stop making so good posts Jay R and kyoryu, you're making the rest of us look bad.

DigoDragon
2013-10-24, 07:01 AM
What would you have done in an obvious conflict like this?

I'd probably echo what was said earlier about making a long-term goal of it for an adventure. That way they get to work for the very rewards they want and when they finally get them, they would feel very accomplished.

Themrys
2013-10-24, 07:37 AM
So I recently did a short article on my blog about the DM from Unicorn City. He was a huge jerk to his players, but the opening scene in the film goes something like this:
player: I want thumbs so I can hold a sword
DM: No. You can't have thumbs. the game's already in progress, and growing thumbs is weird
player: But I'm part orc, shouldn't that give me a little bit of thumb?
DM: you knew what playing a cat-person entailed when you made it. OWNed!
(but I could be paraphrasing)

Anyway, I made a point of saying that a truly great DM would listen to his player, and while not immediately acquiescing to his request, should have considered throwing him a bone later, perhaps in the form of a glove of thumb-having +1. But I got to thinking, how would some other DMs resolve this issue? Far be it from me to have the ultimate answer here. What would you have done in an obvious conflict like this?

Either the cat-person is so good at combat with claws, that it would be unfair if it was able to use a sword, or the game is very badly balanced, or the DM just decided that HE doesn't want cat-people to have opposable thumbs, although the game was designed so that they do have thumbs.

It depends on this how justified the DM is in deciding that a catperson can't have thumbs.

I cannot even imagine how a part orc-part catperson would look like. It might have thumbs or not, depending on how the genes mix. Which is why I am strongly of the opinion that the DM is just being an ******* here.


With very young players in adult groups, it may be necessary to sometimes decide that they cannot have the Powerful Sword of Mass Destruction right at the beginning of the game.
For young groups, they'll figure out soon enough why it doesn't really make a difference if everyone has an overpowered weapon.

As an adult player, though, I refuse to be bossed around by a GM. I'll ask whether s/he feels able to handle elves as characters, or evil characters, and stuff, in advance, but in return, I expect a say in how the overall game is played. If something seems unfair to the other players,then the other players can be asked their opinion.

Segev
2013-10-24, 08:28 AM
I had a player who wanted to rapid fire a pair of hand crossbows because he thought it looked cool. A pair of shots when the bolts are preloaded is no problem. I could even justify loading without dropping a crossbow. And I offered to add an NPC to the game who could make a mini-repeating crossbow for the right price.

I actually play a paladin who uses light crossbows, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Quick Draw along with having a full round's worth of attacks of loaded crossbows in his cloak. They're tied to leather straps that let them drop and hang safely; he simply draws a new loaded one as a free action each time he gets an attack. (He's good for only one round, though, at the moment, before he has to charge in and sword-and-board. Well, he CAN go longer, but he uses javelins after the first round. He hopes combat's closed to 30 feet or less by round 2.)

Scow2
2013-10-24, 08:53 AM
Woah-woah-woah. He said 'Cat-person? Doesn't that term automatically assume humanoid? which are pretty much defined as standing upright and having opposing thumbs, an intelligence score higher than 3 and within the Medium to small range?Don't forget standardized humanoid dimorphism! That's usually a given too!

This DM doesn't sound like a good one. Hell, Rakshasa are technically cat people, they have thumbs. I'd say that, followed by "OWNED"! Granted that's DnD universe and I'm assuming this DM was for DnD.

The really stupid part is that cats DO have thumbs.


I actually play a paladin who uses light crossbows, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Quick Draw along with having a full round's worth of attacks of loaded crossbows in his cloak. They're tied to leather straps that let them drop and hang safely; he simply draws a new loaded one as a free action each time he gets an attack. (He's good for only one round, though, at the moment, before he has to charge in and sword-and-board. Well, he CAN go longer, but he uses javelins after the first round. He hopes combat's closed to 30 feet or less by round 2.)What he needs is a gas-powered rapid-fire crossbow, that fires wooden stakes with silver-and-cold-iron tips saturated in holy water.

Segev
2013-10-24, 11:01 AM
What he needs is a gas-powered rapid-fire crossbow, that fires wooden stakes with silver-and-cold-iron tips saturated in holy water.

Nonsense. He needs two of them!

...the funny part is, it's quite possible his younger sister (an NPC the DM put in the game) could make such things.

Alejandro
2013-10-24, 11:14 AM
Clearly you need a villain named Thomas Thumb.

Also, if they're a cat, don't they have awesome claws to slash faces with?

GoblinGilmartin
2013-10-24, 12:51 PM
Woah-woah-woah. He said 'Cat-person? Doesn't that term automatically assume humanoid? which are pretty much defined as standing upright and having opposing thumbs, an intelligence score higher than 3 and within the Medium to small range?

This DM doesn't sound like a good one. Hell, Rakshasa are technically cat people, they have thumbs. I'd say that, followed by "OWNED"! Granted that's DnD universe and I'm assuming this DM was for DnD.

If the player knew what he was getting into, that's his bad, probably should have played a caster. oh wait, he can't hold a holy symbol or a wand, and he can't properly cast somatic spells because he can't get those minute thumb wiggling motions down.

The fact that the DM would even allow the player to play a race that's at such an evolutionary disadvantage, and NOT provided a contingent to balance the game, goes well beyond the scope of "he should work with the player", and more like "He shouldn't DM"

I don't know, that was just my rant for the morning. :smalltongue:


But working with players is fine, provided they don't want something unfair and/or out of "theme" with the campaign. I often work with my players' character background in order to incorporate it into the story. (they don't know how I'm going to do that, but I do, and they seem happy with it.)

Yeah, I think the assumption here is that the cat people have paws.

kyoryu
2013-10-24, 12:53 PM
"See, guys, I told you he was going to use our Character concepts to railroad us into the adventure hook he wants us to take. What a jerkasaurus."

Well, so long as you make the quest make sense...

And seriously, if your characters are so paranoid that any time that something is harder than just "sure, here you go" is seen as railroading, then there's some serious dysfunction in your group.

I might see the "railroading" argument if the area you were suggested to go to just "happens" to be the town that all the other stuff was pointing to in the first case. But apart from that...