Why people keep saying Wormhole is lvl9?

[DavidBV]

It strikes me as odd that everyone keeps saying it's level 9, but it's rather obvious it is an epic power.

Psionic Teleportation Circle is level 9, and has a 10 minutes casting time, and a 5ft radius (so much smaller). It is also horizontal, so less versatile.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm

Am I completely missing something here?

This could mean Laurin is more depleted of PPs than expected...

[Shale]

It appears to be based on a Second Edition power from the splatbook "The Will and the Way," also called Wormhole, which was incredibly pricey, but still available to characters under level 20.

[AKA_Bait]

I, for one, have been assuming that when TT moved to 3.5, Laurin was allowed to keep Wormhole in a manner consistent with the 3.5 rules. It looks to me to be quite a lot like Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). Thus, the conclusion is that "wormhole" was updated to function as gate (at least for the portal effects) and is the same level.

[AstralFire]

It strikes me as odd that everyone keeps saying it's level 9, but it's rather obvious it is an epic power.

Psionic Teleportation Circle is level 9, and has a 10 minutes casting time, and a 5ft radius (so much smaller). It is also horizontal, so less versatile.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm

Am I completely missing something here?

This could mean Laurin is more depleted of PPs than expected...

It's more like a same plane Gate. Also, Teleportation Circle is slightly weak for a 9th level spell, and very weak for a 9th level power. Powers generally need to be a bit stronger than a 1:1 spell swap because they cannot be swapped out the way a prepared caster can, or augmented. There are very few spells I've ever taken as powers without at least houseruling in some augments.

[DavidBV]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

Why is utterly ruled out by most people what, to me, is the most logical conclusion? has it been otherwise proved that she isn't epic?

To me, Rich tries to show very clearly how Tarquin is on completely another league, power-wise, in respect to the OoTS. I always asumed he'd be Epic, because just a couple more levels and good items wouldn't explain how they can't hurt him in melee and he seems to resist absolutely everything. And I find only natural that some of his teammates are on par with his level as well; Malack had a 23+ level after all.

[Porthos]

In fact, it's almost exactly like Gate except for two things.

A) It can be used within a plane, and Gate can't.

B) It can't Call other creatures to help you.

If Wormhole can't connect to other planes, then this is indeed pretty much a 9th level power. You trade away the ability to Call creatures and the ability to connect to another plane (both exceedingly useful) for the ability to teleport within a plane and widen the aperture.

In both instances, it requires Concentration to keep the hole in space open, which keeps the caster from doing other things. Like raining 9th level death upon people.

It's pretty much a cross between Teleportation Circle and Gate. Seems reasonable enough for me.


Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

Why is utterly ruled out by most people what, to me, is the most logical conclusion? has it been otherwise proved that she isn't epic?

It's NOT 'much much better' though.

Question: Is it in comparable power to Gate? Y/n

IMO: Yes.

[Tebryn]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

Why is utterly ruled out by most people what, to me, is the most logical conclusion? has it been otherwise proved that she isn't epic?

It hasn't been proven that she -is- Epic. We can't assume either way, we've got nothing to go on. Unlike spells she's not shouting out her powers either so it's hard to tell what she's using. How is Wormhole more overpowered than Gate though? Because I don't see it.

[AstralFire]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

It really would not be. There are 9th level spells and powers that are already better than other 9th level spells and powers, even in core. And I am someone whose homebrew balancing can often be summarized as, "how to emotionally and physically castrate Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids."

As for the question of epic: Epic is a bloody can of worms and it is easier to stay away from it unless you want to rework it extensively. And from a storytelling POV, I'd think Mr. Burlew would only pull it out very rarely. 5...? Instances of "epic spell" on one page without any sturm und drang would kinda suck.

[Porthos]

Teleeportation Circle also:

A) Lasts a hell of a lot longer.

and

B) Doesn't require Concentration to keep going.

Both important considerations when comparing it to Wormhole.

[DavidBV]

It hasn't been proven that she -is- Epic. We can't assume either way, we've got nothing to go on. Unlike spells she's not shouting out her powers either so it's hard to tell what she's using. How is Wormhole more overpowered than Gate though? Because I don't see it.

Gate is mostly a summoning spell... it allows planar travel but there is plane shift for that. I really don't see why we have to compare Wormhole with Gate, when they serve different purposes AND there is an almost identical lvl 9 psionic power, that does the same, but takes 10 minutes to cast.

Of course it could be a 2ed houserule, or Rich agreeing that Teleportation Circle sucks, but barring that, ruleset in hand, it is clearly better than a same-purpose level 9 one. Unless, of course, it has a range limitation we don't know, but apparently it has a range good enough to travel hundreds of miles.

I probably missed the fact that it requires concentration too... but she's keeping several at once, which is odd then.


It really would not be. There are 9th level spells and powers that are already better than other 9th level spells and powers, even in core. And I am someone whose homebrew balancing can often be summarized as, "how to emotionally and physically castrate Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids."

but spells that are intended for the SAME use?


As for the question of epic: Epic is a bloody can of worms and it is easier to stay away from it unless you want to rework it extensively. And from a storytelling POV, I'd think Mr. Burlew would only pull it out very rarely. 5...? Instances of "epic spell" on one page without any sturm und drang would kinda suck.

That is a good point there, and Rich is usually careful about such stuff.

[Tvtyrant]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

Why is utterly ruled out by most people what, to me, is the most logical conclusion? has it been otherwise proved that she isn't epic?

To me, Rich tries to show very clearly how Tarquin is on completely another league, power-wise, in respect to the OoTS. I always asumed he'd be Epic, because just a couple more levels and good items wouldn't explain how they can't hurt him in melee and he seems to resist absolutely everything. And I find only natural that some of his teammates are on par with his level as well; Malack had a 23+ level after all.

I am not sure I buy the need for EPIC. They already had a Balor who was 200 ft. tall in this series (or maybe a Pit Fiend?) That is a CR 20 monster and they sicked an army on it only to win by chance, while Tarquin was driven out by a normal army of nobodies similar to his own previously shown. A level 20+ character has a fair chance of killing them all by him/herself standing in an empty field and fighting it out, so I doubt he is epic.

Moreover the dinosaurs they are using are CR 9 and 7 respectively; summon monster 8 can summon a triceratops or T-rex and summon monster 9 can summon a small swarm of the things. Watching one CR 7 dinosaur maul Greenhilt tells us all we really need to know about how dangerous an opponent would need to be to fight the party. We also had Miko similarly handle the party earlier on in the strip at a power level well below epic, and while the party has leveled since then they haven't moved up that much.

[Kish]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power.

I don't think Laurin has been spamming an epic-level power like she's never heard of any form of daily limitations. "These people are more powerful than the Order" is one thing. "Laurin is the psionic version of Ganonron, if Ganonron had been more powerful than Haerta" is quite another.

Against, "It's way more powerful than another ninth-level psionic power," I put AstralFire's suggestion that the problem is that Teleportation Circle is overleveled, and say that Wormhole doesn't seem particularly more powerful than other ninth-level powers and spells...such as Gate.

Against, "The Order hasn't been able to do any lasting harm to Tarquin, so his group is really really powerful," I put, "Nale and Zz'dtri were able to destroy one of Tarquin's group in one round."

Laurin is probably epic, since Malack was. Low-epic. Not anywhere near the "eight epic powers in a day and wasn't worried about running out of juice" level.

[Tebryn]

Gate is mostly a summoning spell... it allows planar travel but there is plane shift for that. I really don't see why we have to compare Wormhole with Gate, when they serve different purposes AND there is an almost identical lvl 9 psionic power, that does the same, but takes 10 minutes to cast.

Of course it could be a 2ed houserule, or Rich agreeing that Teleportation Circle sucks, but barring that, ruleset in hand, it is clearly better than a same-purpose level 9 one. Unless, of course, it has a range limitation we don't know, but apparently it has a range good enough to travel hundreds of miles.

And there is Summon Monster I through IX for summoning? Gate is a multi-purpose spell. Wormhole, from what we see, is not. There's nothing showing that it's epic except for it not syncing up with a spell we've never seen. We already know characters have spells from previous editions, it's not that unrealistic that this is a carry over from 2nd Ed. It's also not unrealistic that it's not 9th level either, there are certainly spells that have similar function.

Also on the "doesn't look like gate"...this is what Gate looks like.


The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

What does this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html) look like to you? Also from the SRD


Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

It's a travel spell and it's a summon spell, the use most people use doesn't mean it was intended for that use to be more pervasive than the other.

[Porthos]

Gate is mostly a summoning spell... it allows planar travel but there is plane shift for that. I really don't see why we have to compare Wormhole with Gate, when they serve different purposes AND there is an almost identical lvl 9 psionic power, that does the same, but takes 10 minutes to cast.


Teleportation Circle has a different function though. It's designed to be a "I want to be able to send people to other places whilst I am doing other stuff spell". The 10 minutes down time is more than made up with the 180-200+ minutes of Being Able To Do Stuff.

It's basically the fantasy equivalent of the Transporter Room.

Wormhole, OTOH, is the 9th level version of Dimension Door (or indeed Teleport). It lets people pop around the battlefield or transport across the world.

They serve different functions. One is a glorified prep spell, the other is more of a battle spell that can also be used as a prep spell.... if you're willing to use Concentration.

I would also point out that the main reason lots of people think Gate is broken beyond repair IS the Calling aspect. Remove that, and you remove a lot of the Gate Shenanigans that it is infamous for.

Personally, I think removing the Calling function of Gate is kinda a big deal and shouldn't be glossed over.

[DavidBV]

I see where the consensus comes from, then, about it being level 9. Very likely teleportation circle is overleveled, I have to agree. And certainly after accepting that, I find it a reasonable level 9 power. Thanks everyone for the insight :)


lso on the "doesn't look like gate"...this is what Gate looks like.

I never said it doesn't look like Gate... it indeed does. But I still believe Gate's most impressive component is the ally summoning.

[Emanick]

I don't think Laurin has been spamming an epic-level power like she's never heard of any form of daily limitations. "These people are more powerful than the Order" is one thing. "Laurin is the psionic version of Ganonron, if Ganonron had been more powerful than Haerta" is quite another.

Against, "It's way more powerful than another ninth-level psionic power," I put AstralFire's suggestion that the problem is that Teleportation Circle is overleveled, and say that Wormhole doesn't seem particularly more powerful than other ninth-level powers and spells...such as Gate.

Against, "The Order hasn't been able to do any lasting harm to Tarquin, so his group is really really powerful," I put, "Nale and Zz'dtri were able to destroy one of Tarquin's group in one round."

Laurin is probably epic, since Malack was. Low-epic. Not anywhere near the "eight epic powers in a day and wasn't worried about running out of juice" level.

Small nitpick: Malack wasn't epic or on the same power level as an epic character, unless you consider ECL 21-22 to automatically make a 12th level lizardfolk vampire cleric "epic." Vampires do get a level adjustment of +8, but by the time you're in the mid-to-high levels, vampirism is nowhere near as powerful as eight levels of cleric, and Malack isn't a player character anyway. In terms of actual Challenge Rating, he's CR 15 or so. IMO, a character with the same Challenge Rating as Vaarsuvius is not "epic" by any reasonable yardstick, especially since the context here is one in which we're trying to compare power levels.

[AKA_Bait]

I see where the consensus comes from, then, about it being level 9. Very likely teleportation circle is overleveled, I have to agree. And certainly after accepting that, I find it a reasonable level 9 power. Thanks everyone for the insight :)


Holy gods someone has actually been convinced to accept a new position on the internet. The apocalypse must be nigh.

[Tiiba]

Holy gods someone has actually been convinced to accept a new position on the internet. The apocalypse must be nigh.

Call me when someone is convinced about something that affects his bottom line. Although I'll probably know by looking at my house, crushed by the chunks of sky falling on it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Small nitpick: Malack wasn't epic or on the same power level as an epic character, unless you consider ECL 21-22 to automatically make a 12th level lizardfolk vampire cleric "epic." Vampires do get a level adjustment of +8, but by the time you're in the mid-to-high levels, vampirism is nowhere near as powerful as eight levels of cleric, and Malack isn't a player character anyway. In terms of actual Challenge Rating, he's CR 15 or so. IMO, a character with the same Challenge Rating as Vaarsuvius is not "epic" by any reasonable yardstick, especially since the context here is one in which we're trying to compare power levels.

Counter-nitpick:

In comic 873 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html), Malack refers to having difficulty finding "appropriate challenges." This is almost certainly a veiled reference to gaining XP and the level adjustment gained by being a vampire. And by that metric, his ECL does indeed place him as an Epic character.

Besides, like the Linear Guild (as opposed to Team Evil), Tarquin's group has all the qualities of an Evil adventuring party. Thus, it's appropriate to assume that they are all the same or near the same level. So if Malack was Epic, so should Tarquin and all the rest of them be.

[AstralFire]

Counter-nitpick:

In comic 873 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html), Malack refers to having difficulty finding "appropriate challenges." This is almost certainly a veiled reference to gaining XP and the level adjustment gained by being a vampire. And by that metric, his ECL does indeed place him as an Epic character.

Besides, like the Linear Guild (as opposed to Team Evil), Tarquin's group has all the qualities of an Evil adventuring party. Thus, it's appropriate to assume that they are all the same or near the same level. So if Malack was Epic, so should Tarquin and all the rest of them be.

That would mean that the rest of Team Elan can reasonably expect to be epic shortly, to catch up with Durkon. I suspect it's more likely that Team Tarquin is all around the same effectiveness in battle (CR allows for more eyeballing than ECL, doesn't it?) but not the same ECL.

It's possible Tarquin's epic, but I feel he would have explicitly flaunted that more if that was the case - and also he'd be less likely to consider Roy a potential threat.

[KillianHawkeye]

That would mean that the rest of Team Elan can reasonably expect to be epic shortly, to catch up with Durkon.

Not necessarily. Malack has been a vampire for longer than anybody in the comic has been alive. As such, he was recruited into Tarquin's team AS a vampire cleric. They therefore would have come in at the same ECL if they are following the standard laws of being an adventuring party.

With Durkon, it's different. He gained a large amount of power very suddenly. Over time, the rest of the Order will catch up to him, but it doesn't have to be a short amount of time. In fact, it will be about the same amount of time as it would have taken for them to get to that level anyway.

[Kish]

That would mean that the rest of Team Elan can reasonably expect to be epic shortly, to catch up with Durkon.

Or possibly that Durkon is likely to rejoin the living, losing eight points off his ECL, before the end of the next book.


It's possible Tarquin's epic, but I feel he would have explicitly flaunted that more if that was the case - and also he'd be less likely to consider Roy a potential threat.
Some guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331) said that the difference between the Order and low-epic is "mostly one of degrees anyway" at this point.

I may have mentioned that I think Tarquin and his intellect are highly overrated, but if he was given to writing off anyone who wasn't epic as a threat, I'd revise "his intellect is overrated" to "he's as dumb as his son Elan."

[AstralFire]

Or possibly that Durkon is likely to rejoin the living, losing eight points off his ECL, before the end of the next book.

Some guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331) said that the difference between the Order and low-epic is "mostly one of degrees anyway" at this point.

I may have mentioned that I think Tarquin and his intellect are highly overrated, but if he was given to writing off anyone who wasn't epic as a threat, I'd revise "his intellect is overrated" to "he's as dumb as his son Elan."

Those differences of degrees are still significant enough to make Roy from a little while ago pancake hard against Xykon while every member of the Scribble that Xykon's faced has given him a hell of a lot more trouble (often losing only by outside interference). I don't disagree with Mr. Burlew here, I just don't feel like an epic Tarquin would enjoy the challenge of facing a 15th or 16th level fighter (somewhere thereabouts). He'd still "take care of it", I'd wager, just more of a "crushing annoying gnat" thing. Like with Haley's dad.

Would be surprised if Durkon is raised before the end of the story, if at all. Making Durkon a vampire means both full casters are hobbled from reaching their full story-destructive potential except when convenient to Mr. Burlew.

[Yuki Akuma]

Something people seem to be missing:

If Wormhole were epic, it would use epic spell slots. She's manifested it about eight times, so either she has 80 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics), pegging her at level 77 minimum, or it's not epic.

No, seriously, epic psionic powers use spell slots. They're spontaneously manifested, but then again so are epic spells even if you're a Wizard or Cleric.

Edit: Wait, no, Wizards and Clerics do have to prepare epic spells ahead of time, my mistake.

[Kish]

Would be surprised if Durkon is raised before the end of the story, if at all. Making Durkon a vampire means both full casters are hobbled from reaching their full story-destructive potential except when convenient to Mr. Burlew.
They're that anyway, because he's the author. And...both? :smallconfused: Did I miss a panel where Vampire Durkon declares his intent to randomly drain Vaarsuvius' levels every so often from now on?

[AstralFire]

They're that anyway, because he's the author. And...both? :smallconfused: Did I miss a panel where Vampire Durkon declares his intent to randomly drain Vaarsuvius' levels every so often from now on?

I meant "both" as in, "also." Vaarsuvius has a "get into jail free" card x2 as well as having a terrible specialization, a terrible choice of barred school, and a complete lack of synergy with his goal of being a more supportive caster these days.


Something people seem to be missing:

If Wormhole were epic, it would use epic spell slots. She's manifested it about eight times, so either she has 80 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics), pegging her at level 77 minimum, or it's not epic.

No, seriously, epic psionic powers use spell slots. They're spontaneously manifested, but then again so are epic spells even if you're a Wizard or Cleric.

I plead rusty memory, the last time I seriously looked at the ELH, 3.5 was the hiphoppinest thing on the street.

[Tebryn]

Something people seem to be missing:

If Wormhole were epic, it would use epic spell slots. She's manifested it about eight times, so either she has 80 ranks in Knowledge (Psionics), pegging her at level 77 minimum, or it's not epic.

No, seriously, epic psionic powers use spell slots. They're spontaneously manifested, but then again so are epic spells even if you're a Wizard or Cleric.

No they don't. They -explicitly- do not use spell slots. Epic Spells don't use Spell Slots either.


Just as spellcasters use no spell slots to cast epic spells, psionic characters use no power points to manifest epic powers. Instead, they freely manifest their known epic powers a number of times per day equal to their Knowledge (psionics) skill divided by 10 (round down).

[Yuki Akuma]

No they don't. They -explicitly- do not use spell slots. Epic Spells don't use Spell Slots either.

First: That's just nitpicking. 'You can manifest powers x times per day' is the same as being a spontaneous spellcaster with spell slots.

Second: Epic spells totally use spell slots.


Epic Spellcasting
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.

[Tebryn]

It's not a nitpick when Spell Slot refers to something in the game. "Use X number of days" doesn't make something a spell slot or Spell Like Abilities would be spell slots. It would also seem the SRD contradicts itself then in regards to Epic Spells

[Yuki Akuma]

It's not a nitpick when Spell Slot refers to something in the game. "Use X number of days" doesn't make something a spell slot or Spell Like Abilities would be spell slots. It would also seem the SRD contradicts itself then in regards to Epic Spells

The point is that epic powers can only be used an extremely limited number of times per day, and Laurin would have to be a preposterously high level to have done it as many times as she's been shown to.

Okay? Okay.

[AstralFire]

What? The Epic Level Handbook is inconsistent about something? Goodness gracious, I believe my monocle just failed a fortitude save to remain stationary upon my face.

[Tebryn]

What? The Epic Level Handbook is inconsistent about something? Goodness gracious, I believe my monocle just failed a fortitude save to remain stationary upon my face.

Ya, easily one of the worst 3.5 books on the market.

[Yuki Akuma]

The ELH is 3.0. :smallwink:

[Emanick]

Counter-nitpick:

In comic 873 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html), Malack refers to having difficulty finding "appropriate challenges." This is almost certainly a veiled reference to gaining XP and the level adjustment gained by being a vampire. And by that metric, his ECL does indeed place him as an Epic character.

Besides, like the Linear Guild (as opposed to Team Evil), Tarquin's group has all the qualities of an Evil adventuring party. Thus, it's appropriate to assume that they are all the same or near the same level. So if Malack was Epic, so should Tarquin and all the rest of them be.

I never said that his ECL didn't make him a technically epic character, just that, for all practical purposes (besides gaining XP, of course) that "Epic" status is relatively meaningless for a character with only 12 class levels. We know that Malack's CR was 15, assuming he was a lizardfolk. However effective things like gaseous form and a dominating gaze might be, if we're talking about him being on parity with his party members in terms of power levels, it makes more sense to peg them at closer to 15 than to 21.

[AstralFire]

I never did get why CR for ranking an individual seemed to be much better than ECL and LA, insofar as I paid attention to the Monster Manuals. (I always preferred making my NPCs humanoids with few or no templates.)

[Tebryn]

The ELH is 3.0. :smallwink:

Curse you poetic comeupance! :smalltongue:

[Emanick]

I never did get why CR for ranking an individual seemed to be much better than ECL and LA, insofar as I paid attention to the Monster Manuals. (I always preferred making my NPCs humanoids with few or no templates.)

CR makes much more sense for combat. LA and ECL mainly come into play during extended campaigns, as they typically make things easier for the PCs in less combat-centric ways. So they matter, but not for monsters or NPCs who act almost exclusively as antagonists.

[AstralFire]

CR makes much more sense for combat. LA and ECL mainly come into play during extended campaigns, as they typically make things easier for the PCs in less combat-centric ways. So they matter, but not for monsters or NPCs who act almost exclusively as antagonists.

I suppose that's the theory, but in practice I felt like most ECL and LA adjustments were way overstated.

[KillianHawkeye]

However effective things like gaseous form and a dominating gaze might be, if we're talking about him being on parity with his party members in terms of power levels, it makes more sense to peg them at closer to 15 than to 21.

Not if, as I just stated, they are measuring themselves as an Evil adventuring party rather than as opponents for a Good/Neutral adventuring party. I mean, if you want to go by the rules, monsters and other NPCs don't really have to worry about gaining XP at all, and that's clearly not how the world of OOTS operates.

[Everyl]

CR is basically a way to figure out how dangerous that creature, and only that creature, is for the purposes of building combat encounters against PCs.

Level adjustments and ECL are basically handicaps for PCs with powerful races and/or templates, and have to factor in all the myriad ways that the game can be affected by the abilities granted by the race/template. In the case of vampires, that includes the ability to create up to double one's own hit dice worth of perfectly-enslaved vampire minions from any humanoid or monstrous humanoid that can be at-will Dominated and drained.

For CR purposes, any spawn the vampire has around contribute to the encounter level on their own. For ECL purposes, you basically have to consider a vampire PC to always have the potential to have two other characters with the vampire template and the same number of class levels at his or her beck and call, in addition to anyone they happen to have Dominated today.

Malack wasn't taking full advantage of his template bonuses. But then, nobody in the Stickiverse is optimized. That's not news.

[One Step Two]

Just for reference, there is a spell which is remarkably similar, from the Dragonlance campaign setting book.

Fistandantilus's Portal, is a level 8 spell that allows you to create a gate from 5ft to 20ft in diameter that travels from one point in a plane to another. It takes 3 rounds to cast and costs 500xp, it has other limitations as well.
Given that psionics is a slightly different bird, adding PP to lower cast time is a possibility, and again, this is just the nearest equivalent spell/effect I know of. And I have found the adding of xp costs of such spells tend to be rather arbitray, but common in the Dragonlance books.

Just food for thought. Or wood to the fire...

[orrion]

Just for reference, there is a spell which is remarkably similar, from the Dragonlance campaign setting book.

Fistandantilus's Portal, is a level 8 spell that allows you to create a gate from 5ft to 20ft in diameter that travels from one point in a plane to another. It takes 3 rounds to cast and costs 500xp, it has other limitations as well.
Given that psionics is a slightly different bird, adding PP to lower cast time is a possibility, and again, this is just the nearest equivalent spell/effect I know of. And I have found the adding of xp costs of such spells tend to be rather arbitray, but common in the Dragonlance books.

Just food for thought. Or wood to the fire...

And the 3 round casting time?

[One Step Two]

And the 3 round casting time?

I mentioned it... did I miss something? :smallconfused:

I'm not saying the power that Laurin is using is exactly the same thing, but that there's a similar spell to give a ball park idea of where it sits.

[KillianHawkeye]

The more standard casting time and apparently larger size which the portal can be opened seem to be rather on par with Laurin's version being one level higher.

[137beth]

It really would not be. There are 9th level spells and powers that are already better than other 9th level spells and powers, even in core. And I am someone whose homebrew balancing can often be summarized as, "how to emotionally and physically castrate Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids."




but spells that are intended for the SAME use?
Yes, actually. For example, for blasting, Twin Empowered Fireball with a lesser metamagic rod of maximize (much cheaper since it is only a 3rd level spell) uses a 8th level spell slot and requires a very cheap item and does substantially more damage than a meteor swarm. Heck, there are enough ways to reduce the cost of metamagic that you could feasibly get a twin empowered maximized fireball from a 9th level spell slot without any rods. And then you can add in a lesser quicken rod...

All core, except for Twin Spell (from Complete something, AFB). Both blasting spells, the adjusted fireball uses an 8th level spell slot and is better than meteor swarm, which is 9th level.


Holy gods someone has actually been convinced to accept a new position on the internet. The apocalypse must be nigh.
There was a thread on the 3.5 forum that went on for pages and pages in which the OP was trying to argue that clerics were only tier 2 in a core-only game.
Around page 5ish the OP said that he/she was convinced otherwise and accepted clerics as T1.

But this time is different: it happened on the first page:smalleek:

[Everyl]

What's the duration on Fistandantilus's Portal? If it's significantly longer than "Concentration," then that could be a balance argument for losing the XP cost when bumping it up a level. I really doubt that Laurin would be burning XP at that rate, favor or no favor.

Then again, 500 xp sounds pretty steep for that effect, regardless.

[Lombard]

It appears to be based on a Second Edition power from the splatbook "The Will and the Way," also called Wormhole, which was incredibly pricey, but still available to characters under level 20.

Wormhole

(Psychoportive High Science)

MAC: var
PSP Cost: var
Area of Effect: special

With this power, a psionicist can open a door between two points, no matter how far apart they may happen to be (at least theoretically). It resembles the devotion dimensional door, but on a much larger scale. The psionicist must open one end within 20 yards of himself, although the portal may have any orientation and be any size up to 10 feet by 10 feet square. If the psionicist wishes to, he can try to make the wormhole larger; each doubling in portal size adds an additional -2 penalty to the power check. The other end of the wormhole will he of identical size and can be placed at any point the psionicist has ever seen. It can also he positioned at any place he can reference from here he currently is - for example, "10 miles east of where I am now" - whether or not he has ever actually been there. The distance spanned by the wormhole will affect its PSP cost as shown below.

Distance / PSP cost
100 yards 15/round
1000 yards 25/round
10 miles 35/round
100 miles 45/round
1,000 miles 55/round
10,000 miles 65/round

Once created, the wormhole's entrances remain motionless. Anything can pass through, to he instantly transported to the other side. The psionicist could conceivably transport an entire army or a Mekillot wagon by spending enough PSPs. if an object cannot fit entirely within the wormhole's mouth, it cannot be transported.
If the psionicist tries to use this power to transport an unwilling creature, the victim gains a saving throw versus spells to avoid being affected.
Fumble—The psionicist creates a dimensional vortex that transports him 10 to 100 miles in a random (horizontal) direction if he fails a saving throw versus spells.

/iheartgoogle

[One Step Two]

What's the duration on Fistandantilus's Portal? If it's significantly longer than "Concentration," then that could be a balance argument for losing the XP cost when bumping it up a level. I really doubt that Laurin would be burning XP at that rate, favor or no favor.

Then again, 500 xp sounds pretty steep for that effect, regardless.

Concentration + 1 Round. Like I said, the Dragonlance seem to favour un-necessary exp components. There's also a chance the portal will fail based on how familiar you are with the location you're opening a portal to.
The cost is a little exorberant, exp-wise, due to the setting, more than anything. Dragonlance is one of the few campaigns that makes use of all-out war, and being able to redeploy large numbers of forces on the battle field is powerful.

[Lombard]

Distance / PSP cost
100 yards 15/round
1000 yards 25/round
10 miles 35/round
100 miles 45/round
1,000 miles 55/round
10,000 miles 65/round


Normally I don't go in for this sort of thing but since Laurin is spamming this ability I think it's fair game.

Assuming Windy Canyon area is 10 miles and it takes 20 rounds to move an entire army through the wormhole (which would still be pretty darn quick)... 700 pp

First wormhole after the order, 1000 yards, 1 round... 25 pp

Six more wormholes, 100 yards, 1 round... 15*6= 90 pp

That's 815 pp. Add that mind thrust or whatever is was for a few more.

Bottom line would be- any way you slice it, Laurin has used a ton of pp without a rest, mostly through the transport of the army, and her running out should be considered a very realistic possibility.

[Porthos]

Power points worked completely differently in 2e than they do in 3.x.

For one thing, there is a cap to the number you can use in 3.x in any one action. Thus the above chart (which was from 2e) needs to be completely reworked if someone tried to transfer it over.

More than likely, the distance requirements were just nuked in place of solidly putting it in 9th level.

[Lombard]

Power points worked completely differently in 2e than they do in 3.x.

For one thing, there is a cap to the number you can use in 3.x in any one action. Thus the above chart (which was from 2e) needs to be completely reworked if someone tried to transfer it over.

More than likely, the distance requirements were just nuked in place of solidly putting it in 9th level.

The distance factor's one element, but it pales in comparison to the factor of having to keep the wormhole open for as many rounds as it would take an army to march through it. I used 20 rounds above but that's just 2 minutes. But even if it was say a straight 15/rd cost for two minutes that's still 300pp from moving the army plus over 100pp from subsequent power usages. Even in that scenario Laurin's power use is still significant and still putting her in danger of running out quite soon.

[Porthos]

The distance factor's one element, but it pales in comparison to the factor of having to keep the wormhole open for as many rounds as it would take an army to march through it. I used 20 rounds above but that's just 2 minutes. But even if it was say a straight 15/rd cost for two minutes that's still 300pp from moving the army plus over 100pp from subsequent power usages. Even in that scenario Laurin's power use is still significant and still putting her in danger of running out quite soon.

You misunderstand my point. :smallsmile: The way power points were spent is completely different in 2e and 3e. For instance in 2e there was Initial Cost (in the case of Wormhole, 24 pp) and then sometimes Maintence Cost (per round/turn/hour/whatever) and then Additional Costs, as needed. While I haven't checked all of the powers in 3.x. I'm fairly certain that the entire concept of Manitence cost is gone.

Thus Laurin wasn't spending X amount of PPs per round to keep the Wormhole up. Probably. :smalltongue:

The whole entire system of psionics was reworked from 2e to 3x and one just can't look at a 2e statblock and copy it over into 3x without taking that into account. :smallsmile:

[Lombard]

You misunderstand my point. :smallsmile: The way power points were spent is completely different in 2e and 3e. For instance in 2e there was Initial Cost (in the case of Wormhole, 24 pp) and then sometimes Maintence Cost (per round/turn/hour/whatever) and then Additional Costs, as needed. While I haven't checked all of the powers in 3.x. I'm fairly certain that the entire concept of Manitence cost is gone.

Thus Laurin wasn't spending X amount of PPs per round to keep the Wormhole up. Probably. :smalltongue:

The whole entire system of psionics was reworked from 2e to 3x and one just can't look at a 2e statblock and copy it over into 3x without taking that into account. :smallsmile:

Fair enough, though my aesthetic sensibility recoils somewhat at spammed 9th level abilities ported over from 2e that don't exist in 3.5e with uncertain homebrewed costs. It leaves one's inner d&d statnerd most dissatisfied.

[Porthos]

Fair enough, though my aesthetic sensibility recoils somewhat at spammed 9th level abilities ported over from 2e that don't exist in 3.5e with uncertain homebrewed costs. It leaves one's inner d&d statnerd most dissatisfied.

Since it's been eyeballed as a similiar power level as Gate, just think of it as what would happen if a Psion finally got access to the Gate spell and cast it over and over and over ..... and over and over again. :smalltongue:

NOTE: I've eyeballed that Laurin has probably blown about half her power points. 17 x 10 = 170. Add in a 2nd level (probably) mind reading power (3pp), a 6th level Disintergrate (11pp) and some sort of attack power (who knows? Let's just call it 9pp) and she could have easily spent 200pp so far. Throw in a wormhole for getting Miron and then to Tarquin, that might bring it up to 230 or so. Out of, oh, say 400 or so (emphasis on 'or so' :smalltongue:).

She's not running on empty yet. But she isn't exactly conserving the juice either. :smalltongue:

[Lombard]

It does bear stating that if wormhole works without a maintenance cost, and could therefore be used to teleport armies around for less than 5% of a capable psion's daily pp, high-level psions would have long ago tended to render moot the concepts of 'kingdoms' and such in Stickworld.

[Porthos]

It does bear stating that if wormhole works without a maintenance cost, and could therefore be used to teleport armies around for less than 5% of a capable psion's daily pp, high-level psions would have long ago tended to render moot the concepts of 'kingdoms' and such in Stickworld.

The thread on Armies and D&D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304136) FINALLY fell to the second page of the forum. You sure you want to risk dredging it up again? :smalltongue:

...

I would also point out that two castings of Gate is functionally the same thing as a Wormhole spell. Just a few rounds longer.

Gate army to Random Safe Plane for 20 rounds: 1 9th level spell
Gate army from Random Safe Plane to desired location on homeworld for 20 rounds: 1 9th level spell.

By that logic Sorcerers should rule the world (since they can get 6 9th level spells at lvl 20). :smallwink:

[Everyl]

It does bear stating that if wormhole works without a maintenance cost, and could therefore be used to teleport armies around for less than 5% of a capable psion's daily pp, high-level psions would have long ago tended to render moot the concepts of 'kingdoms' and such in Stickworld.

Well, I guess they already have, then. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm) But then, so have wizards and sorcerers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm).

[rodneyAnonymous]

If the rest of the party had similar level to Malack's ECL, he would have been earning experience, and not complained about having a hard time finding appropriate encounters.

Chances are his class level is way lower but his ECL is higher.

[Lombard]

Yeah it's like all those things, only apparently better. At any rate I imagine the issue of Laurin's remaining power points, or lack thereof, will sort itself out in the next few strips or so.

[Souhiro]

I said it before: ECL is just a guide, and isn't an exact science!

A Lvl-19 pixie fighter with STR-3, a shorsword and (and the left hand unarmed), and all her feats being "Weapon Focus / Another weapon which isn't shortsdword or unarmed" isn't half as dangerous as an basic ogre.

Altough, Malak was "character level ~23 " (and he has been implied to be a vampire from a long, LONG time ago) characters tend to team up with people arooun their levels, so it's more than possible that Tarquin is an epic level fighter. As Laurie and the other guy

Yes, it raises some questions: Why just Baleful Polymorph the Allo, instead of Reverse Gravity or something like? I think that that guy isn't a pure-wizard.

Also, I think that Laurie is using a homebrewed, maybe researched version of her power that allows to "Move" the gates/wormholes/teleport circles.

If the Order defeats the Mighty Morphin Tarquin Rangers, do you think that Elan would keep Laurie's ioun CHA stones? I find those... something stupid

"Hey dude, you have a stupid-looking rock spinning around your head. It makes you to look dumb"
"Yeah, sure it does... but doesn't make me look cool, too?"
"... yes, it does. OH MY, IT DOES! you're stupidly cool!"

[Kish]

If the rest of the party had similar level to Malack's ECL, he would have been earning experience, and not complained about having a hard time finding appropriate encounters.
That hinges on the assumption that the party has been regularly fighting level-appropriate encounters.

I suspect, rather, that the Order is the highest-level challenge they've encountered since they began Tarquin's con.

[orrion]

Yes, it raises some questions: Why just Baleful Polymorph the Allo, instead of Reverse Gravity or something like? I think that that guy isn't a pure-wizard.


Range. Remember, V speculated that if they had anything capable of taking them and/or their mount down from range, they would have already employed it. Baleful Polymorph is a pretty close range spell - even more so if he isn't pure Wizard.

Or slot save. Baleful is 5th, Reverse Gravity is 7th.

Plus, y'know, Tarquin probably wants to get in there and he's melee.

[Sir_Leorik]

That would mean that the rest of Team Elan can reasonably expect to be epic shortly, to catch up with Durkon.


Or possibly that Durkon is likely to rejoin the living, losing eight points off his ECL, before the end of the next book.

But not before bringing "death and destruction" to the Dwarven homelands.


CR makes much more sense for combat. LA and ECL mainly come into play during extended campaigns, as they typically make things easier for the PCs in less combat-centric ways. So they matter, but not for monsters or NPCs who act almost exclusively as antagonists.

CR is intended for two separate purposes: 1) determine if a monster or NPC would be a reasonable challenge for a party of four PCs, and 2) determine how much XP a party of four PCs get from beating that monster or NPC in combat.

As Everyl said, Level Adjustments are meant to penalize players whose PCs are monsters. Want to play a Lizardfolk? Well you add a +1 LA to your PC's character level, which means a plain vanilla 2 Hit Dice Lizardfolk is considered a 3rd level PC. If the group starts play at 1st level, the player of the Lizardfolk needs to take three levels in a monster class before he can take a level in his first PC character class. If the group starts play at 3rd level, the Lizardfolk has only 2 Hit Dice, though he he gets gear equal to the other 3rd level PCs.

The Level Adjustment and Equivalent Character Level rules are not supposed to be applied to NPCs, only PCs. The reason they do in the OotS's verse is because everyone in their world earns XP and gains levels, not just PCs. Malack had a +9 LA (and had apparently had one for centuries).


Wormhole

(Psychoportive High Science)

MAC: var
PSP Cost: var
Area of Effect: special

With this power, a psionicist can open a door between two points, no matter how far apart they may happen to be (at least theoretically). It resembles the devotion dimensional door, but on a much larger scale. The psionicist must open one end within 20 yards of himself, although the portal may have any orientation and be any size up to 10 feet by 10 feet square. If the psionicist wishes to, he can try to make the wormhole larger; each doubling in portal size adds an additional -2 penalty to the power check. The other end of the wormhole will he of identical size and can be placed at any point the psionicist has ever seen. It can also he positioned at any place he can reference from here he currently is - for example, "10 miles east of where I am now" - whether or not he has ever actually been there. The distance spanned by the wormhole will affect its PSP cost as shown below.

Distance / PSP cost
100 yards 15/round
1000 yards 25/round
10 miles 35/round
100 miles 45/round
1,000 miles 55/round
10,000 miles 65/round

Once created, the wormhole's entrances remain motionless. Anything can pass through, to he instantly transported to the other side. The psionicist could conceivably transport an entire army or a Mekillot wagon by spending enough PSPs. if an object cannot fit entirely within the wormhole's mouth, it cannot be transported.
If the psionicist tries to use this power to transport an unwilling creature, the victim gains a saving throw versus spells to avoid being affected.
Fumble—The psionicist creates a dimensional vortex that transports him 10 to 100 miles in a random (horizontal) direction if he fails a saving throw versus spells.
/iheartgoogle

Thanks Lombard! However that power would need to be seriously modified to resemble a 3.5 Psionic power. Otherwise we run into confusion like:


Normally I don't go in for this sort of thing but since Laurin is spamming this ability I think it's fair game.

Assuming Windy Canyon area is 10 miles and it takes 20 rounds to move an entire army through the wormhole (which would still be pretty darn quick)... 700 pp

First wormhole after the order, 1000 yards, 1 round... 25 pp

Six more wormholes, 100 yards, 1 round... 15*6= 90 pp

That's 815 pp. Add that mind thrust or whatever is was for a few more.

Bottom line would be- any way you slice it, Laurin has used a ton of pp without a rest, mostly through the transport of the army, and her running out should be considered a very realistic possibility.

First off, Rounds in 2E refer to a 1 minute, whereas in 3.X they refer to a period of six seconds.

Second, the cost of Psionic powers in 3.X is fixed, barring Augmentation. 9th level Powers cost 17 Power Points a pop.

Third, the power needs to be modified to drop references to Fumbles, MAC, and other outdated game rules. We do not know the manifesting time or duration of the power, or whether Laurin needs to Concentrate on her Wormholes to keep them open.


Fair enough, though my aesthetic sensibility recoils somewhat at spammed 9th level abilities ported over from 2e that don't exist in 3.5e with uncertain homebrewed costs. It leaves one's inner d&d statnerd most dissatisfied.

What do you expect from Team Tarquin? They're just a bunch of Munchkins!

[Everyl]

If the Order defeats the Mighty Morphin Tarquin Rangers, do you think that Elan would keep Laurie's ioun CHA stones? I find those... something stupid

"Hey dude, you have a stupid-looking rock spinning around your head. It makes you to look dumb"
"Yeah, sure it does... but doesn't make me look cool, too?"
"... yes, it does. OH MY, IT DOES! you're stupidly cool!"

I don't have time to double-check now, but I'm pretty sure that ioun stones give enhancement bonuses, which wouldn't stack with Elan's belt of charisma.

[Hecuba]

Wormhole

(Psychoportive High Science)
[Wormhole text]

/iheartgoogle

I had dug that up for a recent discussion in the geek-ery thread, but never circled back.

She does seem to be using an update version of this (or, like Haley's dad she uses old edition rulesthis was wrong), but guessing how it's been updated is problematic without Rich's input, for several reasons.

Psionics in 2nd edition didn't have the standard 9 level progression: they were acquired in a manner mirroring NWPs.
The Wormhole power itself would have been available at a relatively low level, with the applications limited by the scaling PSP cost and check requirements.

As such, the best option for determining Laurin's level from Wormhole would be to establish a floor of the minimum level at which a 2nd edition psionist would have sufficient PSP to match her spending. Even there we have to contend with the PSP cost scaling in two dimension.

Until this strip, we didn't have much to go on here.

But now we do have some minimums.
Since the goal of using wormhole here is to close a distance of more than 100 feet**, the PSP expenditure is at minimum 25 PSP/round for each wormhole.

By my count, we have a minimum of:

7 wormoles
an extra round for 1 wormhole
2 extra rounds for 1 wormhole


That's a minimum of 250 PSP*.

With maximum starting stats (presuming she is human and that the 2nd edition stat cap is updated after the PSP to PP conversion and not before), the max PSP available to a 2nd edition character by level would be:

{table=head]Level|Max PSP
1|32
2|45
3|58
4|71
5|84
6|97
7|110
8|123
9|136
10|149
11|162
12|175
13|188
14|201
15|214
16|227
17|240
18|253
19|266
20|279
[/table]

Thus, to use her updated 2nd edition power like she has, a 2nd edition character would need to be at least 18th level.
This is being absurdly conservative with her army moving (though some of that could be recovered between then and the current encounter, since PSP recovery is either per hour or per round outside combat^).

*Actually more, since one moved an army, but we lack sufficient detail on distance and duration to be exact. And we're aiming for a floor.

^It's somewhat more complex, but it should be less than the amount we're under-budgeting for the army moving wormhole.

** The spell cast requires short, but a running T-Rex or Allosaurus covers more that 100 feet per round separate from any initial gap, so we're safely outside the 15 PSP/round at 100 feet option.

[Kish]

Just carving out one tiny part of that post to respond to.


(or, like Haley's dad she uses old edition rules)
I defy you to cite anywhere in the comic or on the board saying Ian Starshine uses old edition rules, present tense.

"My dad was a First Edition thief," Haley said. Presumably, was until Second Edition came out, and then he got updated, and updated again when 3.0ed came out, and updated a third time when 3.5ed came out, as the Order did in the first strip.

[rodneyAnonymous]

That hinges on the assumption that the party has been regularly fighting level-appropriate encounters.

When they were adventuring? Why would you assume otherwise?

[Sir_Leorik]

I defy you to cite anywhere in the comic or on the board saying Ian Starshine uses old edition rules, present tense.

"My dad was a First Edition thief," Haley said. Presumably, was until Second Edition came out, and then he got updated, and updated again when 3.0ed came out, and updated a third time when 3.5ed came out, as the Order did in the first strip.

You know I keep seeing people cite that strip, not understanding that Haley was saying that stealing from other party members and blatantly lying about it to their faces, was a family tradition. It doesn't mean that Ian is a 1E character, any more than Tarquin is, just because Tarquin was swinging a greataxe back when Unearthed Arcana was released.

[Shale]

When they were adventuring? Why would you assume otherwise?

Because Malack specifically remarks on his not being able to find level-appropriate encounters very often, and the rest of his party seems to be closer to his ECL than to his character level (and thus would be getting similar amounts of EXP from whatever they did run into).

[Kish]

When they were adventuring?

...You mean, before they started the empires scheme? Why are we suddenly talking about then?

Why would you assume otherwise?
This question hinges on the assumption that you have to assume something.

Malack has, by his word, not been involved in any fights against level-appropriate encounters lately. Whatever "lately" means, whatever that implies for the rest of the party, are open to question.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I am not suddenly talking about then, I have been talking about then the whole time. The only assumption I am making is that TT earned most of their experience adventuring, as is pretty much always the case in D&D, and none of them have earned much since.

As far as I know, he did not use the word "lately", that is also guessing. And I think it's more reasonable to guess that none of them have been doing much adventuring (solo or otherwise) since they were a party together.

[Hecuba]

Just carving out one tiny part of that post to respond to.

I defy you to cite anywhere in the comic or on the board saying Ian Starshine uses old edition rules, present tense.

I believe you are correct, and I was mistaken. But we do know at least some things are not updated (ex: monsters from first arc).

My personal opinion is that Laurin is 3.5 and is using an updated version of wormhole.
But we haven't yet encountered something that would falsify the premise that she's using older rules. Thus, though I find it exceedingly unlikely, I'm not comfortable postulating that it is false.


Still, I think that's as close as we can come to nailing down her level via wormhole without knowing exactly how the Science was updated.

[warrl]

Neither visual similarity with "gate" nor an appearance in a 2ed book justifies the fact that it's much, much better than an existing 9th level spell/power. It would be completely unbalanced, IMHO.

Well, yeah. But there are two kinds of unbalanced:

a) This power is too strong for its level
b) This power is too weak for its level

The existing 9th level spell that you're referring to is, in many people's opinion, unbalanced because it's too weak. If they are correct, then ANY proper 9th-level spell will be overpowered in comparison to it.


Why is utterly ruled out by most people what, to me, is the most logical conclusion? has it been otherwise proved that she isn't epic?

To me, Rich tries to show very clearly how Tarquin is on completely another league, power-wise, in respect to the OoTS.

Neither Tarquin nor any member of his team has explicitly been declared epic, or done anything that per RAW can only be done by epic characters. We know for a fact that Malack had fewer *class* levels than Durkon.

Lirian's Wormhole is a houseruled power borrowed from 2E, not existing at all in 3E RAW, so nothing can be concluded about it other than what is explicitly said. Even the estimate of the power-point cost is not official (being as it's based on the assumption of a standardized 9th level power).


I always assumed {Tarquin}'d be Epic, because just a couple more levels and good items wouldn't explain how they can't hurt him in melee and he seems to resist absolutely everything.

The Ring of Regeneration he mentioned explains a lot of that. The rest doesn't require Epic at all.


And I find only natural that some of his teammates are on par with his level as well; Malack had a 23+ level after all.

Malack was identified as class level 12. The Vampire template includes ECL +8 but some think that's overrated - particularly for a caster as most of the vampire advantages are most applicable in melee. As I recall it's undecided if he *ever* got an ECL adjustment for his original race, or if so whether that should stack with the Vampire template.

In other words, to be on par with Malack the rest of the group could easily be anywhere from 18 to 21 or so. Not definitively Epic (but not definitively non-Epic either).

It's generally easier to establish a minimum level than a maximum level for a character. There's room for Tarquin to be Epic, but the minimum is still non-Epic.

And from a storyteller's perspective... an Epic character can reshape the world. And I don't mean a mere political reshaping like Tarquin is trying to do, I mean in effect the character can rip the world description out of the DM's hands and rewrite it. Storytellers don't generally like this, and use such characters very sparingly. So from a meta perspective, it's unlikely that there is going to be an entire organized party of Epic characters that aren't the primary heroes/villains but nonetheless are an ongoing part of the world. Look at the epic characters we've had in the story:

* The Order of the Scribble - the party broke up in conflict, and most (maybe all) of them are dead; I believe none of them have actually appeared alive in-comic (what's online at least) other than in flashbacks
* Xykon - a single character and somewhat ADHD, "managed up" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle) by a non-Epic character
* The splices - all dead, were only present for 20-some minutes of story time

[dtilque]

but she's keeping several [wormholes open] at once, which is odd then.

I don't think she is. I know it looks like it in panel 6 of OotS0926 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), but that's just an effect of compressed storytelling.

Consider the sequence from the last panel of 625 to panel 5 of 626. They are running away and encounter a wormhole with triceratops at the beginning. Then they turn and run a different direction until they encounter another one. How many rounds does that take? It's hard to say for sure, but perhaps two or three depending on how long they run. Panel 6 is just 3 and a half more of those sequences compressed into a single panel.

As far as I can tell, the wormholes close once the t-tops goes through them, so those wormholes are not all open at once.

[RolkFlameraven]

Yeah know I saw the thread title and thought that someone else was like me and thinks that Wormhole is a LOWER level power then 9th not epic... oh well.

The big thing with this power is that it should be augmentable just like it was back in 2nd ed. As the wormholes shown in the last few strips are much smaller then the one used to bring the army that kinda proves it.

As such it could be as low as 6th and ramp up quite quickly or be a 8th or 9th that has an epic option already put in place for the size and deration. If it is a lower level power that can be ramped up, perhaps a homebrew version of DD she could have a hell of a lot more PP then most people seem to think

[Havokca]

I don't think she is. I know it looks like it in panel 6 of OotS0926 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), but that's just an effect of compressed storytelling.

Consider the sequence from the last panel of 625 to panel 5 of 626. They are running away and encounter a wormhole with triceratops at the beginning. Then they turn and run a different direction until they encounter another one. How many rounds does that take? It's hard to say for sure, but perhaps two or three depending on how long they run. Panel 6 is just 3 and a half more of those sequences compressed into a single panel.

As far as I can tell, the wormholes close once the t-tops goes through them, so those wormholes are not all open at once.

The comic does make it look like V is looking at all of the wormholes though. It could be that V's just drawn there to show location with respect to the action… or it could be that V's a thinkin'

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think she is. I know it looks like it in panel 6 of OotS0926 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html), but that's just an effect of compressed storytelling.

I'm frankly boggled that anyone even THINKS that they MIGHT all be open at once based on that frame's evidence rather than understanding that this is an effect of compressed storytelling.

What mysterious and strange power do these people think the allosaur is using to leave that clear broad colored dotted line behind it? Or are they CAPABLE of understanding that one of these things is showing us what happened over time but somehow lose that capability when looking at something closely related, and IN THE SAME FRAME?!

The zig-zag path absolutely REQUIRES that the multiple portals be shown to explain why it happens, use one and you MUST use the other, the multiple shown portals are evidence of persistence of the portals to the exact same extent that the blue line is evidence that the Allosaur is in all the places shown by the blue line at once.

Is it an divine allosaur with some previously unknown ability to zip around instantaneously via some time-stop like effect? It MUST BE, it's shown to be in all those places at once, and showing multiple things on the same panel or the same thing in multiple places can ONLY mean that they are simultaneously present at all those places!