Illusion question, one last detail!

[Wacky89]

ok so we discussed this a bit on the nights session. My gm made a major image of a hydra, I cast a fireball into the area where it was. Would I be allowed a saving throw for disbelief? Or doesn't it count as interacting with the spell?


major image says: The image disappears when
struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

Doesn't that mean it can react to the fireball and show it was damaged by the fireball?

[Brookshw]

AFB so can't confirm by RAW, but if the hydra didn't show any reaction to the fireball (as in taking damage) I'd think you'd be entitled.

Side question on illusions - disbelieving a project image doesn't dispel it, so it seems like the caster can still use it to cast spells through it regardless. Anyone disagree with the interpretation of illusion rules and the spell?

[aeauseth]

I suggest you read All About Illusions (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a). The relevant excerpt is:


Also for game purposes, we can define "interacting" with an illusion as doing something that could affect the illusion or allowing the illusion to have an affect on you. You have a valid claim to an interaction with an illusion when you attack it, touch it, talk to it, poke it with a stick, target it with a spell, or do something else that one might do with a real creature or object.

So the answer is YES, you should get a WILL save when you cast a fireball at an illusionary hydra.

Ideally the DM would roll the WILL save secretly on your behalf so you don't realize that something strange is going on.

[Wacky89]

I suggest you read All About Illusions (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a). The relevant excerpt is:



So the answer is YES, you should get a WILL save when you cast a fireball at an illusionary hydra.

Ideally the DM would roll the WILL save secretly on your behalf so you don't realize that something strange is going on.

but my DM ruled that since the fireball didnt target the hydra, I wouldn't get a saving throw. What do you guys think?

[Osiris]

The fireball seemed to interact with it, so the DM should secretly make your will save, because the hydra should look damaged and burned.

[SciChronic]

a giant explosion of fire engulfed the hydra and it didnt react whatsoever, i don't know about you, but that doesnt sound natural.

the hydra has to interact with the fireball as it was caught in the AoE, you should be allowed the will save.

[aeauseth]

but my DM ruled that since the fireball didnt target the hydra, I wouldn't get a saving throw. What do you guys think?

I'd still allow the save. You are expecting the hydra to behave in a certain fashion in response to your fireball. The fact that the hydra has to make a reflex save should grant you a WILL save. You are watching the hydra to see the outcome of the fireball, if you are wise enough you will see small tell tail signs that the hydra is an illusion.

I think your DM is cheating you, perhaps without realizing it. It's quite clear that you are interacting with the illusion, you just forced a reflex save! Shouldn't matter if it is a ranged touch attack (ray) or an area of effect (reflex save)?

[Wacky89]

a giant explosion of fire engulfed the hydra and it didnt react whatsoever, i don't know about you, but that doesnt sound natural.

the hydra has to interact with the fireball as it was caught in the AoE, you should be allowed the will save.

Exactly my thought. Thanks. I will let him know next time.

[Wacky89]

I just read what major image said, would that change anything? Can he make it show it was damaged?

The image disappears when
struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

[Togath]

In addition, unless I'm mistaken, hydra's do have at least an aversion to fire, so even if undamaged it would still likely react were it real.

[aeauseth]

I just read what major image said, would that change anything? Can he make it show it was damaged?

The image disappears when
struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

Major Image doesn't really change anything with regards to the "interaction" clause. Yes, I realize the hydra can move around, and the damage may appear real. You would still get a save. The DC is higher (because Major Image is a higher level spell).

There is one caveat. The DM may choose to have the hydra just take the fireball without trying to avoid it. In this case no reflex save is required by the hydra (it would automatically fail). If the hydra took no damage (pretending it has immunity to fire), then the DM may rule you get no WILL save because you didn't force the hydra to interact and the fireball had no apparent affect on it. Under these circumstances you should get a knowledge check to see if hydra are really immune to fire.

EDIT: The illusonary hydra is just an illusion that happens to look like a hydra. It is up to the caster to make it move realistically. Some DM's make the caster succeed on a knowledge check or actually have seen the monster before to simulate the illusion's movements and reactions. The illusion could look like a hydra but behave like a dog, the rules don't care. But if the player thinks something is amiss (generally by interacting with the illusion), they get a will save. There is nothing wrong with "pretending" that the illusionary hydra is immune to all energy attacks and is immune to magic (unbeatable SR).

[Jack_Simth]

ok so we discussed this a bit on the nights session. My gm made a major image of a hydra, I cast a fireball into the area where it was. Would I be allowed a saving throw for disbelief? Or doesn't it count as interacting with the spell?


major image says: The image disappears when
struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.

Doesn't that mean it can react to the fireball and show it was damaged by the fireball?
The area you need to be looking at is the Disbelief segment of the illusion school description in the magic overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrowsandIllusionsDisb elief). Trouble is, it's not tightly worded. Did you "interact with it in some fashion"? Probably. I'd definitely rule so if you hit it with a Fireball and give you the save at no penalty. However: Your DM has the final say.