Best type of damage/level?

[Legendxp]

Rogues are terrible, their d6's only work when flanking. Skirmish seems nice but what if your character has problems with movement? Sudden Strike has the same problems as sneak attack. A dragon shaman's breath weapon seems consistent but you may only use it once every 1d4 rounds, and there is a reflex save for half damage. Are there any other damage by level class abilities I'm missing? Which one is the best one? (I'm not looking for spells by the way)

[eggynack]

I think you've rather underrated sneak attack in your analysis. Rogues can sneak attack when flanking, but they can also sneak attack when the enemy's dexterity bonus to AC is denied. There're piles of ways to accomplish the latter condition, from marbles, to grease, to blinking, to invisibility, to hitting during the surprise round, to a bunch more. Sneak attack is actually probably the best ability on that list.

[holywhippet]

Rogue sneak attack dice also work when you take an enemy by surprise. I think invisibility also lets you use it, so greater invisibility will let you use it all the time (provided you have enemies that are vulnerable to it).

I'd add monk fists to your list. They improve in damage output based on monk level.

[Morcleon]

Warlock's eldritch blast. d6s of untyped damage, ranged touch attack.

Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon. d6s of fire damage (can be changed with class feature), AoE cone/line.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Warlock's eldrich blast is probably the most reliable-- a ranged touch attack for untyped energy damage.

Binder 1 (binding Naberius)/Warlock 8/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion (progressing Hellfire Warlock) 10 will get you a ranged touch attack for 26d6 untyped damage, at the 1 Con damage that heals almost instantly thanks to Naberius.

But a TWF-rogue will throw out more d6s than just about anything else.

[Snowbluff]

If you're using binder, I would say mix in Anima Mage with entry spellcasting cheese. 8 levels gives you another binding for vestiges like Adromalius.

For more d6, add in Hideous blow on a great sword with Lightning Gauntlets (Arms Chakra Bind) and Iaijutsu. :smalltongue:

[lsfreak]

I'd agree that you're undervaluing sneak attack. Get HiPS and pump your Hide checks, and you can be standing in front of someone stabbing them in the face and they still can't tell who's doing it. In terms of class abilities to deal damage, it's probably the best.

[Snowbluff]

Rogues were never good because of their damage output. Too many restrictions, I'd say. Too many feats spent on HiPS and TWF.

[Zombulian]

I agree that Scouts don't have the best damage scaling really, but they do have a very good way of improving their damage with one feat. Improved Skirmish gives an extra 2d6. On top of that, just to get MAXIMUM D6'age pick up Swift Ambusher to mix Skirmish and SA together.

[lsfreak]

Rogues were never good because of their damage output. Too many restrictions, I'd say. Too many feats spent on HiPS and TWF.

I shouldn't have said best, it takes work to pull off sneak attack to similar levels of reliability than, say, charging. If you can get HiPS and your Hide skill boosted, it is very likely the the highest damage output using a class ability as a source, except maybe something like glaivelocks (ab)using Legacy Champion to advance hellfire warlock. I wouldn't doubt an unseen seer can do it too, though that's primarily through CL-cheesing a permanencied Hunter's Eye, not using the innate sneak they get from class levels.

[Legendxp]

Thanks for the input guys I appreciate it. Completely forgot about warlock. Also, I was aware that there were other ways of pulling off sneak attacks I just didn't think they were as reliable.

[CombatOwl]

Rogues are terrible, their d6's only work when flanking.

If your party understands the notion of teamwork, getting flanking on an enemy is very simple. Rogues are good characters--they simply can't solo most encounters like primary spellcasters can.


Skirmish seems nice but what if your character has problems with movement? Sudden Strike has the same problems as sneak attack.

"Spells seem nice, but what if you're in a dead magic zone?" Seriously, anyone who plays a skirmisher and doesn't get some means of ignoring difficult terrain needs to have their head examined. There's a lot of ways to do it--if nothing else you can eventually just get a ring of freedom of movement (or, more properly, a few potions of it--since you don't really need it all the time).

Half your level in d6s for bonus damage on any strike you make when the opponent is flat footed, flanked, or otherwise denied their dex bonus to AC is hugely powerful if you build it right. If nothing else an archer can lay waste to people, since you get all that damage for each attack you make when it qualifies for sneak attack. Let me point out that all of this works with spring attack--or even more sickening, with mounted charges. If you're playing Pathfinder, you can also play with lunge. If you're playing 3.5e, stop complaining because it's only a DC 20 to tumble through an enemy's square without triggering an AOO.


Are there any other damage by level class abilities I'm missing?

All spellcasters. Because spellcasting is a class ability, and because a lot of the spells on the list are damage/CL, they count.


Which one is the best one? (I'm not looking for spells by the way)

Skirmishing. It's by far the easiest to reliably pull off. Seriously, all you have to do is move 10 feet? Warlocks have to put up with SR and such. Scouts? No, you just have to (somehow--through any means whatsoever) move 10 feet.

If you're in Pathfinder, that gets super broken with combat patrol, combat reflexes, and a reach weapon.

[DarkEternal]

Rogues and other kinds of characters that rely on precision damage are not at fault due to the fact that they have to flank or find someone without their dex, but because a lot of the monsters are immune to said damage, and really, any type of miss chance negates the ability for precision damage. Blink, cover, what have you.

[IronFist]

If you're using binder, I would say mix in Anima Mage with entry spellcasting cheese. 8 levels gives you another binding for vestiges like Adromalius.

For more d6, add in Hideous blow on a great sword with Lightning Gauntlets (Arms Chakra Bind) and Iaijutsu. :smalltongue:
I'm very disappointed in you, Snowbluff.
Return your Warlock membership card this very minute.
Hidebous Blow blows hideously!

[Psyren]

For a rogue, ring of blinking + seeking arrows = guaranteed sneak attack by RAW.

[Person_Man]

Anything with full BAB essentially gets a scaled bonus to damage from Power Attack and it's related feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087).

Evil Incarnates get a fairly strong bonus to damage (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916).

There are a bunch of different ways to stack size bonuses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) for damage. The Psychic Warrior (via Claws of the Beast) and Monk 1/Other Stuff That Effectively Counts as Monk 19 are particularly good at it.

There are several ways to optimize Smite abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492#post10289492), which scale with level. Though they're typically only 1 point per class level and only for one attack, it be optimized in such a way that it carries various other benefits.

Bard can optimize Inspire Courage to grant some fairly impressive damage bonuses with Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, etc.

[Shining Wrath]

What PersonMan said about Power Attack.

Critical-hit fishing scales more through improved equipment (keenness, Deathstrike bracers, kukris) than through levels, but I'll throw it out there for consideration. Then consider the various Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances that boost critical hits, and you can make a case for Warblade / Swordsage getting lots of scaling benefits from being a crit fisher.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skirmishing. It's by far the easiest to reliably pull off. Seriously, all you have to do is move 10 feet? Warlocks have to put up with SR and such. Scouts? No, you just have to (somehow--through any means whatsoever) move 10 feet.
Ehh... it's easy to get one attack off with skirmish, but it's a lot harder to get off full attacks while moving the distance. (A DC 40 Tumble check is your best bet)

[Zombulian]

Ehh... it's easy to get one attack off with skirmish, but it's a lot harder to get off full attacks while moving the distance. (A DC 40 Tumble check is your best bet)

Travel Devotion? Pounce ?

[Captnq]

Con Damage Poison.
Or Aboleth Mucus. 20 gp. Save or die. I think I can squeeze 20 gp into the WBL of a 1st level character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Travel Devotion? Pounce ?
Eh, Travel Devotion is limited usage, and requires a potentially out-of-character dip. Pounce only works for melee Scouts, and can leave you stuck next to the big bad if you don't kill him by the next turn.

[Telonius]

The Craven feat (from Champions of Ruin) is also an option for Rogues. +1 damage per level for sneak attacks. The sourcebook is a little obscure, but it's about as common to Rogue builds as Power Attack is to Fighters. Basically a class feature disguised as a splatbook feat.

[Zombulian]

Eh, Travel Devotion is limited usage, and requires a potentially out-of-character dip. Pounce only works for melee Scouts, and can leave you stuck next to the big bad if you don't kill him by the next turn.

Travel Devotion is a feat... You don't *have* to go Cleric with it. You still get 10 rounds per day of swift move actions.

[Rebel7284]

Rogue 1/wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Incantatrix 5

Persist Hunter's Eye.
Persist Wraithstrike
Persist Draconic Polymorph into Kelvedzu (spelling?)

Improved invisibility, roll a lot of d6 and kill people. :)

[Thrawn183]

The thing to remember about a Dragonfire Adept's damage is that it doesn't rely on anything other than character levels. Which means you don't need to worry about strength or dexterity.

Oh, and if focus you on using the breath weapon, you don't care about arcane spell failure from armor (nor the fact that you aren't proficient with it.)

Wait till you see a DFA "running" around in fullplate with maxed Constitution and the feat Steadfast Determination. The thing's almost unkillable.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Travel Devotion is a feat... You don't *have* to go Cleric with it. You still get 10 rounds per day of swift move actions.
You get one continuous minute of swift move actions-- good for one fight, in other words. You want those extra uses from turning undead.

[Equinox]

Start as Elven Cloistered Cleric 1 (Elf, Travel and Knowledge domains) - trade Travel for Travel Devotion, trade Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion, keep the Elf domain because it's a free Point Blank Shot. Then, take a single Ranger level, then 4 Scout levels, take Swift Hunter as your level 6 feat, and then Ranger levels all the way.

You end up with BAB +18, Skirmish +5d6, and Travel Devotion is reusable with Turn Undead attempts. Get Improved Rapid Shot along the way.