Redone barbarian; thoughts please.

[krossbow]

Hey, I was tinkering with the barbarian, as I personally don't think they fit the conan esque feel. After looking over Iron heroes Berserker, I've changed the Barbarian slightly as a house rule. Generally, a barbarian is seen as a barechested, unarmored guy who keeps going no matter what, and recovers from ridiculous blows; While the rage does that, the unarmored part isn't fulfilled, and they seem to fall a bit short of the idea with some things that don't seem to fit. I am considering running this build in a campaign I'm doing as NPCs and letting the PC's use it too, but I'd like everyone's thoughts on it. The barbarian will almost always be hit (90% of the time probably), so he has lots of HP to compensate.


Barbarian:
HD: 1d12
Skills: 4 per level
Skills: Jump, climb, swim, listen, spot, intimidate, suvival.
Armor prof: No armor proficiency
Weapons: Simple & Martial proficiency.
BAB: Best.
Reflex save: good
Fortitude save: Good
Will save: bad.
Must be Chaotic; if a barbarian becomes neutral or lawful, they lose their rage ability and unarmored fury.

1st level:
Rage 1/day
Unarmored fury +1
Bonus feat: Toughness.
Reserve pool.
2nd level:
DR1/-.
Animal instinct.
3rd level:
Wild swing.
Rage 2/day
4th level:
Bonus feat: improved toughness.
5th level:
DR2/-
Unarmored fury +2.
6th level: I
mproved power attack.
Rage 3/day.
7th level:
Improved Rage.
8th level:
DR3/-
Bonus feat: toughness
9th level:
Rage 4/day.
Increased reserve pool.
10th level:
Increase weapon size.
Unarmored fury +3
11th level:
DR4/-
Clouded mind.
12th level:
Bonus feat: toughness.
Rage 5/day
13th level:
Greater rage.
14th level:
DR5/-.
Increased reserve pool.
15th level:
Rage 6/day
Unarmored fury +4.
16th level:
Bonus feat: toughness
17th level:
DR6/-
Supreme power attack.
18th level:
Rage 7/day
Feral soul.
19th level:
Increased reserve pool
20th level:
DR7/-
Bonus feat: toughness.
Savage Rage
Unarmored fury +5

Bonus feats: At 1st level, 4th level, and every 4th level after that, the barbarian gains toughness as a bonus feat (except at level 4 where he gains improved toughness)

Unarmored fury: While unarmored, the barbarian is able to attack his foes better, gaining a +1 to hit. This increases to +2 at level 5, +3 at level 10, +4 at level 15, and +5 at level 20

Reserve pool: The barbarian has an amount of HP in a reserve pool equal to HP gained from barbarian levels and toughness (Does not count HP gained from other class levels). While the reserve pool is not empty, the barbarian has fast healing of 1. The hitpoints gained from fast healing are drained from the reserve pool, and when the reserve pool is empty, fast healing ends. Please note that damage is dealt to normal HP, and not the reserve pool. If the barbarian is reduced to -10 hit points and dies, fast healing immidiately stops.

The reserve points are refilled after sleeping; excess HP from magical healing does not fill up the reserve pool.

Increased reserve pool: The rate at which the barbarian heals from the reserve pool increases.

level 9: fast healing 3
level 14: fast healing 5
level 19: fast healing 7

Animal Instinct: The barbarian gains a dodge bonus while fighting unarmored equal to half his barbarian level.

Wild swing: The barbarian may subtract an amount from his AC and add it to his chance to hit this round; the amount may not exceed 5.

Damage reduction: The barbarian is able to shake off damage that would normally slow down another fighter; it starts at DR1/- at level 2, and increases by 1 every 3rd level after that (2,5,8,11,ect.)

Rage per day: The barbarian is limited in the number of rages he may enter per day. It begins at 1/day at level 1, increases to 2/day at level 3, and then increases by 1 more every 3rd level (6,9,12, ect.)

Rage: A number of times per day, the barbarian may enter a rage. This grants the barbarian a +4 to strength and 2 temporary hit points per barbarian level for 5+con modifier rounds; they suffer a -2 to AC while in rage. After the rage ends, the barbarian is fatigued for 1 minute. The barbarian is unable to gain their strength bonus while wearing armor, as armor restricts their wild frenzied swings (they still gain the bonus hit points).

Improved Rage: The barbarian's rage increases, giving him a +6 to strength and 3 temporary hit points per barbarian level.

Greater Rage: The barbarian's rage increases, giving him a +8 to strength, and 4 temporary hit points per barbarian level.

Savage Rage: The barbarian's rage increases, giving him a +10 to strength and 5 temporary hit points per barbarian level.

Improved power attack: When power attacking with a weapon in two hands, the barbarian gains +3 damage for every -1 to hit.

Supreme power attack: When power attacking with a weapon in two hands, the barbarian gains a +4 to damage for every -1 to hit.

Increased weapon size: a barbarian may wield a weapon two size catagories larger than him (huge for a medium creature) in two hands with no penalty.

Clouded mind: The barbarian's bonus to will saves vs. mental affects while in rage increases to +4.

Feral soul: The barbarian's bonus to will saves vs. mental affects while in rage increases to +6




Edit: Hope it's cleaner; per suggestions, increased skills per level to 4. Open to suggestions on other skills that they should have on their skill list.

[Rainspattered]

Trap sense is meant to explain an animal instinct for danger. Also, barbarians are primarily drawns straight out of Robert E. Howard's Conan; not the movie one mind you, but the one with a brain who was sneaky and celver in addition to strong and unstoppable. He frequently sensed traps that killed the rest of the dudes he was adventuring with. I like trap sense, and really think it should stay, but the DR and revisions to armour make sense, I think.

[geez3r]

With the Reserve Pool, does that mean that a barbarian effectively have double normal Hp? Does the reserve pool get depleted first, or what?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

No survival as a class skill?

[amanodel]

2skill points per level? Barbarians have INT as the dump stat most of the time, that change alone is going to kill them!

You are goning to make a barbarian genocide with this. Grant them some natural armor bonus at least. Bracers of defense won't save them in the long run. At higher levels beasts hit strong. Much more stronger than the fast healing could handle.

Also, it only fits conan movie-esque barbarians. Why can't they wear at least leather armor? Sure thing that mr. president looks good on the movie... but...

But given that in 95% of fantasy camapign setting the barbarians come from the North, either give them some leather armor or cold resistance 5. They'd freeze do death bare-chestedly otherwise. :)

[krossbow]

With the Reserve Pool, does that mean that a barbarian effectively have double normal Hp? Does the reserve pool get depleted first, or what?

The reserve pool works this way: They have fast healing, but only until the reserve pool runs out (fast healing is drawn from the reserve pool). So, they have, in a limited fashion, double HP, just the HP can't be drawn out fast.
Normal HP is depleted as usual. Just they get fast healing from the reserve pool.



Good point on the survival; edited in.



As for it being genocide, Yeah, they will get hit alot, but thats why they have so much HP, and the toughness feats. Their style is to kill before getting killed, so thats kind of how it's designed. At low levels, they will rely on their large HP, and at high levels, they will have decent AC from the animal instict ability (8 AC at level 16, as compared to a magic +3 breastplate also having 8 AC).

barbarians usually have bad AC as is with rage and whatnot; this way, they at least hit alot better and harder than before, as they gain bonus's to hit. Also, animal instict with bracers of armor should work.



The reason why I'm confident that a barbarian can survive with low AC and lots of HP is that I've seen it work in Iron heroes. The berserker starts off with almost no AC, but he is able to kill enemies so fast, and recover with reserve points that it doesn't matter. In D&D you usually take less damage by killing an enemy quickly than by High AC, so thats the basis.

[geez3r]

I like it, I always hated armor check penalties. Needs play testing to determine balance though. However, with the ToB being introduced, we should expect melee classes to be a bit more powerful than normal.

[Peregrine]

High HP will not save you and your low AC against magical attacks, say those that force a save-or-die. (Admittedly, most of those are touch attacks, so armour's no use anyway...) You mention Iron Heroes -- isn't that a low-magic setting, or am I confusing it with something?

Also, you seem to have dropped the nonlawful requirement. Having recently come from the 'chaotic monks' thread, I think this might be a bit of a problem. Especially now that barbarians, like monks, use no armour. A barbarian monk is going to have a lot of synergy -- they both tackle the no-armour problem in different ways, ways that stack.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Also coming out of that same thread, I have to say this:

Use the format for table building. It should be stickied at the top of the Homebrew thread list. It's really difficult for me to visualize all this, call me Lawful. :b

[krossbow]

High HP will not save you and your low AC against magical attacks, say those that force a save-or-die.


Actually, it should be pretty hard. Note that animal instinct is a dodge bonus: this means that touch attacks will have a HUGE chance to fail against a barbarian (comparitively). A level 10 barbarian with 16 dex will have a touch AC of 18; compare that with a rouge with 20 dex's 15.

Since almost all magic attacks (I don't know of one that isn't) are touch attacks, that kind of means the barbarian would be the magic dodging king.

My reasoning here is that a barbarian will be very hard to take down magically: they have good reflex saves in this version, and good fortitude, and a great touch AC at high levels. In addition, they have good will saves vs. mental affects in a rage. There are off course the normal wall of force, flight, ect. problems, but thats impossible to get rid of non-magically.


Iron heroes is a low magic system, yes, but that generally boils down to no magic items; they have an arcanist class which can sling spells (though considerably less powerful than a wizard). Magic and Iron heroes would run into trouble on the saves, not mechanics (Iron heroes uses much better saves).

I based the concept on it, but most of it isn't that different from D&D







I must admit, you are definitely right on the Monk thing. That is a problem. I was thinking along the lines of monks not being able to dip for much (as monks wouldn't be getting too much, and they suck as is), not barbarians dipping. I'll put the chaotic thing back in. Thanks alot, I'll edit.




Also coming out of that same thread, I have to say this:

Use the format for table building. It should be stickied at the top of the Homebrew thread list. It's really difficult for me to visualize all this, call me Lawful. :b


thanks, I'll try that.

[mikeejimbo]

I would make the Strength bonus during rage equal the their armor's maximum Dex mod, to represent how restricting it would be. That way, they can still wear leather armors.

I think.

[Proven_Paradox]

I like the idea of a barbarian that can do a lot of the same things as rangers can. I kind of think they should have more skill poits (since, as mentioned earlier, they usually dump int or cha) and more class skills. I kind of think scent should be in there somewhere too. That way the have at least SOME use outside of combat.

Other than that, this is an interesting re-do of a class that desperately needed one. I might help you with play-testing it sometime.

[geez3r]

I noticed that you also increased the size category of a weapon that a barbarian can weild. It might be a bit much to increase it 2 size categories though, especially without penalty. A 2-handed weapon is the same size category as the weilder, so a barbarian could weild a greatsword, for example, with a base damage of 4d6 without penalty. But hey, it's your class, do with it what you want. Personally, I don't mind having this ability, at all.

[amanodel]

Most of the time you can't kill a monster in one turn, and the barbarian will be there in the front for the moster to unleash a full attack. With so inferior AC the monster can power attack for very high amounts.

Let's take a horned devil (CR16) for example. Full attack goes like: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

Against a such a low-armored foe it can easily go for 10 PA. That's (assuming that +15 won't hit) 4d6+30+40+2d8+5+10+2d6+5+10. 6d6+2d8+100. 130 on avarage, minus 4xDR5/-, 20. Still 110. The fast healing won't save you. Barbarian would have 16d12+12(toughness)+16(imp toughness)+16x4(con). 66+12+16+64=158. It's very thin, and the barbarian will fall on second turn. If raging, it's 4x16=64 temporary hp. Barbarian lasts two turns if the cleric can't nuke the demon in the meantime.

Barbarian will hit, on a full attack +16(BAB), +6(STR), +4(rage) +4(fury). +30/+25/+20/+15. Devil's AC is 35. No chance for PA to work well. Even if a lucky +10 PA works one time, bbn will score 4d6+10+20=44. -10 for the DR. Using wild swing (a homicidal move) will let you hit maybe twice 34x2=68. So you basically still can't hit a tough foe, but it rips your heart out. (Raging and wild swing decreases your AC with furter -7. That'd let the demon PA for more.)

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea to have a conan class, just give them some AC. I'd suggest diablo2-esque natural AC and resistance to elemental attacks. Mikeejimbo's idea's also a good one.


In addition, they have good will saves vs. mental affects in a rage. +4 to a bad will save? Against a save DC of higher than 20 it's like not even rolling for the save.

Not letting them wear an armor makes DEX very important to them, and if you max out STR DEX and CON (all is a must), you will have inferor WIS and even worse CHA and INT. They will be as dumb as movie conan, and will fail all of their will saves.

It'd make a really powerful warrior against foes that can't hit big. But still very vulnerable against monsters with high damage output. Or can cast spells. Slightly better than the original, but still weak.

[krossbow]

I noticed that you also increased the size category of a weapon that a barbarian can weild. It might be a bit much to increase it 2 size categories though, especially without penalty. A 2-handed weapon is the same size category as the weilder, so a barbarian could weild a greatsword, for example, with a base damage of 4d6 without penalty. But hey, it's your class, do with it what you want. Personally, I don't mind having this ability, at all.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that a greatsword was large (a full-blade is huge). I can't check till this weekend since I left my book at the dorm, but I do remember the fullblade being huge.




Let's take a horned devil (CR16) for example. Full attack goes like: Spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d6+15 plus stun) and bite +22 melee (2d8+5) and tail +22 melee (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

Against a such a low-armored foe it can easily go for 10 PA. That's (assuming that +15 won't hit) 4d6+30+40+2d8+5+10+2d6+5+10. 6d6+2d8+100. 130 on avarage, minus 4xDR5/-, 20. Still 110. The fast healing won't save you. Barbarian would have 16d12+12(toughness)+16(imp toughness)+16x4(con). 66+12+16+64=158. It's very thin, and the barbarian will fall on second turn. If raging, it's 4x16=64 temporary hp. Barbarian lasts two turns if the cleric can't nuke the demon in the meantime.



a level 16 barbarian (thats a CR 16 monster) will have a natural dodge bonus to AC of 8. Thats the same as +3 breastplate. At level two they get animal instinct (half of their barbarian level as AC. they HAVE natural AC, just it's very low at low levels).

Given that the barbarian could purchase bracers of armor, I don't think thats a problem.



Bracers of armor +3, animal instinct, 14 dex, +2 ring of protection; should have 25 AC.

a -10 would give them a 50/50 on the first, and the rest should miss.


In addition, by this point, they should have a magic sword and some items to increase his strength; your not counting in all the magic stuff that a level 16 character would have.

He should get from +1 to +4 from a magic weapon, and should have a magic item to increase his strength by 2 to 4.

He'd be able to hit fairly well, and much better than pretty much any other class.





You're right on the will save though; I don't want to increase it again though, as I don't want him to be able to just ignore casters. Hmmm... think a +6 at 18 would be too much?

[geez3r]

From the SRD: "A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder"

[krossbow]

Ah; thanks!
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[amanodel]

What about immunity in greater and higher states of rages? Sorta 2.5 berserkers. You can even give them SR / bbn levels while in rage. That would save their asses in tight situations.

[krossbow]

Well, that is a good idea, but I can't help but think immunity in rage is too good since they have good reflex saves and fortitude saves. I upped the bonus to +6 at 18 (which essentially gives them a good will save progression, making all their saves good while in rage), but I think immunity in rage is too much.

Immunity is how it's done in iron heroes, and it's not overpowering in that game, but I can't help but feel that in D&D, the casters would have a hard time if the barbarian was immune (as his touch AC would be high, he'd have great reflex, and his fortitude would be horribly unwise). I think they should have a slight weak spot to aim at, and a +6 in rage means that they should have a decent chance to make saves.

Hmmm....


I'm going to crunch what the average will saves thrown at a guy of level 18-20 would be, and what a barbarian with a 10-12 wisdom's chances would be against those. If it's less that 50-60%, I think your idea would be best and I'll change it to immunity at 18.
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[amanodel]

A will save DC at higher levels is around 25-30-ish. Your barbarian would have 2 (wis) + 6 (bbn) + 8 (rage) = 16 at the high end. Feats and items bump it up to +20-22. Still fails in most of the times.

I'd give them immunity to any fear effects, a high resistance against mind-affecting spells, and some SR too.

Indomitable will, as currently stands, is good for nothing. I'd replace that with these ideas.

Nothing is more pathetic than a Conan-esque barbarian fleeing from the combat. Nothing.

Sure if given all the immunity and resistnace they'd be at least a minor threat to casters. But that was their supposed role. Conan smash wurriurz, conan smash monstarz, conan smash wizard. Even if immune to fear and having a high resistnce to others the wizard BBEG or a casting monster will be much more stronger in the higher levels. So don't be shy giving them some real power.

[Traveling_Angel]

Nicely done! Pwnage fighter of doom!

[Matthew]

Seems like something of a Power Up for the Barbarian; not to my taste, but an interesting variant.