What Actually is a Hipster?

[Milo v3]

See title of this thread

[Lord Raziere]

A hollow thing. One without any direction, or any underlying goal.

it is only a distorted mirror, looking upon what is "mainstream", and reflecting back its opposite, each person seeing something different in its strange funhouse frame.

There is nothing deeper within.

There is only the shell of perceived non-comformity, and underneath that?

nothing.

[Tebryn]

If you have to ask, you aren't one.

[SiuiS]

A person of a culture who eschews commonality. You'll see it to varying degrees, from people who do things 'ironically' to those who will actually completely change style, mannerism, opinion and preference based on popularity.

I tell you, few things are weirder than knowing someone who starts and then stops a hobby over three weeks based entirely on popularity.

[GoblinArchmage]

I am the one sitting alone in the cafeteria, typing slam poetry on my iPad.

I am the one loitering in the Apple store, telling whoever will listen about the superiority of the iPhone OS from three years ago over the current version.

I am the one in the coffee shop, wearing the scarf in the middle of Summer, listening to The Smashing Pumpkins on my iPod.

I am the future; I am Indie; I am hipster.

[Milo v3]

So it's people trying to not do what everyone else does...
Hmm... so someone make sure they never drink coffe or tea in their entire lives to make themselves less mundane, would likely be a hipster?

[Tebryn]

So it's people trying to not do what everyone else does...
Hmm... so someone make sure they never drink coffe or tea in their entire lives to make themselves less mundane, would likely be a hipster?

No...? Maybe if that was the only reason?

[Milo v3]

No...? Maybe if that was the only reason?

The reason for never drinking tea or coffee in their life is so that they can be less mundane and able to say something most people can't. His favourite bands all use "old instruments", only wears skinny jeans (not sure how this is hipster at all???), and if you ask him what music he likes he defaults to saying "you wouldn't know them."

That's probably not all, but since I got no idea what a hipster really is I'm just saying stuff that was repeated abit by people saying he was a hipster.

Some people have said he was a hipster, but I have no idea what a hipster is other than them saying he is one so I am unsure, thus this thread.

[GoblinArchmage]

The reason for never drinking tea or coffee in their life is so that they can be less mundane and able to say something most people can't. His favourite bands all use "old instruments", only wears skinny jeans (not sure how this is hipster at all???), and if you ask him what music he likes he defaults to saying "you wouldn't know them."

That's three or four checks for "yes" so far.

Ask him if he thought Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist was a good movie.

[Tebryn]

The reason for never drinking tea or coffee in their life is so that they can be less mundane and able to say something most people can't. His favourite bands all use "old instruments", only wears skinny jeans (not sure how this is hipster at all???), and if you ask him what music he likes he defaults to saying "you wouldn't know them."

That's probably not all, but since I got no idea what a hipster really is I'm just saying stuff that was repeated abit by people saying he was a hipster.

Some people have said he was a hipster, but I have no idea what a hipster is other than them saying he is one so I am unsure, thus this thread.

Is this a person you know personally or know people who know? I mean...that's a strange motivation to avoid a drink but it's no weirder than say...wearing a cape because no one does. I had a college professor who wore a cape for that reason and I wouldn't call him a hipster and that's -way- more strange than not drinking a beverage.

[Tebryn]

And hey. Hitler was a hipster. (http://hipsterhitler.com/)

[Milo v3]

That's three or four checks for "yes" so far.

Ask him if he thought Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist was a good movie.
He's never heard of it.


Is this a person you know personally or know people who know? I mean...that's a strange motivation to avoid a drink but it's no weirder than say...wearing a cape because no one does. I had a college professor who wore a cape for that reason and I wouldn't call him a hipster and that's -way- more strange than not drinking a beverage.
I know him. I'm either first or second person closest to him.

EDIT:
What is a hipster? Better than you, apparently (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/hipsters-are-better-than-you-say-researchers-2013021259405).
I'm sure he'd love to here that he is better than everyone else. :smalltongue:


And hey. Hitler was a hipster. (http://hipsterhitler.com/)
I can't see that because of blocks on my laptop... but it sounds very chilling...

[Tebryn]

Well then, let him know that there's a whole section of the American population that doesn't drink tea or coffee. I'll..just let you look that up. But not drinking either isn't interesting or all that weird.

[Milo v3]

Well then, let him know that there's a whole section of the American population that doesn't drink tea or coffee. I'll..just let you look that up. But not drinking either isn't interesting or all that weird.

It's pretty obvious that some people wouldn't drink either, when it was raised he said that they wouldn't drink either because they dislike the flavour or for a similiar reason. Which is ridiculously flimsy as a response, IMO.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well, it depends entirely what hipster you mean...

There's the older definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipster_(1940s_subculture)) (which is the one I am familliar with), and the more modern one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipster_(contemporary_subculture)).

I didn't come across the modern one until I read Scott Pilgrim a couple of years ago. It took me a while to understand what the fuss was about...

[nedz]

this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197133) is relevant.

[Juhn]

Hipsters are typically characterized primarily by a pathological avoidance of (and disdain for) "the mainstream". The more obscure or underground a thing is, the better it is, entirely for being obscure or underground rather than anything having to do with their actual quality. They also tend to deliberately try to come off as "weird" or "quirky".

[Tylorious]

He's never heard of it.


I know him. I'm either first or second person closest to him.

EDIT:
I'm sure he'd love to here that he is better than everyone else. :smalltongue:


I can't see that because of blocks on my laptop... but it sounds very chilling...

I have this weird feeling that we are talking about you?

[Aedilred]

It's hard to say "what" a hipster is, because hipsters tend to stand for pretty much nothing (other than the aforementioned non-"mainstream"). The wikipedia article linked above by Manga Shoggoth is actually pretty good in explaining what is generally meant by "hipster" today.

One of their more unifying features, I think, is a general lack of authenticity. They never really appear to be enjoying themselves, but they don't revel in it like Goths. They'll self-define as "creative" but tend either not to create anything themselves or to be extremely derivative in their creations; rather, they move into neighbourhoods populated by actual artists and musicians because they're cool, and driving up the prices so the art scene has to move on.

They'll mix and match a cod vintage aesthetic based not on an understanding of the actual provenance of the clothes in question but because it's not worn by the "mainstream" (except, of course, the mainstream of their own subculture). They'll go to obscure gigs and pop-up bars solely because of their obscurity.

If you ever ask them why they're doing <this apparently ridiculous thing> a go to response is that they're doing it "ironically". For instance, the male hipster is the only person in the history of the universe ever to wear an ironic moustache.

They aren't the subculture the millennials need, but they're the subculture we deserve.

[Grinner]

It even has its own show! (https://www.youtube.com/show/portlandia)

[Tylorious]

It even has its own show! (https://www.youtube.com/show/portlandia)

AHHHH!!! I won't be able to sleep tonight.

[The Succubus]

It's a pelvister that didn't go mainstream.

[Jaycemonde]

It's hard to say "what" a hipster is, because hipsters tend to stand for pretty much nothing (other than the aforementioned non-"mainstream"). The wikipedia article linked above by Manga Shoggoth is actually pretty good in explaining what is generally meant by "hipster" today.

One of their more unifying features, I think, is a general lack of authenticity. They never really appear to be enjoying themselves, but they don't revel in it like Goths. They'll self-define as "creative" but tend either not to create anything themselves or to be extremely derivative in their creations; rather, they move into neighbourhoods populated by actual artists and musicians because they're cool, and driving up the prices so the art scene has to move on.

They'll mix and match a cod vintage aesthetic based not on an understanding of the actual provenance of the clothes in question but because it's not worn by the "mainstream" (except, of course, the mainstream of their own subculture). They'll go to obscure gigs and pop-up bars solely because of their obscurity.

If you ever ask them why they're doing <this apparently ridiculous thing> a go to response is that they're doing it "ironically". For instance, the male hipster is the only person in the history of the universe ever to wear an ironic moustache.

They aren't the subculture the millennials need, but they're the subculture we deserve.

I think this is probably the most accurate description thus far. Saying anyone who prefers obscure stuff is a hipster is too vague (I bet hipsters ain't never heard of DOG HUSBAND, LIVING TOILET!), saying that hipsters all like Mumford & Sons (which is actually a great band, so it pains me to know hipsters listen to them) is too specific, but I think you've nailed it. They become their own mainstream culture because the sheer number of unimaginative "noncomformists" ARE conforming to an idealized vision.

EDIT: And hey! There are other, less aggravating subcultures out there. Granted, none of them are exclusive to millennials, although they do make up a good portion.

[razark]

For instance, the male hipster is the only person in the history of the universe ever to wear an ironic moustache.
Where is the irony in an ironic moustache, anyway?

[TheThan]

looks like it's basically just modern counterculture, nothing really that new and probably best ignored.

[edit]
note to self: read whole thread, then post.

[Irenaeus]

It's a polemical category used to describe somebody who's like a geek, only he or she geeks about cultural interests instead of fandom or gaming, and probably has a fashion sense.

Depending on my mood and the actual individuals in question, I might prefer their company to geeks. A lot of good trends right now is strongly associated with what at least a large portion of the populace deems to be hipsterish, like microbreweries and indie rock.

[Jaycemonde]

It's a polemical category used to describe somebody who's like a geek, only he or she geeks about cultural interests instead of fandom or gaming, and probably has a fashion sense.


...and probably has a fashion sense.


fashion sense

Uh...huh. I'll get back to you on that.

[Lord Raziere]

The real problem with hipsters though, is that they clearly don't know the basic truths of media, which are thus:

Truth one: the media is an essential component of our lives

truth two: there is no mainstream media

truth three: everything from the margin moves to the center

truth four: nothings new, everything that happened in the past, will happen again

truth five: new media are always scary

truth six: activism and analysis are not the same thing

truth seven: there is no "they"

the truths relevant to this discussion are two and three, and probably four.
there is no "mainstream" to be against. maybe that would've worked back when the Big Three was all that was on tv, but these days our culture is fractured and going off in a thousand different directions, there is subcultures within subcultures, and they all think that the other subcultures are a part of some larger majority that isn't there. whatever the hipster thinks is the mainstream, probably isn't, or the hipster is being highly specific about what kind of mainstream he thinks he is going against.

next is that everything on the margins eventually comes to the center- by adopting what they perceive to be the less popular thing, they actually make it more popular. you get me? the stuff that is at first seen as scary and unfamiliar gradually becomes less and less alien and scary, and eventually becomes apart of everything else that people just accept as normal. by adopting that, and showing off how hipster they are, the expose others to this less popular thing. people eventually become comfortable with it, and its accepted into the "mainstream". thus the hipster is self-defeating. the more they scramble to find something new to be hipster about, the more they grease the revolving doors of culture to allow something new in to be accepted even faster.

Thus, the hipster is either a mercurial person constantly trying to stand out for the sake of standing out, or they are one who thinks they are against the "mainstream" but never bothered to actually check if he is anymore, or if he ever was. true individuals need not the way of the hipster, for down that path, only madness lies.

[GoblinArchmage]

I have this weird feeling that we are talking about you?

Uh oh, Milo. It looks like your secret is out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Some people are sheep, content to follow the herd. Others are housecats, not necessarily disruptive but on their own. Hipsters are the dumb sheep who think they can be cats by walking in a sorta-sideways direction to the other sheep, but then always run to catch up to take this other side path that they're convinced is better.

[Benthesquid]

Generally speaking if Person A is calling Person B a hipster, what they mean is that Person B likes things, or doesn't, or does but pretends not to, or doesn't but pretends to, if and that Person A wishes to make a comment at Person B's expense.

At least, that's how I tend to see it used.

[Giggling Ghast]

It has an obscure definition. I'm not surprised you haven't heard of it.

The dangers of hipster labelling:

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2010-12-20.jpg

[thubby]

basically the polar opposite of someone who is trendy. hipsters actively avoid the popular.
the irony of course being that such a person is still entirely controlled by things like fashion trends, just not in the same way.

in my armchair psych opinion, it stems from an immature attempt to be unique without actually having the will to shrug off social pressure.

[Milo v3]

I have this weird feeling that we are talking about you?


Uh oh, Milo. It looks like your secret is out.

'Ppears my lack of subtly is yet again my undoing...

[Mando Knight]

basically the polar opposite of someone who is trendy. hipsters actively avoid the popular.
the irony of course being that such a person is still entirely controlled by things like fashion trends, just not in the same way.

Actually, they're ironically trendy in that they follow the trends of the hipster subculture.

Hipsters are too mainstream now anyway. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

At one time, I'd have said a hipster was a geek who was afraid to like the things they liked with the unashamed passion of a geek, so they did it 'ironically'.
Now though, the term has become impossibly diluted, meaning little, if anything, specific.
To quote Jared, (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/your-homework-is-to-go-rewatch-incredibles) "When everyone is hipsters, no one is," in an obvious riff on Syndrome's line.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Why did a hipster burn his tongue? Why, he drank his coffee before it was cool. :smalltongue:

Actually, they're ironically trendy in that they follow the trends of the hipster subculture.

Hipsters are too mainstream now anyway. :smalltongue:
Basically, this.

I want to add that 80% of the hipsters I've met work at coffee shops or restaurants, have creative hobbies (that they suck at), like to be associated with the arts without actually doing them and tend not to have much in the way of career goals as that's "too mainstream."

An observation I've made is that the last point is correlation, not causation: it's just as likely many people with little career ambition become hipsters for the social acceptance and justification of having little ambition.

You will almost never see construction worker or engineer hipsters. You will, for some reason, see quite a few scientist hipsters.

Finally, some are conventionally successful people working high-end jobs that simply like to be hipsters during off-time for the social scene. There are very few of these.

[Irenaeus]

Uh...huh. I'll get back to you on that.
When compared to geeks? Absolutely and by a wide margin. Also, hygiene.

[Aedilred]

When compared to geeks? Absolutely and by a wide margin. Also, hygiene.
Depends what you mean by fashion sense, of course. Almost by definition, hipsters are inherently unfashionable; the difference between them and geeks is that hipsters actively strive to be unfashionable, whereas geeks just are either through ignorance or disinterest. As earlier noted, it's a constant struggle for hipsters too to stay outside mainstream fashion, since they tend to bend fashion in their direction through sheer numbers, uniformity and spending power.

If by fashion sense we just mean "well-dressed", then, yes, the average hipster is probably rather better-dressed and with better hygiene than the average (classic) geek, but that's setting the bar extremely low. Compared to other subcultures, or even "normative" dress, I think hipsters fall some way short of the median.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you're looking to buy an umbrella, find one in a store near Oxford street, and later discover that the store was a world-famous department store and not just a small-time operation, does that make you a hipster? That's buying something that's supposed to be popular, but with no idea that it was supposed to be that way.

If finding out that the shop was popular makes you feel bad and want a different umbrella, then maybe.

But really its just a judgemental elitist insult. Some people want to feel better than other people, so they adopt a meme that there are these people called hipsters that you can laugh at.

Its also a lot easier to laugh at things you don't understand than try to learn about them, so assuming that anyone who likes a band you've never heard of is just doing so to be contrary and elitist is a readily available source of self esteem for people who are worried that liking what other people like makes them stupid.

When you're insecure, you want to project your own insecurity onto other people. When you feel smarter than other people but aren't 100% sure of your actual superiority, you want to convince yourself that other people who think they're smarter than you are actually inferior to you.

What a Hipster actually is is nebulous and inexact because the critique also tends to be focused around nebulous things like 'emptiness', 'authenticity' and 'objective artistic merit'. When the values we use to gage our social credibility are so utterly meaningless, or insults towards those we feel have no social credibility will naturally be equally meaningless.


Depends what you mean by fashion sense, of course. Almost by definition, hipsters are inherently unfashionable;

Fashion sense is the ability to coordinate various pieces of clothing with the other factor's of one's appearance in order to look both interesting and natural.

Hipsters are not inherently unfashionable, being fashionable is not about wearing what everyone wears but about wearing what everyone else will be wearing later. Its about being ahead of the trend, not about following the trend. The Hipster cliché of liking obscure things and then abandoning them when they become common place is pretty much fashion incarnate.

[Aedilred]

But really its just a judgemental elitist insult. Some people want to feel better than other people, so they adopt a meme that there are these people called hipsters that you can laugh at.
It's funny you say that, because I think what you've got right there (in essence rather than specifics) is one of the core elements of "hipsterism".

If you get stuck in a conversation with a proper geek about one of his pet subjects, it might well be very boring, but you'll get the impression that the geek in question is at least enthusiastic about the subject, and his failure to realise that you aren't is either because he's so enthusiastic about it he hasn't noticed or can't understand why anyone wouldn't be, or because his social skills just aren't up to snuff.

With a hipster, the same sort of conversations happen, but I never get the impression they're actually enthusiastic or interested in what they're talking about, rather, they're telling you about it to demonstrate how much cooler they are than you. The classic hipster catchphrase is "You've probably never heard of [it]". That's not an apology, it's a boast.


Fashion sense is the ability to coordinate various pieces of clothing with the other factor's of one's appearance in order to look both interesting and natural.
That's why I said "depends what you mean" because that's what people do sometimes mean when they say "fashion". But really, "fashion" is about what's conventional right now; i.e. the "mainstream" that hipsters are trying so hard to avoid. Merely dressing well without regard to prevailing trends would just be "dress sense" or perhaps "style".

[Traab]

For me personally, I define hipster as someone who is constantly searching for the most obscure anything, band, club, hobby, book, movie, then glomps it and tries to master everything about it, all the while talking about how amazing it is and how that makes him awesome because he isnt doing what "the mainstream" does. Then as soon as it becomes well known, he dumps it. He is the type of guy who would brag that he watched "Gangnam Style" back when it had under a million hits. Or that he liked "x" director back when he created some indie movie, before he directed, I dunno, Titanic or something. He would brag that he liked such and such big band, when they were playing in bars across his home state. How he liked Tolkien before he sold out and stopped writing dictionaries. :smallbiggrin:

[Aedilred]

For me personally, I define hipster as someone who is constantly searching for the most obscure anything, band, club, hobby, book, movie, then glomps it and tries to master everything about it, all the while talking about how amazing it is and how that makes him awesome because he isnt doing what "the mainstream" does. Then as soon as it becomes well known, he dumps it. He is the type of guy who would brag that he watched "Gangnam Style" back when it had under a million hits. Or that he liked "x" director back when he created some indie movie, before he directed, I dunno, Titanic or something. He would brag that he liked such and such big band, when they were playing in bars across his home state. How he liked Tolkien before he sold out and stopped writing dictionaries. :smallbiggrin:
You were better before you sold out and joined this forum.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It's funny you say that, because I think what you've got right there (in essence rather than specifics) is one of the core elements of "hipsterism".

All judgemental memes will always have an element of 'takes one to know one'. Eg there's something that could be described as being 'ironic' about them. We feel that someone is looking down on us, so we look down on them for looking down on us from a pedestal of stuff we designate as undesirable.


If you get stuck in a conversation with a proper geek about one of his pet subjects,

With a hipster, the same sort of conversations happen, but I never get the impression they're actually enthusiastic or interested in what they're talking about, rather, they're telling you about it to demonstrate how much cooler they are than you.

I don't assign people I meet to artificial categories, so I can't confirm this at all from my own experience. But your example is full of negative judgements. You're making assumptions on how other people think that make them seem inferior (or 'shallow' but that's basically a meaningless phrase the same thing).


For me personally, I define hipster as someone who is constantly searching for the most obscure anything, band, club, hobby, book, movie, then glomps it and tries to master everything about it, all the while talking about how amazing it is and how that makes him awesome because he isnt doing what "the mainstream" does.

Or that he liked "x" director back when he created some indie movie, before he directed, I dunno, Titanic or something.

So basically its just a vilification of some relatively normal impulses that the person using the term negatively wants to shame.

James Cameron did make better movies before he made Titanic. Wanting to investigate new things is just a normal mixture of curiosity and enthusiasm. Lots of bands do those their edge over time so they can't sustain the ability to appeal to fans of edgy unpolished music because their skills will naturally improve. So people who like their music that way are pretty much doomed to that sort of behaviour if they want to enjoy themselves.

Criticising that sort of behaviour is just petty.

[Traab]

You were better before you sold out and joined this forum.

I only take part in it ironically. This forum was better when they let me post as a guest.

[BRC]

Hipsters are the ultimate manifestation of a culture that celebrates both individualism and trends.

We are all raised with the message of "be yourself! Be an individual!" we grew up watching movies of the unpopular underdog versus the "popular" kids.
At the same time we want to be fashionable, wear the right clothes, listen to the right music, ect. But we also want to loudly declare " I am my own person! I am not a slave to the corporate trend machine!"

So the result is the hipster, though im not sure anybody identified as such. A fashion based around loudly declaring that you don't care about fashion. It's hip to be square, cool to be uncool. If you like something cool you must make it clear that you dont like it because its cool. Hence why Hipsters brag about liking bands early, or saying they appreciate something on a deeper level than most.
Of course the same cultural forces that created the hipster lead to hipster backlash.

[Aedilred]

I don't assign people I meet to artificial categories...
When you see over a hundred people queuing to get into the same cool bar all dressed in similar outfits (skinny jeans, checked shirts, hats, etc.) and dozens more pouring out of the nearby station to join them, and it's not a theme night, I don't think there's anything artificial about assigning them to a category.

[Closet_Skeleton]

When you see over a hundred people queuing to get into the same cool bar all dressed in similar outfits (skinny jeans, checked shirts, hats, etc.) and dozens more pouring out of the nearby station to join them, and it's not a theme night, I don't think there's anything artificial about assigning them to a category.

I have selective vision so people queuing for bars are invisible to me.

Or maybe people who stand outside clubs in Wales just don't look like anything.

[Don Julio Anejo]

At the same time we want to be fashionable, wear the right clothes, listen to the right music, ect.
Eh, in my observation this goes away for most people after high school and there is no longer such a thing as "popular-cool," rather everyone seeks to identify themselves by something, be it artsy, or geeky, or, well, hipster.

Edit: thought this video was relevant. Hipsters or homeless (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a1FdDf72AQ), a pop quiz by Max :smallamused:

[BRC]

Eh, in my observation this goes away for most people after high school and there is no longer such a thing as "popular-cool," rather everyone seeks to identify themselves by something, be it artsy, or geeky, or, well, hipster.

Edit: thought this video was relevant. Hipsters or homeless (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a1FdDf72AQ), a pop quiz by Max :smallamused:
The "popular-cool" Clique thing goes away after highschool, but the desire to fit in does not change. Even if we are not dressing so that the popular kids will let us sit at their table, we still pick up ideas of what is "Cool" from those around us, otherwise Fashion wouldn't exist at all.

Also, Clothing can serve as "Identity Shorthand". If you see somebody wearing a Minecraft Tee-Shirt that means they identify as geeky, people who are into sports wear athletic clothes as casual wear, people who are into music wear band shirts. All these send signs about the person.

The Hipster look is a product of the identity, not the other way around. Hipsters shop in thrift stores and dress in deliberatly "Uncool" fashions in order to show that they do not care about fitting into any corporate chain's idea of "Cool". Like geeks, athletes, metalheads, or countless other groups before them, the hipsters adopt a distinctive clothing style to show this.

And the cycle is complete. Its Cool to not be influenced by "Popular Fashion". You show you are not influenced by fashion by dressing a certain way. This creates a new Fashion.

Really, Hipsters are no more swayed by "Popular Fashion" than most people, they're just louder about it. Jocks wear gym shorts and jerseys as casual everyday wear, not because the corporate fashion machine told them to, but because those clothes are comfortable, demonstrate their interests, and depending on the weather can be perfectly practical to just wear all day even if you don't intend to play basketball or soccer or whatever later. Geeks or Artists dress as they do for similar reasons that have nothing to do with any idea of what is "Cool". However, part of the Hipster look is actively declaring that you are not swayed by the whims of fashion.

Its like if there was an ad for Pepsi right next to a vending machine, and lots of people went to the machine and just bought whatever they wanted, regardless of if it was Pepsi. The Hipster is the guy who specifically declares he is not drinking Pepsi in order to demonstrate that the ad does not affect him.

[Jaycemonde]

Geeks or Artists dress as they do for similar reasons that have nothing to do with any idea of what is "Cool".

Speak for yourself, but I look for eye-catching and aesthetically pleasing designs regardless of whether they're speaking to my geek side or my artist side (or both, as is usually the case). I think they look cool. Maybe even Cool with a capital C, depending on the article in question (usually things like a Blacklight: Retribution shirt, a Black Mesa hoodie, a Dog Husband, Living Toilet shirt, etc.). The concepts they're portraying might not be cool to most people (either because of obscurity or meaning) but a Cool Design is still a Cool Design, and people who know nothing of cyberpunk mercenaries, geeky scientists in hazmat suits or masochistic bats have still complimented me on my choices in the past.


Its like if there was an ad for Pepsi right next to a vending machine, and lots of people went to the machine and just bought whatever they wanted, regardless of if it was Pepsi. The Hipster is the guy who specifically declares he is not drinking Pepsi in order to demonstrate that the ad does not affect him.

Although this is pretty accurate. Sometimes I'll buy whatever Big Corporate Product is being advertised, regardless of how much I like it or not, just because it irritates the "You're All Sheeple" crowd.

[BRC]

Speak for yourself, but I look for eye-catching and aesthetically pleasing designs regardless of whether they're speaking to my geek side or my artist side (or both, as is usually the case). I think they look cool. Maybe even Cool with a capital C, depending on the article in question (usually things like a Blacklight: Retribution shirt, a Black Mesa hoodie, a Dog Husband, Living Toilet shirt, etc.). The concepts they're portraying might not be cool to most people (either because of obscurity or meaning) but a Cool Design is still a Cool Design, and people who know nothing of cyberpunk mercenaries, geeky scientists in hazmat suits or masochistic bats have still complimented me on my choices in the past.

"Cool" was the wrong word, "Fashionable" was what I meant. "Cool" is a personal opinion of something, "Fashionable" refers to compliance with some (potentially very transient) cultural idea.

A Black Mesa hoodie can be "Cool" for somebody who likes half-life, likes wearing hoodies, or just likes the look of the logo.

Some people may think it's cool to be fashionable. some people don't care. Hipsters think it is cool to be explicitly unfashionable.

To go back to the vending machine. Pepsi=Fashionable. People buy whatever they think is cool.

[Jaycemonde]

Fair enough.

[TheThan]

Its like if there was an ad for Pepsi right next to a vending machine, and lots of people went to the machine and just bought whatever they wanted, regardless of if it was Pepsi. The Hipster is the guy who specifically declares he is not drinking Pepsi in order to demonstrate that the ad does not affect him.

The irony in this situation is that ad is affecting the hipster; he’s choosing not to buy Pepsi because he sees an ad for it. If that ad was not there, that hipster would buy whatever brand he wanted to drink (including Pepsi), without raising a fuss and drawing attention to himself.

[Irenaeus]

But really its just a judgemental elitist insult. Some people want to feel better than other people, so they adopt a meme that there are these people called hipsters that you can laugh at.

Its also a lot easier to laugh at things you don't understand than try to learn about them, so assuming that anyone who likes a band you've never heard of is just doing so to be contrary and elitist is a readily available source of self esteem for people who are worried that liking what other people like makes them stupid.

When you're insecure, you want to project your own insecurity onto other people. When you feel smarter than other people but aren't 100% sure of your actual superiority, you want to convince yourself that other people who think they're smarter than you are actually inferior to you.

What a Hipster actually is is nebulous and inexact because the critique also tends to be focused around nebulous things like 'emptiness', 'authenticity' and 'objective artistic merit'. When the values we use to gage our social credibility are so utterly meaningless, or insults towards those we feel have no social credibility will naturally be equally meaningless.
This is a really good post, and I agree wholeheartedly.

The definition of hipsters focusing on the aspect of just embracing narrow interests away from the mainstream, and then discarding them if they become popular, is a wholly polemical one. It's not an ethos, and nobody self-identifies with it. Considering hipsterism as a subculture focusing on a particular style, as well as being connected with a certain brand of music and an appreciation for the perceived excellence of certain products is more valid. If we focus on the latter part, I've met about as many good-natured and geniunely nice hipsters as I've met people you could call jocks or geeks or whatever, and for every irritating elitist who is deathly afraid of doing anything genuine, I've met a misanthropic and socially oblivious nerd.

By all means, groups of people have large differences to them, and aren't all equal, but a lot of the negativity given to hipsters from geeks and nerds seems petty and unsympathetic to me.

[Irenaeus]

Speak for yourself, but I look for eye-catching and aesthetically pleasing designs regardless of whether they're speaking to my geek side or my artist side (or both, as is usually the case). I think they look cool. Maybe even Cool with a capital C, depending on the article in question (usually things like a Blacklight: Retribution shirt, a Black Mesa hoodie, a Dog Husband, Living Toilet shirt, etc.). The concepts they're portraying might not be cool to most people (either because of obscurity or meaning) but a Cool Design is still a Cool Design, and people who know nothing of cyberpunk mercenaries, geeky scientists in hazmat suits or masochistic bats have still complimented me on my choices in the past.I assume that people regularly don't accuse you of being a hipster because of the references on your clothing to stuff people probably never heard of?

I've heard very similar stuff from people labled as hipsters. And I liked (and identified with) their explanation as well as yours.

[Kajhera]

The only person I know who lived in Portland, Oregon, shops in thrift stores for strange fashions (did you know they also have those for like... discarded electronic parts, so you could piece together interesting devices and so forth?), and likes indie rock ... is also an incredibly authentic, amazing, adventurous person with a calling to help people that leaves me in awe at the kind of horrors she's willing to confront in the course of it, as well as very real joy and talent in artistic expression and drive to seek new experiences.

So you can imagine this whole stereotype/contemptuously viewed subculture confuses and unnerve me.

[pendell]

Out of interest, GTA 5 defines Trevor as a hipster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ot_Um1sGE). In NSFW language, so be warned.

Since I like unusual and different as opposed to mainstream, I guess I could be defined as a hipster. But I don't get sticking labels on people. Is 'hipster' a label other people give to people they don't like? Then it's just another way of saying "I'm better than you and this is why." Is it a label people claim for themselves? Then it's a bit more okay. But I still don't see it as a specially useful label.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Scarlet Knight]

For fans of Rusty & Co.

http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-6-12/

[Jaycemonde]

I assume that people regularly don't accuse you of being a hipster because of the references on your clothing to stuff people probably never heard of?

I've heard very similar stuff from people labled as hipsters. And I liked (and identified with) their explanation as well as yours.

The main difference is that hipsters [tend to] do it in an elitist way. If I say someone hasn't heard of something, it's based on experience and somewhat low expectations (not in a "these guys are all plebs way", more of a "god damn it yet another event where i won't be able to relate to a single person" way) Honestly, I think the single most commonly known (although not socially acceptable) item in my wardrobe is a Bad Dragon keychain. Every now and then, somebody will recognize Jackal Queenston or NegaRen on my shirt and I'll squee quite audibly, and I once even received a job offer based solely on my wearing the aforementioned Black Mesa hoodie (ironic, as my friend clad in a Texans hat and basketball shorts is a hundred times better at computer repair).

I may occasionally say "You've probably never heard of it." among friends, but it's only in a joking way. Most of the time, my response to somebody not knowing what retromodern leftfield or footpunk (or Samurai Jack, or PAYDAY, or Aurastys) is: OH MY GOD HAVE YOU NEVER LIVED HOLY **** YOU GOTTA SEE THIS RAD SWAG **** GOD DAMN YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO THIS JUST LET ME SEND YOU THE ENTIRE ALBUM GOD DAMN HERE ALSO THIS IS THE TEN THOUSAND PIECES OF FAN ART FOR IT AND LISTEN TO MY TWENTY-FIVE THEORIES BEHIND THE MEANING OF EVERY SINGLE SONG AND WHAT MENTAL IMAGE THEY BRING TO MIND HEY DO YOU WANNA PLAY PLANETSIDE

[Cheesegear]

I can't define what a 'Hipster' is, but I know one when I see one.

[Isamu Dyson]

Someone that wears glasses and is somehow worthy of derision.

[Milo v3]

Out of interest, GTA 5 defines Trevor as a hipster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7ot_Um1sGE). In NSFW language, so be warned.
That was actually what started people calling me a hipster.


I may occasionally say "You've probably never heard of it." among friends, but it's only in a joking way.
I say "You've probably never heard of it." because it's faster than answering their question and having them say "I've never heard of it." :smallsigh:

[GoblinArchmage]

I say "You've probably never heard of it." because it's faster than answering their question and having them say "I've never heard of it." :smallsigh:

I'll be honest. I would find it annoying if somebody said that to me. There is a subtle suggestion of elitism in that statement, as if the person you are talking to is not worthy of being familiar with the music you like.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I can't define what a 'Hipster' is, but I know one when I see one.

I would tell you what one is, but you wouldn't understand it.

[Coidzor]

Anyone who lives in a post-industrial nation, basically.

[Jaycemonde]

Anyone who lives in a post-industrial nation, basically.

I was living in a post-industrial nation before it was cool.

[Milo v3]

I'll be honest. I would find it annoying if somebody said that to me. There is a subtle suggestion of elitism in that statement, as if the person you are talking to is not worthy of being familiar with the music you like.

I don't say it to try and sound better than other people, I just can't be bothered hoping that the other teenagers from the school I went to have heard of the bands anymore.

... Though based on the fact I don't say "You've probably never heard of it" to the girl I like, so I admit there might be slight judgement thing going on. Only slight though, since I say it to literally everyone else including close friends.

Another reason I don't see it as that elitist is that I don't listen to bascially any music that my friends like and if they said "You've probably never heard of it" to me, their is a 99% chance that they'd be right.

[Coidzor]

I don't say it to try and sound better than other people, I just can't be bothered hoping that the other teenagers from the school I went to have heard of the bands anymore.

... Though based on the fact I don't say "You've probably never heard of it" to the girl I like, so I admit there might be slight judgement thing going on. Only slight though, since I say it to literally everyone else including close friends.

Another reason I don't see it as that elitist is that I don't listen to bascially any music that my friends like and if they said "You've probably never heard of it" to me, their is a 99% chance that they'd be right.

It's a dismissive gesture. If it weren't intended to be dismissive it'd use some form of qualification like "small" or "indy/indie" or "obscure" or "niche."

[Jaycemonde]

It's a dismissive gesture. If it weren't intended to be dismissive it'd use some form of qualification like "small" or "indy/indie" or "obscure" or "niche."

Not necessarily. As I've mentioned before, I've pretty much given up on anybody knowing what the hell the stuff is that I like, with the exception of the hardcore gamers/huge pervs/serious music aficionados. It's just too obscure. Saying "You've probably never heard of it" or something along those lines just takes up less time and oxygen.

[Milo v3]

It's a dismissive gesture. If it weren't intended to be dismissive it'd use some form of qualification like "small" or "indy/indie" or "obscure" or "niche."
I thought the thing being in one of those categories would be implied based on the wording. :smallconfused:


Not necessarily. As I've mentioned before, I've pretty much given up on anybody knowing what the hell the stuff is that I like, with the exception of the hardcore gamers/huge pervs/serious music aficionados. It's just too obscure. Saying "You've probably never heard of it" or something along those lines just takes up less time and oxygen.
Well, mine isn't as severe as that, but at least somone gets it. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

I thought the thing being in one of those categories would be implied based on the wording. :smallconfused:

So why take more time and be dismissive in saying it and run the risk of causing offense?


Not necessarily. As I've mentioned before, I've pretty much given up on anybody knowing what the hell the stuff is that I like, with the exception of the hardcore gamers/huge pervs/serious music aficionados. It's just too obscure. Saying "You've probably never heard of it" or something along those lines just takes up less time and oxygen.

No, no it doesn't, for example "an obscure band" vs. "you've probably never heard of it."

It takes up more space/air/time and it has a negative cultural connotation.

[Milo v3]

So why take more time and be dismissive in saying it and run the risk of causing offense?



No, no it doesn't, for example "an obscure band" vs. "you've probably never heard of it."

It takes up more space/air/time and it has a negative cultural connotation.

How does:
"What bands do you like?"
"They're abit obscure."
"Like what?"
"Murder By Death and Decemberists."
"Never heard of those."

Take less time than:
"What bands do you like?"
"You've probably never heard of them."
"Ok."

I've tried both methods multiple times, second one is much faster and reaches the same conclusion.

Thing is, Decemberists and Murder by Death aren't even That Obscure but the fact that basically no one knows them at my old school has made talking about them is relatively pointless. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Thing is, Decemberists and Murder by Death aren't even That Obscure but the fact that basically no one knows them at my old school has made talking about them is relatively pointless. :smallsigh:

Good thing you're not going there anymore then.


How does:
"What bands do you like?"
"They're abit obscure."
"Like what?"
"Murder By Death and Decemberists."
"Never heard of those."

Take less time than:
"What bands do you like?"
"You've probably never heard of them."
"Ok."

Well, sure, if you're being disingenuous or you're talking with someone so uninterested that they'd let it drop with an "Ok" or "Hipster" instead of something worse or further probing.

Rather raises the question why one would regularly be in situations where one was discussing musical preferences with people who have no interest in the answer whatsoever... :smallconfused:

[Jaycemonde]

Thing is, Decemberists and Murder by Death aren't even That Obscure but the fact that basically no one knows them at my old school has made talking about them is relatively pointless. :smallsigh:

I still count it as an unforgivable sin that nobody at my first public high school knew what Bush was (the band, not the President). I mean, not knowing who RQ or The Quick Brown Fox are, I can understand. But Bush? They pretty much defined nineties grunge!

[Aedilred]

I've tried both methods multiple times, second one is much faster and reaches the same conclusion.
It's faster, but social interaction isn't about speed. The former is more respectful and at least provides your conversational partner with information, should they wish to continue talking... or even the opportunity to go and listen to this music for themselves. By contrast, the second is dismissive and shuts down the dialogue. Apart from anything else, how will you ever meet anyone who shares your interests if you don't tell anyone what they are on the basis they won't have heard of them?

Even better would be to ask them if they've heard of <obscure band> especially if you can do so in a way that sounds faintly apologetic for your tastes running to such a niche interest that it's difficult to talk about. That also makes them feel like you're taking an interest and listening to them.

[Milo v3]

Good thing you're not going there anymore then.
Only graduated three weeks ago, so it hasn't exactly been that much of a change since going there.


Well, sure, if you're being disingenuous or you're talking with someone so uninterested that they'd let it drop with an "Ok" or "Hipster" instead of something worse or further probing.

Rather raises the question why one would regularly be in situations where one was discussing musical preferences with people who have no interest in the answer whatsoever... :smallconfused:
High School. Pointless small talk is common there and music is one that comes up a fair amount. Because it's purpose is only to communicate with people who don't really count as friends, letting it drop doesn't have a fairly large impact.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Puppets make everything better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbTI7eWaQbk

[McStabbington]

Well, most people have gotten at what a hipster is supposed to be, namely someone who finds value in something's deviation from the "cool" or "mainstream" rather than any intrinsic worth to the thing itself, but it's also important to note that hipster as a concept is a marginally useful stereotype.

There are a few people I've met who fit the stereotype, like that couple in the Vegas bar with whom I had a rather passionate argument with over whether James Cameron deserved to be called one of my favorite directors, but most people have at worst a passing phase where they like things for their "uncoolness" before moving on to appreciate things unironically for their intrinsic value, regardless of whether or not anyone else likes it.

[Coidzor]

Puppets make everything better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbTI7eWaQbk

Yes. Yes they do.


There are a few people I've met who fit the stereotype, like that couple in the Vegas bar with whom I had a rather passionate argument with over whether James Cameron deserved to be called one of my favorite directors

People who say such silly things deserve to be laughed at, not argued with. :smallconfused:

[McStabbington]

People who say such silly things deserve to be laughed at, not argued with. :smallconfused:

Well, it was really about reinforcing their ironic sensibility, and that was something worth arguing about. Cameron and Spielberg are two of the most, for lack of a better term, humanistic directors we've got. By humanistic, I mean that their focus is on establishing a personal relationship between the viewer and the character on the screen, and using our sense of empathy to create a rooting interest in what happens with the character. You can be a great director without using that style (Kubrick was a great film technician, but he famously wasn't greatly concerned about creating characters that we could empathize with, and many of his shots and cuts are all about establishing and maintaining distance), but Cameron is very much in the humanistic school, and he's fantastic at it. All of his early films work because they're very tightly focused on the humans at the center of them.

But that doesn't work for hipsters, because they're cynicism works in the same way Kubrick's shots and cuts do: they create, by design, distance between the hipster and everyone else. They had to argue the point because it's central to their identity that they reject earnest, eager sincerity. Whereas me? Heck, I just love slam-bang action films and heroes I can have a rooting interest in. So while I have no problem citing Kubrick as a film-making genius, I also know, through painful experience, that his films just don't work for me.

Really, I think they only bothered to argue because I made it so painfully hard to prove that I had a lesser understanding of film than they did. The exact question they asked was who did I think were the five best directors ever. The question I answered, quite explicitly, was which ones were my favorite, specifically because there are lots of good directors doing lots of good things that I can't give their full due simply because I really like humanistic, character-based storytelling. Then I picked Spielberg and Cameron, in addition to Hitchcock, Kurosawa and Eastwood, with honorable mentions to John Ford and Brad Bird. Which are not names that rubes give when they're listing their favorite cinematic creations. Rubes say "Who is Fellini?", not "Oh yeah, I've seen 'La Dolce Vita', but I really couldn't bring myself to appreciate it because the story has become too hackneyed for me to appreciate the value it had when it was fresh."

[Aedilred]

Rubes say "Who is Fellini?", not "Oh yeah, I've seen 'La Dolce Vita', but I really couldn't bring myself to appreciate it because the story has become too hackneyed for me to appreciate the value it had when it was fresh."
So what you're saying is that the film is too mainstream for you to appreciate, and had it been possible, you would have liked it before it was cool? :smallwink:
(But seriously, that's a good, and legitimate, answer; I'm just making fun)

[Jaycemonde]

So what you're saying is that the film is too mainstream for you to appreciate, and had it been possible, you would have liked it before it was cool? :smallwink:

That's more commonly known as "The fandom ruined it for me." It's why I can't appreciate otherwise-clever shows like Adventure Time or Night Vale.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

That's more commonly known as "The fandom ruined it for me." It's why I can't appreciate otherwise-clever shows like Adventure Time or Night Vale.

Doctor Who and Fringe, for me.

I hate Big Bang Theory on its own (de)merits.

[Jaycemonde]

Doctor Who and Fringe, for me.

I hate Big Bang Theory on its own (de)merits.

Ohhh god, Doctor Who is a big one. I personally really loved Fringe, but Doctor Who...wow. I was actually a bit relieved when a lot of the Whovians switched to Night Vale when it started up.

Ironically, in the case of Big Bang Theory, I actually like the fan base (or, at least, the ones churning out brain-dead memes) quite a bit, but I can agree with you about the show being unlikable in lots of ways.

[Milo v3]

That's more commonly known as "The fandom ruined it for me." It's why I can't appreciate otherwise-clever shows like Adventure Time or Night Vale.

I got "Fandom ruined it for me" as a sorta reason I why I dislike My Little Pony, despite never seeing it. Everyone aparently likes it and them constantly talking about it has rendered it too annoying for me to ever like it.

In hindsight now that I post this, Disliking something because so many people like it sounds like a very hipster thing for me to have done. :smalltongue:

[McStabbington]

So what you're saying is that the film is too mainstream for you to appreciate, and had it been possible, you would have liked it before it was cool? :smallwink:
(But seriously, that's a good, and legitimate, answer; I'm just making fun)

Well played, Aedilred, well played.:smallbiggrin:

[Dienekes]

I have had one experience with what I would consider a hipster that defines my understanding of what they as a group are.

I was at some social gathering that I get dragged to by my friends every once in awhile where I see this guy. Now admittedly, I took a dislike to him, but that's rather normal for me. I don't particularly like a lot of people, and I always find something disturbing about people who look like they spend more money on clothes than I do on my house. Their priorities seem far too messed up for me to really understand them as a person.

But anyway, I somehow got into a conversation with this guy and we realized we both hated the music that was playing. And so I, in an attempt to at least try to be social, asked him what music he liked. He sort of held his nose up and listed off a couple of bands and then said that they're pretty out there and that he doubted I knew of them.

Well I did, actually one of the bands I quite liked. And I mentioned that to him, and that I wasn't so much a fan of their first album but their second was more my speed. He seemed amicable enough at this and so we chatted a bit about the band before he asked how long I knew the band. I responded only in the last year because I heard one of the songs on a show I liked which introduced me to it.

Suddenly it was as if a switch turned off on the guy and he started complaining that the band was becoming too popular if it was on that show, and how I wasn't a real tried and true fan because of how new I was and that he wished the song was never on the show. I tried to explain that this stance is completely idiotic as more publicity for the band means they'll make more money which means they can make more music. Also if enough people like the band hopefully it will influence current music trends so the crap on the radio currently will finally be replaced. But he didn't agree with me, saying that I just didn't understand because I wasn't there from the beginning and implied my clothing indicated that I wouldn't get it. I don't know how cloths effects my ability to understand basic economics and music, but I can't hold this against him too much because I did also make a snap judgment about him based on his attire.

So to me, that guys the template I judge hipsters on. Someone who does have an interest in subjects, but seems to reject them if they gain popularity or those who like the same things as him because of the way they were introduced to the subject in question does not fit his anti-popular rationale. If you just like something that's not popular, that's fine. It's the superiority they have of being underground to the point of ridiculousness.

[Crow]

The real question is "What was a hipster before it was cool?"

[Lord Raziere]

The real question is "What was a hipster before it was cool?"

sarcastic relaxed Jazz musicians in the 1940's?

which means I'm going to go find more jazz music, and be a retro-hipster who will be what a hipster was before it was cool. get back to the roots :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

I'm Portland OR born and raised, and let me tell you something about hipsters.

Hipster is a term which is used to denote someone who privileges certain qualities, specifically being a part of the underground music scene and a kind of inverted consumerism. The underground music scene is where a lot of the jokes come from, where being part of the indie rock crowd at a level where bands are still local is important to identity. The consumerism is a second part, hipster is applied to mean someone who wears alternative clothing which is fashionable enough to become trendy. IE they wear outfits like a trendy person, but they are inspired by local groups rather than fashion magazines/international styles. Martin from Questionable Content is a former hipster, used to be indie crowd.

All of this is rather meaningless now, because the term is so widely applied that everyone is a hipster. About a decade ago is when that crowd was actually distinguishable from other groups here, now being a hipster is so popular that they don't really stand out.

Sourcing: My older sister is a hipster who matched every stereotype of the term, and was extremely offended when the hipster jokes started.