Demonologist: Summon Monster >IX

[Xuldarinar]

Looking over the book of vile darkness, one ability of the demonologist has caught my attention.




Summoning Mastery (Su): When a demonologist of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of two levels higher for purposes of summoning chaotic evil creatures. For example, a demonologist refers to the summon monster IV list for chaotic evil outsiders when casting summon monster II. At 6th level, the demonologist refers to the summoning list three levels higher than the one for the summon monster spell he is casting. At 9th level, the demonologist refers to the list
four levels higher.


Now, normally, this is fairly clear. My question… well it might be easier if I show you.

Summon Monster|Summoning Mastery (+2)|Summoning Mastery (+3)|Summoning Mastery (+4)
Summon Monster I|Summon Monster III|Summon Monster IV|Summon Monster V
Summon Monster II|Summon Monster IV|Summon Monster V|Summon Monster VI
Summon Monster III|Summon Monster V|Summon Monster VI|Summon Monster VII
Summon Monster IV|Summon Monster VI|Summon Monster VII|Summon Monster VIII
Summon Monster V|Summon Monster VII|Summon Monster VIII|Summon Monster IX
Summon Monster VI|Summon Monster VIII|Summon Monster IX|Summon Monster X(?)
Summon Monster VII|Summon Monster IX|Summon Monster X(?)|Summon Monster XI(?)
Summon Monster VIII|Summon Monster X(?)|Summon Monster XI(?)|Summon Monster XII(?)
Summon Monster IX|Summon Monster XI(?)|Summon Monster XII(?)|Summon Monster XIII(?)

Do we, in cases greater than XI, only refer back to lower levels of Summon Monster, or could there be higher summon monster lists?


Hypothetically, such spells would look as follows:

Summon Monster X
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
Level: Clr 10, Sor/Wis 10

This spell functions like summon monster I, except you can summon one creature from the 10th level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 9th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list.

Summon Monster XI
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
Level: Clr 11, Sor/Wis 11

This spell functions like summon monster I, except you can summon one creature from the 11th level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 10th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list.

Summon Monster XII
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
Level: Clr 12, Sor/Wis 12

This spell functions like summon monster I, except you can summon one creature from the 12th level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 11th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list.

Summon Monster XIII
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text for summon monster I]
Level: Clr 13, Sor/Wis 13

This spell functions like summon monster I, except you can summon one creature from the 13th level list, 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 12th level list, or 1d4+1 creatures of the same kind from a lower-level list.


Now, granted you aren't likely going to ever have to consider Summon Monster XIII unless you include epic builds (If there is a pre-epic build that would manage that, I'd love to see it)

[Crake]

When you consider that the PrC itself doesn't advance spellcasting, but rather grants extra spellcasting, the best you could hope for is Summon Monster "11" if you only take 3 levels of the prc, and 17 levels in wizard, giving summon monster 9+2. And I'm guessing in this case, you would simply summon 1d4+1 of the 9th level list.

There'd also be argument on the DM's side to simply not have any spells higher than summon monster 9 work, simply because no such spells exist.

[Thanatosia]

RAW, there is nothing to stop a Demonologist from using his Summoning Mastery from using a full caster progression spell list, but RAI, the Demonlogist has it's own spell progression and only goes up to lv4 spells, and the Summoning Mastery is just there to let him Summon Demons from the VIII list.

This is a real hard feature to exploit however, since advancing into Demonologist as a Prestige Class will not get you the SUmmoning Mastery Power, So you can't just Thuerge your way through it while still getting access to Summon Monster V-IX on your cleric progression for example.

But if you did for some reason build a Summoner 14/Demonologist 10 for example, I don't think you'd get to custom craft a Summon List for Summon Monster X+, and it would be DM Fiat if you could even use the Multiple Summon Progression to continue (ie, Equivilent to summon Monster X letting you summon 1d3 monsters from the IX List).

[Lady Serpentine]

Theoretically, one could also go for having greater control over the results of the summoning spell; for instance, assigning stat points differently on, say, a Ghaele Azata.

Probably best not to have that as a replacement for higher level lists, though; there's only so much tweaking one can do, and still have it be reasonable.

What do you think the higher level lists would look like? Would, say, a Crucidaemon be X?

Edit:

As a note, this is assuming that the GM wants to allow this sort of thing, and make homebrew rules for it; since personally I tend to go for high-magic games and prefer to allow the PCs to do things if at all possible, it's what I'd go for, so that's the line of thought that's most relevant to my interests.

Edit II: Note also that one should replace the PF creatures as needed with something equivalent; I just happened to have that up already, besides having been looking into Outsiders for a Sorcerer anyway, and they're pretty cross-compatible, so I figured I'd just go with those.

[Xuldarinar]

Simply for the purpose of the highest possible, I believe you could manage: Conjurer 5/Demonologist 6/Ur-priest 9. In that case, Highest Summon Monster for Outsider (Chaotic, Evil): Summon Monster XII

As for RaI, that as a reasonable interpretation, though all things considered It wouldn't hurt to go simply on RaW.

I do appreciate the input thus far, each interpretation thus far i've considered. As with most things the rules don't directly address, it mostly comes down to the DM, but it is good to see what others have to say on the matter.

[eggynack]

As for RaI, that as a reasonable interpretation, though all things considered It wouldn't hurt to go simply on RaW.
If you're going by RAW, I don't think it's anywhere close to possible that this will work. There's just no spell there. As far as I'm concerned, your best case scenario is getting more monsters from the lower lists, but even that wouldn't be RAW, because no spell exists that tells you to do that.

[Xuldarinar]

If you're going by RAW, I don't think it's anywhere close to possible that this will work. There's just no spell there. As far as I'm concerned, your best case scenario is getting more monsters from the lower lists, but even that wouldn't be RAW, because no spell exists that tells you to do that.

Granted. Strictly raw, I suppose the advantage is being able to cast Summon Monster with lower spell slots. Given some flexibility, the prestige class can provide greater benefit.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think the best build with this involves the following.

Wizard 5 / Demonologist 6 / ur-priest 9

That gets you SM 9 from ur-priest and +3 levels of summon monster spells.

Another entry, but harder to get the prereqs, would be

Bard 5 / Demonologist 6 / sublime chord 9

Again, 9th level spells and +3 to SM with chaotic evil outsiders

I would also love to do a PRC friendly gestalt and find a way to count as evil for prereqs to one could do the following...

Wizard 10 / Malconvoker 10 // X 5 (factotum maybe) / Demonologist 10 / Nar deamonbinder 5

[Xuldarinar]

I think the best build with this involves the following.

Wizard 5 / Demonologist 6 / ur-priest 9

That gets you SM 9 from ur-priest and +3 levels of summon monster spells.

Another entry, but harder to get the prereqs, would be

Bard 5 / Demonologist 6 / sublime chord 9

Again, 9th level spells and +3 to SM with chaotic evil outsiders

I would also love to do a PRC friendly gestalt and find a way to count as evil for prereqs to one could do the following...

Wizard 10 / Malconvoker 10 // X 5 (factotum maybe) / Demonologist 10 / Nar deamonbinder 5

Those are some interesting builds, though i will note the last one isn't rule legal. Aside from potential alignment conflicts, you cannot gain a level in two prestige classes on the same level under gestalt. Otherwise, that would make for an interesting character.

[Fouredged Sword]

True. I think in retrospect, this may be better.

Wizard 5 / malconvoker 8 / Wizard 7 // Sucubus HD 6 / Sucubus LA 6 / Marshal 2 / Demonologist 6.

TN alignment, counting also as CE due to outsider subtypes Chaos and Evil

You get 9th level spells and improved summons, + 3 levels to your evil summons.

Your marshal auras boost your charisma checks pre battle and make the binding and bluff checks easier.

[Xuldarinar]

True. I think in retrospect, this may be better.

Wizard 5 / malconvoker 8 / Wizard 7 // Sucubus HD 6 / Sucubus LA 6 / Marshal 2 / Demonologist 6.

TN alignment, counting also as CE due to outsider subtypes Chaos and Evil

You get 9th level spells and improved summons, + 3 levels to your evil summons.

Your marshal auras boost your charisma checks pre battle and make the binding and bluff checks easier.

That actually does look pretty good.

[Fouredged Sword]

Did math wrong. It is better as

Sorcerer 6 / Malconvoker 8 / Sorcerer 6 // Sucubus 6 / LA 6 / Marshal 2 / Demonologist 6

Cha is everything after all.