[3.5] Balancing Hit Points at 7th Level

[GreatDane]

Hello, Playground. This is the first campaign I've been DM for, and the second I've ever played in. The party has just reached level 7, and I'm finding that CR 7, while challenging in their abilities and damage output, are somewhat lacking in the defenses department. Especially HP.

The Aboleth, for example, is a CR 7 monster, and a respectable one at that - enslave, 4 tentacles on a full attack, and some useful illusions for taking down PCs. However, it has an AC of 16, and 78 hit points.

The party currently averages around 14 points of damage per round per PC - the rogue sneak attacks, the wizard fireballs, the fighter slashes, the cleric summons a celestial tiger to get a full attack off, etc. 78/14 = 5.57, meaning the PCs will get 5-6 turns before this thing goes down. That's one turn for each of them, plus one more turn for half the party.

In a combat with an aboleth, then, the party will average less than two turns each before the bad guy goes down and they raid his double standard treasure. There is also the issue of the aboleth getting only one attack during the combat. (Although he'll probably dish out 40+ damage, the single round of hurt before he just keels over isn't exactly thrilling.)

Another solid example is the drider - a fairly classic CR 7 dungeon-crawling monster. With only 45 HP, though, once the PCs wade through its crowd-control spells, it goes down in about 3 rounds (45/14 = 3.21), meaning one PC may not even get to hit it.

So, my question: are 3.5 encounters at this level meant to be about getting to a monster rather than a back-and-forth of damage? I know that as DM, I can just add hit points or throw higher-CR monsters at the party, but I want to know if there's balancing factor I'm not spotting somewhere in the system.

Please bear in mind that my PCs are at a virtually nonexistent level of optimization.

[Flickerdart]

Aboleths are masterminds. Driders are spellcasters. Neither is meant to last long when slugging it out in melee unless it's put the PCs at a significant disadvantage using its magic. Consider a Juvenile Black Dragon (110 HP), Elephant (104 HP), Chuul (93 HP), Phasm (97 HP), Dire Bear (105 HP), Bulette (94 HP), or an Elasmosaur (111 HP) instead, all of which are CR7.

In addition, consider that equal-CR opponents are NOT supposed to present a meaningful threat, and only deplete daily resources by around 20%.

[Devronq]

Well that's great they aren't optimized because alot of games at every level the PC one shot anything. I suggest miss chance, instead of increasing AC give enemies blur or displacement dor some sort of miss chance like that.

[Phelix-Mu]

I regularly tweak monsters hp up to 90%. I also give the players the 90% hp, but it makes more difference for the monsters, who only show up for one scene and usually only curbstomp the players by luck (making pc hp rather irrelevant...bad luck can kill most anything, hp notwithstanding), or by having abilities that the players can't counter. Standard hp just is too fast; lethality outstrips endurance very early on, and I want slightly larger, slightly longer battles.

Another trick is to give the monster the elite array (or better), though this should also increase the CR by 1 (according to the books, who have a very suspect method to calculating CRs). Making Constitution higher can be a big boost to hp for creatures with many HD. Similarly, intelligent enemies should have access to a form of healing, ideally something that doesn't require much of an action to use (contingent healing of some kind, Craft Contingent Spell abuse isn't just for players:smallwink:).

Finally, miss chance really is one of the best methods for stretching out combat. If the players can't counter it, they often just have to slug it out, which can take a really long time at low-to-mid levels. Beware, though, that this often only works a few times, as players will quickly seek counters to many of the most commonly available forms of miss chance. Luckily, the best counters are quite expensive (moreso than the things that provide miss chance).

[Psyren]

So, my question: are 3.5 encounters at this level meant to be about getting to a monster rather than a back-and-forth of damage? I know that as DM, I can just add hit points or throw higher-CR monsters at the party, but I want to know if there's balancing factor I'm not spotting somewhere in the system.

What you're not spotting is action economy - the ability for PCs to focus-fire makes encounters much easier than their CR would indicate. Solo monsters are almost never a good idea simply because of how the game is designed - either the PCs will focus a monster and blow through it in no time, or the monster will be so tough that nothing can bring it down in time, and it proceeds to liquefy the PCs - especially if they've already burned through some of their resources before reaching it, e.g. a boss. There is middle ground but it's very hard to hit.

The solution is to make sure there are multiple targets for them to spread their damage around. This guide (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxiv?GMs-Guide-to-Creating-Challenging-Encounters) is written for Pathfinder but I consider it a must-read and very applicable to 3.5 as well.

[KillianHawkeye]

In addition, consider that equal-CR opponents are NOT supposed to present a meaningful threat, and only deplete daily resources by around 20%.

Yeah, at level 7, you're supposed to be able to fight like four Aboleths a day without really even breaking a sweat.

That being said, realize that different monsters are supposed to play differently. You don't send a spellcaster to tank against the party's Barbarian, after all.

[Draz74]

In addition, consider that equal-CR opponents are NOT supposed to present a meaningful threat, and only deplete daily resources by around 20%.

Well, that's true ... assuming there are 3+ PCs to gang up on them. If you're playing with a tiny party or have managed to split the party up, that's a whole different story.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Aboleths are masterminds. Driders are spellcasters. Neither is meant to last long when slugging it out in melee unless it's put the PCs at a significant disadvantage using its magic.


What you're not spotting is action economy - the ability for PCs to focus-fire makes encounters much easier than their CR would indicate.

Seconding both of these, and note that in the case of aboleths and other mind-control/minion-focused monsters they go together quite well. Aboleths have their Enslave ability to give them minions, and would most likely have some Skum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skum.htm) minions around as well since those are classic aboleth-created minion monsters. If it has enough Enslave uses left over after taking care of non-Skum minions, it should be using that against the PCs, as well as its at-will hypnotic pattern, to prevent them from acting against it.

If they get within melee range, its tentacles and mucus cloud should be able to take out a PC or two...assuming they do get to it, when its illusions will make it harder to reach. And even if they do, they didn't hit the aboleth, they hit its projected image.

So yes, an aboleth likely will go down to roughly 5 actions by the PCs, but its minions, illusions, and mind-control mean that those 5 actions might be spread over 5-6 or more rounds and not the 1-2 you'd expect if the PCs can just walk up and smack it.

[KillianHawkeye]

^ That's a good point. Don't forget to use all of the monster's special abilities.

[DarkSonic1337]

Also remember this.

Generally monsters will try to FLEE when up against what for them is really beyond an impossible encounter. If they have some reason that they can't flee, they still won't do obviously disadvantageous things like trying to stick around in melee.

Their goal is to survive against impossible odds. They'll burn EVERY resource to try to escape or try to take the PCs down if escape is not possible.

[GreatDane]

Wow. You guys really came through with some comprehensive responses. It looks like the main points I've been missing are monster roles and action economy.


The solution is to make sure there are multiple targets for them to spread their damage around. This guide (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxiv?GMs-Guide-to-Creating-Challenging-Encounters) is written for Pathfinder but I consider it a must-read and very applicable to 3.5 as well.

This is an incredibly useful, in-depth guide that is most definitely a must-read for 3.5 DMs. I'm currently designing the next dungeon for the party, and it is certain that the advice from this thread and that guide will be put into action. The group meets in four days; I'll check back with this thread after the session to relay how it goes.

[Spuddles]

Aboleths are masterminds. Driders are spellcasters. Neither is meant to last long when slugging it out in melee unless it's put the PCs at a significant disadvantage using its magic. Consider a Juvenile Black Dragon (110 HP), Elephant (104 HP), Chuul (93 HP), Phasm (97 HP), Dire Bear (105 HP), Bulette (94 HP), or an Elasmosaur (111 HP) instead, all of which are CR7.

In addition, consider that equal-CR opponents are NOT supposed to present a meaningful threat, and only deplete daily resources by around 20%.

Thread over.

[Gnaeus]

My group is optimized enough that we just bump all monsters to max HP. May not work for your group, but it seems about right for ours.

[Flickerdart]

My group is optimized enough that we just bump all monsters to max HP. May not work for your group, but it seems about right for ours.
The problem with this is it can turn some fights that are a foregone conclusion into slog-fests, when enemies have appropriate HP but their offense and defense hasn't been adjusted to match. At least half the time it'll probably work better to just use different enemies...assuming, of course, that your PCs didn't just dump all their resources into attacking stuff, like mine seem to all the time.

[Equinox]

If your party gets in melee with an Aboleth before said Aboleth had the opportunity to massively mess around with their minds and run them through a host of false leads and dead ends while turning them against each other, you're doing it wrong.

[John Longarrow]

GreatDane

From my experience, the biggest tricks to making a fight a challenge are
1) Multiple targets. Spreads the parties actions around thus reducing quick kills.

2) Basic tactics and prep. Having ranged combatants shooting over a wall of planted towershield users (total cover) slows down how fast the party can drop targets.

3) Staggered fights. Often having several opponents that are not starting in the fight can lead to a much more enjoyable fight.

4) Terrain. If it hinders the party and helps the monster (read difficult terrain between PCs and monster that uses ranged attacks) the fights are more interesting.

5) Play to monsters strengths. Had a pixie that was a 3rd level warlock almost TPK a 7th level party by flying over trapped difficult terrain after using permanent illusion to make something the party wanted to get.

6) Plan from the monsters perspective. What does the monster want to accomplish? Are they looking to fight? Are they looking to talk? Something else? One encounter I had for a 7th level party was a medusa who was in full armor (including face covering helm that blocked her gaze). She issued a challenge (talked to party) before revealing herself. Party diplomacied its way past AND got the two members who got stoned restored by her.

If fighting isn't the ONLY option, a lot of fun challenges can happen.

[Story]

Another trick is to give the monster the elite array (or better), though this should also increase the CR by 1 (according to the books, who have a very suspect method to calculating CRs).

Ah, but if you give them a class level, they also get Elite Array free for only +.5 CR as well as an extra HD. And of course, you round down, so it's really no change in CR at all.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah, but if you give them a class level, they also get Elite Array free for only +.5 CR as well as an extra HD. And of course, you round down, so it's really no change in CR at all.

I often hand out class levels to my monsters, though in the autumn of my system mastery, I've also taken to handing out the Craft Contingent stuff...really, just about any buff can be justified somehow. As my typical gaming group got more advanced, I was forced to apply minor optimization to the run-of-the-mill monsters, redoing feats and such to make them more appropriate.

High-level games are like that though; so much is on the side of the PCs at that point that the DM really can pretty much dole out heaping helpings of the beatstick to the enemies, and the PCs will still probably survive and look good doing it.

[Gnaeus]

The problem with this is it can turn some fights that are a foregone conclusion into slog-fests, when enemies have appropriate HP but their offense and defense hasn't been adjusted to match. At least half the time it'll probably work better to just use different enemies...assuming, of course, that your PCs didn't just dump all their resources into attacking stuff, like mine seem to all the time.

If I push the enemies up any higher, I really risk TPK with a lucky/unlucky series of rolls. And it doesn't make it a slog fest, it just makes them use more than one player's action to kill any given enemy.

My last encounter, for example consisted of the party (2 level 7 optimized gestalt PCs, 2 level 6 unoptimized cohort types, and a couple of NPC warriors) fighting a group of undead breaking out of a dungeon. Fight starts with a CR 10 + some CR 5 mook support. I added 1 CR 8-10 enemy with max HP every round for 5 or 6 rounds (with another wave of mooks in the middle). They were able to consistently kill one opponent level CR+1-3 at max HP pretty much every round, at least there were never more than 2 on the map at a time. If I had used CR 10-12 enemies with normal HP, I'm pretty sure the PCs would all have died.

[macdaddy]

Assuming its a standard party of 4, instead of throwing ONE CR equivelent level monster at them, try something a little different.

With a SINGLE opponent, the party can easily gang up and take it out pretty quickly.

Try something like a CR-6 geared towards the fighter and 2 CR 4 opponents and maybe a CR 2-3 "lackey" who can play with the wizard/rogue/cleric.

Its an equivalent CR-7 challenge, but makes it harder for the party to focus on one single big bad. If I only field one monster, I tend to jack it up a little (CR+2), so the party has something to chew on.

Of course, sometimes CR ratings are not ALWAYS up to snuff. In 3.0 I had a party of 7 (Fighter, Sorcerer, Cleric, Bard/Wizard, Rogue, plus 2 others I don't recall) who were all level 8 or 9. So I threw them against a Barbed Devil, which was their CR+2.... short version is I had to bail them out with an NPC who miraculously showed up in time to quasi-teleport them away; otherwise it would have been a TPK. I did that because 2-3 rounds in it was obvious that they were completely over-matched and I had underestimated how crazy powerful a barbed devil was.

[GreatDane]

Kind of a revival, but I did promise to let the contributors know how the session went.

The answer? Beautifully. This dungeon has had more opponents per encounter and more things for everyone to be doing than almost anything I've run in the past. My thanks to everyone who helped!

If you'd like to see an outtake from what I came up with, check out this PDF (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9YkDa8dKkVwbkhERHdmVkZWb0k/edit?usp=sharing)!

EDIT: Google decided to bold all of the sans serif fonts, but it's still readable!