Party Differences Help?

[JBarca]

Señor Prancington (Esq.) and party (Caedian Campiagn), please venture no farther. This does not concern you. Seriously, you definitely don't want to read this.


In an RL campaign I'm currently running, I have run into a bit of a problem. The aforementioned Señor is a Half-Minotaur human DC Fighter/Barbarian/Warblade/etc that deals massive amounts of damage on charges. Other members of the party include a relatively unoptimized Bard (seems to be focused on Diplomacy and (very) light buffing), a very Divinations-focused... character (I'd rather not say what (it doesn't matter too much, to be honest), just in case my players are being nosy), and a Mineral Warrior Dwarf Crusader who pretty much tanks everything.

Now. I'm not worried about optimization level differences (even though the only even remotely optimized character is the Fighter). What does worry me is combat effectiveness.
The Crusader tanks, and is happy with just doing that. The party is in a long series of narrow tunnels, currently, so he just stands in front and Divine Surges/Revitalizing Strikes for some damage. The Minotaur stands behind and smashes everything. The Bard and Diviner are... nearly useless. They buff or do some mind-affecting abilities (save-or-dies mostly) on occasion, but that's it.

How do I challenge this party? If I throw difficult melee brutes at them, the Diviner SoDs them due to poor saves. If I make it immune to mind-affecting, she becomes useless in combat.

I don't really know how to challenge a Save-focused character without making the enemies immune... Either they'll fail and she wins, or they succeed and she dies. The melee brute... I've been using difficult terrain and will soon be using a bit of incorporeality to slow him down. The tank's most intriguing feature is his at-will burrowing. The bard's most difficult challenge is making her feel useful, I guess.

tldr; How might I go about challenging players who are each one-trick ponies, without making them all take turns feeling useless in combat? Is there a way to make a BBEG-style character who isn't overly weak to each style of combat, without being immune?
Thank you very much for whatever help you can offer. Sorry about how wordy that became.

[Flickerdart]

Multiple enemies that use their home turf to their advantage to strike and retreat are pretty much immune to SoDs and tanks and melee brutes - you can only SoD so many at one time, an attack can only kill one guy at a time, and you can't tank from every direction at once. However, they still get to do their thing and feel like they're accomplishing something...it's just that the thing they are doing won't actually get them meaningfully closer to a win condition.

[Red Fel]

Multiple enemies that use their home turf to their advantage to strike and retreat are pretty much immune to SoDs and tanks and melee brutes - you can only SoD so many at one time, an attack can only kill one guy at a time, and you can't tank from every direction at once. However, they still get to do their thing and feel like they're accomplishing something...it's just that the thing they are doing won't actually get them meaningfully closer to a win condition.

This. Pull out your Tucker's Kobolds on them. Striking from around corners, using traps and terrain, normal melee skills won't help. When everyone's powers are at reduced effectiveness, the squishies will feel less inferior.

Alternatively, flank the party. Not the individuals, mind you - the whole party. The problem with the Crusader tank is that he can only fully tank enemies within reach - he can't really stop snipers or people attacking the party from beyond his range. Similarly, the problem with the Barb remains his melee range. Engross him in one melee while another team flanks the party, and he'll be too busy to help them.

Example: Your party is traveling down a dark, narrow tunnel. Suddenly, they come across a handful of aggressive goblins. Crusader in the front gets to tanking, with Barb smashing things just behind him. Make a Listen check, as a goblin ambush team breaks from a concealed passage behind the party, to get at the squishies beyond their meaty friends. They're beyond the reach of the Crusader's tanking and the Barb's charging. I hope your squishies can save themselves.

[JBarca]

I'll definitely look into doing both of those.
Thank you for your help!

[ArcturusV]

There's other tricks as well. One that I like to do is just to have fights without direct solutions. Which honestly takes the "who is more optimized?" out of the equation compared to "Who can think on their feet faster?".

The comic touched on one of the classic ones. The shell game con. This is used a lot with Illusionist/mage bosses. They'll do something like have 8 or 10 different "clones" of them (Or illusions, whatever), running around in a battle, with the idea that worms into the head of players that one of them must be "Right". And they'll keep hammering away at these Clones/Copies/Illusions/Undead/Etc trying to find the "Right" one to hit to end the encounter. Never thinking, and never checking, for the invisible bad guy off in the corner orchestrating the battle from beyond the melee, reforming dispersed/defeated clones/illusions, shuffling them around constantly so people can't just "go down the line". And thus your battle is less about if the Half-Minotaur can hammer out X damage, or if the Crusader can "Tank" (Unlikely against 8-10 enemies who may not just mob him like he wants and go after others), or if the casters can hit some Save or Dies, but more about which player can figure out the "Trick" first, and start looking for it.

Other classic ones being something like the usual Succubus trap, where they think they rescued some girl, and she ends up getting one of them alone, letting them hit on her (Because there is almost always someone who will) and draining away a few levels before they know what's up.

I dunno. Just... I find as a player and a DM the "Best" fights are ones that can't be solved by a simple declaration of "I cast ____" or "I Charge Power Attack Shock Trooper the enemy". You don't necessarily have to nerf one of them or nope their abilities so much as just challenge their perceptions of what's really a threat and how to use those abilities.

[Menzath]

hmm for chargers a lot of lvl 1 spells are there weakness, Entangle(you cannot charge through difficult terrain), fog, and any other visibility killers work too.
Battle field control is great Vs. Melee, and while visibility control does hurt everyone else it allows encounters to be more difficult without the one-trick insta-winning the show, hopefully giving others a chance to shine.

[Pickford]

JBarca:

tldr; How might I go about challenging players who are each one-trick ponies, without making them all take turns feeling useless in combat? Is there a way to make a BBEG-style character who isn't overly weak to each style of combat, without being immune?
Thank you very much for whatever help you can offer. Sorry about how wordy that became.

Make it a legal procedural :D

The next city you come to immediately detains the half-minotaur (on the basis that he is a horrible monster thing). It's up to our other three heroes to prove his innocence. In other words: Give them a challenge that isn't about combat.

If you can't bring yourself to do that, mix up your threats (i.e. a caster to counterspell the diviner, along with brutes to trip up those melee)

[Psyren]

More monsters. That way even after the diviner locks one down and the charger one-shots another, there will still be a bunch of foes to worry about. Also, read this. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit)

[Incorrect]

The next city you come to immediately detains the half-minotaur (on the basis that he is a horrible monster thing). It's up to our other three heroes to prove his innocence. In other words: Give them a challenge that isn't about combat.

The "Horrible Monster" could be allowed to walk freely (though unarmed) and aid in his own defense, if they leave a hefty deposit with the city guard; to pay for any damages.
(just to include him in the challenge)


Try to make your encounters include several types of enemies. Its not just orcs. They have a leader, some slaves and some pets. Will the SoDs target the leader with the good saves, or the pets.. While the melee focused characters are battling the leader (and his bodyguards), someone else needs to fight the weaker slaves and pets so the party doesn't get overwhelmed.

Additionally I usually try to include some kind of usable environment in the big fights. Maybe the bard can topple a statue on to some of the enemies, or start flooding the room forcing them closer together. Some secondary objectives that needs something else than HP damage.
(BTW if anyone has input for this kind of usable environment, I'm running out of ideas)

[Pickford]

The "Horrible Monster" could be allowed to walk freely (though unarmed) and aid in his own defense, if they leave a hefty deposit with the city guard; to pay for any damages.
(just to include him in the challenge)


Try to make your encounters include several types of enemies. Its not just orcs. They have a leader, some slaves and some pets. Will the SoDs target the leader with the good saves, or the pets.. While the melee focused characters are battling the leader (and his bodyguards), someone else needs to fight the weaker slaves and pets so the party doesn't get overwhelmed.

Additionally I usually try to include some kind of usable environment in the big fights. Maybe the bard can topple a statue on to some of the enemies, or start flooding the room forcing them closer together. Some secondary objectives that needs something else than HP damage.
(BTW if anyone has input for this kind of usable environment, I'm running out of ideas)

It was really about the non-combat problem solving encounter, rather than focusing solely on combat, the details (for the purpose of conveying this) were not the primary thing I wanted to get across.

[Spore]

Concoct a rival "linear guild" for them. But not mirroring their abilities just rock paper scissoring their strengths and weaknesses. The diviner would have trouble with an necromancer but your crusader can happily get behind a mass of undead. But the diviner can divine and control the dangerous but weak-willed twitchy rogue using poisons.

I already tried this as player and I really loved it (but I adore the idea of rivals in general).

[Ansem]

Things get immunity to mind-affects at mid game and almost everything has it in late game.......
This is something you always keep in mind if you're going to run all the way to lvl 20. Same way you wouldnt throw things with higher AC at your party or certain immunities to elements or other specifics.
They should learn to adapt to the new situation.
Also, easy ways to keep your melees at bay, use conditions like entangling, crippling etc to stop them from moving, debuff them and they should be vulnerable to charms and other stuff requiring a will save.
Plenty of challanges to work with I'd say.

[Tim Proctor]

Put them in water, the crusader can't tank and swim and the minotaur can't charge... I'd say 5-feet of moving water would be enough.