nWoD - Adjusting Storyteller rules

[Cikomyr]

Hi there. I wanted to make a game of Arcanum : Of Steamwork and Magicka using more abstract rules than WFRP or d20, and I gotta say I always tought the nWoD to be suitably flexible and simple for newcomers in RPGs.

Converting the "morality" scale into a Mechanic/Magic scale would probably fit. Most of the adjustement would have to be done on a case-by-case basis, and do not really worry me. However, there is one thing that does:

Race adjustment. What if a player wants to play as an Half-orc, or a dwarf, or an elf? Now, I don't want to give them a flat +1 or -1 stats. It would screw up the XP progression system, plus how do you reflect dwarves' natural affinity with technology? Give them a +1 everytime they use tech? Nah..

Another idea beside the flat +1 stat would be akin to "potency" or "celerity" vampire superpower: an automatic +1 success everytime that specific stat is used. However, I also dislike that idea. these auto +1 successes are usually meant to reflect supernatural powers. Hell, Scion uses it to represent demigod's surnatural powers. Plus, the negatives would be crippling: -1 success? That's bad.

Instead, I thought of a somewhat more complicated idea, but who still falls into the realm of "relatively simple". If you have a natural advantage in a stat (like an Half-Orc's strenght), then you can ignore the first "1" you roll. Species with exceptional bonus in something (Half-Ogres's exceptional strenght, for example) would ignore the first two "1s" they would roll.

It's a bonus that would scale nicely as you focus on that specific stat. It would still allow for low-strenght Half-Orc if that's what you want to play, but Very Strong Half-Orc would be more likely to have great results. In fact, the "weakish" half-orc would merely be immune to disastrous results in their dice roll (less likelihood to end up in negative successes, as they'd need to roll 2x 1s). In the same vein, Dwarf's use of technology would be more reliable, as they automatically ignore the first 1 rolled.

If you have a natural disadvantage in a stat; then it's basically the opposite that would happen: you ignore the first free reroll you get ouf of 10s. That is not going to cripple any character, just prevent them from achieving anything of exception. Exceptionally disadvantaged specie (Half-ogre int, for example) would ignore the first two 10s rolled.

Again, that malus would not cripple a character who wants to pursue a given path (rolling a scholar Half-Ogre, for example), but it would just mean they are less likely to achieve great things. Where a dim human (2 int) would, on occasion, achieve 3 or more successes, such a thing would never be achievable to a dim Half-Ogre.


Please PEACH.

[Juhn]

If this is nWoD, I'm not sure what you mean by ignoring 1s. 1s aren't any different from 2-7s.

IIRC with oWoD if you rolled too many 1s you botch, but that's not the case with nWoD (apart from a couple of Vampire Clan Weaknesses having 1s subtract successes, but that's only the case for a specific subsection of one gameline).

[Cikomyr]

Wait, you don't subtract 1s from the success pool in NWod?!

It's been too long since I read that book :smalleek:

[Juhn]

Only if you're a Nosferatu Vampire making a non-Intimidation-based Social roll, or a Gangrel Vampire making a non-Wits/instinct-based Mental roll, at least to my recollection.

1s are only bad in those circumstances or when rolling a chance die.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Wait, you don't subtract 1s from the success pool in NWod?!

It's been too long since I read that book :smalleek:

With success always being on an 8+ and the relative size of dice pools in NWoD compared to OWoD, no one would ever get anything done if 1's still canceled.

[Juhn]

Oh, I think there's one Fate spell that might mess with 1s and 10s, although the way I'm remembering it is actually "all Failures are Dramatic Failures and all Successes are Exceptional Successes."

I think it's called Zone of Extremity or something?

Anyway, in ~90% of all cases, 1s aren't any different from 2s-7s.

If you want some sort of racial strength bonus you might want to look at the strength bonus that Frankenstein/Wretched Prometheans get?

[Cikomyr]

Oh, I think there's one Fate spell that might mess with 1s and 10s, although the way I'm remembering it is actually "all Failures are Dramatic Failures and all Successes are Exceptional Successes."

I think it's called Zone of Extremity or something?

Anyway, in ~90% of all cases, 1s aren't any different from 2s-7s.

If you want some sort of racial strength bonus you might want to look at the strength bonus that Frankenstein/Wretched Prometheans get?

Aren't these a bit.. supernatural?

[Juhn]

Technically yes, but the only time supernatural stats come in is spending Pyros to reroll a failure (and not having to wait until Azoth 6+ to buy Strength 6+). Otherwise it's just 9-again on non-combat Strength rolls.

[Mewtarthio]

Have you already checked out the races in Mirrors?

[The Glyphstone]

Seems like it'd just be easier to give 9-again to races with an advantage, and remove 10-again from races with a disadvantage.

[Cikomyr]

Seems like it'd just be easier to give 9-again to races with an advantage, and remove 10-again from races with a disadvantage.

That's not bad at all. How about "extreme" advantages? Like Half Ogre's strenght (8-again?) and extreme disadvantage? (1-minus?)

[The Glyphstone]

That could work, yeah. Just make sure it's only in limited circumstances, and of minimal benefit in-combat (an Orc might be 9-agains for non-combat Strength rolls, an Ogre might be 8-against for non-combat Strength and 9-agains for Strength in combat), otherwise you'll be providing a disproportionate advantage. Same goes for other stats, though Disadvantage (lose 10-agains)/Extreme Disadvantage (lose 10-agains, 1's subtract) should apply in and out of combat equally.


You can also just give bonus dice (usually +1 or +2) to races that would have an innate advantage in something, but not such a huge advantage that'd it warrant a 9-again (or if you just don't want the bonus to scale. Something like that would be appropriate for the dwarven bonus to Tech-related rolls that you mentioned.

[Cikomyr]

Well, aren't melee combat's roll Dex-based? Only damage rolls are Str-based.

[The Glyphstone]

That's how OWoD was. In NWoD, the default pool for melee combat is Strength+Brawl/Weaponry+Equipment bonus. There is actually a Merit you can buy, Fighting Finesse, that lets you substitute Dexterity for Strength in the above pool. Ranged combat is Dexterity+Firearms/Athletics+Equipment bonus.

There is no separate Damage/Attack rolls, it's one roll (penalized by opponent's Defense and Armor), and successes are dealt as damage.

[Cikomyr]

Holy crap, I need to review my knowledge of WoD. I keep mixing the systems.

[Kiero]

That's how OWoD was. In NWoD, the default pool for melee combat is Strength+Brawl/Weaponry+Equipment bonus. There is actually a Merit you can buy, Fighting Finesse, that lets you substitute Dexterity for Strength in the above pool. Ranged combat is Dexterity+Firearms/Athletics+Equipment bonus.

There is no separate Damage/Attack rolls, it's one roll (penalized by opponent's Defense and Armor), and successes are dealt as damage.

The standard calculation is wonky as hell and gives you the bizarre "bigger weapons are more accurate" bug.

Unfortunately, you can't just turn the equipment bonus into a post-roll thing you apply as damage/armour because the numbers are all over the place. Still, not all that hard to rejig the numbers for weapons and armour as long as you aren't using those silly lists from Armoury/Armoury: Reloaded.

[Morty]

The God-Machine Chronicle rules do turn weapon bonuses into auto-successes after a successful attack, though.

[Cikomyr]

The God-Machine Chronicle rules do turn weapon bonuses into auto-successes after a successful attack, though.

Is it a bad idea to house-rule some of these things? I mean, I am going to use some sort of Industrial Era-style of weaponry (Steampunk) as well as elements of magic. Doing the whole "Dex for hitting, Str for damage" would make everything more... err... applicable... maybe?

[Morty]

The rules appendix for the God-Machine Chronicle is free, so you can take a look and see if you like it.

[The Glyphstone]

Is it a bad idea to house-rule some of these things? I mean, I am going to use some sort of Industrial Era-style of weaponry (Steampunk) as well as elements of magic. Doing the whole "Dex for hitting, Str for damage" would make everything more... err... applicable... maybe?

That'd require basically rebuilding the combat system from scratch, since it's a single-roll system. Not sure how you'd go about that.

[Kiero]

The God-Machine Chronicle rules do turn weapon bonuses into auto-successes after a successful attack, though.

It does; unfortunately it brings in a whole load of other rubbish in the process. Like new, Fighting Style analogues (we binned the original ones right away as both unbalanced, exploitable and often broken).

[Cikomyr]

That'd require basically rebuilding the combat system from scratch, since it's a single-roll system. Not sure how you'd go about that.

Well, just go back to something more similar to the oWoD combat system? I mean, if both players and NPC use it, can it really be broken?

[The Glyphstone]

Well, just go back to something more similar to the oWoD combat system? I mean, if both players and NPC use it, can it really be broken?

Yes, it could. the OWoD system was a terribly convoluted and muddled mess. You can try to cobble something together from both bames, but it'd be a twisted Frankenstein of rules constantly screaming in tortured agony and praying for the sweet release of death. I'd personally just accept the necessary abstraction (and bake Fighting Finesse as a free bonus merit into all characters to give them the option of an agile fighter instead of a brute), or just forget NWoD entirely and hack OVamp or OMage into something reasonable approximating what you want.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I liked the hack of adding Damage as autosux for Firearms only if you hit rather than increasing dice pool at one point, but then I realized that I was planning this for a Hunter game, and Hunters are the most likely things in the setting to bother using firearms. And why would I give my players nice things?

Not that I'm not going to have them fight gunslinging Mekhet ninjas, I'm just saying.

[Fouredged Sword]

What I have done is have players only roll the damage dice AFTER they rolled their skill+Atribute. This means that large weapons powerful weapons don't matter if you can't hit to begin with. Picking up a larger sword is not use if you simply lack melee skill.

This also has the side effect of improving the value of defense and armor. If you can reduce the attack roll to a chance die, it rarely matters WHAT they are swinging at you.

[SiuiS]

Why not just as in the general world of darkness thread? That's what it's there for...


Hi there. I wanted to make a game of Arcanum : Of Steamwork and Magicka using more abstract rules than WFRP or d20, and I gotta say I always tought the nWoD to be suitably flexible and simple for newcomers in RPGs.

Converting the "morality" scale into a Mechanic/Magic scale would probably fit. Most of the adjustement would have to be done on a case-by-case basis, and do not really worry me. However, there is one thing that does:

The Morality scale is specific to gothic horror. You could just drop it entirely with no real loss.


Race adjustment. What if a player wants to play as an Half-orc, or a dwarf, or an elf? Now, I don't want to give them a flat +1 or -1 stats. It would screw up the XP progression system, plus how do you reflect dwarves' natural affinity with technology? Give them a +1 everytime they use tech? Nah..

Best bet? Do that. Give all dwarves +1 with tech rolls. NPC Dwarves. If a player plays a dwarf (+1 tech) and doesn't put his starting build points into +1 tech, he's made a character that is clumsier than other dwarves. If a player plays an elf (+1 dex) and doesn't have a high dexterity? He's an anomaly but chose to play it. If a player makes a krogan (giant, iron stomach and iron stamina merits) without those merits, maybe he's a juvenile krogan.

Also, note that individual splats do something like this. Changeling gives specialties (which are +1 to certain skills only when working with that specialty), and Mage flat out gives +1 to set attributes. A dwarf with a Computers specialty in Tech, and the merit that lets you apply a specialty to any skill if it's appropriate to the situation, covers you.


Another idea beside the flat +1 stat would be akin to "potency" or "celerity" vampire superpower: an automatic +1 success everytime that specific stat is used. However, I also dislike that idea. these auto +1 successes are usually meant to reflect supernatural powers. Hell, Scion uses it to represent demigod's surnatural powers. Plus, the negatives would be crippling: -1 success? That's bad.

Instead, I thought of a somewhat more complicated idea, but who still falls into the realm of "relatively simple". If you have a natural advantage in a stat (like an Half-Orc's strenght), then you can ignore the first "1" you roll. Species with exceptional bonus in something (Half-Ogres's exceptional strenght, for example) would ignore the first two "1s" they would roll.

Rolling a 1 is not a problem in nWoD anymore. It's listed in exalted, and probably scion, but is a niche rule.

Other splats I am familiar with give 9-again, where you reroll and keep 9s as well as 10s on the die (or 8-again for some things), and penalize you by, say, removing your ability to gain exploding dice on all social skills (or usually just any use of an attribute). Bonus successes come out more often now, but are usually keyed off of some kind of expenditure, like willpower. Just be clear that the +1 success only happens if you roll successes – you aren't guaranteed to succeed, you just succeed more when you do.

Finally, there is one instance of a boost, where you score a dramatic success on only 3 successes instead of 5. No idea how it shakes out in Play yet, though.


The trick is to come up with something that works well across the board rather than having a bunch of niche abilities, I think. Alternately, you could assume everyone has a template, and make a series of templates like in Changeling, where everyone has their race (seeming) and sub race (kith) that you vaguely balance.


It does; unfortunately it brings in a whole load of other rubbish in the process. Like new, Fighting Style analogues (we binned the original ones right away as both unbalanced, exploitable and often broken).

As a note, the fan game Mass: the Effectig had some GMC rules for a while. Specifically, weapons add successes not dice (because a shotgun had greater accuracy at max range than a rifle at close range), and you can downgrade a failure into a dramatic failure for a willpower point/XP/whatever (because normal dramatic failures aren't; they are predictable, not dramatic, and rarely come up).

[Kiero]

As a note, the fan game Mass: the Effecting had some GMC rules for a while. Specifically, weapons add successes not dice (because a shotgun had greater accuracy at max range than a rifle at close range), and you can downgrade a failure into a dramatic failure for a willpower point/XP/whatever (because normal dramatic failures aren't; they are predictable, not dramatic, and rarely come up).

Mass: the Effecting predates GMC by quite a while. They do share some similar changes (no longer adding weapons or armour to the dice pool, but instead calculating their impact after a hit has been confirmed). Those basic changes to the combat mechanics are not what I have an issue with. All the other guff they added alongside it (and new Merits) are.

[SiuiS]

Mass: the Effecting predates GMC by quite a while. They do share some similar changes (no longer adding weapons or armour to the dice pool, but instead calculating their impact after a hit has been confirmed). Those basic changes to the combat mechanics are not what I have an issue with. All the other guff they added alongside it (and new Merits) are.

Ah, I missed the rest of my point then;

Don't use the stuff you don't like.

You've got a well-balanced (internally) system for weapons and armor and stuff, and you can cherry pick to your hearts content with little to no loss.

[Kiero]

Ah, I missed the rest of my point then;

Don't use the stuff you don't like.

You've got a well-balanced (internally) system for weapons and armor and stuff, and you can cherry pick to your hearts content with little to no loss.

But my point is that we already did that. My group worked out that little calculation fix for themselves without GMC, and the rest of it doesn't really seem to offer much that appeals to me.

As before, fixing core nWoD is pretty easy if you're willing to rejig the weapons and armour values (and basically everything just runs from 1-3L or 1-6B for weapons and 1-3 points of reduction for armour).