[PF] How in the world would you come back from this?

[Reinkai]

So hypothetically, if you were to Stone to Flesh someone, teleport them over an ocean and then hit them with a Transmute Rock to Mud as they fall into the ocean... how would you go about getting them back?

Stone to Flesh specifically says that the creature is not dead, but that if turned back any deformities remain. So True Resurrection is out. Going to the bottom of the ocean and randomly using Mud to Rock and Stone to Flesh seems... unlikely. Even using Dispel Magic to try to undo the Rock to Mud and then using Stone to Flesh on that (I'd assume then doing a resurrection of some type on the bit of flesh) isn't much better of an option.

As a GM, I'm not even sure I'd allow Wish to bring them back although I would consider miracle. I could be persuaded otherwise.

Thoughts? Or is this a pretty damn good way to be rid of someone?

[Jack_Simth]

So hypothetically, if you were to Stone to Flesh someone, teleport them over an ocean and then hit them with a Transmute Rock to Mud as they fall into the ocean... how would you go about getting them back?

Stone to Flesh specifically says that the creature is not dead, but that if turned back any deformities remain. So True Resurrection is out. Going to the bottom of the ocean and randomly using Mud to Rock and Stone to Flesh seems... unlikely. Even using Dispel Magic to try to undo the Rock to Mud and then using Stone to Flesh on that (I'd assume then doing a resurrection of some type on the bit of flesh) isn't much better of an option.

As a GM, I'm not even sure I'd allow Wish to bring them back although I would consider miracle. I could be persuaded otherwise.

Thoughts? Or is this a pretty damn good way to be rid of someone?
Well...
1) Transport Travellers clause of Wish to get all of their material into one spot (you have to be specifically unwilling to get the save, and unconscious people can't make that choice).
2) Disjunction to get rid of any lingering magic.
3) Transmute Stone to Flesh to turn them into a (likely rather dead) lump of flesh.
4) Resurrection to bring them back.

[Keneth]

If you can teleport them over an ocean, why not just teleport them into a volcano?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Flesh to Stone -> permanently PAO into oil -> burn oil.


Nothing left to target with a spell - even wish, the target is not dead and can't be raised. That's as close to permanent removal as you can get.

[Reinkai]

Good points, Jack!

And I was thinking it would be harder if the currents scattered the mud all over the vast ocean, rather than limited to a volcano. I suppose that would work too.

And wow, the PAO idea is awesome!

[ryu]

Flesh to Stone -> permanently PAO into oil -> burn oil.


Nothing left to target with a spell - even wish, the target is not dead and can't be raised. That's as close to permanent removal as you can get.

Target the carbon dioxide released during the burning.

[Reinkai]

Target the carbon dioxide released during the burning.

I like this... I needed to have to look at the rules on PAO. It's a duration spell, though from the table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object) it would probably be permanent.

But when you burn it, it's no longer an object that's simply polymorphed. The object itself was destroyed (though physics says matter cannot be created or destroyed, which is why I'm entertaining the CO2 concept).

Hm... alright. So you use divination to find out what happened. A wish to teleport the remaining CO2 somewhere (perhaps into a sealed vacuum tube). At this point you have a bunch of gas which used to be a person. I would say it's beyond a simple Dispel at this point to reverse the PAO.

So what would you do with the gas to get it back to flesh to for the person to technically "die"? Would people rule CO2 in a vacuum tube as a viable target for another PAO into flesh?

Personally, I'd say CO2 isn't an object (at best it's a gas, at worst it's a large number of particles, far too many to be targeted by PAO).

[ryu]

I like this... I needed to have to look at the rules on PAO. It's a duration spell, though from the table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object) it would probably be permanent.

But when you burn it, it's no longer an object that's simply polymorphed. The object itself was destroyed (though physics says matter cannot be created or destroyed, which is why I'm entertaining the CO2 concept).

Hm... alright. So you use divination to find out what happened. A wish to teleport the remaining CO2 somewhere (perhaps into a sealed vacuum tube). At this point you have a bunch of gas which used to be a person. I would say it's beyond a simple Dispel at this point to reverse the PAO.

So what would you do with the gas to get it back to flesh to for the person to technically "die"? Would people rule CO2 in a vacuum tube as a viable target for another PAO into flesh?

Personally, I'd say CO2 isn't an object (at best it's a gas, at worst it's a large number of particles, far too many to be targeted by PAO).

Decrease the temperature until it liquifies or even solidifies. Can't target a gas? Make it stop being a gas then.

[Clistenes]

I might be remembing it wrong, but, didn't the description of PAO say that, if you turn somebody into sand or something similar and disperse it, the person is considered dead? Wouldn't the person die when the mud is dispersed by sea currents, allowing the person to be resurrected with True Resurrection?

[John Longarrow]

Reinkai,

I wish all of the parts of <<PERSON>> were here in front of me in their correct locations such that <<PERSON>> is in the same condition they were moments before they were turned to stone.

As a quick "Wish" wording that sounds like something a wish could pull off. Effectively a large area prestidigitation to "Collect" all of <<PERSON>>'s bits, teleport to move <<PERSON>> in front of me, and stone to flesh on <<PERSON>>.

As a collection of three spells, one of which is being applied over a large area, this does sound like what burning a bunch of XP with wish is for.

[Reinkai]

Decrease the temperature until it liquifies or even solidifies. Can't target a gas? Make it stop being a gas then.

...Touché.


I might be remembing it wrong, but, didn't the description of PAO say that, if you turn somebody into sand or something similar and disperse it, the person is considered dead? Wouldn't the person die when the mud is dispersed by sea currents, allowing the person to be resurrected with True Resurrection?

Yes, but Flesh to Stone specifically says that the creature does not die until turned back to Flesh... so I'm not sure if the PAO rules would supersede that. Besides, I think that was removed from the Pathfinder version of the spell.


Reinkai,

I wish all of the parts of <<PERSON>> were here in front of me in their correct locations such that <<PERSON>> is in the same condition they were moments before they were turned to stone.

As a quick "Wish" wording that sounds like something a wish could pull off. Effectively a large area prestidigitation to "Collect" all of <<PERSON>>'s bits, teleport to move <<PERSON>> in front of me, and stone to flesh on <<PERSON>>.

As a collection of three spells, one of which is being applied over a large area, this does sound like what burning a bunch of XP with wish is for.

A valid point. Perhaps I was overthinking the situation...

[Psyren]

burn oil


Nothing left

That's not how chemistry works :smalltongue:

[Clistenes]

Reinkai,

I wish all of the parts of <<PERSON>> were here in front of me in their correct locations such that <<PERSON>> is in the same condition they were moments before they were turned to stone.

As a quick "Wish" wording that sounds like something a wish could pull off. Effectively a large area prestidigitation to "Collect" all of <<PERSON>>'s bits, teleport to move <<PERSON>> in front of me, and stone to flesh on <<PERSON>>.

As a collection of three spells, one of which is being applied over a large area, this does sound like what burning a bunch of XP with wish is for.

Mmmm...Wish explicitly can both teleport anybody to any place and rebuild destroyed bodies, so I think asking for all the bits of mut to be brought back to a single place would be well within the safe limits of the spell.

[ArqArturo]

Isn't there a spell called Stone to Lava?.

[Benthesquid]

Well, first off, I'm not sure you can cast Rock to Mud on a stone version of someone. Rock to mud specifies natural, uncut, or unworked stone. A statue wouldn't generally be considered any of those, even if it became a statue automatically rather than being cut and sanded. So it would be Flesh to Stone, grind up into little pieces manually or with another spell, and then dump in the ocean.

Anyways, Wish should definitely be able to reassemble the person's bits, although you may or may not require them to use a different spell slot to actually resurrect them.

[John Longarrow]

Benthesquid
Haboob on the statue and let it turn to powder!

[Feint's End]

That's not how chemistry works :smalltongue:

Now this made me laugh ... bravo sir!

[Slipperychicken]

Wish might be able to transport travelers to any place.. but it says nothing about time.


Take the remains (or at least a portion of them), then Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) to various time periods and scatter the ashes not only across the universe, but across time itself.

Dump some (or all) of the remains at the very end of time (there's no limit to how far in the future Teleport Through time can go), ideally with only a few rounds to go before the end, then manifest Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) so the remains leave the time stream and never re-enter it because there's no time stream to come back to.

[ArqArturo]

That's not how chemistry works :smalltongue:

But alchemy does :smallamused:.

[Just to Browse]

That's not how chemistry works :smalltongue:

Also pi is not 4.

Welcome to Dungeons & Dragons.

[Slipperychicken]

Also pi is not 4.

Welcome to Dungeons & Dragons.

Which edition has pi = 4, again?

[Jack_Simth]

Which edition has pi = 4, again?
None of them have it directly; the conclusion of pi=4 is a consequence of the way distances are measured on a square grid, and comes from using a five-foot radius effect. The affected area of a five-foot radius blast is 100 square feet (four squares), and has an effective diameter of forty feet (four edges, each two squares long).

However, if you're using that approximation, you suddenly have problems when you get to larger radius effects, as then pi varies based on radius.

[Arbane]

Which edition has pi = 4, again?

pith Edition, of course.

[Spore]

There MAY be things that you shouldn't reasonably come back from. Rules-crunching aside, this IS one of them.

[Slipperychicken]

There MAY be things that you shouldn't reasonably come back from. Rules-crunching aside, this IS one of them.

I'd say that needing multiple wish spells (with the associated XP costs) counts as unreasonable. Even one wish is pretty unreasonable before high levels.

[ninjamaster1991]

So hypothetically, if you were to Stone to Flesh someone, teleport them over an ocean and then hit them with a Transmute Rock to Mud as they fall into the ocean...

*snip*


Stone to Flesh

Very easily. All they'd have to do is pass their Swim checks. :smalltongue:


Seriously, though, Flesh to Ice from Frostburn, followed by an optional Scorching Ray would be plenty easier, and needs lower level spells.

[Captnq]

I wish up a new body.
I cast true resurrection.
I show off being a Wizard:3/Cleric:3/Mystic Theurge:10/Arcane Hierophant: 4.