Dipping into ToB For Assassin's stance

[Cho'steh]

I need a simple words explanation for how dipping 1-2 levels of Swordsage gets a character Assassin's Stance. The way i am reading, it seems you would have to wait till 5th level to get a 3rd level stance/maneuver.

[Rubik]

I need a simple words explanation for how dipping 1-2 levels of Swordsage gets a character Assassin's Stance. The way i am reading, it seems you would have to wait till 5th level to get a 3rd level stance/maneuver.I'll probably be swordsaged (heh), but non-ToB levels count as 1/2 initiator level each for all purposes. So a fighter 4/crusader 1 would have a crusader initiator level of 3, even though it only has one crusader level. That means that the character can pick up level 2 maneuvers, and his maneuvers use 3 as their initiator level when counting the benefits thereof.

If the character in question was a warblade 4/crusader 1, the warblade initiator level would be 4.5 (rounded down), and the crusader's initiator level would be 3.

[edit] Not swordsaged!

[lsfreak]

Your non-ToB classes count as half levels for qualifying for maneuvers.

[Manly Man]

Every two levels of any other class counts as one initiator level for determining maneuvers. Therefore, you could reach Assassin's Stance by taking a single level of Swordsage at 9, at which point you would count as being a level five initiator (Four for the eight levels of whatever, and then the fifth for one level as a Swordsage, even though you've only had one actual level of the class). You only get the amount of maneuvers and stances as a first-level Swordsage, but the level of maneuvers that are available are as though you have five levels in a martial adept class.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just get Novice Shadowhand gloves for 3K GP if that is all that you want.

[WhamBamSam]

Every two levels of any other class counts as one initiator level for determining maneuvers. Therefore, you could reach Assassin's Stance by taking a single level of Swordsage at 9, at which point you would count as being a level five initiator (Four for the eight levels of whatever, and then the fifth for one level as a Swordsage, even though you've only had one actual level of the class). You only get the amount of maneuvers and stances as a first-level Swordsage, but the level of maneuvers that are available are as though you have five levels in a martial adept class.You can only learn a 1st level stance at Swordsage 1, so you need at least two levels of Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance. So you have 6+ levels of whatever, then take two levels of Swordsage, get some maneuvers, Wis to AC in light armor, and Assassin's Stance.

[Cho'steh]

Thanks for the help. I missed that about the half-levels ^.^

[lsfreak]

You can only learn a 1st level stance at Swordsage 1, so you need at least two levels of Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance. So you have 6+ levels of whatever, then take two levels of Swordsage, get some maneuvers, Wis to AC in light armor, and Assassin's Stance.

The 1st level stance only at 1st level is debated, usually revolving around "you begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance." If you're dipping from another class, you've already begun play and thus aren't restricted to 1st level. Alternatively, the adjective "1st-level" is descriptive rather than rules text.

[Curmudgeon]

The 1st level stance only at 1st level is debated, usually revolving around "you begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance." If you're dipping from another class, you've already begun play and thus aren't restricted to 1st level. Alternatively, the adjective "1st-level" is descriptive rather than rules text.
Here's how the RAW of it shakes out.

The "begin play" statement is part of the Class Features section of the Swordsage class. The Player's Handbook dictates the steps you follow whenever you attain a new class level on pages 58-59. Here are the instructions for the last step:

9. Class Features: Check your character’s class description in this chapter for any new capabilities your character may receive. Many characters gain special attacks or new special powers as they advance in levels.
On your first level in the Swordsage class, "Stances Known" is a new capability for your character. You follow the rule there:

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.Because the PH dictates that you only reference the Class Features section of a class when you attain a new level, you "begin play" in a class when that's new for your character: i.e., always at the first level in each class. There is no global "begin play" in the rules; it's only a feature of individual classes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You could always take 1 level at ECL 9 and then grab it with a feat if restricted to a 1st level stance. I'd just take the 2nd level, though. You could do other stuff 6 / Swordsage 2. Though, getting those initial 6 maneuvers at 3rd level is tempting, and would mean other stuff 8 / Swordsage 2.
Or, if you were going to do the first progression anyway, you could do other stuff 4 / Swordsage 1 / other stuff 2 / Swordsage +1. Because it gives you the same maneuver options at that point. And is more useful if say...you wanted to use the Weapon Focus to qualify for Master Thrower, or whatever.

[Person_Man]

Just get Novice Shadowhand gloves for 3K GP if that is all that you want.

+1

Also, since you'll be getting Sneak Attack, you'll probably want to take Staggering Strike and/or Craven.

[Chronos]

Quoth Curmudgeon:

Because the PH dictates that you only reference the Class Features section of a class when you attain a new level, you "begin play" in a class when that's new for your character: i.e., always at the first level in each class. There is no global "begin play" in the rules; it's only a feature of individual classes.
Does the same reasoning imply that any character who multiclasses to wizard gets a spellbook for free?

[Darrin]

Just get Novice Shadowhand gloves for 3K GP if that is all that you want.

There's an argument that stances only count as maneuvers for the purposes of qualifying for prereqs, and are thus not eligible for these maneuver-granting items.

ToB p. 43:

"Stance: A stance is not a maneuver, but a specific fighting method that you maintain from round to round."

Later on the same page:

"Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for learning higher-level maneuvers, or qualifying for prestige classes or feats."

And yes, I'm aware of what it says on page 5:

"Stance: A stance is a special type of maneuver."

And on page 31 (under Martial Stance):

"Your martial adept level for using this maneuver is equal to your levels in martial adept classes (if any) + 1/2 your levels in other classes."

If you want to pick up a stance this way, make sure you check with your DM first to see if he's on the same page.

[Curmudgeon]

Does the same reasoning imply that any character who multiclasses to wizard gets a spellbook for free?
Yes. It's a class feature of a 1st level Wizard.

[Rijan_Sai]

Just use the Unofficial TOB Errata (see sig), if your DM will allow it.

It:
Gets rid of that stupid freaking '1st-level-Stance-no-matter-what!' "debate" (In case it's not obvious, I disagree whole-heartedly with that misreading...:smallmad:);

Fixes stance progression of the classes;

Clarifies Iron Heart Surge;

and so much more!

Edit: It's also the closest thing we will ever have to any decent errata for TOB, due to WotC completely dropping forever any support for 3.X

[Draz74]

Yep, ask your DM for his interpretation of both sticky issues: whether your first stance from a dip can be a higher-level stance, and whether stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of learning them from items.

Although in any case, just Shadow Hands (gloves) won't get you Assassin's Stance on their own, since it has a prerequisite of knowing one other Shadow Hand-discipline maneuver first. You'll at least need the item plus a feat.

[Darrin]

It's also the closest thing we will ever have to any decent errata for TOB, due to WotC completely dropping forever any support for 3.X

Last time I checked, it also seems to think the book ends around page 130, because it doesn't address Aptitude weapon abuse or how the Crown of the White Raven items are supposed to work.

[RedWarlock]

Last time I checked, it also seems to think the book ends around page 130, because it doesn't address Aptitude weapon abuse or how the Crown of the White Raven items are supposed to work.

Not true, that stuff is just in the spoiler for the next post, rather than the main. (he might have hit a character-limit for that first post).

I'm not seeing a change to the what level stances are granted at first level in that errata. Where's that?

[Rijan_Sai]

Last time I checked, it also seems to think the book ends around page 130, because it doesn't address Aptitude weapon abuse or how the Crown of the White Raven items are supposed to work.


Page 148 - Aptitude Weapon Quality [Clarification]
This ability has no effect on feats that have a set list of weapons that they apply to, such as Blade Meditation feat in chapter 3. The feat has to mention "choose a weapon" in the text, or at least a phrase along those lines.

Page 149 - Crown of White Ravens [Addition]
After the last sentence in the Effect paragraph, add "Stances cannot be contained in this item. The maneuver is added to your list of maneuvers known for the purposes of readying maneuvers, but not meeting prerequisites of feats, prestige classes, magic items, maneuvers, or any other effect that requires maneuvers known. The maneuver must be readied as normal. You must meet all requirements for the maneuver in order to benefit from this item, including having a high enough initiator level to actually learn the maneuver."

If you attempt combine two or more Crowns into the same item (see the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 282), each crown involved must be of a different type (Novice, Scholar, Master), and must contain a different maneuver in each instance. You cannot, for example, combine three Crowns that each contain the Leading the Attack strike, but you could combine three crowns that contain Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics, and White Raven Hammer.

The above rules apply to the variants of the Crown of White Ravens.

It's split into two parts in that link.


I'm not seeing a change to the what level stances are granted at first level in that errata. Where's that?
:smallconfused:Hmm...I guess I remembered wrong about that part...:smallsigh: :smallconfused: :smallyuk: :smallmad: