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Another_Poet
2013-10-25, 01:01 AM
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SilverLeaf167
2013-10-25, 01:13 AM
I agree, this is a very neat idea and historical tidbit (thanks for that btw), but unfortunately I think it would be sort of difficult to fit into the typical D&D setting. I mean, most deities are already worshipped in multiple places and have multiple temples. Even if the evokers basically went "come with us and we'll build you a new temple, you know, in addition to those you already have", it would be a net loss for the deity since he'd lose another temple in the process.

Even if the city was under special protection from the deity or something, there's most likely some special reason for that, so I don't think the deity would be too easy to persuade.

Now, I can think of at least one case where this would work: if the city is under the deity's protetion because an artifact of his is stored there. The attackers might somehow be able to convince him that the artifact would be safer in their hands.

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-10-25, 01:31 AM
Now, I can think of at least one case where this would work: if the city is under the deity's protetion because an artifact of his is stored there. The attackers might somehow be able to convince him that the artifact would be safer in their hands.

Or the god could do some basic math and realize he's losing ~10,000 worshipers and gaining ~1,000,000 by converting. If we go with the "Roman" idea and say Big Empire is attacking tiny city.

If the opposite is true then, yeah, the deity would be stupid to switch sides. But otherwise...

Another_Poet
2013-10-25, 02:11 AM
In D&D I think it would work best with a racial deity, since there aren't usually city-specific deities.

The alignment system also complicates it. I can't really picture a Good deity abandoning Good followers. But the overall idea, of a nation of clerics suddenly without their powers, seems like a cool plot idea...

The Oni
2013-10-25, 03:45 AM
You'd basically have to look at Gods and do some serious reconstruction. You'd have to have them, like, fundamentally defined by their followers; maybe, not only can having devoted followers help them, but having devoted haters can harm them.

And so Evocation would effectively be performed by anti-clerics who are basically trained haters. Sort of like Ur-Priests? But's it's less about getting the power, and more about taking it away from the God. So the God might convert to the other side rather than suffer the badthink? IDK.

Mastikator
2013-10-25, 04:00 AM
So instead of imposing your gods on them, you steal their gods from them and impose them on yourself?

That is pretty mind blowing.

Silverbit
2013-10-25, 05:36 AM
I am so stealing this. Thanks for the info.

HerrTenko
2013-10-25, 05:49 AM
This might not work perfectly with DnD, but hell if it doesn't for other games. This could be a major plot point for Exalted!:smallbiggrin:

Doorhandle
2013-10-25, 05:58 AM
THAT is cool. Really is a shame in-game evocation isn't used like that.


Best used in Exalted. Because then, the seduction is pretty literal. :smallbiggrin:

Lorsa
2013-10-25, 06:01 AM
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snowblizz
2013-10-25, 07:08 AM
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Adoendithas
2013-10-25, 07:26 AM
That is really cool, I never knew that. Idea officially stolen.

Killer Angel
2013-10-25, 08:53 AM
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That is known, but this is a different thing.
And it's amazing! :smallcool:

Segev
2013-10-25, 09:08 AM
I think, actually, that this doesn't work so well in D&D because gods are typically viewed as being nearly omni-present and, if someplace has their protection, a god abandoning it for "greener pastures" would more than likely DAMAGE said god's reputation and worship throughout the world in which it happened. Gods in D&D are not typically "local protectors paid with worship," but actually something that "chose" this people. Lolth is about the only goddess I could see succombing to this kind of thing, and then likely only in drow-on-drow warfare (because she LOVES that sort of one-upsmanship, especially when it's done as lavish "we'll worship you even MORE" nonsense directed to her own selfish vanity).


In Exalted, on the other hand, this is a fascinating idea. Exalted gods are infamously fickle, greedy, venal creatures who almost extort worship from their followers. The Immaculate Order is known for upsetting gods in areas they take over because they force them into a rigid and regulated worship schedule, but this would be an interesting twist. "You'll lose the constant worship of this little city, but gain a regular stipend of worship from a world-spanning empire."

Radar
2013-10-25, 10:19 AM
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CarpeGuitarrem
2013-10-25, 11:04 AM
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Joe the Rat
2013-10-25, 01:06 PM
Or if you switch to (or go back to) pantheon priests, it's all about recruitment.

Evocatio is a cleric thing, not a wizard thing.

Fun fact: the old school... er, school was invocation/evocation. Now go look at the roots for invocation...

Another_Poet
2013-10-25, 01:37 PM
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Lord Raziere
2013-10-25, 01:59 PM
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heh, now I have an idea for a cleric.

he wouldn't worship any deity in particular he would just worship "all the ones that people forgot" and hope that he got spells, and he would. and then he would go around doing things with them that he interprets from getting said spells.

maybe even roll to see what spells he gets, and he just goes around trying to do things with the spells, thinking that the forgotten gods mean for him to use those spells. he gets a healing spell? he goes looking for someone to heal. he gets a bull's strength? obviously someone needs to be strengthened so that their job may be done better.

and when asked what god he serves he just shrugs and says "don't know".

Tiiba
2013-10-25, 02:05 PM
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The Oni
2013-10-25, 02:49 PM
Timmy, the Cleric of the Unknown God?

Winthur
2013-10-25, 03:28 PM
wololo
ayollo-lu
wololo
hayoyoyu
wololo

Ninjadeadbeard
2013-10-25, 04:27 PM
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Yep. Pretty much.

QuintonBeck
2013-10-25, 04:42 PM
heh, now I have an idea for a cleric.

he wouldn't worship any deity in particular he would just worship "all the ones that people forgot" and hope that he got spells, and he would. and then he would go around doing things with them that he interprets from getting said spells.

maybe even roll to see what spells he gets, and he just goes around trying to do things with the spells, thinking that the forgotten gods mean for him to use those spells. he gets a healing spell? he goes looking for someone to heal. he gets a bull's strength? obviously someone needs to be strengthened so that their job may be done better.

and when asked what god he serves he just shrugs and says "don't know".

That is an absolutely awesome idea! I may have to steal that... :smallbiggrin:

Jay R
2013-10-25, 04:42 PM
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Not at all. They are expensive whores; they only bless the highest bidder.

Cheap ones would bless everyone.

Adoendithas
2013-10-25, 05:03 PM
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Another_Poet
2013-10-25, 05:15 PM
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Topus
2013-10-25, 05:38 PM
Yes, i remember Evocatio from college times, when we studied Latin, indeed a very interesting ritual. Maybe it roots in the ancient Palladium theft episode, in which Achaeans stole from Troy the Palladium, a statue that was supposed to defend the city from being invaded.
In fact, they literally took the guardian deity from the city to make it undefended by divine powers.
To be specific, the Evocatio was intended to be used towards the guardian deity of a single city, not towards the general pantheon, so if a city is sacred to, let's say, Astarte they are going to beseech her to abandon the city and to join Rome, in which she will be much more honored.
The meaning of this ritual is to make the city a place without sacrality, thus making the excuse to righteously besiege it (the righteous war, iustum bellum). Please note that the romans never explicitly stated which was their guardian deity, to avoid the exploitation of Evocatio against Rome :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, only the dictator or the imperator (the general of the army, not the ruler of Roman Empire age) could cast an Evocatio, so in game mechanics it could be a power available only for high level dual class cleric/warrior (or maybe only a feature for high level warriors). It is also stated that it was a very inspiring ritual for the troops, so boost moral and maybe +1 to hit and damage.

Another ritual i remember from my studies was the Devotio, a powerful ritual by which the leader of the army sacrifice his life to became an almost unstoppable killer machine glowing in the nimbus a powerful aura of terror and power. The meaning is to sacrifice his life so at the end of the ritual he is almost killed.

AuraTwilight
2013-10-25, 06:01 PM
It's always really neat to see this forum collectively shard itself over objective awesomeness. Stealing this for my game.

Berenger
2013-10-25, 06:30 PM
So Roman gods are basically cheap whores who bless the highest bidder?

The emperors body guard also consisted of cheap whores that blessed the highest bidder. It was a time-honoured tradition.





heh, now I have an idea for a cleric.

he wouldn't worship any deity in particular he would just worship "all the ones that people forgot" and hope that he got spells, and he would. and then he would go around doing things with them that he interprets from getting said spells.

maybe even roll to see what spells he gets, and he just goes around trying to do things with the spells, thinking that the forgotten gods mean for him to use those spells. he gets a healing spell? he goes looking for someone to heal. he gets a bull's strength? obviously someone needs to be strengthened so that their job may be done better.

and when asked what god he serves he just shrugs and says "don't know".

Did you read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett?

Lord Raziere
2013-10-25, 07:59 PM
Did you read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett?

Yes, don't remember much of it though. oh right, they meet a guy in the desert with a bunch of faded forgotten gods and there is this guy who sort of….worships them and gets stuff because of it, and the turtle god sort of protects his follower from the forgotten gods because they want him to worship them to.

guess its kind of like that guy they met. only more heroic and travel-y. didn't realize that.

Slipperychicken
2013-10-25, 09:36 PM
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wololo
ayollo-lu
wololo
hayoyoyu
wololo

Best verbal components ever. I've got to remember this for the next time I play a Cleric and spam Dominate Person at people :smallbiggrin:

Or, when I cast a spell with a 10-minute casting time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tBqdKGiqnI), like Contact Other Plane, Bestow Curse, Geass/Quest, and so on.

Radar
2013-10-26, 05:45 AM
(...) To be specific, the Evocatio was intended to be used towards the guardian deity of a single city, not towards the general pantheon, so if a city is sacred to, let's say, Astarte they are going to beseech her to abandon the city and to join Rome, in which she will be much more honored.
The meaning of this ritual is to make the city a place without sacrality, thus making the excuse to righteously besiege it (the righteous war, iustum bellum). Please note that the romans never explicitly stated which was their guardian deity, to avoid the exploitation of Evocatio against Rome :smallbiggrin: (...)
For some reason it is very similar to the notion of True Names. If you know the patron god of a given city, you can use it to really hurt them. I wonder if there is some actual connection, or is it just a coincidence.

Topus
2013-10-26, 06:45 AM
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Another_Poet
2013-10-26, 07:59 AM
For some reason it is very similar to the notion of True Names. If you know the patron god of a given city, you can use it to really hurt them.

I actually took that comment of Topus' as a joke. There was no secret which gods the Romans worshipped or which ones were appealed to during times of war. In any case, if your patron deity was not public information then it would be impossible for your citizens to properly worship him/her and make offerings when your city comes under siege. In Rome, the temples of all the major deities were quite large and visible, and if an enemy claimed to carry off any one of those gods it could be quite demoralizing, I suppose.

With that said, I agree with all Topus' comments about the power of naming things in myth and magical beliefs.

Topus
2013-10-26, 09:00 AM
I actually took that comment of Topus' as a joke. There was no secret which gods the Romans worshipped or which ones were appealed to during times of war. In any case, if your patron deity was not public information then it would be impossible for your citizens to properly worship him/her and make offerings when your city comes under siege. In Rome, the temples of all the major deities were quite large and visible, and if an enemy claimed to carry off any one of those gods it could be quite demoralizing, I suppose.

With that said, I agree with all Topus' comments about the power of naming things in myth and magical beliefs.

No it wasn't intended to be a joke :smallsmile:
As I said, Evocatio was supplication toward the specific tutelary deity of the city. It is what latin called the genius loci, the guardian spirit of the city. It's not only about the most beautiful temple in the city, it's about the real guardian deity of the city (you can make a parallelism with the modern figure of patron saint of a city). So, for example, during the Evocatio against Carthage they prayed Tanit, the patron deity, to leave the city and they absorbed her as the new deity Juno Caelestis.
As for the city of Rome, there was an intended public patron deity, that was Juno, but the real numen tutelaris was kept secret and referred to as Genius urbis Romae (spirit of the city of Rome).
There's even a politician who have been executed for the attempted revelation of the secret name of the genius. He was Quintus Valerius Sorianus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Valerius_Soranus).

Slipperychicken
2013-10-26, 12:49 PM
Naming a thing is such an inherently human activity that maybe it became a prominent distinctive activity from animals, thus meaning a source of power.

It is a source of power, in that naming and categorizing things vastly improves our cognitive efficiency (including our ability to teach others about the things we've named). That way, we don't need to investigate every object to see what qualities it has, but we can generalize a set of qualities to every object placed into preconstructed categories.

Another_Poet
2013-10-27, 01:01 AM
No it wasn't intended to be a joke :smallsmile:
...It's not only about the most beautiful temple in the city, it's about the real guardian deity of the city (you can make a parallelism with the modern figure of patron saint of a city).

Yes, I understood what you meant, I just had never heard of Rome keeping theirs secret before. I was all set to ask for a citation, but one of the footnotes in the linked Valerius Sorianus article indicates it is speculated that the secret name in question was that of Rome's tutelary deity. To be clear, even that footnote seems uncertain, and indicates it may have simply been a secrt name of Rome itself, not a deity, that was protected information. Either way that's pretty fascinating.

Of course, we can infer that whatever Sorianus leaked was not the real secret name, since if it was then by executing him the authorities would have publicly verified the leaked secret name :smalltongue: If he leaked the real one, the more appropriate response would be to show leniency in his trial, after having several priests testify that he'd gotten it wrong :smallamused:

Roland St. Jude
2013-10-27, 01:03 AM
Sheriff: Real world religion is not an appropriate topic for this forum, even when it intersects gaming topics. Given that this is staying locked, I'm not going to scrub every inappropriate post. Give the inappropriate topics a wide berth.