Bull Rush

[hoverfrog]

Does a successful hit from the attack of opportunity on a bull rush prevent the bullrush if the opposed strength check succeeds? I'd assumed that it did but reading the description (copied below) if seems that I might well be in the wrong. If there an official ruling on this from WotC? Is there a link to it if there is?

Thanks.

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush
First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

[Gwendol]

Why would it? There is nothing in the rules for Bull Rushing that suggests this to be the case. I think you may confuse this with the rules for initiating grapple, where a successful AoO foils the attempt to grab the opponent.

[hoverfrog]

Why would it? There is nothing in the rules for Bull Rushing that suggests this to be the case. I think you may confuse this with the rules for initiating grapple, where a successful AoO foils the attempt to grab the opponent.I think you're right. I'd wrongly assumed that any attack that provoked an AoO also stopped the attack.

:smallfurious: Oh well, you live an learn.

On a positive note my PCs will be bullrushing much more often from now on. :smallsmile:

[ArcaneGlyph]

Only thing that foils the rush is a failure on the opposed check. It could maybe be argued that taking damage dropping your hps below 0 from the AOO could foil the attempt as it would resolve prior to the bull rush resolving.

[Person_Man]

Gwendol is correct.

It's also worth mentioning that there is almost never an instance in a real game where someone will provoke an attack of opportunity because of a Bull Rush.

It's basically suicide to attempt a Bull Rush without Improved Bull Rush, and unless you optimize it (Shock Trooper, Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, etc) the results are basically worthless. So either you invest in Bull Rush as a combo, or you don't and you never use it.

[hoverfrog]

It's basically suicide to attempt a Bull Rush without Improved Bull Rush, and unless you optimize it (Shock Trooper, Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, etc) the results are basically worthless. So either you invest in Bull Rush as a combo, or you don't and you never use it.A PC in my game bull rushed a thug who was at the top of a ladder. Got hit on the AoO and won the strength check.

I've now ruled that the thug is knocked back down the ladder and takes damage from the fall. Those behind him got a reflex save (DC10) to avoid taking 1d3 non-lethal damage and also getting knocked over. That was after mistakenly assuming that the AoO caused the bull rush to fail.

It's clear that she wanted to block the thugs from climbing up the ladder by pushing one back into the group. An excellent plan for someone about to be attacked by four people. She's only a bard and has little in the way of combat skill.

Of course the round the thug stood (move action) and attacked and his three mates ran past her (provoking AoO) anyway so it was only a slight delay.

Do you think that there is another way to rule this?

[Person_Man]

A PC in my game bull rushed a thug who was at the top of a ladder. Got hit on the AoO and won the strength check.

I've now ruled that the thug is knocked back down the ladder and takes damage from the fall. Those behind him got a reflex save (DC10) to avoid taking 1d3 non-lethal damage and also getting knocked over. That was after mistakenly assuming that the AoO caused the bull rush to fail.

It's clear that she wanted to block the thugs from climbing up the ladder by pushing one back into the group. An excellent plan for someone about to be attacked by four people. She's only a bard and has little in the way of combat skill.

Of course the round the thug stood (move action) and attacked and his three mates ran past her (provoking AoO) anyway so it was only a slight delay.

Do you think that there is another way to rule this?

So I think you did a really good job adjudicating it.

But the real question is this - how often do you want your players to attempt combat "stunts" - things that that a normal heroic humanoid should be able to attempt, but doesn't necessarily have a specific piece of crunch (Feat/Spell/Class Ability/etc) for?

By default, attacks of opportunity and the way bonuses are structured in 3.X/PF D&D strongly discourages combat stunts. It's a lot easier to just Power Attack someone for 50 damage and kill them with 1 attack instead of making a Bull Rush, taking an AoO, having them take minimal falling damage, and maybe the people they run into take a little damage as well.

If you're ok with that, run RAW or RAW-ish D&D. It's a fun game.

If you prefer for PCs to make stuff up as they go along, make it as easy as possible for them to do so, and make the consequences of their stunts as meaningful as the consequences of other Feats/Spells/Class Abilities/etc. In this particular example, you could have allowed a single opposed Strength check (with no attacks of opportunity), and if the player succeeds, the enemy falls, takes normal attack damage (including Power Attack et al), being knocked prone, and everyone he falls onto must make a Reflex Save or be knocked prone and take a little damage as well.

The up side of the second methodology is that it encourages players to try different things. The down side is that they will constantly try different things, and once you make a ruling on something, they'll expect/hope that they can try that thing repeatedly, in which case you've now created an elaborate set of stunt house rules.

[hoverfrog]

I'm aiming for a middle ground. I like inventive play, swinging from lampshades to cross the main hall, pushing people down stairs, etc but it comes with a headache and I don't like those too much. ;)

[Piggy Knowles]

In the last IRL game I played in, we played with action points. They could be used like standard action points, or they could be used for some sort of crazy stunt. If you wanted to try something that the rules didn't necessarily support but that seemed cool or inventive, you could spend an action point, and then the DM would make up rules on the fly for how to handle it.

I... can't really tell you how it worked in practice. I think I saw it used once during more than half of running through RHoD. The problem is, the DM gave lots of other uses for action points as well, the big one being regaining spell points (we were playing a spell point system as opposed to Vancian magic), so basically everybody used all of their action points to do that. However, it does seem like a way to balance both styles of play that Person_Man mentioned - it lets you rule stuff on the fly for those too-cool-not-to-try crazy stunts, but limits how often it will happen.

[Person_Man]

I... can't really tell you how it worked in practice. I think I saw it used once during more than half of running through RHoD. The problem is, the DM gave lots of other uses for action points as well, the big one being regaining spell points (we were playing a spell point system as opposed to Vancian magic), so basically everybody used all of their action points to do that. However, it does seem like a way to balance both styles of play that Person_Man mentioned - it lets you rule stuff on the fly for those too-cool-not-to-try crazy stunts, but limits how often it will happen.

If you ever have a chance, I would encourage you to play or at least read through d20 variant Fate (http://www.faterpg.com/) or any Fate derivative game (like the Dresdon Files). Everyone gets X points. You can use these points to buy abilities, which generally have a discrete effect or power set. Or you can use them to buy stunts, which improve abilities/powers. And whatever you don't spend on stuff gets kept as Fate points, which can be used to modify rolls or just make stuff up that happens if you can invoke one of your Aspects (roleplaying characteristics). It's a cool game that straddles the line between discrete rules and make stuff up as you go, and you can easily incorporate aspects of it into any d20 game.