Good aligned demon lord?

[Xuldarinar]

A notion that has come to my mind quite recently.

Demons, in spite of their nature, can become good aligned. For instance, we see this with Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). Given the right motivations, they can learn good and even become good, but they would struggle with their nature.

My question is, given the (at least virtually) infinite nature of the abyss, could there exist a demon close to, if not possessing, the rank of demon lord who is (at least attempts to be) good. Furthermore, if one were to exist, what type of demon would it most likely be? Loumara (the newest and born of the fragmenting dreams of dead gods), Obyrith (the oldest and strangest subtype of demon), or Tanar'ri (the most common subtype of demon)?

[Red Fel]

I would think that, as a demon grows in power, it becomes proportionately less likely to become Good, for several reasons.

First, consider that demons, like all alignment-subtype Outsiders, are intrinsic representations of their alignments. Alignment change isn't as easy for them as it is for natives of the Prime, because their alignment is inherent. Yes, Eludecia is an example of an exception, but she is nonetheless an exception.

Second, consider that, as a demon grows more powerful, by their very nature, they become corrupted by that power. Stronger demons are necessarily more evil, just as stronger angels are necessarily mightier symbols of good. The bigger they get, the further they have to go to switch alignments.

Third, consider hierarchy. Admittedly, demons are less hierarchical than devils, but there are bigshots where they come from. When you're a lesser demon, you're just a face in the crowd, but the bigger you get, the more noticeable you become. Do you really think a particularly powerful demon could start showing signs of Good and not be noticed? That his peers or superiors wouldn't simply annihilate him at the first sign of "weakness"?

All that said, you can certainly make the argument that these points cut both ways. Eludecia shows that there can be exceptions. Stronger demons are also able to think more clearly, demonstrate more independence - and with that comes the ability to choose. And more powerful demons may be noticed by their hellish brethren, but they are also more likely to be noticed by any heavenly agents who would relish the chance to recruit something that powerful for the forces of Good.

Now, all that said, a demon lord would not redeem, first and foremost. That would be absolute chaos; all of the abyss would unite against him before that happened. Anything close to a demon lord would probably be eaten by a demon lord before it happened.

Given the seemingly infinite layers, it is possible, but increasingly unlikely at that power level.

[Psyren]

The only impossible thing is impossibility, as they say. The problem though is that good or even neutral demons, even when they exist, are unlikely to stay that way especially in the Abyss - they will generally be either corrupted or ganged up on and slaughtered. It would be about as likely as an evil archon joining the Hebdomad or an evil Guardinal becoming a Favored Companion.

[Telonius]

If you followed the Shackled City storyline to its conclusion, you'd end up with a PC or group of PCs in charge of Occipitus, a layer of the Abyss.

I'm not sure if this would count as being a "demon lord," but it would be pretty close.

[123456789blaaa]

The only impossible thing is impossibility, as they say. The problem though is that good or even neutral demons, even when they exist, are unlikely to stay that way especially in the Abyss - they will generally be either corrupted or ganged up on and slaughtered. It would be about as likely as an evil archon joining the Hebdomad or an evil Guardinal becoming a Favored Companion.

Yeah I'd say that this hypothetical demon lord would probably move somewhere else.

[Deophaun]

My question is, given the (at least virtually) infinite nature of the abyss, could there exist a demon close to, if not possessing, the rank of demon lord who is (at least attempts to be) good.
If it is a possibility at all, no matter how slight, then there are an infinite number of good-aligned demon lords, as that is the nature of infinity.

[LordAsreil]

Well there have been instances where the planes have shifted, even to a level where entire layers of planes shift to another, there are a few ones but i can't remember them right now.

It could be possible for a Demon lord to change and if that is a substantial change in the planes he/she may shift the entire layer to another Plane.

Or it might be that depending on the like between the Layer and its Lord that enough of a change in the nature of the layer will force a shift in the Demon Lord that rules it.

[Psyren]

If it is a possibility at all, no matter how slight, then there are an infinite number of good-aligned demon lords, as that is the nature of infinity.

There are an infinite number of demons, but the number of demon lords/archdevils is finite.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I had a homebrew god of good aligned demons actually. It is a cool concept to work into a game.

[Deophaun]

There are an infinite number of demons, but the number of demon lords/archdevils is finite.
Citation needed.

[Telonius]

... is this one of those topics where we divide infinity by infinity and all end up crosseyed?

[Spore]

I had a homebrew god of good aligned demons actually. It is a cool concept to work into a game.

Wouldn't he eventually become evil or be overwhelmed by other demons? He has to feed on souls to keep his wheel turning, doesn't he? Otherwise he is just a god in a really ruff neighbourhood.

[Starmage21]

I would think that, as a demon grows in power, it becomes proportionately less likely to become Good, for several reasons.

First, consider that demons, like all alignment-subtype Outsiders, are intrinsic representations of their alignments. Alignment change isn't as easy for them as it is for natives of the Prime, because their alignment is inherent. Yes, Eludecia is an example of an exception, but she is nonetheless an exception.

Second, consider that, as a demon grows more powerful, by their very nature, they become corrupted by that power. Stronger demons are necessarily more evil, just as stronger angels are necessarily mightier symbols of good. The bigger they get, the further they have to go to switch alignments.

Third, consider hierarchy. Admittedly, demons are less hierarchical than devils, but there are bigshots where they come from. When you're a lesser demon, you're just a face in the crowd, but the bigger you get, the more noticeable you become. Do you really think a particularly powerful demon could start showing signs of Good and not be noticed? That his peers or superiors wouldn't simply annihilate him at the first sign of "weakness"?

All that said, you can certainly make the argument that these points cut both ways. Eludecia shows that there can be exceptions. Stronger demons are also able to think more clearly, demonstrate more independence - and with that comes the ability to choose. And more powerful demons may be noticed by their hellish brethren, but they are also more likely to be noticed by any heavenly agents who would relish the chance to recruit something that powerful for the forces of Good.

Now, all that said, a demon lord would not redeem, first and foremost. That would be absolute chaos; all of the abyss would unite against him before that happened. Anything close to a demon lord would probably be eaten by a demon lord before it happened.

Given the seemingly infinite layers, it is possible, but increasingly unlikely at that power level.

I agree pretty much with what is here. What I would like to add is that the Abyss is infinite, but you can have exceptions and still have infinity. The Abyss is infinite, but nothing Good naturally exists there. A good aligned demon lord would be a powerful figure, but he would be not be a lord of any layer unless he returned to evil.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wouldn't he eventually become evil or be overwhelmed by other demons? He has to feed on souls to keep his wheel turning, doesn't he? Otherwise he is just a god in a really ruff neighbourhood.

No. Gods don't need to feed on souls. And he was a rank 18 deity whose portfolio included demons. Other denizens of the abyss gave him a wide berth.

[Marlowe]

Eludecia is a Succubus. A Succubus relates to mortals of various alignments in order to do their job. They're also fairly weak as demons go, and probably might resent being the tools of the higher-ups in the pecking order.

So it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a Succubus might jump the fence out of exposure to a different viewpoint. Or resentment. Or a desire for a better existance. A Demon Lord though? It seems unlikely.

[Angelalex242]

Well, if this were Middle Earth, where the Balrog...I mean, Balor...is taken from...

Balrogs are Maiar Morgoth corrupted. Theoretically, what Morgoth did, another Vala could undo. It might take more then one, but it could be undone.

But if you remove the corruption...well, there's a reason Sanctify the Wicked, mightiest of all redemption spells, works on everything but Evil Outsiders. Red Dragon, cool. Illithid, knock yourself. Beholder, go for it.

Succubus? Nope. Eluccidea can't happen by Sanctify the Wicked. I'm half sure that boyfriend of hers must've been an Emmissary of Bachariel with epic bonuses, but hey.

Thus, to redeem a demon lord, he or she would probably have to spend time with Bachariel himself, backed up by several mortal Emmisaries.

[Dawgmoah]

A notion that has come to my mind quite recently.

Demons, in spite of their nature, can become good aligned. For instance, we see this with Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a). Given the right motivations, they can learn good and even become good, but they would struggle with their nature.

My question is, given the (at least virtually) infinite nature of the abyss, could there exist a demon close to, if not possessing, the rank of demon lord who is (at least attempts to be) good. Furthermore, if one were to exist, what type of demon would it most likely be? Loumara (the newest and born of the fragmenting dreams of dead gods), Obyrith (the oldest and strangest subtype of demon), or Tanar'ri (the most common subtype of demon)?

A an angel can fall it would perhaps show that a demon could return to a state of grace.

Maybe build their own plane like the island of misfit toys.

[Winds of Nagual]

Couldn't a demon - in the process of becoming good - transform into an Archon? Seems the physical transformation might be easier than the alignment one.

[Psyren]

Citation needed.

You sure love throwing down the gauntlet with me don't you?

FC1 155 (Appendix 1: Lords of the Abyss) is the full list. FC1 goes on to establish itself as the authority on the subject:


THE DEFINITIVE SOURCE

If you have been tainted by earlier explorations into demonic lore, rest assured that Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss is the definitive DUNGEONS & DRAGONS v. 3.5 book on the subject. Material contained int his tome updates earlier material, drawing from earlier sources freely and eliminating contradictions. If you have used earlier sources and you find lore in those books that contradicts Fiendish Codex... well, demons are known for spreading misinformation.

[Red Fel]

A an angel can fall it would perhaps show that a demon could return to a state of grace.

Maybe build their own plane like the island of misfit toys.

Can being the operative word. An angel can fall, a demon can redeem. But as the above posters indicate, the more powerful an Outsider becomes, the less likely that change is.

As to your other point, of redeemed Evil Outsiders finding their own sanctuary, I find that highly unlikely for a simple reason - they are too powerful to be ignored. Evil Outsiders will be hunting them for their treachery. Good Outsiders will be watching them to see if they fall again - which even Eludecia's description reveals may be a possibility. Even the Good-aligned Evil Outsiders can't fully change their primal nature. Neither side will ever let them know peace.


Couldn't a demon - in the process of becoming good - transform into an Archon? Seems the physical transformation might be easier than the alignment one.

No more than a dog who abandoned the principle of loyalty in favor of independence would suddenly turn into a cat. Outsiders aren't just the Outsider type, they also have their alignment subtype. That subtype is like their species. Even a Good-aligned Evil Outsider is still an Evil Outsider. No matter what its alignment, it is an Evil Outsider - that's what it is. Body and spirit are one, and the creature is on every level an Evil Outsider. Short of fundamentally changing the creature, which would likely take nothing short of divine intervention, it will remain an Evil Outsider. Even if it embraces the highest ideals, pursues the noblest goals, and humbles even the Tome Archons with its goodness, it will remain an Evil Outsider.

No neat transformation sequence, sorry. This isn't Disney.

[Yuki Akuma]

Outsiders totally can transform into something else, especially fallen angels - Asmodeus, for instance. Or first-generation Erinyes.

They don't always do that, though. There's a difference between a demon becoming a Good-aligned demon and a demon ceasing to be a demon altogether.

[Slipperychicken]

I mean, demons are incarnations of chaotic malevolence, so I don't see them willingly following any leader, much less one who has rejected the wickedness and insanity which is the very essence of demon-hood.

[Telonius]

A Lawful Good demon might just be the greatest meta-demon of them all.

"So I'm supposed to be Chaotic Evil, just because I'm a demon? Screw that and your expectations! I'm not going to follow the herd. Lawful Good forever, baby!"

[Big Fau]

One word: Sparda.

[Marlowe]

Would that also turn him into a Devil?

[Manly Man]

You sure love throwing down the gauntlet with me don't you?

FC1 155 (Appendix 1: Lords of the Abyss) is the full list. FC1 goes on to establish itself as the authority on the subject:

Also from said book is a layer of the Abyss that's partly Good-aligned: Androlynne. Given, it's also used as hunting grounds for Pale Night to grab some kiddie-eladrin trophies, but half of the layer's like Elysium. A demon lord that turned Good might find a bit of solace there, and would certainly be an interesting ally for the celestial creatures there, as well as a highly sought-after target for Pale Night.

...This actually sounds like a great high-level adventure in the making.

[hamishspence]

One of the Epic destinies in 4e's Dragon Magazine Annual (Prince of Hell) allows you to become a devil lord yourself- without necessarily changing your alignment.

So the basic concept- of a heroic archfiend- appears to be supported to a degree.

[peacenlove]

If you followed the Shackled City storyline to its conclusion, you'd end up with a PC or group of PCs in charge of Occipitus, a layer of the Abyss.

I'm not sure if this would count as being a "demon lord," but it would be pretty close.

To expand on that, this campaign features a delusional demon lord who acted for some time kinda good until he mentally snapped (partly because of outside ... factors).

In 2nd Edition in an angel handbook (don't remember name), it was stated that fiends of any rank could repent and live in the lower realms of Mt. Celestia until they fully reform.

PF has the son of Dispater as an reformed angelic avenger.





No more than a dog who abandoned the principle of loyalty in favor of independence would suddenly turn into a cat. Outsiders aren't just the Outsider type, they also have their alignment subtype. That subtype is like their species. Even a Good-aligned Evil Outsider is still an Evil Outsider. No matter what its alignment, it is an Evil Outsider - that's what it is. Body and spirit are one, and the creature is on every level an Evil Outsider. Short of fundamentally changing the creature, which would likely take nothing short of divine intervention, it will remain an Evil Outsider. Even if it embraces the highest ideals, pursues the noblest goals, and humbles even the Tome Archons with its goodness, it will remain an Evil Outsider.

No neat transformation sequence, sorry. This isn't Disney.

Obyrith (qlippoth in PF) lords were turned into tanar'ri lords, and they generally hate each other at least as much as the forces of Good.

Triel, formerly an angelic being, is one of the 9 (think it is Belial or Baalzebul).




My question is, given the (at least virtually) infinite nature of the abyss, could there exist a demon close to, if not possessing, the rank of demon lord who is (at least attempts to be) good. Furthermore, if one were to exist, what type of demon would it most likely be? Loumara (the newest and born of the fragmenting dreams of dead gods), Obyrith (the oldest and strangest subtype of demon), or Tanar'ri (the most common subtype of demon)?

Let's just say that becoming Good from Evil is as easy as the opposite.
Let's also not attribute that behavior to madness or manipulation from a greater force.
Obyriths are out because they were Chaotic Evil before the term was conceived. They need to transform to something that can understand the relationship between Good and Evil instead of instinctively hating it.
Loumara may or may have not access to the possessed creature memories so they could be influenced by them, making them a more likely candidate. However no known Loumara lords exist AFAIK.
So my bet is that if someone is to reform, that would be a Tanar'ri.

[Clistenes]

According to the Shackled City Adventure Path, if a good aligned creature were to seize and take control of a layer of the Abyss, and maintain control of it for a LONG time, it could eventually break from the Abyss and go somewhere else in the Outer Planes.

Of course, the layer we are speaking about was already heavily contaminated by Good, but still, it's the only source we have.

[Alleran]

To expand on that, this campaign features a delusional demon lord who acted for some time kinda good until he mentally snapped (partly because of outside ... factors).

In 2nd Edition in an angel handbook (don't remember name), it was stated that fiends of any rank could repent and live in the lower realms of Mt. Celestia until they fully reform.

PF has the son of Dispater as an reformed angelic avenger.

Obyrith (qlippoth in PF) lords were turned into tanar'ri lords, and they generally hate each other at least as much as the forces of Good.

Triel, formerly an angelic being, is one of the 9 (think it is Belial or Baalzebul).
To add another note, at the conclusion of the Savage Tide AP it's possible to have one of the PCs take on the mantle of Prince of Demons, with all attendant rights, benefits and privileges pertaining thereunto. That includes lordship over the 88th layer of the Abyss, morphic control over the entire layer, the tanar'ri subtype (gained upon taking the mantle), theoretical command of demons in the layer (mind you, if the PC proves too weak, then they'd probably get ganked). Oh, and consort of Malcanthet (because the Prince of Demons has the Queen of Succubi as a lover/consort).

Downsides are that the PC's alignment shifts to Chaotic or Evil (if it was already Chaotic, then it goes to Chaotic Evil, if it was already Evil it goes to Chaotic Evil, and so on), and every month they have to pass a DC 30 Will save as the Abyss attempts to work its will and reshape them into the Prince of Demons, which would entail suddenly going mad, gaining a split personality, and eventually grow a second head. Assuming they fail the Will save.

You don't necessarily become evil immediately (might be a good idea to not be Chaotic when you take the job if you don't want to be Evil, though...), but it's quite clear that given time, the Abyss intends to force you down that road. And one of the "Continuing the Campaign" notes is that eventually, Demogorgon will be rebirthed by the Abyss. Guess who'll top his list of people to get revenge on?

[Fax Celestis]

Saw thread title, immediately thought: "So...daedric princes?"

[Cirrylius]

First, consider that demons, like all alignment-subtype Outsiders, are intrinsic representations of their alignments.

Second, consider that, as a demon grows more powerful, by their very nature, they become corrupted by that power.

Third, consider hierarchy. Admittedly, demons are less hierarchical than devils, but there are bigshots where they come from.

Now, all that said, a demon lord would not redeem, first and foremost. That would be absolute chaos; all of the abyss would unite against him before that happened. Anything close to a demon lord would probably be eaten by a demon lord before it happened.

I agree with all of these except the last; if something happened to redeem a Lord, considering the giant "f**k all the rest of you" mentality that comes with the Chaos component of their alignment, they'll do it if they think they can get away with it, by escaping, hiding from, or defeating their malefactors.

That said, there IS one MORE reason why a demon of Lord status would be almost certain never to turn. Lords and Princes are intrinsically tied to their layer; when they gain control, they have to battle the Abyss itself for dominance, and if they lose they're swallowed forever. Imagine how much more savagely the Abyss would combat a good demon, and how much more poorly equipped a good demon would be to make that struggle under their new alignment. Then, even if it were possible to fight, lose, and disengage without being consumed, imagine what easy prey a former Lord would be without his Lordship.

I imagine the best-case scenario would be the Abyss rejecting the former Lord by exacerbating the natural alignment-centric planar shift and just... coughing him out to Ysgard or Arborea. For the locals to discover.

[Psyren]

Saw thread title, immediately thought: "So...daedric princes?"

Doesn't "daedra" really just mean "outsider?" It has negative connotations because most of the ones people hear about or see are evil (or at least amoral) but I was under the impression that daedra aren't equivalent to tanar'ri or baatezu in the D&D sense.

[Deophaun]

You sure love throwing down the gauntlet with me don't you?
Hey, I like easy victories.

FC1 155 (Appendix 1: Lords of the Abyss) is the full list.
Uh, no. It doesn't say it's a "full" list. It's just a list. It's not prefaced the way, say, the list in Draconomicon is prefaced as being of all True Dragons. Look at the next list: Layers of the Abyss. Are you saying that layers 15 and 16 don't exist? Same reasoning. These aren't exhaustive.

Unless, of course, you have a source for that. Otherwise, you've got nothing to counter BoVD's claim of "countless" demon lords (pg. 125).

FC1 goes on to establish itself as the authority on the subject:
And again, nothing in there contradicts BoVD's claim of countless demon lords. We just have a list of the counted ones.

Well, that was short. So, yeah, if there's a chance that any given demon lord can become good, then there are an infinite number of good demon lords. Of course, if demon lords can only become good through the application of a finite resource (like the effort of the aforementioned Bachariel), then that's a different story.

[Psyren]

Hey, I like easy victories.

And I like my ignore list! You two will have a lot of time to get to know each other. Enjoy.

[Red Fel]

I would argue that there's a difference between an "infinite" number of demon lords, as you propose Deo, and an "indeterminate" number of demon lords, which I would support as a valid statement.

I think it's fair to say that there is no conclusive, exhaustive list of demon lords, and that even if there were, the DM has the authority to add to or alter that list as needed.

I think it's an untenable stretch to say that there is an infinite number of demon lords, as that would likely prove substantially unbalancing to the D&D cosmos. If there were infinite demon lords - an endless number of beings powerful enough to control a layer of the Abyss - how could the Blood War continue? How is it that neither the Hells nor Celestia have been overrun?

[Craft (Cheese)]

If it is a possibility at all, no matter how slight, then there are an infinite number of good-aligned demon lords, as that is the nature of infinity.

It's very possible for a subset of an infinite set to be finite, or empty: The set of primes is infinite, but the set of primes less than 7 has only 3 members, and the set of even primes greater than 2 is empty.

[Coidzor]

No more than a dog who abandoned the principle of loyalty in favor of independence would suddenly turn into a cat. Outsiders aren't just the Outsider type, they also have their alignment subtype. That subtype is like their species. Even a Good-aligned Evil Outsider is still an Evil Outsider. No matter what its alignment, it is an Evil Outsider - that's what it is. Body and spirit are one, and the creature is on every level an Evil Outsider. Short of fundamentally changing the creature, which would likely take nothing short of divine intervention, it will remain an Evil Outsider. Even if it embraces the highest ideals, pursues the noblest goals, and humbles even the Tome Archons with its goodness, it will remain an Evil Outsider.

No neat transformation sequence, sorry. This isn't Disney.

Several of the Lords of the Nine are either Fallen Angels or are part of the original contingent of...proto-Archons(?) that fell with Asmodeus as a result of the War of Law & Chaos (which eventually became the Blood War), and they're all now Baatezu. So if a Good Outsider can become an Evil Outsider, there should be some way to transform an Evil Outsider into a Good Outsider, though I believe that the alignment change would naturally have to occur before the change of subtypes.


I think it's an untenable stretch to say that there is an infinite number of demon lords, as that would likely prove substantially unbalancing to the D&D cosmos. If there were infinite demon lords - an endless number of beings powerful enough to control a layer of the Abyss - how could the Blood War continue? How is it that neither the Hells nor Celestia have been overrun?

Well, most of the demon lords know better than to get involved with the Blood War except for occasional dabbling.

I can't recall whether Demon Lords inherently have the ability to take control of a layer of the Abyss and doing so turns them into Demon Princes or not though, I guess I need to re-read the source material since it's been too long.


Doesn't "daedra" really just mean "outsider?" It has negative connotations because most of the ones people hear about or see are evil (or at least amoral) but I was under the impression that daedra aren't equivalent to tanar'ri or baatezu in the D&D sense.

"Not our fathers," IIRC as opposed to the Aedra who are "our fathers," based upon whether they spent their energy to help make reality or hoarded their energy for themselves.

Daedra are mostly capricious, but they often serve the narrative role as gribblies/creatures from the dungeon dimensions/demonic temptors as well as being capricious fey. Very multi-purpose, your Daedra and Daedric Princes.

[Zaydos]

I can see it happening in multiple ways.

The first is a demon lord who naturally strives for good but because of a flaw inherent in their power anything they do using it serves evil and chaos. No redemption here, they are the Abyssal Prince of Futile Hope doomed to forever strive and always cause the opposite result. To make things worse they have come to realize their nature, but can't stop themselves from trying to help people and hoping against hope that this one time it'll work out even though it never does.

I can see a demon gaining redemption, but the argument that it's as easy for evil to become good as the opposite doesn't sit well with me in heroic fantasy; good is the hard path and it is easy to slip from it, no matter how much good you do if you decide to randomly slaughter 18 children and bathe in their blood you become evil, where as becoming good requires a lot of time and effort. That said it's possible for a demon to become good, and I can see even a balor succeeding. Now such a character would probably become something new, a low level arch-outsider (CR 19-23 unique outsider), but becoming such might take millenniums and in the mean time he'd be forced to hide from his fiendish brethren, probably fleeing the Abyss entirely.

If an arch-fiend did become good... I'd rule it would sever his connection with his layer which would cause an uprising among his followers as whatever power boost he received from controlling it is suddenly given to his most powerful servant to do what tanar'ri servants like doing best: Killing their superior.

And yeah I'd say it is least likely to happen with an obyrith and there is too little info on the new ones to state one way or another what their odds are.

The big one is: Can you make a fun story and adventure(s) out of it? If so go for it, if not then it's probably not worth it.

And for the measure I had one of Demogorgon's heads turn CG once (the Great Wheel was turning and it had moved 90 degrees so the Abyss was CG... the party had to make it CE again).

[Deophaun]

I would argue that there's a difference between an "infinite" number of demon lords, as you propose Deo, and an "indeterminate" number of demon lords, which I would support as a valid statement.
This is true. However, it was not the statement I was looking for confirmation of.


I think it's an untenable stretch to say that there is an infinite number of demon lords, as that would likely prove substantially unbalancing to the D&D cosmos. If there were infinite demon lords - an endless number of beings powerful enough to control a layer of the Abyss - how could the Blood War continue? How is it that neither the Hells nor Celestia have been overrun?
Because the Abyss is in turmoil with itself. Additionally, we have no idea how easy it is to get to deeper layers. There are supposedly only 666 layers known. It could be that 667 and beyond are so far removed from the rest of the multiverse that they may as well not exist for all practical purposes.

As the wise man said, amateurs study battles, professionals study logistics. And it looks like the logistics of the Abyss does not support an invasion by infinite forces.


It's very possible for a subset of an infinite set to be finite, or empty: The set of primes is infinite, but the set of primes less than 7 has only 3 members, and the set of even primes greater than 2 is empty.
But the possibility that any given number of an infinite set of prime numbers is less than 7 is 0, which is what I'm getting at.

[Telonius]

... is this one of those topics where we divide infinity by infinity and all end up crosseyed?


It's very possible for a subset of an infinite set to be finite, or empty: The set of primes is infinite, but the set of primes less than 7 has only 3 members, and the set of even primes greater than 2 is empty.

... so ... yes. :smallbiggrin:

[Zubrowka74]

Helm of opposite alignment, anyone ?

[Xuldarinar]

Im noticing the notion of outsiders changing types popping up here, and I think its a little more complicated than a change of alignment.


What I think it is, is that if an outsider is exposed to a plane long enough they can be "corrupted" by the plane's essence. Whether this is a voluntary or involuntary process is unknown to me, but it is something. I've no argument that moving from evil to good (in alignment or subtype) would be harder than from good to evil. Good is a tougher road to follow. Considering these outsides have (at least near) infinite life spans, the process of 'corruption' may require

I agree with the assessment that Obyrith are unlikely candidates for a good demon lord, and all things said that Tanar'ri are the most likely. To add on further, what is the most likely of alignments for such a demon lord to hold? Lawful good is further from the demon's nature, but the discipline may help reinforce their good alignment. Chaotic good is closer, and simply means their chaotic nature may be retained but their actions and outlook moves from malign to benign. Neutral good, for some reason I feel may be harder for a demon than lawful good, but thats just me.

Layer 471, Androlynne, does bring some hope to the notion of a good aligned demon lord. Such a demon lord may rise and liberate the layer, or perhaps another, far more obscure layer.

[Talderas]

There are an infinite number of demons, but the number of demon lords/archdevils is finite.

If there are an infinite number of layers to the Abyss (as is claimed) and the definition of a demon lord is to control one or more layers of the Abyss then there are an infinite number of demon lords.

[Psyren]

I would argue that there's a difference between an "infinite" number of demon lords, as you propose Deo, and an "indeterminate" number of demon lords, which I would support as a valid statement.

I think it's fair to say that there is no conclusive, exhaustive list of demon lords, and that even if there were, the DM has the authority to add to or alter that list as needed.

There may have been more added later, but FC1 explicitly superseded everything that came before, including BoVD.


If there are an infinite number of layers to the Abyss (as is claimed) and the definition of a demon lord is to control one or more layers of the Abyss then there are an infinite number of demon lords.

I get what you're saying, but some control multiple layers (e.g. Grazz't) and some layers are uncontrolled, so it doesn't apply.

[Steward]

No more than a dog who abandoned the principle of loyalty in favor of independence would suddenly turn into a cat. Outsiders aren't just the Outsider type, they also have their alignment subtype. That subtype is like their species. Even a Good-aligned Evil Outsider is still an Evil Outsider. No matter what its alignment, it is an Evil Outsider - that's what it is. Body and spirit are one, and the creature is on every level an Evil Outsider. Short of fundamentally changing the creature, which would likely take nothing short of divine intervention, it will remain an Evil Outsider. Even if it embraces the highest ideals, pursues the noblest goals, and humbles even the Tome Archons with its goodness, it will remain an Evil Outsider.

No neat transformation sequence, sorry. This isn't Disney.


That's not always true. The archon Triel loses his Good subtype and becomes the wholly lawful evil archdevil Baalzebul (FC2) after falling from grace. So you're 99.9999% right about that but there's that one pesky exception.

[Talderas]

I get what you're saying, but some control multiple layers (e.g. Grazz't) and some layers are uncontrolled, so it doesn't apply.

Either the two statements I presented are true or not.

1. Are there infinite layers in the Abyss? Yes/No
2. Do you have to control at least one layer to become a demon lord? Yes/No

If these are both true then demon lords are also infinite. It doesn't matter if there's layers controlled by no demon lord nor does it matter if a demon lord controls multiple layers. The only way to subvert an infinite number of demon lords in that scenario is to have a more powerful force that limits the number of demon lords that can rise regardless of and infinite number of layers in Abyss.

[NichG]

I would say that its more likely that a demon lord's particular view on ethics, morality, and the nature of the cosmos could become so abstract and aetherial that their actions and alignment appear to be almost completely divorced to a mortal observer who can't 'understand the greater plan'.

Basically, you have gods whose viewpoints become so far beyond the concerns of mortals that they are completely incomprehensible, so why not have demons who have grown so much in power that the same thing has happened?

Such a demon lord could be perfectly genial, even help heroes against his kin, and appear - on the surface - to be a model of good in his behavior. Whether or not the consequences his actions eventually creates are for good or evil may not be obvious for mortal generations.

Think A'kin the Friendly Fiend. Maybe he's just a crazy arcanoloth who runs a shop in Sigil, or maybe he's actually the general of Gehenna and is paving the way for an invasion of the upper planes in 300 years, or worse, is undermining the very divide between good and evil in an attempt to dissolve the Upper and Lower Planes entire by rendering good and evil less cosmically absolute. It's hard to say.

[Spore]

Doesn't "daedra" really just mean "outsider?" It has negative connotations because most of the ones people hear about or see are evil (or at least amoral) but I was under the impression that daedra aren't equivalent to tanar'ri or baatezu in the D&D sense.

No. Daedra are the agents of chaos while the Aedra are the agents of stability and order. That's why daedra dabble with mortals while aedra do not.

TES cosmology parts in three areas. Mundus (material realm), Aetherius (upper realms), Oblivion (lower realms where daedric princes reign supreme).

[Psyren]

Either the two statements I presented are true or not.

1. Are there infinite layers in the Abyss? Yes/No
2. Do you have to control at least one layer to become a demon lord? Yes/No

If these are both true then demon lords are also infinite.

There are uncontrolled layers, that's the flaw with your premise. So you can have a finite number of demon lords controlling a very large, but equally finite number of layers, with the remaining multitudes being under no one's dominion.

[Coidzor]

What I recall is this, a Demon Lord is basically any unique Demon, regardless of whether it has a layer of the Abyss. A Demon Prince is any unique Demon Lord who has control and a connection to one or more layers of the Abyss. IIRC, Demon Princes are the archfiends of the Demons, with Demon Lords being roughly analogous to the Dukes of Hell and other unique-fiend Devils. The 'loths are weird and don't have unique archfiends.

The Prince of Demons is a title which is contested between Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgon, IIRC, with previous holders of the title including Mishka the Wolf-Spider and Pazuzu as far as I recall, a sort of "there can be only one deal which is largely irrelevant except as a potential plot point of one of them gaining primacy and doing something.

[Yuki Akuma]

No. Daedra are the agents of chaos while the Aedra are the agents of stability and order. That's why daedra dabble with mortals while aedra do not.

TES cosmology parts in three areas. Mundus (material realm), Aetherius (upper realms), Oblivion (lower realms where daedric princes reign supreme).

Counterpoint: Jyggalag.

Daedra are pretty much the same thing as Aedra. The Aedra simply gave most of themselves into creating Mundus and are therefore less able to interact with the physical world. The Daedra, having taken no part in creating Mundus, don't have that restriction.

"D" is a prefix that means "not". "Daedra" is simply "not Aedra". ("Aedra" meanwhile means "ancestors", because the elves believe they're literally descended from the gods.)

The actual personification of primordial chaos in the Elder Scrolls setting is probably Sithis/Padomay, while his/its opposite is Anu/Anuiel/Ahnurr. While it's true that Daedra as a whole tend to be influenced more by Sithis than by Anu, both Daedra and Aedra are influenced by both of them.

And then there's Jyggalag, who's a Daedra but not very Sithic at all.

Edit: But yeah, Daedra aren't demons. They're just spirits like Aedra are. Some of them are Daedric Princes, but that means some more like 'god' than 'Demon Lord'.

[Fax Celestis]

because the elves believe they're literally descended from the gods

The only elven racial feature that is maintained across systems and universes.

Poncy elves.

I am hereby reserving Dark Orange for Fantastic Racism (in the TVTropes definition, of course) purposes

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Prince of Demons is a title which is contested between Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgon, IIRC, with previous holders of the title including Mishka the Wolf-Spider and Pazuzu as far as I recall, a sort of "there can be only one deal which is largely irrelevant except as a potential plot point of one of them gaining primacy and doing something.

Pazuzu never was as far as I know. Mishka was preceded by Obox Ob.

[Spore]

Counterpoint: Jyggalag.

I was expecting him tbh. I am not really sure if he counts as far as this goes. He might be retconned into the lore as far as I know.

While he IS Daedra and he IS the real form of Sheogorath he would probably interfere with most other realms to clean them up. He doesn't and at the same time fits greatly into the ethical axis of D&D.

[Yuki Akuma]

I was expecting him tbh. I am not really sure if he counts as far as this goes. He might be retconned into the lore as far as I know.


Jyggalag had been mentioned in passing before Shivering Isles, but... that's true of most Elder Scrolls lore. The Daedra we meet face-to-face in the games have most of the development when it becomes to mythological beings. Them and Talos.

Also this is getting wildly off topic.

[Raven777]

Elder Scrolls Lore is never off topic.

[Talya]

Given the seemingly infinite layers, it is possible, but increasingly unlikely at that power level.


Actually...

If something has any possibility of existing at all, no matter how unlikely, and there are an infinite number of opportunities for this thing to come into existence, then the chances of its existence are 100%. Furthermore, if more than one of it can exist, there will be infinite numbers of them.

Basically, if evil demons outnumbered good demons by several quadrillion to one, there would still be infinite numbers of good demons.

Math with infinity is stupid.

[Xuldarinar]

To further add on here.


What if, some where in the depths of the abyss is a layer that is ruled over by a good-aligned demon lord, or even a small group of layers close together of this nature. Most good demons, rare as they are, are left with three choices. Flee the abyss, attempt to hide their nature, or seek out this sort of sanctuary. Deep as this is, travel to it is not easy by any stretch, making other demon lord's attempts to claim them impractical, assuming they even believe such a place even exists.

[Talya]

To further add on here.


What if, some where in the depths of the abyss is a layer that is ruled over by a good-aligned demon lord, or even a small group of layers close together of this nature. Most good demons, rare as they are, are left with three choices. Flee the abyss, attempt to hide their nature, or seek out this sort of sanctuary. Deep as this is, travel to it is not easy by any stretch, making other demon lord's attempts to claim them impractical, assuming they even believe such a place even exists.

Just to further blow your mind, if there's any chance at all of an abyssal layer populated by mostly good demons, and there are infinite layers of the abyss, then there are truly infinite layers of the abyss in which there are mostly good demons.

Math with infinity is still stupid.

The repercussions of allowing this are brutally silly. :smalleek:

[Deophaun]

Math with infinity is stupid.
Indeed.

100% of all numbers in base 10 contain the number 3, for example.

Don't talk to me about 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16... Math proves it!

[Morithias]

One exists in Rosewood.

The Demon King. The God of all demons, the being that even Orcus would not disobey...

...is good aligned.

She's currently working as a nun at a holy church, and is working on diplomatic relationships between the heavens and the abyss. There's even a new island she raised out of the ocean for good-aligned demons to leave the abyss and live.

Needless to say, it hasn't helped the abyss's civil war any, but the heavens figure "better they're killing each other, than killing us."

The devils are driving themselves mad trying to figure out her plan. As far as they can tell "she either has actually gone legit, or has a plan so insane and stored away in her head so deep, an epic psion couldn't pull it out."

[Talya]

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." ~ Albert Einstein

[Slipperychicken]

She's currently working as a nun at a holy church, and is working on diplomatic relationships between the heavens and the abyss. There's even a new island she raised out of the ocean for good-aligned demons to leave the abyss and live.

Needless to say, it hasn't helped the abyss's civil war any, but the heavens figure "better they're killing each other, than killing us."

The devils are driving themselves mad trying to figure out her plan. As far as they can tell "she either has actually gone legit, or has a plan so insane and stored away in her head so deep, an epic psion couldn't pull it out."

Sounds like a gigantic Mary Sue to me.


Besides "make a deal with your enemy, then betray them for profit" is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

[Morithias]

Sounds like a gigantic Mary Sue to me.

Besides "make a deal with your enemy, then betray them for profit" is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

The group that helped her overcome her tainted curse didn't seem to think so.

Needless to say it's still kind of complex for her. To be carrying the soul of the original demon king, and knowing that if the epic-ritual that keeps it in check ever fails it could be trouble...

Quite frankly the main reason she's working there is to try and clear up the misunderstanding that lead to the abyss's creation, and the huge conflict between the two. Needless to say, both sides are fuzzy on it. The demons are unwilling to admit they did anything 'wrong' to the gods, while the gods have obviously painted themselves as the good guys.

Trying to figure out what actually happens is starting to look like the start of the second punic war, it all depends whose side you believe.

Needless to say her task is about as possible as getting the muggles and wizards in harry potter to make peace, but she might as well try. Besides better than living in the abyss, and having a demon lord come for her head.

Oh and the reason no demon would question her? With infinite worshipers comes infinite power. INFINITE layers of the abyss and all. A fair number of her 'worshipers' don't even know what form the current demon king is in!

Well if it was that simple, the devils figure they would've figured it out by now, you know, telepathy, and so on.

As for the nun thing? If you were told to "go find the demon king" would you really start by looking in a holy church? It's the perfect place to hide!

[Yuki Akuma]

Infinite sets can contain finite sub-sets. It's possible for there to be a finite number of good demons despite there being infinite demons.

Infinite sets can also totally not contain certain things. Just because there's an infinite number of demons doesn't imply that the set of all demons contains every possible conceivable body type, for instance. There can be an infinite number of demons without there being a single demon with forty-eight heads.

[Talya]

Infinite sets can contain finite sub-sets. It's possible for there to be a finite number of good demons despite there being infinite demons.

Infinite sets can also totally not contain certain things. Just because there's an infinite number of demons doesn't imply that the set of all demons contains every possible conceivable body type, for instance. There can be an infinite number of demons without there being a single demon with forty-eight heads.

This is true. However, this is because of probabilities, or a lack thereof.

If there is a 1/10^100 % chance of any given demon being good, given an infinite number of demons, there are an infinite number of good demons.


If there is one good demon, and there is a 0% chance of any other demons being good, then there is one good demon.

[TuggyNE]

This is true. However, this is because of probabilities, or a lack thereof.

If there is a 1/10^100 % chance of any given demon being good, given an infinite number of demons, there are an infinite number of good demons.


If there is one good demon, and there is a 0% chance of any other demons being good, then there is one good demon.

In other words, sloppily posing highly unlikely scenarios as a simple result of probability is a bad idea when dealing with infinities.

[Talya]

In other words, sloppily posing highly unlikely scenarios as a simple result of probability is a bad idea when dealing with infinities.

The problem is, pretty much everything is a result of probability. If you cannot state an absolute (always, never, only once, etc.), there are probabilities involved. The old adage, "If it can happen once, it can happen again" applies.


Now, let's look at how we could narrow it down. If you state the absolutes, "(1) No demon can naturally be good. (2) Any demon that could potentially be redeemed would require external influence from outside the Abyss in order to gain a Good alignment. (3) There are a finite number of outside influences on a finite number of demons."

Now you have a finite number of demons in the abyss that have become good.

[NichG]

The difference is the error bars. It is different to say 'we cannot exclude the existence of good demons' and 'we have sampled demons and 0.1% of demons we sample are good'.

Basically, if I make 10000 measurements and never get a positive result, my mean frequency of a positive result is 0%, but I cannot exclude non-zero frequencies. So basically, until I see a good demon, I cannot use the lack of their observation to prove their impossibility. If there are an infinite number of demons, I cannot disprove the possibility of a good demon even with an infinite number of observations, because I can never observe 'all of them'.

[Xuldarinar]

It occurs to me, there is an important question in this. What all is necessary to become a demon lord?

[Slipperychicken]

Basically, if I make 10000 measurements and never get a positive result, my mean frequency of a positive result is 0%, but I cannot exclude non-zero frequencies. So basically, until I see a good demon, I cannot use the lack of their observation to prove their impossibility. If there are an infinite number of demons, I cannot disprove the possibility of a good demon even with an infinite number of observations, because I can never observe 'all of them'.

Well, if you never discover a good-aligned demon even after extensively sampling demon populations and testing them for alignment, then you can certainly use that as evidence to support the hypothesis that good-aligned demons do not exist.

Of course, it is rather difficult to sample a statistically significant portion of an infinite population..

[Morithias]

It occurs to me, there is an important question in this. What all is necessary to become a demon lord?

As far as I can tell, the requirement to be a demon lord is "be powerful enough to take the layer by force."

[Xuldarinar]

As far as I can tell, the requirement to be a demon lord is "be powerful enough to take the layer by force."

That said then, does one actually need to be a demon to be a demon lord?

Could a cambion become a demon lord?
Could a half-fiend become a demon lord?
Could a tiefling (or similar planetouched) become a demon lord?

Alternatively, could a different type of outsider become a demon lord, or even a creature of a different type?

[Manly Man]

It occurs to me, there is an important question in this. What all is necessary to become a demon lord?

Essentially, to be a demon lord, you just need to be the biggest, baddest, and strongest being of your resident layer, and tell everyone that any who wish to challenge your claim or lordship will have to kill you. When you've slaughtered the last of your contenders, then you're set to be considered a worthwhile target by Graz'zt.

[Slipperychicken]

Essentially, to be a demon lord, you just need to be the biggest, baddest, and strongest being of your resident layer, and tell everyone that any who wish to challenge your claim or lordship will have to kill you. When you've slaughtered the last of your contenders, then you're set to be considered a worthwhile target by Graz'zt.

You also have to be smart. Demons are ruthless, conniving bastards with Int scores in the 14-24 range. And being Chaotic, they don't take kindly to orders.

Not to mention that they will, like players in an MMORPG, kill you purely for the lulz.


Demons are a race of creatures native to chaotic evil-aligned planes. They are ferocity personified and will attack any creature just for the sheer fun of it—even other demons.

[Cirrylius]

It occurs to me, there is an important question in this. What all is necessary to become a demon lord?
"Fake it 'til you make it". A demon becomes a Lord when it convinces itself, the other demons it encounters, and finally the Abyss itself, that it is more powerful than his current form will allow. Once it becomes strong enough to get the Abyss' attention, it takes on a layer in a psychic tug-of-war to establish dominance, and becomes a Lord if it wins. If it loses, it is consumed by the plane in the same manner as a merging petitioner, and ceases to exist as an individual.

[Manly Man]

Indeed. In the Fiendish Codex, they even warn you in the chapter 'Trafficking With Demons', that you will have to give them a good reason not to kill you for the sake of feeling your guts squelch in their fingers. Graz'zt's my favorite demon prince because he's got the intelligence, wits, and most of all, patience to think beyond the fun in murdering you, though.

[Morithias]

Indeed. In the Fiendish Codex, they even warn you in the chapter 'Trafficking With Demons', that you will have to give them a good reason not to kill you for the sake of feeling your guts squelch in their fingers. Graz'zt's my favorite demon prince because he's got the intelligence, wits, and most of all, patience to think beyond the fun in murdering you, though.

That's basically why a lot of rumors are spread that he's actually a former devil. Or possibly just a spy for the devils, some sources even say he might be Asmodeous' SON.

[Coidzor]

One exists in Rosewood.

What is this? Where is this?

[Zaydos]

On the question of what can become a demon lord... can't answer well for demons but turning to Baatezu.

A Night Hag was one of the Lords of the Nine throughout 2nd and 3rd Edition, 3.5 though decided this was just a gambit by Asmodeus to transfer the plane's power to his daughter and the Night Hag was never 100% the layer's lord.

Bel is a Pit Fiend. Until late 3.0 his stats were: See Pit Fiend. He was also siphoning power from its still living former lord and if she had ever gotten free she would have reclaimed the layer. Now he's a really physically nasty pit fiend with nerfed SLAs.

In AD&D 1st edition Tiamat was the Lord of the First for a while but this might have been back when she was just a really nasty dragon and not a goddess.

And in my personal opinion I allowed a Druid on his way to becoming a Lich to become the Lord of the 6th after aiding a former Lord of the 6th become Lord of the 9th by overthrowing Asmodeus. In so doing he is probably becoming an Undead Evil Outsider who is in tune with the nature of Baator which is unrelenting Law and Evil.

[Morithias]

What is this? Where is this?

Homebrew setting.

Basically the setting I run that has a 'continuity', say what you will about it "not being canon", but if we're going by canon alone, this thread is a moot point anyway.

[peacenlove]

To further add on here.


What if, some where in the depths of the abyss is a layer that is ruled over by a good-aligned demon lord, or even a small group of layers close together of this nature. Most good demons, rare as they are, are left with three choices. Flee the abyss, attempt to hide their nature, or seek out this sort of sanctuary. Deep as this is, travel to it is not easy by any stretch, making other demon lord's attempts to claim them impractical, assuming they even believe such a place even exists.

It would break off the Abyss and maybe join a plane with a similar alignment.
Demons could be good (or schizophrenic enough to believe so). Thing is that the Abyss itself can't.

[Cambrian]

The difference is the error bars. It is different to say 'we cannot exclude the existence of good demons' and 'we have sampled demons and 0.1% of demons we sample are good'.

Basically, if I make 10000 measurements and never get a positive result, my mean frequency of a positive result is 0%, but I cannot exclude non-zero frequencies. So basically, until I see a good demon, I cannot use the lack of their observation to prove their impossibility. If there are an infinite number of demons, I cannot disprove the possibility of a good demon even with an infinite number of observations, because I can never observe 'all of them'.Is an infinite number of observations even worth considering given the very impossibility of it? (for the record I agree with the other parts of your post)

That being said, since we're focused on probabilities, would it not be true given D&D cannon that: (1) the nature of the abyss is either finite or (2) the nature of the abyss makes it so the layers only close to the surface interact with the rest of the multiverse in a meaningful way.

I bring this up because probability wise you never hear about the 'Six hundred and seventy five billion, two hundred and f... seventh' layer. The likelihood that only the upper most layers being significant to cannon without being significant in any other way in an infinite set is well, infinitely close to zero. (hopefully that sentence makes sense)

It could instead be that the layers aren't in any sort of actual order (the chaotic nature of the Abyss might support this) or even something like the lower layers are so chaotic that they aren't anything comparable to what are thought of as planes (or even several other possibilities I have not thought of). I'm no expert (i.e. Afroakuma) on D&D cannon but the above points raise some questions given the Cannon.

[NichG]

Is an infinite number of observations even worth considering given the very impossibility of it? (for the record I agree with the other parts of your post)


Mostly I was being thorough to try to forestall various possible misunderstandings or misinterpretation of probabilities. The statement 'if there is a non-zero probability of a thing having X characteristic, then in an infinite number of things an infinite number will be X' is formally true, but actually determining the difference between a zero and non-zero probability is basically impossible when you're talking about an infinite set of things to sample over; the infinite samples case was to show just how hard it would be to tell.

In fact, its so hard that even if you encounter a finite number of things that actually do have the characteristic, you still can't tell if the probability is non-zero! (because if there is 1 good demon in all of creation but an infinite number of demons total, the probability of a demon being good is still formally zero).



That being said, since we're focused on probabilities, would it not be true given D&D cannon that: (1) the nature of the abyss is either finite or (2) the nature of the abyss makes it so the layers only close to the surface interact with the rest of the multiverse in a meaningful way.


Yes, I agree with this. In general, the probability of something from the Nth layer influencing the rest of the cosmos should scale like exp(-a*N) where a is some constant describing the average 'difficulty' one would encounter in passing a given layer. Since this distribution falls off quickly, the integrated influence of the layers is finite despite the infinity of layers, and is dominated by the layers closest to the top.

This does require you remember that you cannot skip layers; if you want to go to 666 you have to go through the other 665 layers first. Once things like Miracle/Wish being able to bypass that rule come into play, then you have an Olber's Paradox situation.

Which I guess is proof that the putative demon lords of the lower layer are so bad that even gods won't grant them miracles!

[Xuldarinar]

After looking over things, I believe I have determined one of the most likely candidate demons for becoming a demon lord and possessing a good alignment (possibly retaining at least some sense of morality after 'ascending' to the rank of demon lord)

Demon, Cambion (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, pg 195-197)

They are the children of tanar'ri fathers and planetouched mothers, with a stronger verity being the children of a demon lord or demon prince, and a half-fiend.

As far as their alignment goes:


Alignment: Cambions are usually chaotic evil, but about one in ten is neutral or even good because its tiefling mother was not evil. These wretched creatures are doomed to a miserable existence as loners because good-aligned communities rarely accept them.

In their table entry, they are listed as often CE, as opposed to the always chaotic evil listed for demons, the always evil (any) listed for half-fiends, and the usually evil (any) listed for Tiefling.

Now, one in ten are good or neutral. Its a demon that actually states in it's entry that there is a number of them that are neutral or even good. Where as most demons, the odds are (10^-X)%, with cambion it is 10%. All things considered, lets say you have 100 cambions. Odds are 90 are evil, and 10 are not. Of these, we could assume that anywhere from 5 to 9 are neutral, and the remaining are good.

I would say it is unlikely for there to be marquis and baron cambions that are good aligned, as their mothers are half-fiends, but if she is good aligned then surely one of these -could- be good, and if not there is still a chance no matter how remote, but given that this verity are not given a specific statistic, we can simply assume the odds are just less than that of standard cambion.

[TuggyNE]

In fact, its so hard that even if you encounter a finite number of things that actually do have the characteristic, you still can't tell if the probability is non-zero! (because if there is 1 good demon in all of creation but an infinite number of demons total, the probability of a demon being good is still formally zero).

In short: don't try to mix probability and infinities without some serious math training because you'll get one, the other, or most likely both mixed up when trying to reason things out.

[Telonius]

In short: don't try to mix probability and infinities without some serious math training because you'll get one, the other, or most likely both mixed up when trying to reason things out.

Which is just how the demons like it. Rumor has it that one named Maxwell is in charge of confusing mathematicians, physicists, and philosophy students who even consider that kind of problem.

[Clistenes]

That said then, does one actually need to be a demon to be a demon lord?

Could a cambion become a demon lord?
Could a half-fiend become a demon lord?
Could a tiefling (or similar planetouched) become a demon lord?

Alternatively, could a different type of outsider become a demon lord, or even a creature of a different type?

I think all of them could. There are Undead Demon Lords (Doserain), Fallen Angel Demon Lords (Adimarchus), and according to some versions, Kostchtchie was once a mortal who became a sort of lich-like creature.

Iuz is a Cambion who became a Demigod; I think becoming a Demon Lord would have been easier for him.

Kiaransalee went from Lich Drow to Demon Lady to Demigoddess.

In the Shackled City and Savage Tide the mortal PCs can become lords of a layer of the Abyss and Prince of Demons, respectively.

Of course, all those characters who become Demon Lord would eventually evolve into full demons.

[Deophaun]

That being said, since we're focused on probabilities, would it not be true given D&D cannon that: (1) the nature of the abyss is either finite or (2) the nature of the abyss makes it so the layers only close to the surface interact with the rest of the multiverse in a meaningful way.
We know several of the Abyss's layers are infinite. We do not know if the number of layers are infinite. The 666 layers that have been identified are those that link with the Plane of Infinite Portals. When you consider that any demon lord worth his salt isn't going to let random armies from other layers pass through his layer, it's a safe bet that the demonic hordes we know of are inadvertently protecting the rest of the multiverse from the demonic hordes we don't, assuming those unknown layers exist.

Further, the layers are not ordered according to "depth," but in order of discovery. We don't actually know depth... which has important implications for how the River Styx flows, as it supposedly connects all these things together in addition to the Nine Hells.


In fact, its so hard that even if you encounter a finite number of things that actually do have the characteristic, you still can't tell if the probability is non-zero! (because if there is 1 good demon in all of creation but an infinite number of demons total, the probability of a demon being good is still formally zero).
If you are going off of statistical samples alone, you are right. However, if you get a big enough sample of good demons and you run a regression analysis on the factors you suspect might have turned them good, you can find out if the cause is something related to demons and the infinite abyss (in which case, you get infinite good demon lords), or related to exposure to a finite resource (in which case, the set of good demon lords is finite).

It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination (and likely would not even be feasible), but it's possible.

[Psyren]

Note that in addition to uncontrolled layers, there are also beings which are explicitly not demon lords that maintain control over a layer or layers all the same. So there is even less basis for the infinite demon lords claim.


Indeed. In the Fiendish Codex, they even warn you in the chapter 'Trafficking With Demons', that you will have to give them a good reason not to kill you for the sake of feeling your guts squelch in their fingers. Graz'zt's my favorite demon prince because he's got the intelligence, wits, and most of all, patience to think beyond the fun in murdering you, though.

All of them are cunning really. Pazuzu for instance could probably stomp a level 1 paladin easily, but he takes far more delight in corrupting them.

Dagon is my favorite, as much for his Lovecraftian origins as the fact that he knows nearly everything there is to know about the Abyss. He had the foresight to abandon the obyriths' lost cause against the tanar'ri and has amassed huge amounts of wealth, power and knowledge for his choice. He's perhaps the greatest strategist/schemer in the Abyss.

[NichG]

If you are going off of statistical samples alone, you are right. However, if you get a big enough sample of good demons and you run a regression analysis on the factors you suspect might have turned them good, you can find out if the cause is something related to demons and the infinite abyss (in which case, you get infinite good demon lords), or related to exposure to a finite resource (in which case, the set of good demon lords is finite).

It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination (and likely would not even be feasible), but it's possible.

Yeah, at least this approach seems to allow you get finite uncertainties on the infinite/non-infinite question under certain weak assumptions (e.g. that your samples are independent), whereas direct sampling basically will always give you an infinite uncertainty.

Selection bias must be a huge problem though, assuming you aren't doing your measurements from within the Abyss itself. So here's the question - if you're doing your measurements from Sigil and there are both a set of finite sources turning demons good in the environs of Sigil as well as an infinite number of good demons in the Abyss, will your measurements be dominated by demons who were turned good by the external, finite sources or the infinite source in the Abyss?

Naively it seems that the infinite source should dominate, but it all depends on how hard it is to access the infinities of the Abyss. If for example we go by the exponential decay model, the number of demons that ever actually leave the Abyss is finite, even if there are an infinite number within (which is probably good for the multiverse).

[Deophaun]

You know, I just came up with an idea for a mad sociologist NPC...

[Manly Man]

All of them are cunning really. Pazuzu for instance could probably stomp a level 1 paladin easily, but he takes far more delight in corrupting them.

Dagon is my favorite, as much for his Lovecraftian origins as the fact that he knows nearly everything there is to know about the Abyss. He had the foresight to abandon the obyriths' lost cause against the tanar'ri and has amassed huge amounts of wealth, power and knowledge for his choice. He's perhaps the greatest strategist/schemer in the Abyss.

I kinda want to run a campaign where Graz'zt ends up taking the crown as Prince of Demons, and he's trying to convince Dagon to help him as he once did Demogorgon. Unfortunately, Dagon ends up bitter about the whole thing, as well as being seen as little more than a tool (a very great tool, but still a tool).

In come the PCs, either hired or threatened into working for Graz'zt to get Dagon on his side. If and when they end up meeting Dagon, they can either try to convince him to join forces with Graz'zt, or Dagon gives them a counter-offer to turn on Graz'zt.

Just another random idea. I've had a lot of ideas based on Abyssal encounters, if you haven't noticed.

[OldTrees1]

IIRC:
If the alignment section says "Always ___" then it means 99% of indivduals are that alignment.
Demons are "Always CE" so 1% of Demons are not CE
Assuming even distribution that would mean 3/8th of 1% of Demons are Good Aligned.
While this implies the existence of a Good Demon Lord, the infinite set of Demon Lords might be merely a subset of the 99% of demons that are CE.

[Morithias]

IIRC:
If the alignment section says "Always ___" then it means 99% of indivduals are that alignment.
Demons are "Always CE" so 1% of Demons are not CE
Assuming even distribution that would mean 3/8th of 1% of Demons are Good Aligned.
While this implies the existence of a Good Demon Lord, the infinite set of Demon Lords might be merely a subset of the 99% of demons that are CE.

Even if we go by the "666 layers"

666/100 = 6.66 non-chaotic evil Demon Lords.

6.66*3/8 = 2.4975 good aligned Demon Lords.

I think. My math might be off, I'm kind of sleepy.

[Yuki Akuma]

Even if we go by the "666 layers"

666/100 = 6.66 non-chaotic evil Demon Lords.

6.66*3/8 = 2.4975 good aligned Demon Lords.

I think. My math might be off, I'm kind of sleepy.

Not every layer is ruled by a Demon Lord, and not every Demon Lord rules only one layer.

So, no.

[Xuldarinar]

If one were to wish to actually build a Demon Lord, is there a good resource for doing so? Official content preferred of course. I am familiar with Deities and Demigods, but that is more for the creation of deities. If the best route would be to build a demon with a divine rank of 0, then that is certainly an option.

[Morithias]

If one were to wish to actually build a Demon Lord, is there a good resource for doing so? Official content preferred of course. I am familiar with Deities and Demigods, but that is more for the creation of deities. If the best route would be to build a demon with a divine rank of 0, then that is certainly an option.

Probably want to start with the Fiendish Codex 1.

[Xar Zarath]

If there is a good demon lord, we wont know because the developers have not felt like adding one yet. If there is one, anyone with the know-how can just homebrew it.
However demons like Fall-from-Grace and Eludecia are just examples that there can be good demons.(It is interesting to note that both are succubus, which are as close to mortals and their emotional state as you can get)

There probably is a good demon lord or at the very least one that is Chaotic Neutral. However this demon lord most likely is somewhere else in the planes, perhaps on one of the elemental planes or most likely Limbo because of his nature. It could try to not be Evil but it cant escape the Chaotic.
This demon lord may be called a demon lord because while it may not control a layer, it may have enough power to wrest one from the Abyss. But as earlier stated, the Abyss is inherently Chaotic and Evil. You can change the demon, you cant change the Abyss.:smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

Even if we go by the "666 layers"

666/100 = 6.66 non-chaotic evil Demon Lords.

6.66*3/8 = 2.4975 good aligned Demon Lords.

I think. My math might be off, I'm kind of sleepy.
Yay, no half-life 3 jokes!:smallamused:

Where did it say that Always X means 99% of the population is of X alignment? That's probably a poor estimation by the writers consifering they could deal with populations amounting to Freaking INFINITY.:smallwink:

[The Insanity]

If one were to wish to actually build a Demon Lord, is there a good resource for doing so? Official content preferred of course. I am familiar with Deities and Demigods, but that is more for the creation of deities. If the best route would be to build a demon with a divine rank of 0, then that is certainly an option.
Dragon Magazine #359 has rules on making new demon lords.