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Icwer
2007-01-04, 07:32 PM
Good day all!

I'm soon going to undertake the Test of High Sorcery and my DM pointed out a problem.
My Silvanesti elf is Lawful Neutral and therefore will probably enroll with the Red Robes. However, since elves don't agree with this they'll most certainly outcast me and I'll become a dark elf.
My question is: if I do become a dark elf, will I immediately change into a dark-skinned, white haired elf (just to be stereotypical) or am I just treated as an outcast?
I know I could just clean up my act a little and become Good, buy hey, where's the fun in that? :tongue:

Khantalas
2007-01-04, 07:38 PM
Drow don't exist in Dragonlance. You are simply an outcast.

silentknight
2007-01-04, 07:44 PM
Drow don't exist in my campaign either. A dark elf is an elf who is evil and/or has done something that causes them to be outcast from society.

Yeah, becoming an outcast elf in Dragonlance just means you are labeled "dark elf", you don't change into a drow.

Matthew
2007-01-04, 07:50 PM
No Drow in Dragon Lance. No Drow in my Homebrew world either, just Dark Elves in the sense of 'fallen' or 'Outcast'.

Khantalas
2007-01-04, 07:55 PM
My homebrew campaign has no elves. It has aelfans, less fey versions of elves. The closest thing to drow would be deep aelfans, as in they both live deep beneath the surface. Although deep aelfans live beneath the branches of tall trees, are albinos and good creatures.

Yes, good albinos.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-04, 08:07 PM
How... how would being an outcast suddenly change your species? This question makes no sense...

Icwer
2007-01-04, 08:14 PM
It could be a curse, heck if I know, I don't know much about the game surrounding this matter.

But thanks for the replies, now I am far less worried.:biggrin:

Thomas
2007-01-05, 04:16 AM
"Dark elf" is just a designation in Ansalon. It's not a race. You get dark silvanesti, dark qualinesti, dark kagonesti, and dark aquatic elves (I forget the two races' names; dark aquatic elves turn into sharks, which is the only difference any Dragonlance dark elf has from the base race's abilities).

Dalamar was a dark elf, but looked like any other elf.

Dhavaer
2007-01-05, 04:46 AM
Since we seem to be discussing elves in our own campaign:

My campaign world has elves, who are short, slim, like archery and nature and tend to be eco-terrorists, although most aren't terribly violent about this. There are also drow, who are tall, average to slim build, have a somewhat hive-like attitude towards each other and tend to engage in commerce, generally backed up by the ability to beat the snot out of you if you try and cheat them.
Elves and drow are completely different species, having only pointy ears, good senses and notable agility in common. They don't particularly like or dislike one another and have no mutual history, since elves like plains and forests while drow lived in tundra and cave networks.

Thomas
2007-01-05, 06:30 AM
Aldryami (Gloranthan elves) are the best elves. They're intelligent, humanoid plants. Mreli (brown elves) are deciduous, vronkali (green elves) are evergreens (and defend the forests during the winter, when the brown elves sleep), and embyli (yellow elves) are tropical. Embyli only have males, and breed with their dryad queens. (Dryads are sort of aldryami spirits; nymphs of the trees and plants.) Other aldryami include pixies, related to flowers, and runners, related to vines (they look something like small apes or monkeys). The depiction of aldryami has varied a lot, but basically they're human-shaped plants. I personally love the depictions of Aldryami warriors as bark-covered humanoids (http://www.warehouse23.com/img/covers/usw0002.jpg).

We don't talk about slorifing (red elves). They're related to ferns, live in swamps, are also called goblins, and are repulsive. Voralan (black elves) are mushroom elves, and even weirder than slorifing. Voralan aren't really Aldryami; slorifing probably are, but I don't imagine other Aldryami would like to own up to that.

Gloranthan non-human species are the best, in general. They're different, weird, inhuman, and detailed.

Athenodorus
2007-01-05, 12:20 PM
Holy derail batman! :)
In my campaign world, Elves had a vast magical empire, but destroyed themselves, and therefore are not available as player races...though I may bring in survivors as plot hooks at the high levels. I'm sure it's been done before a million times, though. :(

JadedDM
2007-01-05, 01:21 PM
and dark aquatic elves (I forget the two races' names; dark aquatic elves turn into sharks, which is the only difference any Dragonlance dark elf has from the base race's abilities).

Dargonesti = Dolphins
Dimernesti = Sea Otters

Thomas
2007-01-05, 04:01 PM
Dargonesti = Dolphins
Dimernesti = Sea Otters

Them's the ones. I think turning into a shark beats turning into an otter... advantage: Burns-- er, I mean, the bad guys.

silentknight
2007-01-05, 08:14 PM
"How... how would being an outcast suddenly change your species? This question makes no sense..."

Surviving the Test of High Sorcery can exact some very potent changes, curses, or magical altering of the mage in question. If I was the DM, I just might turn an elf into a drow as a result of the Test.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-05, 08:46 PM
Yeah, drow are a bit weird. A cool idea to use in a homebrew campaign is that dark elves are outcasts who ritually tattoo themselves completely black to signify something (significance pending).

JadedDM
2007-01-05, 09:29 PM
The confusion comes from the term "Dark Elf." Drow are known as dark elves. But there are no drow on Krynn.

On Krynn, a 'dark elf' is any elf (Qualinesti, Silvanesti, Kagonesti, Dimernesti, or Dargonesti) that has turned away from the 'light' (i.e., the Good alignment). They do not go under any kind of physical change. A dark elf looks just like any other elf. They are simply banished from their homeland.

A good example is Dalamar. He was a Silvanesti who joined the Black Robes and was therefore outcast from his people. He was still a Silvanesti and looked like one. His skin did not turn black, his hair did not turn white, his eyes did not turn red--and he certainly did not gain any special Underdark powers. He was just an exile, that's all.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-01-07, 07:16 AM
Does anybody else find it a bit ludicrous that you can become an outcast from Elvish civilisation for becoming (gasp) Neutral!

Is the Elvish High Council run by Zap Brannigan or something?

"What happened? Did you turn Neutral, or were you just born with a heart filled with Neutrality?"

Matthew
2007-01-07, 09:18 AM
*Laughs*

No, I think they are against the Red Robes rather than Neutral Alignment, if you see what I mean.

Leon
2007-01-07, 09:33 AM
Good day all!

I'm soon going to undertake the Test of High Sorcery and my DM pointed out a problem.
My Silvanesti elf is Lawful Neutral and therefore will probably enroll with the Red Robes. However, since elves don't agree with this they'll most certainly outcast me and I'll become a dark elf.
My question is: if I do become a dark elf, will I immediately change into a dark-skinned, white haired elf (just to be stereotypical) or am I just treated as an outcast?
I know I could just clean up my act a little and become Good, buy hey, where's the fun in that? :tongue:

All that'll happen is you'll get the cold shoulder from the rest of your kin and have to live life away from the glory of elven civilisation

@ Thomas: i like your elves


Last campain i ran the primary population were Dark Elves (not "drow") i used the Gary elves as the basis

Thomas
2007-01-08, 04:54 AM
Does anybody else find it a bit ludicrous that you can become an outcast from Elvish civilisation for becoming (gasp) Neutral!

Especially considering how Silvanesti are more Lawful Evil than anything. "Oh, look, Kagonesti. Let's enslave- I mean, let's offer them gainful employment as indentured serva- I mean, as retainers, cleaning our boots and wiping our asses at half a gold per month."

Heavy-handed, hackneyed portrayal of moral and societal hypocricy? Where?

Setra
2007-01-08, 05:12 AM
Just a thought, but while Dark Elves aren't Drow, I am fairly sure Drow do exist in Dragonlance.

Didn't Raistlin have to fight one as part of his Test?

I think I recall the group meeting another Drow somewhere...

Then again I've only read the books, and have no clue as to the actual campaign.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 05:57 AM
Just a thought, but while Dark Elves aren't Drow, I am fairly sure Drow do exist in Dragonlance.

Didn't Raistlin have to fight one as part of his Test?

I think I recall the group meeting another Drow somewhere...

Then again I've only read the books, and have no clue as to the actual campaign.

No, no, and nope.

Raistlin faced a dark elf. Not a drow. A dark elf, like Dalamar.

This is pretty clear and explicit. No drow in Krynn.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 05:59 AM
There is the odd random occurrence. I think the Banshee in Pax Tharkas might also be described as a Drow. Probably a conflation of terms, but other theories suggest Planar Travellers. What seems certain is that Drow are not native to Dragon Lance.

Setra
2007-01-08, 07:16 AM
No, no, and nope.

Raistlin faced a dark elf. Not a drow. A dark elf, like Dalamar.

This is pretty clear and explicit. No drow in Krynn.

Odd... oh well..

You sure he faced a Dark Elf though? I vaguely remember something about 'a deadly scream' or something to that extent, Argh I really need to find my copy of Dragons of Autumn Twilight so I can check. Too bad my brother kidnapped it.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 07:49 AM
According to Wikipedia:

Drow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drow#Drow_in_other_campaign_settings)

Dark Elves in Dragonlance are occasionally (and no doubt accidently) conflated with Drow (in the familiar sense) in published material.

Setra
2007-01-08, 08:24 AM
Alrighty then.

Though now I wonder where I remember hearing about 'a deadly scream' in Dragonlance.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 08:42 AM
Pax Tharkas, I believe. After the party pass into the lower fortress they have to face a Banshee.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 09:37 AM
Hate to play devils advocate...but the Companions DO face an undead Drow in Pax Tharkas (i find this very amusing considering i finished the book LAST NIGHT). Raistlin yells 'Dark Elf' and then from that point on the writer as well as the Companions refer to it as a Drow. Actually, they face it in Sla-Mora (or something like that, don't have the book with me), the secret tunnel going into Pax Tharkas, right after Tanis gets Wrymslayer.
jp

Matthew
2007-01-08, 09:53 AM
Yes, that's what we are saying. However, it is not clear that Drow refers to anything other than a synonym for Dark Elf [or Fallen Elf]. There is no direct description of a Drow in the core Dragon Lance material, as far as I am aware. However, elsewhere Drow and Dark Elves are described in the more widely understood sense (White Hair, Black Skin). These are generally considered contradictory and errors on the part of the authors. Alternatively, it has been suggested that such instances are Planar Travellers.
There are mistakes, Dalamar is not dark skinned in the core material, but ancillary texts confuse his description as a Dark Elf as meaning Drow.

The canon stance is that there are no Drow in Dragon Lance.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-08, 09:54 AM
Good day all!

I'm soon going to undertake the Test of High Sorcery and my DM pointed out a problem.
My Silvanesti elf is Lawful Neutral and therefore will probably enroll with the Red Robes. However, since elves don't agree with this they'll most certainly outcast me and I'll become a dark elf.
My question is: if I do become a dark elf, will I immediately change into a dark-skinned, white haired elf (just to be stereotypical) or am I just treated as an outcast?
I know I could just clean up my act a little and become Good, buy hey, where's the fun in that? :tongue:

Yeah, I agree, where's the fun in becoming Good? I say dirty up your act a bit, become Evil, join the Black Robes and then murder your kin in their sleep.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-08, 10:16 AM
Though now I wonder where I remember hearing about 'a deadly scream' in Dragonlance.
That'd probably be from a Banshee. IIRC, banshees are the spirits of dark elves.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 10:25 AM
Mathew - Are you saying that the authors of Dragonlance are in error for saying that a dark elf in their book is a Drow, just because it dosen't meet the specifics of the "archetypical" drow from other campaign settings? I don't think this is what you're saying...I think I'm misinterpreting your post.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 10:34 AM
Dragon Lance has multiple authors, which led to a number of inconsistancies. One of these is that although the majority of core material considers Drow to be only a synonym for Dark Elf [Fallen Elf], some material suggests that these are in fact Drow in the more usual sense [Black Skin, White Hair]. This material is in error, as it contradicts the 'official' stance.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 10:37 AM
There is the odd random occurrence. I think the Banshee in Pax Tharkas might also be described as a Drow. Probably a conflation of terms, but other theories suggest Planar Travellers. What seems certain is that Drow are not native to Dragon Lance.

A banshee would almost by definition be a dark elf, but that's a bit of a conflation in itself, since "dark elf" implies having undergone the ritual; the banshee may have died before that happened.


Incidentally, being a Faerūn fan, I make a distinction between dark elf and drow there, too. Ilythiiri (and some denizens of other elven nations, too) were dark elves, once favored of Aurashnee, darkly beautiful and exotic in appearance (I figure black or dark hair, dusky skin, brown eyes?). After Ilythiir's atrocities and war crimes and use of Elven High Magic as a terrible weapon, the other elves called upon the Seldarine and finally had all the dark elves cast out, turned into drow (the term has some. Aurashnee had been cast out of the Seldarine some ten, twenty thousand years earlier, and had become Lolth, and found the drow again when they ended up in the Underdark (or the other way around). "Drow" comes from "dhaerow," which meant... something or other. An insult or curse of some sort applied to the Ilythiiri. I'd have to brush up on my Crown Wars to say.

So basically the distinction between dark elf and drow is a line in time; dark elves wouldn't have had the drow abilities (spell resistance, spell-like abilities, improved darkvision), and didn't have ebony skin and white or silver hair.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 11:14 AM
OK - lets see if I understand you. So you are saying that in Dragonlance (regardless of author) it was/is understood that a "Drow" is simply another word for Dark Elf, not the archetypical Drow (black skin/white hair). Now, since the achetypical (black skin/white hair) Drow doesn't exist in Krynn, then Drow don't exist on Krynn at all, only Dark Elves (or fallen elves) exist?

Thomas
2007-01-08, 11:28 AM
OK - lets see if I understand you. So you are saying that in Dragonlance (regardless of author) it was/is understood that a "Drow" is simply another word for Dark Elf, not the archetypical Drow (black skin/white hair). Now, since the achetypical (black skin/white hair) Drow doesn't exist in Krynn, then Drow don't exist on Krynn at all, only Dark Elves (or fallen elves) exist?

Yes, with the additional note that some authors get confused and think Krynn has SRD-style drow, which creates more confusion.

I can't abide multiple-author settings, myself. It's all a huge bunch of confusion about what's "canon." It's hard enough trying to make sense and consistency of published RPG settings with different authors.

Matthew
2007-01-08, 11:37 AM
OK - lets see if I understand you. So you are saying that in Dragonlance (regardless of author) it was/is understood that a "Drow" is simply another word for Dark Elf, not the archetypical Drow (black skin/white hair). Now, since the achetypical (black skin/white hair) Drow doesn't exist in Krynn, then Drow don't exist on Krynn at all, only Dark Elves (or fallen elves) exist?

That's pretty much it, as Thomas says the terms Dark Elf and Drow can stand for Fallen Elf or the Black Skinned and White Haired type. The Dragon Lance license is owned by Sovereign Press at the moment and their stance (which has been the 'official stance all along) is that Black Skinned and White Haired Drow are not native to Krynn, though Planar Travellers are a possiblity.

Sovereign Press Dragon Lance Home Page (http://www.dragonlance.com/)

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 12:22 PM
Hate to play devils advocate...but the Companions DO face an undead Drow in Pax Tharkas (i find this very amusing considering i finished the book LAST NIGHT). Raistlin yells 'Dark Elf' and then from that point on the writer as well as the Companions refer to it as a Drow. Actually, they face it in Sla-Mora (or something like that, don't have the book with me), the secret tunnel going into Pax Tharkas, right after Tanis gets Wrymslayer.
jp

I just checked it; it's in the chain room of Pax Tharkas, and there is one reference to her being a "drow", but no description beyond "coldly beautiful"; to me, that implies pale, more than the usual "black skin, white hair" that you get from drow. I don't have my DL-series reprints, but all of the game material for Dragonlance (except for DLS4 - Wild Elves) was insistent that there were no drow on Krynn. Wild Elves was an exception because of some Spelljamming drow who crashed in Southern Ergoth.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 12:29 PM
Spelljamming drow who crashed in Southern Ergoth.

Yay for Spelljamming!

Is planar travel even an option? My Krynnian metaphysics is rusty, but is the place "hooked up" properly to the "multiverse" ? They sort of seem self-contained, as far as gods go (Paladine and Takhisis aren't just aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat, but apparently two different deities who just happen to be just like the other two). I know Athas isn't linked to the other planes like Faerūn or Oerth are - it only has connections to the four main Elemental Planes, and had some weird set-up with the Near Ethereal... (Same as Ravenloft, maybe? Entering Ravenloft is basically a one-way trip, unless the Dark Powers let you escape - or kick you out.)

Matthew
2007-01-08, 12:33 PM
It used to be, but the whole craptacular Fourth Age thing shut it down. There were comments in Planescape Material about how Krynn was no longer accessible. No idea how it stands now.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 12:35 PM
It used to be, but the whole craptacular Fourth Age thing shut it down. There were comments in Planescape Material about how Krynn was no longer accessible. No idea how it stands now.

I thought that passed? Takhisis in disguise "stole" Krynn, separating it from other planes and other gods, blah blah, and eventually it all got fixed?

Wouldn't know; I refuse to read anything beyond the first two trilogies (except Soulforge etc., because I love Raistlin), so all my knowledge of events following those books are from the 3rd ed. campaign setting book.

JadedDM
2007-01-08, 12:39 PM
Dragons of Autumn Twilight does use the term 'drow' to refer to the banshee, however it states in the Annotated Chronicles that there are no drow on Krynn. In this case, the term 'drow' is just another synonym for 'outcast elf.'

It has been stated in the past by official sources that drow, psionics, orcs, and halflings just don't exist in Dragonlance.

JadedDM
2007-01-08, 12:41 PM
As for the planes, it should be noted that Tracey Hickman never liked the idea of Krynn being connected to other worlds. When the world was recovered from Takhisis after she stole it, the gods moved it elsewhere. Nobody is sure where, but it did vanish from Krynnspace. The gods did this to make sure that nobody ever messes with the world again, and that no more outsiders (like the dragon overlords) can find it. I suspect this was also done in part of Hickman's dislike of the AD&D 'multi-verse.'

Matthew
2007-01-08, 12:43 PM
Sounds probable. I'm just going on some Planescape stuff. I read the original trilogy and the Twins trilogy, also a number of other ancillary novels (Kendermore, *shudder*, and so on). I was warned off Dragons of Summer Flame and only read enough of the short stories published in Dragon to know I wasn't going to like the Fourth Age (Third Age?) repackaging. There's probably a FAQ out there somewhere.

JadedDM
2007-01-08, 12:46 PM
Actually, Chronicles and Legends were part of the Fourth Age (the age of Despair). The Fifth Age is the Age of Mortals, and that's post-Dragons of Summer Flame (after the Chaos War/Second Cataclysm). That's when the game was switched over from 2nd Edition to SAGA.

The War of the Souls was when the game then switched once more from SAGA to 3E. Although it's still considered the Fifth Age, it's really more like an unofficial sixth age (since the gods are back, you can't rightly call it the Age of Mortals).

Matthew
2007-01-08, 12:48 PM
That's the one, Fifth Age. I thought Fourth didn't sound right.

Ah well, I am sure the Spell Jamming Elven Imperial Navy will report any sightings of Krynn.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 01:45 PM
Sorry, would have responded earlier but I went to lunch. Good to know I got it straight now. See, I'm not as dumb as I look. Just out of curiousity, Dragonlance was published well before FR and Eberron. The only thing prior was Greyhawk, which really wasn't so much a setting if I recall. When did "Drow" turn into the black skinned/white haired elves? Please don't tell me it started with Salvatore and the nameless renegade abonimation.

jp

edit - and thanks for being so polite while explaining that to me. One more reason I love these boards...ignorance isn't made fun of - its corrected.

Thomas
2007-01-08, 02:09 PM
edit - and thanks for being so polite while explaining that to me. One more reason I love these boards...ignorance isn't made fun of - its corrected.

Don't get your standards set so high... we can still be plenty snarky. (Although usually it's two or more people who're all convinced they know what's what, I guess.)

And drow were around in Greyhawk. They're older than Dragonlance.

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 02:12 PM
Oh yeah...welll......I can be snarky too............................................... .................................................. ......................................jerk.

Greyhawk huh? And were these Fallen Elves or the Underdark Elves?

Thomas
2007-01-08, 02:16 PM
Underdark elves. I don't know about their history on Oerth. As far as I know, they gained a real "racial identity" in Faerūn, with the extensive, epic story (Aurashnee, Lolth, Ilythiir, Crown Wars, etc.) and so on. I've never played Greyhawk, and don't own any old Greyhawk books (and there's no such thing as a new Greyhawk book), so I don't know about their Oerthian history.

JadedDM
2007-01-08, 02:22 PM
From Wikipedia:

The drow, as they appear in fantasy fiction and games, were created by Gary Gygax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax), and appeared in the 1979 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Dungeons_%26_Dragons) module, Hall of the Fire Giant King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_of_the_Fire_Giant_King). They were first mentioned in the Dungeons & Dragons game in the 1st Edition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons) 1977 Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Manual) under "Elf." They made their first statistical appearance in G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Giants) (later G1-2-3 Against the Giants) (1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978)) by Gary Gygax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax). The story continued in modules D1 Descent into the Depths of the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_into_the_Depths_of_the_Earth), D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, D3 Vault of the Drow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_of_the_Drow), and Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_Demonweb_Pits) each of which expanded on drow culture. The first D&D manual that the drow appeared in was the original Fiend Folio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiend_Folio).

The J Pizzel
2007-01-08, 02:27 PM
I love this place.

Devils_Advocate
2007-01-08, 06:10 PM
Also from Wikipedia:


In the world of Greyhawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk), the drow were driven underground by their surface-dwelling relatives because of ideological differences. There they eventually adapted to their surroundings, especially by attracting the attention of the goddess Lolth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolth), Queen of Spiders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider). The center of drow civilization is the subterreanean city Erelhei-Cinlu (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Erelhei-Cinlu&action=edit), and its surrounding Vault, commonly called the Vault of the Drow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_of_the_Drow).

I'm sure there's some material somewhere that discusses their Greyhawk history in more detail, though I wouldn't know where to look for it.

Scorpina
2007-01-08, 07:07 PM
"Drow" comes from "dhaerow," which meant... something or other.

'Tis elven for 'traitor' appropriately enough.

Hallavast
2007-01-08, 07:35 PM
Just a thought, but while Dark Elves aren't Drow, I am fairly sure Drow do exist in Dragonlance.

Didn't Raistlin have to fight one as part of his Test?

I think I recall the group meeting another Drow somewhere...

Then again I've only read the books, and have no clue as to the actual campaign.
Yes, sort of. They're called holdrefolk. They have dark brown skin (not jet black) and they're hair is also dark. They're a subterranean race of elves that may or may not be extinct. They're from first ed. Dragonlance, so It's kinda unclear. They're not exactly Drow, and they aren't evil. And Raistlin didn't fight one. he fought a regular dark elf.

What I find particularly stupid is the fact that you can't be a good aligned illusionist and join the tower of high sorcery. Also, if the aforementioned Lawful Neutral Silvanesti happens to be an abjurer or a diviner, there will be similar trouble.

It's all moot anyway, because being a dark elf means practically nothing now. The elves were kicked out of Silvanesti by Minotaurs, and the qualinesti have left qualinesti as well.

JadedDM
2007-01-08, 07:56 PM
Yes, sort of. They're called holdrefolk. They have dark brown skin (not jet black) and they're hair is also dark. They're a subterranean race of elves that may or may not be extinct.

My own sources call them Huldrefolk. They are described more as faeries, standing 1-4 feet tall with naked gray-skin. They have bald heads, large eyes, and no ears and three fingers on each hand. If anything, they look more like Roswell Greys than elves.


It's all moot anyway, because being a dark elf means practically nothing now. The elves were kicked out of Silvanesti by Minotaurs, and the qualinesti have left qualinesti as well.

Hey...that's a good point. I hadn't considered the full ramifications of that. I gotta wonder how many dark elves are all smug about that now. Sour grapes and all. "Well, I'm glad I left the homelands!"

MrNexx
2007-01-08, 07:58 PM
Dragonlance never cleanly meshed with the rules for D&D... Minotaurs were too attractive a PC race, but in many ways too powerful; the attempt to align the Robes with schools of magic was hideous (no one but white robes got abjuration. White robes won a LOT of mage duels, since no one could cast Globes of Invulnerability but them). They tried level caps, but those just got bizarre. It was, in many ways, primarily a world where novels could be written, with games coming second to "cool stuff we can tell them about."

Yes, I know about the adventures... but much of the cool stuff was not intended for PC use during adventures.

Ambrogino
2007-01-09, 05:29 AM
I was warned off Dragons of Summer Flame and only read enough of the short stories published in Dragon to know I wasn't going to like the Fourth Age (Third Age?) repackaging.

Personally I rate Summer Flame as the only book worth reading other than Legends and Chronicles. I don't like where it left the campaign world afterwards, but it's actually better written than Autumn Twilight IMO. It's at least the original authors using their characters, rather than anyone TSR could persuade to write a book with them.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-09, 07:51 AM
Dragonlance never cleanly meshed with the rules for D&D... Minotaurs were too attractive a PC race, but in many ways too powerful; the attempt to align the Robes with schools of magic was hideous (no one but white robes got abjuration. White robes won a LOT of mage duels, since no one could cast Globes of Invulnerability but them). They tried level caps, but those just got bizarre. It was, in many ways, primarily a world where novels could be written, with games coming second to "cool stuff we can tell them about."

Yes, I know about the adventures... but much of the cool stuff was not intended for PC use during adventures.

I'm currently in a Dragonlance game, and I think it's going quite well. The DM outlawed Minotaurs as a PC race, for one. I'm rather new to D&D in general though, so I'll have to take your word about the rest of it.

Also, our wizard never casts Globes of Invulnerability. 'cause he's a Black Robe.

MrNexx
2007-01-09, 08:58 AM
I'm currently in a Dragonlance game, and I think it's going quite well. The DM outlawed Minotaurs as a PC race, for one. I'm rather new to D&D in general though, so I'll have to take your word about the rest of it.

Also, our wizard never casts Globes of Invulnerability. 'cause he's a Black Robe.

Is it a 1st or 2nd edition game? That's what I was referring to; that's why I used past tense and references to level caps.