Character levels in relation to the world

[Michellus]

Okay the title isn't exactly my finest piece of work. But **** it. I tried. Ill try to explain my question as best as i can.

Basically your character has a certain level. Usually between 1 and infinity. But if you had to describe a certain character level with say examples of how powerfull and famous they are in comparison to the rest of the world. How would you go about it?

For example. A character from lvl 1 to 5 could be a decent to good at what he does but they aren't incredible. While a lvl 20 character is untouchable by regular people. Even with poor bab you can still pimp slap a commoner to death.

Myself i kinda think of it like this.

1-5 semi regular people. their skills are note worthy but not incredible. a militia will be able to subdue them. the militia might get a few casualties but hey. You win some you lose some.

6-11 powerfull people. they are powerfull and most likely will be able to take down a large militia and taking one of these characters down is going to be a bitch.

12+ legendary people. Iirc legend lore now works on you so you are basically someone with legendary power. A 12+ character will decimate any militia it faces and will probably do so with ease.

20+ ????

So according to this would achilles be a lvl 12+ person or more along the lines of 6-11.

I tried some searching on the interwebs and came up with zilch. So i figured id start a discussion and see what you guys think. If things are unclear feel free to ask.

[Red Fel]

I'm kind of confused as to what your actual question is.

[Michellus]

Let me try to rephrase. If you had to explain what a character of a certain level is like. How would you do it? And what kind of examples would you use. How high is their power level so to speak and how different is that from the standard.

[Red Fel]

So, just give examples of each level? I think you've pretty much gotten that covered.

Besides, the class they take is also fairly reflective of power, regardless of level. Thus, a level 15 character can still be beaten by a level 5 character, if the former is an Aristocrat and the latter is a Wizard.

Even if we put NPC classes out of the way, there is a world of difference between Tiers. A level 15 Tier 3-4 class could still be dwarfed by a reasonably-optimized level 10-ish Tier 1 class.

Level isn't always an accurate descriptor of power, is what I think I'm saying.

[Michellus]

Would it be easier to seperate them by spell casters and non spell casters?

For example i read somewhere on this forum that a lvl 20ish caster should be able to raze a plane to the ground within hours. (no idea how your supposed to do that but still.) Wouldnt that make you more like a demigod? Where as a lvl 20 fighter might be an unparalelled swordsman.

[IronFist]

Ahem. (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2)

[Segev]

I think he's basically looking for a rough estimate of how "famous" a character might be based on his level.

Or, perhaps, he's really looking for a rating of...well, what "percentile of powerfulness" you are, compared to the whole world.


In the last D&D campaign I ran successfully, I actually specified that pretty much all adults were 3rd level or higher. Kids were level 1 and those on the cusp of adulthood were firmly into level 2. So in that setting, the answer to the OP's question (assuming I understand it) is that a level 3 character is nothing special, pretty average. Level 4s are just more experienced but also nothing to write home about.

In a more standard game, where "level 1 commoner" is a very common thing for an adult to be, I'd say that a level 2-3 character is "the best in his village," and that level 3 is the minimum in most cities for you to be a "tough guy." Guard captains should be level 3-4, and the city-wide heroes and villains, the guys with reputations or who don't need a reputation because most thinsg in the city won't mess with them 1:1 or even in small groups should be at least level 5.

Note that, at level 5, the spellcasters start to really take off in power. This is where you go from "street magician" to "artillery" and "wielder of powers unmatched (by regular folks)."

Level 9-11 characters are likely minor legends even in the largest cities. Even if there are multiple such minor legends in a region, they are still notable. The only reason to be cautious of other groups at this point is the fact that you're likely to encounter others of your approximate level due to it becoming a rarified world. Out in casual travel about town, a level 9-11 character is likely the top dog in any encounter with random passers-by. This is the level where even the "tough guy" is mugging the monster if he tries to follow you down a dark alley and, well, mug you.

As you get to levels 13 and 15, you're dripping with so many magic items that your gear could buy small cities. There are still bigger fish out there, but you're a big fish even if you're not in a small pond. If you're not legendary, it's because you are far from anywhere you've done anything notable or because you've worked to keep your reputation quiet. At this point, you will likely know that you're more powerful than anybody you've not heard of or that you're not deliberately seeking out. 90% of even those who seek you out to prove themselves or whatever are going to be minor challenges, barring them having some really hefty circumstances in their favor.

Level 15+ people can walk into just about any town they want and have something approaching diplomatic immunity, simply because, unless it's a big enough or lucky enough city to have their own level 15+ guardians, the biggest fish in that pond won't be able to stop you. Your mere presence is a matter of realpolitik; and they'll be seeking to convince you to abide willingly by their laws. In larger cities, you're not quite so powerful that you can just ignore them, but you ARE enough of a threat that they will give you leeway. They don't WANT to have a massive knock-down battle between you and the full-on party of their best-of-the-best (usually levels 7-11 or so) that it would take to inconvenience you, but you should be aware that if you become too much of a problem, they CAN inconvenience you. So cooperating is in your interest, just as letting you have some leeway is in theirs.

If you pass level 17, it's pretty much guaranteed that only serious monsters and evil overlords steeped in personal power are on your level. You're a walking, talking nuclear weapon, and while those who trust you and are your friends find this just fine, the nature of such powerful beings is to be a bit of a trouble magnet, and the troubles you brush off could decimate medium-sized cities.

So they tend to be on eggshells around you.

If they recognize you, expect invitations to the rulers' place or a firm (but likely polite) request that you leave post-haste. You will get celebrity treatment from some, and awed fear from others.

And anybody who stands up to you at this point is somebody you likely should be polite to; even if they're bluffing, they are demonstrating massive courage just trying. Or massive foolishness; but you can always hope. In any event, at this point, if they're standing up to you, it's unusual enough to warrant some investigation rather than merely obliterating them. But at the same time, you can be pretty sure that obliteration is in their future if they cross you. Just be cautious so you don't fall prey to another at your power level trying to lull you into a false sense of security.

[danzibr]

1-5 semi regular people. their skills are note worthy but not incredible. a militia will be able to subdue them. the militia might get a few casualties but hey. You win some you lose some.

6-11 powerfull people. they are powerfull and most likely will be able to take down a large militia and taking one of these characters down is going to be a bitch.

12+ legendary people. Iirc legend lore now works on you so you are basically someone with legendary power. A 12+ character will decimate any militia it faces and will probably do so with ease.

20+ ????
I'd have to disagree with this. Do you know about E6?

A level 5 person is *not* a semi-regular person. Level 1 is a regular person, level 2 would be some guard or something with fighting experience. Level 3 would be like the captain of the watch.

When you get up to level 5, you're probably a local legend. Probably not much more than local. Then as you travel the world and solve big problems/get phat legendary treasure/etc. you gain levels and fame.

And by the time you're level 20... you have world-shattering power.

[Ortesk]

Would it be easier to seperate them by spell casters and non spell casters?

For example i read somewhere on this forum that a lvl 20ish caster should be able to raze a plane to the ground within hours. (no idea how your supposed to do that but still.) Wouldnt that make you more like a demigod? Where as a lvl 20 fighter might be an unparalelled swordsman.

Remember that 90% the world is level 1


To a commoner a level 20 anything is a demi god, a wizard would be seen as a god and could gain worship. A letel 20 swordsman is Botasi the man slayer, He is known across the country, if not the world, as the deadliest swordsman ever seen. People would shake and run when he unsheathed his blade

[Michellus]

Thank you for the write up Segev. That was what i wanted to know. Although i would like to ask. Would your write up apply to casters mainly or is this also applicable to non casting classes? For example a 20 fighter could be killed by a lvl 15 caster.

Also thank you for the link that is actually a quite interesting. I will read it over when i am not at work.

Edit: while i was writing this my question was answered :)

Also what is E6?

[Aasimar]

I think only the very top tier 'normals' ever reach level 5. That's the grizzled captain of the guard who was probably a former soldier who served with distinction, etc. The late middle age merchant who has travelled far and wide in his time and knows a little of everything and every place.

Higher than that, you probably have only career adventurers, active leaders of large armies who take a personal hand in things or other exceptional people who just don't ever want to settle down and say 'this is good enough'.

Anyone above level 5 would be the best at what they do in any rural area and among the elite population in even a very dense urban area.

People above level 10 are very rare, but still occur from time to time, especially in large cities or in areas where conflict is common and only the tough survive for long. They are effectively superheroes from the perspective of the normal folk.

Above level 15, you are talking about only a couple of handfuls of people active in the entire world at any given time, though the number is slightly increased by the fact that this is where you really start seeing the ability to cheat death, so the people who do make it there tend to persist longer than average.

Epic is the sort of thing that only very few people each generation manage, which is why planar adventures suit them, as that's the only arena where they will find true challenges to their skill and peers with which to mingle.

For especially long lived races, elves, dwarves, etc. You can assume a slightly higher level for each of those categories, as each person has more time to hone whatever potential they do have, but the basic schema stands.

[Zeb]

Just what I use

Level 1: Initiates, solders, apprentices, footpads, etc.

Level 3: Sergeants, mage, priest or any name for someone in their profession with a little experience.

Level 5: At this point you call them heroes or something of at least local fame, captains, master of...

Level 6-9: Give them regional titles or something around national renown. Jefferoy the Red, Marshal of the East, the Nightingale etc.

Level 10: They now qualify as legendary for the legend lore spell, so start peaking of them in relation to legends.

Level 13: At this point they are comparable to a small world power, or can be a planeswalker/traveler

At Level 15 and above they are almost epic and generally can have renown as BigDamnHeros or the equivalent in most places but the largest planar metropolises

Of course all of this is relative to the setting and what the characters have done to get these levels.

The E6 variant is based on the idea that most heroes are at their peak/can be represented at level 6.

Edit: Ninja'ed and sword-saged.

[Segev]

Thank you for the write up Segev. That was what i wanted to know. Although i would like to ask. Would your write up apply to casters mainly or is this also applicable to non casting classes? For example a 20 fighter could be killed by a lvl 15 caster.

Mostly casters (hence my focus on odd levels, as that's when prepped casters typically get new spell levels), but it holds roughly true for anybody. Yes, a level 20 fighter probably does need to worry more about a level 15 caster than a level 17 caster would a level 15 caster, but in a rough vacuum and to first-order approximation, even the level 20 fighter is going to be so mighty that his mere presence will make all political powers that be nervous, and will be strong enough that only the level of caution it takes to not foolishly let some chump get the jump on you is what's necessary to be on the secure end of any encounter.

(Fighters, too, have level 20 WBL, and can have items to at the least serve as emergency "get out of dodge" effects if they discover the punk kid trying to start something is a level 16 sorcerer with just the right fighter-killing load-out.)

[Michellus]

But adventuring parties generally tend to be arround the same level. For example in our group (currently 6 players 1 dm) we have been playing regularly for years. I joined a bit later but some members of the group started at level 1 and now we are lvl 20. But if you look at such a group. Their combined power would be astronomical. But is it likely that there are more groups like ours on the material plane with the same kind of astronomical power? Or is such a high level party such a rare occurance that we are the only ones? Are there any guidelines on this or is this mostly DM fiat?

Wouldn't deties start interfering with such a group at some point because they could drastically change the world?

Also when you become higher level wouldn't you become less known on the material plane because most of the stuff you do will generally involve planar travel?

[TuggyNE]

You might be interested in this (rather lengthy) examination of real-world legendary/fictional characters, and their probable approximate power level.

TL/DR: Very few characters are even as high as level 20, and a fair chunk of "epic heroes of folk tales" are level 11 or lower. And these are the obviously supernatural/paranormal/larger than life ones, too.

This doesn't necessarily directly translate into a campaign world, but it's a good reminder of the usual trends of human imagination; it's actually kind of hard to really picture and grasp the kinds of awe-inspiring power that a level 20 character has in 3.x.

[Emperor Tippy]

90% of the world has no PC levels.

Likewise 90% of the world is not going to reach ECL 5.

Those two groups aren't one and the same but there is overlap.

A level 1 fighter with 14 Con has 12 HP. An average commoner (level 1, 10 Con) has 4 HP. The level 1 fighter is already better than the vast majority of the population in combat. This isn't "new recruit" level it's "son of the local lord who has been intensively trained in the arts of war pretty much since he could walk and talk".

Per the DMG a small town of one to two thousand people is going to have a single level 8 fighter at best with the average small town having a single level 4 or 5 fighter. The best small town is going to have one level 8 fighter, two level 4 fighters, four level 2 fighters, and eight level 1 fighters. This is the town where a renowned hero has retired and set up a fighting academy or the like.

---
Level 1 PC class: Highly skilled or intensively schooled but likely lacking in real world experience.

Level 3 PC class: As before except with anything from a year to a decade of experience.

Level 5 PC class: As before except either very exceptional, exceptional circumstances are in play, or two decades or more of experience. Not a legend or anything but generally a local hero, often the local lord who has been rewarded for a lifetime of good service to a greater lord.

Level 8 PC class: Part of the King's personal guard or the like. Generally those with exceptional natural talent in their chosen field, a fair amount of luck, and helpful circumstances.

Level 10 PC class: Legend. This is where you have made it into the bards stories that will be sung not just months or years later but long after you are dead and your bones are dust. Sorcerer's bind entire armies of elemental's and outsiders to serve them, Necromancer's can field whole bands of undead, Fighter's single handedly slaughter whole Orc bands, Cleric's can bring the dead to life, kill with a single touch, and speak directly to their god.

Level 13 PC class: Beyond merely a legend. Often times the most powerful single individual in an entire kingdom. Wizards can be anywhere in the great wheel in 12 seconds (Plane Shift + Greater Teleport) or command the very weather over an entire city. Clerics can kill a legion of unbelievers with but a single word. A fighter can pick up a weapon that he has never heard of in his life before and wield in better than most masters. A Bard can regularly perform pieces of music so enthralling that even deities sit up and take notice or make even an unfriendly crowd walk away as the bards friends, or with a few minutes of work turn even a hostile enemy into a friend.

Level 15 PC class: Generally beyond the concerns of individual kingdoms. Their enemies threaten the survival or freedom of the entire world. Sorcerer's bind and enslave the general's of hell's armies. Wizard's can turn themselves into living iron and slaughter the armies of entire nations with impunity, burn entire armies to ash, bring winter across an entire nation in the middle of summer, conquer aging, bend time, and turn you into a dragon with a finger snap. A Fighter can take the field against twenty five thousand foes and walk off two days later without a scratch on him and none of his foes alive or fight the champions of the Abyss in single combat and emerge victorious. A Bard can calm a raging enemy with but a few words and turn him into a fanatical follower with but a short conversation, or he can turn an entire legion in to a fanatical mob that will willingly die for the Bard.

Level 18 PC Class: Demigods. World spanning empires can be single handedly conquered in days. Entire planes with whatever laws of reality the individual desires can be created. Death is of no concern. Continent spanning cities made of Mithril and sculpted so perfectly that even the gods weep at the beauty can be brought into existence with a finger snap.

Level 21+ PC class: Limitations are for lesser beings. There is no feat that can not be performed, no task that can not be completed, no enemy that can not be defeated. Stories exist of Fighter's who have held a single passage against unending demonic hordes for ten thousand years without even a minutes rest, and they are true.

[Ortesk]

90% of the world has no PC levels.

Likewise 90% of the world is not going to reach ECL 5.

Those two groups aren't one and the same but there is overlap.

A level 1 fighter with 14 Con has 12 HP. An average commoner (level 1, 10 Con) has 4 HP. The level 1 fighter is already better than the vast majority of the population in combat. This isn't "new recruit" level it's "son of the local lord who has been intensively trained in the arts of war pretty much since he could walk and talk".

Per the DMG a small town of one to two thousand people is going to have a single level 8 fighter at best with the average small town having a single level 4 or 5 fighter. The best small town is going to have one level 8 fighter, two level 4 fighters, four level 2 fighters, and eight level 1 fighters. This is the town where a renowned hero has retired and set up a fighting academy or the like.

---
Level 1 PC class: Highly skilled or intensively schooled but likely lacking in real world experience.

Level 3 PC class: As before except with anything from a year to a decade of experience.

Level 5 PC class: As before except either very exceptional, exceptional circumstances are in play, or two decades or more of experience. Not a legend or anything but generally a local hero, often the local lord who has been rewarded for a lifetime of good service to a greater lord.

Level 8 PC class: Part of the King's personal guard or the like. Generally those with exceptional natural talent in their chosen field, a fair amount of luck, and helpful circumstances.

Level 10 PC class: Legend. This is where you have made it into the bards stories that will be sung not just months or years later but long after you are dead and your bones are dust. Sorcerer's bind entire armies of elemental's and outsiders to serve them, Necromancer's can field whole bands of undead, Fighter's single handedly slaughter whole Orc bands, Cleric's can bring the dead to life, kill with a single touch, and speak directly to their god.

Level 13 PC class: Beyond merely a legend. Often times the most powerful single individual in an entire kingdom. Wizards can be anywhere in the great wheel in 12 seconds (Plane Shift + Greater Teleport) or command the very weather over an entire city. Clerics can kill a legion of unbelievers with but a single word. A fighter can pick up a weapon that he has never heard of in his life before and wield in better than most masters. A Bard can regularly perform pieces of music so enthralling that even deities sit up and take notice or make even an unfriendly crowd walk away as the bards friends, or with a few minutes of work turn even a hostile enemy into a friend.

Level 15 PC class: Generally beyond the concerns of individual kingdoms. Their enemies threaten the survival or freedom of the entire world. Sorcerer's bind and enslave the general's of hell's armies. Wizard's can turn themselves into living iron and slaughter the armies of entire nations with impunity, burn entire armies to ash, bring winter across an entire nation in the middle of summer, conquer aging, bend time, and turn you into a dragon with a finger snap. A Fighter can take the field against twenty five thousand foes and walk off two days later without a scratch on him and none of his foes alive or fight the champions of the Abyss in single combat and emerge victorious. A Bard can calm a raging enemy with but a few words and turn him into a fanatical follower with but a short conversation, or he can turn an entire legion in to a fanatical mob that will willingly die for the Bard.

Level 18 PC Class: Demigods. World spanning empires can be single handedly conquered in days. Entire planes with whatever laws of reality the individual desires can be created. Death is of no concern. Continent spanning cities made of Mithril and sculpted so perfectly that even the gods weep at the beauty can be brought into existence with a finger snap.

Level 21+ PC class: Limitations are for lesser beings. There is no feat that can not be performed, no task that can not be completed, no enemy that can not be defeated. Stories exist of Fighter's who have held a single passage against unending demonic hordes for ten thousand years without even a minutes rest, and they are true.

That...was....beautiful