[3.5] Demoralization for a Hexblade - Suggestions!

[Valluman]

A standard action to debuff an enemy for one round with a minor debuff. I like the concept, but I feel like I'd be wasting my time demoralizing a single target with a standard action.

What are some ways to make it cool? Are there ways to make demoralizing a move action or similar? Are there ways to AoE demoralize? I'd love suggestions.

[Spore]

For PF: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_dazzling-display

[Telonius]

Well, there is one, but it requires 10 levels of Samurai. ShneekeyTheLost made a version of it here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726).

[hymer]

Imperious Command, Intimidating Rage, Instantaneous Rage feats. Never Outnumbered skill trick. Quite the useful combo in 3.5.

[Tim Proctor]

Never Outnumbered a skill trick from CS, makes it a 10ft AoE.

Imperious Command from DrUD makes them cower (helpless).

Rapid Intimidation from the Avenging Executioner in CS makes it a movement or swift action, don't remember what exactly.

Id' actually look at the builds for the current Iron Chef competition because there are like 5-6 demoralize builds in there, and they are all really good.

EDIT: Here is the link http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823&page=9

[Fouredged Sword]

There is an armor in Drow of the underdark that turns the action into a move action. There is a skill trick that allows you to use it VS everyone within a radius once per combat. I also think there is a feat somewhere that lets you attack and demoralize at the same time as a standard action.

Mixing the three together works well, as you can demoralize 2 time a round and still attack. If they fail both saves, they loose their action to running away.

[Valluman]

I should clarify some things!

The character is a Hexblade using the fix. I looked at Imperious Command, and I am going to definitely pick that one up. Thanks to the suggestion of the item enchantment (Fearsome) that also helps a lot; I didn't even think to look at item enchantments for demoralizing effects, so a huge thanks for that one.

One feat plus a magic item and a skill trick makes this guy a monster already; I love it. Are there any ways to extend the duration of Demoralize in 3.5 or another 3.X?

[Fouredged Sword]

Fear effects stack in a funny way. They last as long as the duration of the longest effect and stay stacked until it ends. Hit someone with an effect that leaves then shaken for a long duration and then demoralize them, and the effects will stack and remain until the longest duration expires.

This is great if you can get a low lost long duration fear effect. I suggest a wand of fell frighten magic missile. You can demoralize as a move action, then stack on another fear effect with a 1 min duration and no save. It can hit up to 5 creatures at the same time.

[Valluman]

Fell Frighten could be neat, but that'd require a magic item he'd have to use in combat. It's neat, but I am wondering if there's a lighter weight way to get a long duration fear on the target, and the fell frighten metamagic feat would be hard to use since he only has 4 spell levels.

[Diovid]

Option 1: The spellcaster. Take leves in Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) and maybe Nightmare Spinner (Complete Mage). Also read the Nightmare Spinner's adapation section.

Option 2: The samurai (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).

Option 3: The pirate. Desert Half-Orc Fighter 5 / Half-Orc Paragon 1 / Fighter + 4 / Scarlet Corsair 10. Take all of the following fighter variants: Sneak Attack, Zhentarim Fighter, Thug and Dead Levels.

In any case, read this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0

[Valluman]

In addition, can someone explain how fear effects stack? I have the Rules Compendium, but it still leaves me just a liiiiittle confused. Reading the rules, it seems as though (completely hypothetical situation here) if a shaken effect that lasts for 1 round is put on a target who is also shaken for 6 rounds, they will be frightened for 1 round and then shaken for the remainder on the 6 round shaken. Is that correct, or does a target become frightened for 6 rounds? I am assuming the former.

[Valluman]

B-dump with clarification on my inquires.

[Tim Proctor]

In addition, can someone explain how fear effects stack? I have the Rules Compendium, but it still leaves me just a liiiiittle confused. Reading the rules, it seems as though (completely hypothetical situation here) if a shaken effect that lasts for 1 round is put on a target who is also shaken for 6 rounds, they will be frightened for 1 round and then shaken for the remainder on the 6 round shaken. Is that correct, or does a target become frightened for 6 rounds? I am assuming the former.

I've always interpreted it to be stacking like the former where they are frightened for 1 turn and shaken for 5 (because they burnt 1 during the frightened duration. I hope the table below illustrates what I'm trying to communicate.

{table=head]Round|Shaken|Frightened|Panicked|Cowering
1|X|X|-
2|X|-|-
3|X|-|-
4|X|-|-
5|X|-|-
6|X|-|-[/table]

[Coidzor]

Stacking? Ok. Say you make someone Shaken for 5 rounds, then you make them Shaken with another effect for 2 rounds. That person is now Frightened for 5 rounds.

Take someone that was Frightened for 2 rounds and then make them Shaken for 1 minute, they're now Panicked for one minute.

That's why Imperious Command is even more potent with any kind of caster, or even bardic music* support.

*The Haunting Melody feat from Heroes of Horror makes enemies of the bard who hear the bard using a bardic music performance make a will save and those who fail a will save shaken for the bard's number of perform ranks rounds, which means level+3 rounds, so combine that with another shaken or a frighten or a panic or a cower, and they're out of the fight one way or the other.

[Red Fel]

In addition, can someone explain how fear effects stack? I have the Rules Compendium, but it still leaves me just a liiiiittle confused. Reading the rules, it seems as though (completely hypothetical situation here) if a shaken effect that lasts for 1 round is put on a target who is also shaken for 6 rounds, they will be frightened for 1 round and then shaken for the remainder on the 6 round shaken. Is that correct, or does a target become frightened for 6 rounds? I am assuming the former.

In the Fear Handbook linked above, there is a very helpful quote on this point. It reads:


Multiple exposures to the same effect don’t trigger an escalation of fear. Exposure to different effects does. When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire.

Translation: If you escalate fear effects on a target, the escalated state remains until the longest duration ends.

Example: Round 1: You use Effect 1 on a target, making him Shaken for 1d4 rounds... Lucky roll! You got a 4!
Round 2: You use Effect 2, causing all targets - including the guy from Round 1 - to be shaken for 6 rounds. He escalates to Frightened, and it lasts for the longer duration - here, 6 rounds.
Round 5: The effect from Round 1 would have expired by now, but it was escalated and extended by the effect you used in Round 2. He is still Frightened.
Get it?

[Coidzor]

Takahashi No Oniisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), by the way. For an example of what you can do with a Samurai and fear.

[Person_Man]

Hexblade homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218093).

Also, Fear is super potent, but also very situational. If it works, you've basically won combat. If enemies are immune (either because they have too many hit dice or because they're immune to Fear or mental effects or they just have high Will or...), you've basically invested all of your resources (class ability, Feats, Skills, etc) into something non-functions. So it's handy to have, but don't go overboard in optimizing it.

[herrhauptmann]

Most of it's already been said, but here's the Fear Handbook. http://web.archive.org/web/20120520034053/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0
It misses out on a few sources, so it could be a little more complete.

Of particular note, I think you should look at the Screaming bolts. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#screamingBolt
For a single +1 Screaming Bolt:
((267*50)-6000)=147 gold
Don't even aim them at an enemy, especially in large scale combat. Aim for a square at the very back of the enemy formation. A shot so easy a commoner could do it.

[Valluman]

Okay, sweet! I'm surprised that the fearing effects stack so effectively, but nonetheless happy for it. I'm also not looking to optimize it, just make it a useful option, such as having Imperious Command with Fearful Armor and Never Outnumbered. The reason for that is for the AoE negatives stacking with the Hexblade's own curse and Dark Companion. He's aimed for being a Hex-Tank, so I am looking at AoE debuffs for him, and these three things (one item, one skill trick, and one feat) give me just that.

I'm still looking for a definite way to keep the AoE fear going, such as a spell. Sure, there's the Fear spell, but that's the Hexblade's max level of casting.

@Person_Man: I looked into your fix before I found the semi-official fix, and it wasn't my cup of tea.

Fix in spoiler.
* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

[Kennisiou]

Dictuum Mortum's Hexblade Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/hexblades-handbook.html) shows a lot of feats that help with demoralizing. You can grab Dreadful Wrath from Player's Guide to Faerun at level 1 (DM permitting since it's a regional feat from Faerun and he may want to refluff the regional prerequisite), which lets you shake anyone within ten feet of you whenever you charge, full attack, or cast a spell (downside, pass or fail, everyone can be effected by this move only once). Follow that with an IC never outnumbered intimidate if you can make it swift and you'll leave everyone who fails both saves cowering for a minute. Your dark companion makes this even easier to pull off since you can lower will saves of high-priority targets. If you look at tome of magic you can bind Focalor, Prince of Tears to gain an aura of sadness that gives everyone adjacent to you a -2 untyped penalty to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, making it even easier for you to succeed in your demoralization strategy (this will cost you either two feats - bind vestage and improved bind vestage - or five levels of binder). Debuff/demoralization hexblade is a really solid build and you have a lot of tools to work with it. Additionally you have a lot of way to stack up save penalties to make your fear effects more useful. That's generally what I'd look at for feats/spells/dips if you want to go fearblade: find ways to make fear happen and find ways to make save penalties happen. Bonus points if the save penalties are saveless like Dark Companion and Aura of Tears!

Edit: Do be careful about going overboard on fear, because fear-immune enemies are problematic. Two feats and a skill trick (IC, Dreaful Wrath, never outnumbered) as well as some gear isn't a problem, but going four feats (bind vestage and improved bind vestage) to bind Focalor may be problematic (although every day you can choose to bind a different level 3 or lower vestage during your daily bind instead).

[Coidzor]

Paladin of Tyranny 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) - Aura of Despair, -2 to saves.

Blackguard 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm#auraofDespair) - Aura of Despair, -2 to saves.

[Valluman]

Paladin of Tyranny 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures) - Aura of Despair, -2 to saves.

Blackguard 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm#auraofDespair) - Aura of Despair, -2 to saves.

Blackguard is feesible for the build, but PoT won't be. We (my group) use prestige paladin, so unless I'm looking to multi-class the Hexblade into Cleric for PoT and then go into BG as well, thus lessening the Hexblade's magic and his familiar, it won't be a good choice.

@Kennisiou: You don't think going for Focalor would strain the Hexblade's feat allotment, do you? Granted, it is less than what's required for a BG for the same effect.

Still didn't answer my question about an AoE fear effect that last a while though. XD

[Kennisiou]

Blackguard is feesible for the build, but PoT won't be. We (my group) use prestige paladin, so unless I'm looking to multi-class the Hexblade into Cleric for PoT and then go into BG as well, thus lessening the Hexblade's magic and his familiar, it won't be a good choice.

@Kennisiou: You don't think going for Focalor would strain the Hexblade's feat allotment, do you? Granted, it is less than what's required for a BG for the same effect.

Still didn't answer my question about an AoE fear effect that last a while though. XD

Dreadful wrath lasts a whole minute and is AoE demoralize (first rank of fear). Follow that with AoE Imperious Command intimidate and you should have a minute of AoE cowering for everyone that fails both saves. It's honestly a pretty solid combo.

Straining feat allotment... A tad, but only if you really want leadership or familiar feats. Hexblade bonus feats should get you the casting feats you need (combat casting, spell penetration, improved spell penetration, school focus). If you don't go for companion feats you probably should have two open feats. A quick feat mock-up for a build like this (assuming 20 levels human hexblade) is...

L1: Power attack
Human: Dreadful Wrath
L3: Bind Vestage
Hex5: Combat Casting
L6: Improved Bind Vestage
L9: Imperious Command, Never outnumbered skiltrick
Hex10: Spell Penetration
L12: Brutal Strike (nausea is super useful and effects a number of things fear doesn't, giving you more ways to stack debuffs on enemies than just fear)
Hex 15: School focus or Improved Spell penetration
L15: Minor Shapeshift/obtain familiar
L18: Leap Attack/improved familiar
Hex 20: Improved School focus or Improved Spell penetration or School focus.

There's some nice stuff this kind of build misses out on. You get leap attack really late because you don't dip into a class with jump as a class skill, you don't get leadership. You can't take improved trip or exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain. No improved initiative. Honestly, though, a lot of the feats I suggested aren't necessary (brutal strike and leap attack in particular) and there's some room for dips if you don't want the 20th level hexblade feat or 19th level hexblade improved curse (paladin of tyranny, blackgaurd, or if you like the charge focus you can grab one level of spirit lion totem barbarian early for the pounce so you can leap attack + brutal strike power attack combo even harder and to have access to a class with jump as a class skill to get leap attack sooner if you want).

Honestly, I don't view Hexblade as a feat starved class. They're not trying to do a ton of things and they don't have any feats specifically made for them, they just grab the few general debuffing feats that exist, a few combat feats and a few cohort feats and let their bonus feats get them the very small number of caster feats that benefit them. You can totally take 2 feats out of that to bind a vestage for a saveless -2 penalties to all d20 rolls made by people adjacent to you by people that are not immune to mind-influencing effects (that can be traded out for a number of other useful effects if need be).

[Valluman]

I'm not a fan of the charge build, so I'll tweak that. One thing I did notice is that you can get Bind Vestige and Improved at level one, if you're a human and/or have flaws. I'll get those and Draedful Wrath (with one flaw) and move forward from there. His initiation in combat, even at a low level, would be a devastating thing to his opponents. If nothing else, it means his primary target will take anywhere from -2 to -6 on his rolls and such.

This also opens the door for getting the fear effects sooner, with the Vestige out of the way, and then getting an improved familiar and whatnot.

[Kennisiou]

Oh yeah, for sure. With flaws you definitely don't have to worry about being feat starved and can probably accomplish a lot of the things you want to do.

I really heavily recommend taking power attack even if you aren't taking feats to charge with it. Power attack + your mass debuffs is a really nice combo since you'll be able to strike accurately and hit harder. Also, remember to trade out your familiar for a Dark Companion (PHB II) then take obtain familiar as a feat. Having a Dark Companion and a familiar (and then an improved familiar with another feat) is super awesome. Hexblade (even without its fixes) is a really excellent debuffing and fear class that's often overlooked in favor of things like warlock and dread witch and dread necro and wizard/sorc and barbararian.

If you're looking for other stuff to do that isn't charging and isn't fear stuff, might I recommend nabbing spiked chain proficiency and improved trip? Lets you do some neat stuff and the prerequisite of combat expertise is nice for you for the same reason as power attack (you don't care about penalizing your attack rolls if you penalize their AC even more), and the improved reach on spiked train lets you intimidate at a longer range for when you're intimidating after having used your one never outnumbered for the encounter. Can also be thematically pretty appropriate since it's a pretty nasty weapon. It's pretty unimpressive as a capstone to a build, though, so I'd not really consider it if you can't get the feats you need for it before level 12 or so (so, like, without a 1-2 level fighter dip it's probably not a great idea).

Oh, and one thing I did forget to mention about binding Focalor: your character will be constantly crying while he's bound. Not like outright bawling or anything, but a thin stream of tears from both eyes at all times. There's nothing you can do to stop this, although there are ways to cover it up.

[Valluman]

Oh, and one thing I did forget to mention about binding Focalor: your character will be constantly crying while he's bound. Not like outright bawling or anything, but a thin stream of tears from both eyes at all times. There's nothing you can do to stop this, although there are ways to cover it up.

Yeah, that's my one complaint with a vestige, but the benefits aren't bad at all. I'll just have him bind Focalor before combat rather than doing it when he prepares spells, if he can help it. Giving him a helmet couldn't hurt either since, technically by RAW, they don't inhibit vision... For whatever reason.

[Kennisiou]

Yeah, that's my one complaint with a vestige, but the benefits aren't bad at all. I'll just have him bind Focalor before combat rather than doing it when he prepares spells, if he can help it. Giving him a helmet couldn't hurt either since, technically by RAW, they don't inhibit vision... For whatever reason.

Hahaha, yeah a helmet would work fine for not drawing attention. I actually played a Focalor binding HExblade once and NPCs/players would always ask about the tears. My character would say something like "it is the price I pay for great magical power." It became a running gag for the NPCs to respond "oh. Well... is it worth it?" with my character being less and less convinced that it was every time he was asked.