Optimizing VoP with gear!

[JaronK]

Okay, the other thread was... getting a bit hostile. But let's focus on the idea of optimizing Vow of Poverty with gear. How do we do this? Well, there's a few legit ways.

1) The Apostle of Peace class requires Vow of Poverty, but then goes on to say that the Vow for them simply requires that any magical gear they have be defensive in nature. IMHO, you still have to donate more than 50% of your wealth to charity, but the rest can now be spent on defensive items. Neat!

2) Anything that can't be given away will stay with you after you take the feat. This means Tomes to boost your stats, permanencied spells, the Mineral Warrior template, and grafts can be purchased in advance.

3) The Kensai class lets you enchant your fists using Exp instead of wealth.

Anyone else got fun ideas for this?

[Red Fel]

Do Soulmelds count for this thread? I mean, let's consider:
If bound to a chakra, they take up a gear slot - it's not like you could wear something there anyway creepy nudists...
They can increase your damage output, give you extra attacks, or boost your AC - in short, they serve a similar function to regular gear, which you can't wear seriously, put some clothes on...
They grant the "extra options" that so many high-level VoP characters lack, like flight or Dimension Door
Being formed out of essentia, they're not technically equipment, and thus are totally kosher under VoP

[ArqArturo]

I don't know if it's plausible, but I have a few things in mind:

1.- Sandshaper lets you create items using sand, such as armor and weapons, which I'm sure can be upgraded

2.- This is doubtful, mind you, but it might work: the Champion of Bahamut (another PrC of the BoED), gives you armor from the skin of a slain red dragon, that if worn by someone else, it degrades into scales and destroys itself. At certain levels, you get some money which needs to be spent in nothing quaint, and states that using it to improve your armor is not quaint (I'm sure of the money, in platinum coins no less, would go to charity).

[Kioras]

RAW, VoP means nothing. You have your baby suit, a loin cloth, a stick, and some day old rations.

RAI, I expect mostly the same, except that spellbook/focus and other things that let your class function would be excepted.

Apostle of peace is weird, which one takes priority and that would determin the order of things.

The largest issue with it is of course losing the special defenses and effects, and part of that is that wotc never introduce any more exalted feats in the other books as if the whole idea of exalted feats began and ended with the BoED.

Would True Believer allow you to use relics of your diety, since it states it allows you to use relics of a diety you worship or would VoP take prescendance?

[eggynack]

RAW, VoP means nothing. You have your baby suit, a loin cloth, a stick, and some day old rations.
Except you're wrong, because you can do those things JaronK said. It's a pretty narrow set of stuff, but it's there.


Apostle of peace is weird, which one takes priority and that would determin the order of things.
Apostle of peace takes precedence, because it's a specific exception for a general rule.


Would True Believer allow you to use relics of your diety, since it states it allows you to use relics of a diety you worship or would VoP take prescendance?
I'm doubtful on this one. True believer says that it lets you use a relic, but it doesn't say that it lets you own one.

[Dimers]

Heh. Was "getting" hostile? More like, started hostile and became mocking and hostile.

There are third-party feats for tattoo items, which presumably can't be given away. Doesn't work for psi tattoos, though, since those explicitly can be moved from person to person.

EDIT: Speaking of psi, how would call armor and call weapon powers work? Seems to me like they'd violate the "may not use" portion, but you certainly don't OWN the called items. I'm AFB right now.

[Captnq]

Wait wait wait... defensive weapons?

So, I can put smoking in my two handed sword and because it gives me a 20% miss chance to be hit, it's now defensive and gets around VoP?

How about Defensive Surge? Snail?

Baleful Polymorph 1/day is only 18,100 gp in a weapon. I'm not killing anyone, I'm just turning them into a chipmunk. That I am using as the target for an animal message spell. And that message it is delivering is, "I prepared explosive runes today."

Please explain this to me.

[eggynack]

Wait wait wait... defensive weapons?

So, I can put smoking in my two handed sword and because it gives me a 20% miss chance to be hit, it's now defensive and gets around VoP?

How about Defensive Surge? Snail?

Baleful Polymorph 1/day is only 18,100 gp in a weapon. I'm not killing anyone, I'm just turning them into a chipmunk. That I am using as the target for an animal message spell. And that message it is delivering is, "I prepared explosive runes today."

Please explain this to me.
If you're referring to apostle of peace, it says protective magic items, rather than defensive weapons. However, there's no real definition for protective magic items, so you can justify just about anything out there. In a narrow definition, you might be limited to stuff that improved AC or something, but you can always throw AC bonuses on everything as if they were the VoP equivalent of wilding clasps. In a broad definition, you end up saying stuff like, "I have this necklace of fireballs for my own protection."

[Kioras]

Except you're wrong, because you can do those things JaronK said. It's a pretty narrow set of stuff, but it's there.


Apostle of peace takes precedence, because it's a specific exception for a general rule.


I'm doubtful on this one. True believer says that it lets you use a relic, but it doesn't say that it lets you own one.

Oh, I fully accept what JaronK said persoanlly, now the ability to convince some DM's who think Monk + VoP = overpowered is different.

On the True Believer, what if the Relic was owned by the chuch and loaned out to you for the duration of the adventure and then returned afterwards. With the understanding that some of your donations would go towards church related causes.

[Captnq]

If you're referring to apostle of peace, it says protective magic items, rather than defensive weapons. However, there's no real definition for protective magic items, so you can justify just about anything out there. In a narrow definition, you might be limited to stuff that improved AC or something, but you can always throw AC bonuses on everything as if they were the VoP equivalent of wilding clasps. In a broad definition, you end up saying stuff like, "I have this necklace of fireballs for my own protection."

AH. Thank you. It's rules bending. Gotcha.

[Gnaeus]

2) Anything that can't be given away will stay with you after you take the feat. This means Tomes to boost your stats, permanencied spells, the Mineral Warrior template, and grafts can be purchased in advance.

Maybe.

Having any of those things, then taking VoP is pretty clearly O.K.

If someone tried to explain to me as a DM how they were converting their wealth to Tomes and Grafts as a prelude to VoP, I would rule that they were intentionally subverting the vow. Spending all your money on things that give you bonuses and then declaring your intention to live a simple life is IMO directly against the fluff of giving all your worldly possessions to the poor.


Oh, I fully accept what JaronK said persoanlly, now the ability to convince some DM's who think Monk + VoP = overpowered is different..

It isn't whether it is overpowered (although it could conceivably be overpowered if you got virtually all your WBL and then the Vow benefits on top of them). It is what the feat is supposed to DO. Trying to trick the powers of good by skirting the letter of the law I regard as a good way to lose exalted status. It is like saying that all those visits to Prostitutes do not break one's Vow of Chastity because there was never penetration.

[JaronK]

As far as I can tell, an Apostle of Peace has to just cry "Self Defense" every time they attack.

Seriously though, IIRC they need Vow of Peace anyway, so it's not like they're going to have offensive magic items. As such, that class basically just lets you spend up to half your wealth on items while you still have VoP.

Also, there's a shadow shaper class from Tome of Magic that lets you create temporary items out of shadow. That makes VoP Rogues a possibility, since you can have thieve's tools.

JaronK

[ArqArturo]

Doesn't the Vow of Peace not apply when facing fiends and/or undead?.

[eggynack]

On the True Believer, what if the Relic was owned by the chuch and loaned out to you for the duration of the adventure and then returned afterwards. With the understanding that some of your donations would go towards church related causes.
I'm doubtful. The feat specifically doesn't allow you to borrow things from your companions. I guess you could define the church as not a companion, but that'd work for anything, rather than as a combo with true believer, and it's extremely dubious.

[Red Fel]

Doesn't the Vow of Peace not apply when facing fiends and/or undead?.

Constructs and undead. The Vow applies only to living creatures.

Fiends are technically alive. (Just not for long when they run into a well-optimized group of heroes.)

[JaronK]

Indeed, but an AoP would have a tough time justifying an undead destroying weapon as "protective". Likewise, I'm not sure I'd buy a flight item (though a ring of feather fall should be fine).

But 50% of your wealth spent on armor, resistance boosting items, and items that cast protective spells, plus similar stuff? That could be really good combined with VoP. You're a caster, so get everything else you need that way.

By the way, this is the Tome of Magic class: http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowsmith/

Factotum8/Shadowsmith 10 would be pretty impressive for a Vow of Poverty skill monkey. A one level dip into Apostle of Peace would be worth it just for the ability to buy defensive items.

JaronK

[hydraa]

If you want gear that is not gear you could go soulknife (and soulbow) to allow you to have a magic weapon that equivalent could be worth close to 200000 gp value at a high level.

[Hecuba]

Factotum8/Shadowsmith 10 would be pretty impressive for a Vow of Poverty skill monkey. A one level dip into Apostle of Peace would be worth it just for the ability to buy defensive items.
JaronK

On the somewhat rare occasions that I've used a VoP character, I've considered but never gone with a combination of Pyrokineticist and Shadowsmith.
Between the two, we can cover flight (or at least a flight analogue), mundane possessions, and basic weapon enhancements. At minimum, it addresses some of the more glaring gaps.

[Aharon]

I think I have seen the Gray Guard ability


Sacrament of the True Faith: At 10th level, you gain your order's full confidence. You are granted the freedom to act on behalf of your faith as you deem necessary. Thus, you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct. This trust does not grant you the freedom to act as violently or immorally as you wish, however. Release from your code of conduct depends on your acting as an exemplar of your order's ideals. If you violate this trust by habitually acting in an immoral or corrupt manner, the leaders or deity of your faith might revoke their blessing and banish you from the ranks of the faithful.

used in conjunction with PrCs that grant VoP in the past, but I'm not sure about the legality.

[mabriss lethe]

I think a corner case could also be made about Eberron symbionts.

[Deophaun]

If someone tried to explain to me as a DM how they were converting their wealth to Tomes and Grafts as a prelude to VoP, I would rule that they were intentionally subverting the vow. Spending all your money on things that give you bonuses and then declaring your intention to live a simple life is IMO directly against the fluff of giving all your worldly possessions to the poor.
The depends. Is it the player telling you how he's building the character, or is it the character bragging about how he's going to pull one over on TPTB?

Because the former is kosher, the latter is clearly against the fluff.

[Andvare]

As far as I can tell, an Apostle of Peace has to just cry "Self Defense" every time they attack.

Seriously though, IIRC they need Vow of Peace anyway, so it's not like they're going to have offensive magic items. As such, that class basically just lets you spend up to half your wealth on items while you still have VoP.

Also, there's a shadow shaper class from Tome of Magic that lets you create temporary items out of shadow. That makes VoP Rogues a possibility, since you can have thieve's tools.

JaronK

I never suspected that Jimbo was an Apostle of Peace. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU)

[Lanson]

On the True Believer, what if the Relic was owned by the chuch and loaned out to you for the duration of the adventure and then returned afterwards. With the understanding that some of your donations would go towards church related causes.

Well, technically it would still break your vow, here's the line.

"You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it."

Technically, a church isn't a companion, but it explicitly states you cannot borrow magic items even for a single round. However, it says nothing about carrying magic items and wealth for your allies. I guess as long as you don't have the item give you it's benefit you're fine.

[Telonius]

Complete subversion of the intent: Leadership feat, and attract an Artificer cohort. Have him create magic items of useful spells to cast on you (or use on your behalf) whenever the need arises.

[ArqArturo]

Well, technically it would still break your vow, here's the line.

"You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll wand or staff. If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it."

Technically, a church isn't a companion, but it explicitly states you cannot borrow magic items even for a single round. However, it says nothing about carrying magic items and wealth for your allies. I guess as long as you don't have the item give you it's benefit you're fine.

What about items created with the Sandshaper's shandshape? Basically they're just, well, sand.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kioras
The largest issue with it is of course losing the special defenses and effects, and part of that is that wotc never introduce[d] any more exalted feats in the other books as if the whole idea of exalted feats began and ended with the BoED.

Champions of Valor added all of six new exalted feats to the repertoire; the only one I've ever had any use for is Defender of the Homeland, and that only works while you're in your "home region," which is left undefined.

Also, CoV is specific to the Forgotten Realms, so if you're not playing in Faerûn then some DMs might disallow it.



As for items, gear, and etc. for VoP characters...in the case of an ascetic druid with The Vow, is there any solid reason why your animal companion couldn't have a few items? This isn't addressed in the text of the Vow; the wording is limited to personal possessions of the character alone.

Now, I can think of plenty of arguments why it wouldn't be a good idea; it certainly feels like cheating, and while the animal companion isn't a possession, there's some implicit responsibility there, which suggests the ascetic has some vague moral responsibility for the use of those items.

And, of course, it's completely DM-dependent. But it did occur to me as a quasi-weaselly workaround.

.

[Kioras]

Champions of Valor added all of six new exalted feats to the repertoire; the only one I've ever had any use for is Defender of the Homeland, and that only works while you're in your "home region," which is left undefined.

Also, CoV is specific to the Forgotten Realms, so if you're not playing in Faerûn then some DMs might disallow it.



As for items, gear, and etc. for VoP characters...in the case of an ascetic druid with The Vow, is there any solid reason why your animal companion couldn't have a few items? This isn't addressed in the text of the Vow; the wording is limited to personal possessions of the character alone.

Now, I can think of plenty of arguments why it wouldn't be a good idea; it certainly feels like cheating, and while the animal companion isn't a possession, there's some implicit responsibility there, which suggests the ascetic has some vague moral responsibility for the use of those items.

And, of course, it's completely DM-dependent. But it did occur to me as a quasi-weaselly workaround.

.

As a DM I would personally home brew up some exalted feats to hand out the missing abilities, and extend the feats that qualify for exalted to include both divine feats and even allow the use of the soul bind/open chakra feats which can provide more customization.

But, other then a few of the things mentioned above there is not much normal freedom a VoP player has per RAW/RAI.

[Karnith]

Champions of Valor added all of six new exalted feats to the repertoire; the only one I've ever had any use for is Defender of the Homeland, and that only works while you're in your "home region," which is left undefined.

Also, CoV is specific to the Forgotten Realms, so if you're not playing in Faerûn then some DMs might disallow it.
Player's Guide to Faerun also has a few (well, three) Exalted feats.

[Phelix-Mu]

To the general idea, but away from the RAW, I have introduced a Soulknife ACF (for my own upgraded Soulknife fix) that allows the Soulknife to shape their mindblade into all manner of useful implements, from something that works like thieves tools, to sewing needles, to scalpels and surgical tools, to scribing implements for writing. I think it will work off a gp cap, but I want it flexibly replicate tools and gear of various types that are Tiny and smaller sizes.

This would work great with a VoP concept, along the lines of the Shadowsmith PrC that JaronK mentioned (which is an awesome flavor PrC...not sure the crunch is quite up to snuff, but the whole concept is about seven kinds of cool).

EDIT: All optional rules and subsystems got pretty well-ignored by supplements, not just Exalted Feats. The only exceptions to this were warlock invocations, which appeared in a handful of other, totally unrelated books, and psionic powers, which appeared helter skelter all over the place. But even those two examples were pretty shabby, overall, as quality was wildly inconsistent (Eldritch Glaive v Witchwood Step or whatever it was that...was it walk on water?), flavor somewhat rote (or just par for whatever book it was in), and, most irritatingly, to acquire this "variety" involved spending large amounts of coin on teh bookzors (or...you know...that internet option).

[Talya]

1. Play a worshipper of Mystra with Vow of Poverty. Donate all your accumulated wealth to the Church of Mystra. (Substitute any other good church of magic in other settings. This really works with any good-aligned church that is powerful enough and would have reason to keep a level 17 or better wizard/archivist on retainer.)
2. Call in goodwill favors (see Tithes and Offerings - BoED Pg. 29) from the church to arrange for a church wizard (this is the church of Mystra) to use Wish spells to give you the inherent bonuses you want.
3. ?
4. Donate the profits back to the Church of Mystra.

You can do the same for any buffs that can be permanencied.

=========================

Alternately:

Play a Heartwarder charisma-based spellcaster with VOP. (You'll get the inherent charisma bonus free.)

[molten_dragon]

Okay, the other thread was... getting a bit hostile. But let's focus on the idea of optimizing Vow of Poverty with gear. How do we do this? Well, there's a few legit ways.

1) The Apostle of Peace class requires Vow of Poverty, but then goes on to say that the Vow for them simply requires that any magical gear they have be defensive in nature. IMHO, you still have to donate more than 50% of your wealth to charity, but the rest can now be spent on defensive items. Neat!

2) Anything that can't be given away will stay with you after you take the feat. This means Tomes to boost your stats, permanencied spells, the Mineral Warrior template, and grafts can be purchased in advance.

3) The Kensai class lets you enchant your fists using Exp instead of wealth.

Anyone else got fun ideas for this?

It's quite a stretch, but an argument could be made that you could have and use psionic items with Vow of Poverty, since VoP defines 'ordinary' as "neither magic nor masterwork", and every other proscription against items only mentions magic items. Psionics/Magic transparency might negate this though, so it's more likely to be valid by RAW if you're using the 'psionics and magic are different' rule.