Did Entanglement (including Rope of ...) get Nerfed from 3.0 to 3.5?

[johnbragg]

I was going to suggest that the Abjurant Champion in the other thread take Net as his Martial Weapon Proficiency (I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial), but I re-read the description and "entangled" doesn't do what it used to, or what we thought it used to.

I had a Sorcerer who had crafted a Net of Entanglement, which was an "I win" button against casters, who usually won't make a STrength Check of 25 or an Escape ARtist check of 20. (One combat, I flew in and netted their main caster, figuring, accurately, that I would be KO'd but the rest of the party would mop up the mooks without much trouble. Nowadays, we would say "Ah, optimized Tier 2 neutralizes a Tier 1.")

Was "entanglement" nerfed from 3.0 to 3.5, or did Rope of Entanglement/Animate Rope never actually bind its target?

[Fax Celestis]

I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial

It doesn't.

[Artillery]

Nets are easy enough to use. You make a ranged touch attack. The -4 for non proficiency isn't that bad when its against touch AC.

Entangled gives -2 to attack rolls, -4 penalty to dex, 1/2 move speed, and cannot run or charge. Also need a DC 15 concentration check to cast spells.

[Daftendirekt]

(I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial)

What.

Just.... what.

Do you understand the point of weapons being exotic in this game?

[Scumbaggery]

I was going to suggest that the Abjurant Champion in the other thread take Net as his Martial Weapon Proficiency (I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial)

Weapon proficiency are treated as groups, sans Exotic.

[herrhauptmann]

Abjurant champion requires you to be proficient with a martial weapon.
You can't bypass this by being proficient with an exotic, unless that exotic is treated as a martial for you. (Dwarven waraxe for dwarves)

Yes, it would make sense that being proficient in an exotic weapon would mean a dedication to the art of combat, and therefore let you get into abjurant champion. After all, martials are easier to learn and use than exotics.
But that's not in the rules. To use it would be a houserule (a sensible houserule, but a houserule just the same)


Weapon proficiency are treated as groups, sans Exotic.
Yes, simple, martial, exotic. But if someone doesn't get proficiency with all martial weapons (like a fighter or paladin), then they take the feat martial weapon proficiency, which lets them use ONE martial weapon without penalty. You can't take a feat "martial weapon proficiency" and become proficient with all the martial weapons.

[Scumbaggery]

Yes, simple, martial, exotic. But if someone doesn't get proficiency with all martial weapons (like a fighter or paladin), then they take the feat martial weapon proficiency, which lets them use ONE martial weapon without penalty. You can't take a feat "martial weapon proficiency" and become proficient with all the martial weapons.

I should have clarified; I was referring to how most classes will grant you groups of weapon "proficiency's" as opposed to just taking it once. Made sense in my head :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

I should have clarified; I was referring to how most classes will grant you groups of weapon "proficiency's" as opposed to just taking it once. Made sense in my head :smalltongue:
Ahh, yes.
And a few other informal groups too, like 'monk weapons.'

I've been spending too much time talking with people shaky on the rules. A knowledgeable group like gitp forums is a welcome change.
I hope I didn't sound rude in my last post.

[Coidzor]

I was going to suggest that the Abjurant Champion in the other thread take Net as his Martial Weapon Proficiency (I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial), but I re-read the description and "entangled" doesn't do what it used to, or what we thought it used to.

I had a Sorcerer who had crafted a Net of Entanglement, which was an "I win" button against casters, who usually won't make a STrength Check of 25 or an Escape ARtist check of 20. (One combat, I flew in and netted their main caster, figuring, accurately, that I would be KO'd but the rest of the party would mop up the mooks without much trouble. Nowadays, we would say "Ah, optimized Tier 2 neutralizes a Tier 1.")

Was "entanglement" nerfed from 3.0 to 3.5, or did Rope of Entanglement/Animate Rope never actually bind its target?

What did you think it did?


Net

A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net’s maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.

An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action).

A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.

A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so.


Rope of Entanglement

A rope of entanglement looks just like any other hempen rope about 30 feet long. Upon command, the rope lashes forward 20 feet or upward 10 feet to entangle a victim. An entangled creature can break free with a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check.

The rope has AC 22, 12 hit points, and hardness 10, and it has damage reduction 5/slashing as well. The rope repairs damage to itself at a rate of 1 point per 5 minutes, but if a rope of entanglement is severed (all 12 hit points lost to damage), it is destroyed.

Moderate transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects, animate rope, entangle; Price 21,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.


Entangled

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

So it looks like being entangled by a Net imposes a flat DC 15 concentration check whereas entangled by another source that doesn't specify means that the character has to make a DC 15+spell level concentration check.


Yes, simple, martial, exotic. But if someone doesn't get proficiency with all martial weapons (like a fighter or paladin), then they take the feat martial weapon proficiency, which lets them use ONE martial weapon without penalty. You can't take a feat "martial weapon proficiency" and become proficient with all the martial weapons.

Though there's always the Militia Feat, but people can have all kinds of issues with feats published in FR setting books and then there's the opportunity cost of other first level-only feats one could take instead versus just dipping a level of a class that grants all martial weapon proficiencies.

[TuggyNE]

I was going to suggest that the Abjurant Champion in the other thread take Net as his Martial Weapon Proficiency (I believe that Exotic counts as MArtial), but I re-read the description and "entangled" doesn't do what it used to, or what we thought it used to.

I had a Sorcerer who had crafted a Net of Entanglement, which was an "I win" button against casters, who usually won't make a STrength Check of 25 or an Escape ARtist check of 20. (One combat, I flew in and netted their main caster, figuring, accurately, that I would be KO'd but the rest of the party would mop up the mooks without much trouble. Nowadays, we would say "Ah, optimized Tier 2 neutralizes a Tier 1.")

Was "entanglement" nerfed from 3.0 to 3.5, or did Rope of Entanglement/Animate Rope never actually bind its target?

It was not nerfed.
Entangled
An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. If the bonds are anchored to an immobile object, the entangled character cannot move. Otherwise, he can move at half speed, but can't run or charge. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC usually 15) or lose the spell.

[herrhauptmann]

Though there's always the Militia Feat, but people can have all kinds of issues with feats published in FR setting books and then there's the opportunity cost of other first level-only feats one could take instead versus just dipping a level of a class that grants all martial weapon proficiencies.

I think the character mentioned in the other thread was going for Abjurant Champion as a single classed wizard.
In which case, for them the best choice might be Fire Elf or something. Get that racial martial weapon proficiency, and chaos shuffle it away.

[johnbragg]

Do you understand the point of weapons being exotic in this game?

Exotic weapons are foreign, not part of standard martial training, and thus require a feat to become Proficient in. Therefore, I'd rule that taking a feat to use an Exotic weapon would met the "Martial Weapon PRoficiency" qualifications--you have weapons training beyond the simple weapons known to the sorcerer or the more limited list known to the wizard.

If taking Weapon Proficiency: Battleaxe meets the standard, then I would rule that taking Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe meets the standard. It's possible that there's a specific ruling that I'm wrong by RAW.


What did you think it did?
We thought that a Rope of Entanglement, based off of the Animate Rope spell, would coil around a target, binding them. We completely missed the description of "entangled", which is the same effect as a regular net. We basically had the Net of Entanglement grapple the target until they made a Strength check or an Escape ARtist check, or until we got around to a coup-de-grace on the bound target. (I'm not sure how we missed the DC 15 Concentration check, which is a flashing neon sign that entanglement isn't a neutralizer.)

[Scumbaggery]

Exotic weapons are foreign, not part of standard martial training, and thus require a feat to become Proficient in. Therefore, I'd rule that taking a feat to use an Exotic weapon would met the "Martial Weapon PRoficiency" qualifications--you have weapons training beyond the simple weapons known to the sorcerer or the more limited list known to the wizard.

If taking Weapon Proficiency: Battleaxe meets the standard, then I would rule that taking Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe meets the standard. It's possible that there's a specific ruling that I'm wrong by RAW.

You are and you're not. Having trained yourself in the art of wielding a gnome hook-hammer effectively does not mean you are capable of picking up a crossbow and firing it flawlessly.


Ahh, yes.
And a few other informal groups too, like 'monk weapons.'

I've been spending too much time talking with people shaky on the rules. A knowledgeable group like gitp forums is a welcome change.
I hope I didn't sound rude in my last post.

Not at all, chap. :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

You are and you're not. Having trained yourself in the art of wielding a gnome hook-hammer effectively does not mean you are capable of picking up a crossbow and firing it flawlessly.

Crossbows are simple weapons.

Point stands: it requires proficiency in a martial weapon. EWP gives you proficiency in exotic weapons.

Compare thusly: if a prestige class says "ability to cast third level spells" and for some inexplicable reason you're playing a class that gets 1st, 2nd, and 4th level spells, you don't qualify. Same thing here: you have your simple proficiencies and the EWP you took (in this example, they're 2nd and 4th level spells), but not any martial weapon proficiencies (3rd level spells).

[PinkysBrain]

Here is a 3.0 SRD :
http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/

As far as I can see nothing changed in regard to entanglement or animate rope. BUT the old rope of entanglement didn't actually entangle, it grappled and being grappled made spell casting impossible period in 3.0 ...