Very rare/nonexistant magic items game

[Crake]

Ok, so basically I'm planning on running a game sometime in the near future. I'm planning on making it a cityscape-esque game, but magic items are an incredible scarcity. Basically, about 1400 years ago, the setting experienced a cataclysm of sorts that almost threatened to eliminate magic, and hugely limited the growth and potential on the material plane (essentially making the setting e6 after about 1000 or so years of gradual decline). That was all fixed about 400 years ago, and magic and mortal potential is back on the uptick, however the mistrust and hatred of magic from the past still clings to the world. In the past many magic items were destroyed or sealed away for fear of their use, and thusly magic items alone are rare, but anything over CL6 is essentially artifact level rarity. In the last 400 years though, magic has been creeping it's way back into the setting, and while generally mistrusted and blamed for problems they didn't create, magic users are no longer executed simply for existing.

Now the problem I have is incorporating this into my game. I don't want to break the mood of the setting by handing the players a rediculous amount of magic items, they will get some to be sure, but they won't get many. So I ask: how do I work around this limitation? So far the interest expressed by potential players is a warblade half-giant (with no apparent intention to go anything psionic, just wanted half giant for the fluff/powerful build) and a lucha-libre style grappler (I'll probably steer him toward unarmed swordsage with setting sun maneuvers sorta build), so tier 3ish. I'm probably gonna have a few more players who haven't decided on character ideas yet, but I'm gonna try and get them to stick around the tier 3ish level.

Edit: Just to add, this is more of a mechanics question rather than a fluff question, once I've come up with a mechanical solution I like, I'll find a way to fluff it into the game

[Theoboldi]

How about simply handing the benefits of VoP to all of their characters for free? That should give them at least some of the needed bonuses, while also allowing you to have the actual items they do get do something cool instead of being simple stat-increases.

[Crake]

How about simply handing the benefits of VoP to all of their characters for free? That should give them at least some of the needed bonuses, while also allowing you to have the actual items they do get do something cool instead of being simple stat-increases.

Hmm, that's actually not a bad idea, quite elegant really... I'll probably remove some things like the whole don't need to eat/drink/breathe thing... maybe.... But that's actually a really nice solution.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You'll probably also want to remove the bonuus exalted feats, but free VoP is a good start. Also consider giving tthem some weapons of legacy benefits without the drawbacks, thus letting them create their own gear and bonuses from it. Plus, the items will tthen only work to their full potential in their hands.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, that's actually not a bad idea, quite elegant really... I'll probably remove some things like the whole don't need to eat/drink/breathe thing... maybe.... But that's actually a really nice solution.

You may or may not want to use a VoP fix, but free effective VoP without the exalted requirements or bonus feats is a good place to start. There's also some inherent boosts for leveling in the Conan D20 game which might be of interest and are occasionally mentioned as a way to help avoid the christmas tree effect or as a place to start in helping to get rid of the christmas tree effect.

[Clistenes]

What about allowing them to pick feats like Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar and Vow of Poverty?

You could also houserule more spells that can be made permanent, effectively turning mundane equipment into (dispellable) magical one with Greater Magical Weapon, Magic Vestment...etc., and enchanting the characters themselves with Bull's Strength and such (just allow the recipient of the permanent spell to pay the XP instead of the caster).

You could consider using one or more of the feats that allow to make magical tattoos: Enchant Tattoo from Green Ronin's The Shaman's Handbook, Inscribe Magical Tattoo from Scarred Land's Relics & Rituals, Skincaster from Dragon Magazine #359...etc.

You could use the Runewright class from Alderac Entertaiment's Magic, a wisdom-based sorcerer who can etch magical runes on pieces of equipment to give them one-use powers (for example, a sword that cast shocking grasp once). The book also has other kinds of rune magic you could use.

The 3.0 ed Runescarred Berseker class from Unapproachable East allows a barbarian type to make enchanted scars on his own skin that allow him to cast one-use spells on himself (they are like scrolls he carries on his own skin).

Another option would be to let them discover rituals that give the non-caster characters templates like Dreadnaught (Book of Templates) or Half-fey.

[Crake]

What about allowing them to pick feats like Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar and Vow of Poverty?

You could also houserule more spells that can be made permanent, effectively turning mundane equipment into (dispellable) magical one with Greater Magical Weapon, Magic Vestment...etc., and enchanting the characters themselves with Bull's Strength and such (just allow the recipient of the permanent spell to pay the XP instead of the caster).

You could consider using one or more of the feats that allow to make magical tattoos: Enchant Tattoo from Green Ronin's The Shaman's Handbook, Inscribe Magical Tattoo from Scarred Land's Relics & Rituals, Skincaster from Dragon Magazine #359...etc.

You could use the Runewright class from Alderac Entertaiment's Magic, a wisdom-based sorcerer who can etch magical runes on pieces of equipment to give them one-use powers (for example, a sword that cast shocking grasp once). The book also has other kinds of rune magic you could use.

I'm trying to steer the players away from going caster classes, both for fluff and balance reasons, so these options aren't really viable (since they will also likely not have access to any spellcasting services either)


The 3.0 ed Runescarred Berseker class from Unapproachable East allows a barbarian type to make enchanted scars on his own skin that allow him to cast one-use spells on himself (they are like scrolls he carries on his own skin).

Another option would be to let them discover rituals that give the non-caster characters templates like Dreadnaught (Book of Templates) or Half-fey.

I'd also like to refrain from templates like that, my last game had the players eventually transform into outsiders of various types, so I want to avoid such things this game

[Emperor Tippy]

Take Vow of Poverty, file off all of the bits about poverty and being exalted, require that all of the Bonus Feats be from Tome of Battle or other selected sources, remove the limit on how many times Martial Study can be taken, let the players at as if IL=HD for purposes of these feats.

Be done. That should solve 99% of the problems without real balance issues or the like.

I have customized rules for non magic item games but they wouldn't really work fluff wise with your world.

[ArcturusV]

Odd thought: You might want to see if you can look into the Dragonlance setting. The state your world sounds like it's at sounds kinda similar to the timeframe of the War of the Lance. Big fiery doomageddon which ends up wiping out all Divine Magic (Because mortals turn their back on it rather than actually not being available, because Mortals are pissed that the God of Godness Armageddon'd them...). Mages almost entirely unheard of, hiding from the world, and the Test to become a mage basically being a deathtrap that means almost no one becomes a Mage.

I don't have the dragonlance rulebooks... but I'd THINK since that is such a key, obvious moment to the setting the rulebook would probably cover it, and might give some ideas for how groups like the Knights of Solamnia deal with absolutely no magic remaining in their order.

[Aasimar]

This variant skews things incalculably in favor of casters. I suggest, if you want this to work, that you ban full casting classes outright.

Bard is probably on the line as to what you should allow, I lean towards no, but a case can be made for it.

[Crake]

This variant skews things incalculably in favor of casters. I suggest, if you want this to work, that you ban full casting classes outright.

Bard is probably on the line as to what you should allow, I lean towards no, but a case can be made for it.

I'm not gonna outright ban full casting, if a player really wants to play a full casting class, they can, but they'll have to understand the social implications of doing so. They'd essentially be ostracized from the community, have a very bad name, and in a cityscape game, that actually means something. I tend to run pretty heavy roleplay games rather than combat heavy ones, so being all powerful in combat (which to be fair, isn't really the case at level 1 for most casters anyway) isn't such a big deal. It'll be highly discouraged, but I'm not gonna outright ban it.

[mabriss lethe]

You might think about moving away from 3.5. For this sort of game, I've gotten rather good results from giving Star Wars Saga Edition a fantasy themed repaint.

[Yawgmoth]

Firstly, I would suggest literally any system but D&D. It's heavily embedded into the rules that PCs have access to X magic items and Y spellcasting. The amount of alteration you'll have to do to absolutely every single encounter is staggering.

If you're dead-set on this being a D&D game, I'd suggest my house rule w/r/t ability scores: instead of +1 point every 4 levels, you pick a stat every 3 levels. That stat and each previous stat go up by 2. Then remove all stat-boosting items from the game. I would then also suggest removing save-or-die effects and give the PCs Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement effects at appropriate levels.

[Crake]

Firstly, I would suggest literally any system but D&D. It's heavily embedded into the rules that PCs have access to X magic items and Y spellcasting. The amount of alteration you'll have to do to absolutely every single encounter is staggering.

If you're dead-set on this being a D&D game, I'd suggest my house rule w/r/t ability scores: instead of +1 point every 4 levels, you pick a stat every 3 levels. That stat and each previous stat go up by 2. Then remove all stat-boosting items from the game. I would then also suggest removing save-or-die effects and give the PCs Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement effects at appropriate levels.

Most of the combat will be against either other, similarly mundane, NPCs or against mostly mundane vermin/animals/monsters. I try to steer clear of save or dies anyway, as I don't really like them much as a mechanic. On the rare occasion I throw a highly magical monster their way, I'll probably give them ample forewarning and allow them to prepare/get the jump on the monster, but overall I much prefer encounters that involve smart thinking, like chess, rather than arms race sort of encounters where everything just escalates over the top.

I'd probably want to stick to 3.5 if at all possible, since it's really the only system I know, and I know it pretty damn well.

[JusticeZero]

I'm not gonna outright ban full casting, if a player really wants to play a full casting class, they can, but they'll have to understand the social implications of doing so. They'd essentially be ostracized from the community, have a very bad name, and in a cityscape game, that actually means something.
If a character literally has enough power and versatility that they can legitimately declare that they are a God, and nobody in the setting is able to muster the power and ability to challenge their claim, they simply are not going to care about the "social implications". In a game with no magic items, a full T1 caster will hit this point sometime in the early teens at the latest. Seriously, you are not grasping the power difference here.

[Malroth]

Easiest way to balance this no item game is to ban Tiers 5 and 6 and strongly discourage tiers 3 and 4 Casters can take care of themselves with normal or self made gear despite any disapproval from the few NPCs that will find out the PC's are casters while Mundane classes are assumed to have complete Magic mart access to even be remotely capable even at their defined roles and are completely out of their element when it comes to anything besides dealing damage to other mundanes.

[Crake]

If a character literally has enough power and versatility that they can legitimately declare that they are a God, and nobody in the setting is able to muster the power and ability to challenge their claim, they simply are not going to care about the "social implications". In a game with no magic items, a full T1 caster will hit this point sometime in the early teens at the latest. Seriously, you are not grasping the power difference here.

If they start letting the power get to their head, there *are* other casters in the setting that don't want to see magic return to an execute on suspicion status that will keep them in check. But I don't expect the optimization level of the players to go beyond fireball sorcerer/wizard tops. Not to mention if they publicize their magic, they immediately jump to the top of every evil magic user's watch/kill list.

Edit: Essentially if they start flaunting their power overtly and stupidly, their character would be swiftly either killed or run out of town, either situation resulting in the necessity to re-roll

[Theoboldi]

If they start letting the power get to their head, there *are* other casters in the setting that don't want to see magic return to an execute on suspicion status that will keep them in check. But I don't expect the optimization level of the players to go beyond fireball sorcerer/wizard tops. Not to mention if they publicize their magic, they immediately jump to the top of every evil magic user's watch/kill list.

Edit: Essentially if they start flaunting their power overtly and stupidly, their character would be swiftly either killed or run out of town, either situation resulting in the necessity to re-roll

If you are really going to do this, be very wary of enchantments and divinations. Those things can be godlike in an intrigue and socially based campaign, especially when one fights mostly against mundanes who don't have an defense against these besides making their saving throws.

[ArqArturo]

I would have to agree on moving to another system, but, I'm also working on a low-magic game based on the Viking Age, so I'm probably gonna sound as a hypocrite.

Instead, I would recommend looking on the Pathfinder's Words of Power (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html) rules variant. It gives magic a bit more primal feel, and it's just cool.

From items, I'm gonna say that I agree on reworking on VoP. Also, very importantly, limit revival and teleportation. Anything that moves you quickly is a bit of a turn-off, as well as bringing someone back from the dead. For Teleportation, I suggest to let it under stone-circles, or very specific places in very specific times. On reviving, consider the rules on Heroes of Horror :).


If you are really going to do this, be very wary of enchantments and divinations. Those things can be godlike in an intrigue and socially based campaign, especially when one fights mostly against mundanes who don't have an defense against these besides making their saving throws.

I've noticed in past games, that the most mundane items, and some clever wordplay, are the best tools against magical divination. My BBEG was a noble with no magic, save a few non-detection items here and there, but most of the times, he got away with things by misdirection, use of mooks that had mooks that also had mooks that received his very vague orders (via unsuspecting recipients), non-magical disguises, indirect answers, misleading, massive use of Bluff, and actively helping the players when it was convenient.

The fun part? Yes, they slew the great Demon, they torched the temple, and made the goddess ran and lick her wounds, but the BBEG lived to tell the tale, and only in the end, at the beginning of another campaign, did it fell on them that he was actually a villain :smallamused:.

[Crake]

I would have to agree on moving to another system, but, I'm also working on a low-magic game based on the Viking Age, so I'm probably gonna sound as a hypocrite.

Instead, I would recommend looking on the Pathfinder's Words of Power (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicWordsOfPower.html) rules variant. It gives magic a bit more primal feel, and it's just cool.

From items, I'm gonna say that I agree on reworking on VoP. Also, very importantly, limit revival and teleportation. Anything that moves you quickly is a bit of a turn-off, as well as bringing someone back from the dead. For Teleportation, I suggest to let it under stone-circles, or very specific places in very specific times. On reviving, consider the rules on Heroes of Horror :).

Hmm, that words of power variant looks pretty interesting. If I have the idea correctly, I was actually thinking about making a variant similar to that for a while (not specifically for this game, just a pet project I always wanted to work on) to make spellcasting more creative. Essentially custom spellcasting on the fly, right?

[ArqArturo]

Pretty much, yes.

[JusticeZero]

If they start letting the power get to their head, there *are* other casters in the setting that don't want to see magic return to an execute on suspicion status that will keep them in check. But I don't expect the optimization level of the players to go beyond fireball sorcerer/wizard tops. Not to mention if they publicize their magic, they immediately jump to the top of every evil magic user's watch/kill list.
Translation: If a caster figures out how to play their character, the entire campaign will be scrapped in favor of "The GM tries to throw huge monsters at the spellcaster that will instantly slaughter anyone else in the party that dares try to stand between the two." This is also known as "I am willing to destroy my own campaign just to punish one of my players for playing their character effectively." See also, "How to be a bad GM 101".

[Crake]

Translation: If a caster figures out how to play their character, the entire campaign will be scrapped in favor of "The GM tries to throw huge monsters at the spellcaster that will instantly slaughter anyone else in the party that dares try to stand between the two." This is also known as "I am willing to destroy my own campaign just to punish one of my players for playing their character effectively." See also, "How to be a bad GM 101".

No, that would just happen offscreen, the players aren't gonna spend days and nights with eachother, they each have their own homes and whatnot. It won't turn into a roll-fest, I'll simply give a short dialogue as to what happened and the player will re-rolll. He will also be thoroughly informed before we begin play the potential consequences of his actions, so it's not gonna be out of the blue either.

[JusticeZero]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just remove the classes completely?

I'm reminded of an online game or three. MUDs. I don't recall exactly which ones.

They decided that PVP was bad. Players shouldn't kill each other.

So they had all sorts of rules and report actions and unkillable guard monsters and so on so forth to punish anyone who attacked another player, which of course was abused and generally caused lots of headaches and hand wringing and drama and sucked down days of work to get people angry at them.

Here's the thing: It is all of two minutes of work to adjust the "attack" command to not work on other players.

If you don't want X, then don't allow X, otherwise you're just being a jerk by letting people play things that they actually can't play.

[NichG]

Societal implications are a very poor balance for innate power in a tabletop RPG. Going this route is a far bigger problem for the health of your campaign than any issues you might have with the fighter having a hard time dealing with flying enemies or incorporeal things (not that those aren't problems, but the whole 'society will enforce arbitrary stigma with overwhelming force' thing will basically turn the game into party-vs-society and shred whatever other plans you had).

If someone plays a caster, they will want to cast. If they cast and use magic to save people, they will feel that society is evil for punishing them for saving people. Because this evil is 'personal' to them, they will 90% of the time make it their goal (and rope the party along with) to overthrow this evil society. If its a secretive group of powerful mages that use magic to punish other mages who break the status quo, its even worse, because that looks like its supposed to be the villain of the campaign, so the player may not even realize they've gone off the map.

Putting aside mechanical balance implications and whatever, just don't go this route. It will not end well.

That's not to say 'don't run a low magic game', but just outright ban the full casters. Or require all full casting classes to be taken at a rate of at most one out of every three levels, due to the rarity of magical knowledge in the setting to actually learn advanced magic from, and drop the direct societal implications stuff from 'the wizard secret police kill you in your sleep' to 'people fear you and tend to be unfriendly and unhelpful, but also non-confrontational'.

And don't imagine the societal implications will somehow balance the caster - its setting detail and fluff, which is important in its own right, but it isn't a mechanical counterweight.

[Crake]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just remove the classes completely?

I'm reminded of an online game or three. MUDs. I don't recall exactly which ones.

They decided that PVP was bad. Players shouldn't kill each other.

So they had all sorts of rules and report actions and unkillable guard monsters and so on so forth to punish anyone who attacked another player, which of course was abused and generally caused lots of headaches and hand wringing and drama and sucked down days of work to get people angry at them.

Here's the thing: It is all of two minutes of work to adjust the "attack" command to not work on other players.

If you don't want X, then don't allow X, otherwise you're just being a jerk by letting people play things that they actually can't play.

Well as I said, the classes will be highly discouraged, but if a player is willing to play under the restrictions and limitations as a challenge, or because it fits with a character idea they have in mind, I'm more than willing to work with them on that. If they abuse it, then the privilege will be revoked and they can think of a different character idea. You said "punish one of my players for playing their character effectively." but if they're breaking the restrictions that they know are in place, then they aren't really playing the character effectively.

[JusticeZero]

You are rephrasing exactly what we are saying is a bad idea. It's a little bit like saying "I'm not keeping him prisoner in a cell, i'm just not letting him leave his small room under any circumstances."
seriously, just say "No wizards, druids, clerics, or sorcerers." There! You've done all you need to do!

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, it would be:

"No archivists, artificers, clerics, druids, psions, wizards, death masters, favored souls, mystics, sha'irs, shamans, sorcerers, spirit shamans or wu jen."

[JusticeZero]

Well, yeah. "No full casters" would do it too. But it is a lot more workable than the moral and GMing equivalent of leaving a steak on the floor in front of the dog and standing over it with a baseball bat to stop it from stealing the steak.

[Crake]

Well, yeah. "No full casters" would do it too. But it is a lot more workable than the moral and GMing equivalent of leaving a steak on the floor in front of the dog and standing over it with a baseball bat to stop it from stealing the steak.

Listen, perhaps you've had bad experiences with players in the past, but I generally trust my players to either accept the restrictions I present them for the sake of having fun, or to not play under them, just as they trust me to make the game fun for them. The whole gentleman's agreement thing. Anyway, this thread was more about buffing mundanes rather than dealing with full casters, so would it be possible for you to put your personal feelings about how I would like to run my game and either contribute, or observe?

[JusticeZero]

I've had bad experiences with GMs before, specifically. The thing you are proposing is at least on par with "I'm building a PC to go along with you and he is awesome and everyone likes them and they have this cool build and.." in terms of things that make us drop down to morbid curiosity.

[Crake]

I've had bad experiences with GMs before, specifically. The thing you are proposing is at least on par with "I'm building a PC to go along with you and he is awesome and everyone likes them and they have this cool build and.." in terms of things that make us drop down to morbid curiosity.

You've made your point, can we just agree to disagree and move on?

[JusticeZero]

You asked how to run a game with very few magic items. Restricting casters is absolutely vital to that. Saying "I'll just assassinate them if they cross a line that only I know the boundary of" is the single worst and most destructive way of doing that.

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. You asked the question. You are getting an answer.

[Crake]

You asked how to run a game with very few magic items. Restricting casters is absolutely vital to that. Saying "I'll just assassinate them if they cross a line that only I know the boundary of" is the single worst and most destructive way of doing that.

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. You asked the question. You are getting an answer.

If you hadn't noticed, there were plenty of constructive suggestions before you waded in with your self righteous need to police everyone else's campaigns. I'm pretty transparent with my "lines", and this isn't the first game I've run under restrictions similar to this. I've run a game where any proof of casting was an immediate death sentance, with a beguiler, a duskblade and a ninja, and the game ran fine. So just because you've had bad previous experiences, don't go parading your personal opinions as fact.

[Captnq]

I made this.

It was beautiful. It was a work of art. it was sublime in it's beauty and perfection. It's flawlessness was only matched in it's utter monumental failure.

It's not fun.

Now, I don't know your players. Maybe they requested this. But it's not fun. I had a setting where an entire plane of the Abyss became self-aware and tried to eat the multi-universe and was tricked into devowering itself. The players got to live inside an imploding universe of dwindling magic.

It was supposed to be an epic heroic journey to save a reality and it was a complete and utter failure.

Low magic games just don't work well. I don't know why. I LOVE the idea as a DM but it never seems to work or last.

But, if you refuse to heed my warnings of doom and dire consequences should you continue on your fool errand. Then allow me to help as much as i can. Perhaps you will succeed where I failed.


Step One: Check out my Weapon Handbook (See Sig). You're going to want to look at the alchemy, poison, exotic materials section. Focus on anything you can make without magic. Your treasure needs to be complicated mechanical crap. Dart Thrusters. Spike Shooters. Misters. Sprayers. Weapon Capsules. There are many alchemy based things you can hand out as treasure.

Step two: Here is my list of Spellcasting classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).


I would only allow the following spellcasting PrCs:
Bone Collector
Cultist of the Shattered Peak
Harper Scout
Merchant Prince
Telflammar Shadowlord
Trapsmith
Knight of the Middle Circle

Because none of them can cast a spell higher then 3rd.

MAYBE:
Vadalis Beastkeeper
Ocular Adept
Animal Lord
Assassin
Beloved of Valaria
Blackguard
Celebrant of Sharess
Champion of Gwynharwyf
Consecrated Harrier
Corrupt Avenger
Death Delver
Ebonmar Infiltrator
Emissaries of Barachiel
Fatemaker
Hoardstealer
Holy Liberator
Hunter of the Dead
Justicar of Taiia
Justice of Weald and Woe
Knight of the Chalice
Mortal Hunter
Pious Templar
Prime Underdark Guide
Scaled Horror
Shade Hunter
Slayer of Domiel
Soldier of Light
Templar
Temple Raider
Thayan Slaver
Vassals of Bahamut
Vigilante
Windrider
Demonologist


These guys can cast up to 4th level spells, so this is pushing it for spellcasters. But THAT'S IT for PrC spellcasters.

now, for base classes:
Hexblade
Paladin
Ranger
Sohei
Spellthief

These guys can't cast over 4th level spells.


And Finally, here are your heavy hitter spellcasters:
Adept
Magewright
Duskblade

Adept, Magewright and Duskblade would be your superstars in your world because they can actually cast... get this... 5th LEVEL SPELLS!!! An Adept could actually RAISE DEAD at 16th level!!! And the Elven Duskblade, well, he'd be a frickin' superstar on this planet.

But if you are going to limit spells, that's what you got to work with. I wouldn't even allow any other PrCs. Make them deal with these bargan basement, dumpster diving classes. Then, when they finally get a spell that does something, they'll be grateful.

now me? I'd leave off all the PrCs that can cast 4th level spells and the base classes that can cast 5th. But that's just me.

[ArcturusV]

Well, if you ever do get worried about the Wizard breaking the game over your knee, there is one thing I used successfully with a group in a "low magic" world. The wizard no longer got Spells on Leveling automatically. Because the world was Low Magic, he couldn't just walk into a town and buy scrolls or spellbooks to add to his collection. His spells were all the result of Loot/Quest rewards, or occasionally spell research. This allowed me to control which "I win" buttons were on the table, not to mention additional quest hooks. You could see the wizard player's face light up when they hear something about "An evil man who is known to summon demons" or something and they're instantly thinking "I want to kill his ass and learn to summon demons!". With innate casters like Bards and Sorcerers it was just a simple "Agree on your spells known" metric, on top of a rule about reasonable evolution of power. If the sorcerer's first level spells were all sleep, color spray, and maybe magic missile because I've never seen one not take magic missile, when they hit second level spells they don't suddenly get Alter Self, False Life, etc. Because it has nothing to do with their "Innate" Powers and how it has been manifesting. Keeps them on theme and character, and less on just cherry picking. Again my group didn't have issues with it, yours might I suppose. but it's an option to consider if you are worried.

... thankfully no one in my games ever wants to play a Divine Caster other than a Paladin or a Ranger, so I never really had to find a patch for that "I know all spells all the time".

[Crake]

Now, I don't know your players. Maybe they requested this.

Actually, this is a time-skip forward of the aforementioned game, back by popular demand so to speak.



Step One: Check out my Weapon Handbook (See Sig). You're going to want to look at the alchemy, poison, exotic materials section. Focus on anything you can make without magic. Your treasure needs to be complicated mechanical crap. Dart Thrusters. Spike Shooters. Misters. Sprayers. Weapon Capsules. There are many alchemy based things you can hand out as treasure.

Mechanical solutions actually fit quite well in the campaign, in the absense of magic for so long, technology has made slow and steady advances. 100 years post this game, magic is actually completely destroyed in a second cataclysm, and technology completely takes over (the setting actually transitions into d20 modern), so I'm liking including stuff like this.



Step two: Here is my list of Spellcasting classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).


I would only allow the following spellcasting PrCs:
...

Because none of them can cast a spell higher then 3rd.

MAYBE:
...


These guys can cast up to 4th level spells, so this is pushing it for spellcasters. But THAT'S IT for PrC spellcasters.

now, for base classes:
...

These guys can't cast over 4th level spells.


And Finally, here are your heavy hitter spellcasters:
...

Adept, Magewright and Duskblade would be your superstars in your world because they can actually cast... get this... 5th LEVEL SPELLS!!! An Adept could actually RAISE DEAD at 16th level!!! And the Elven Duskblade, well, he'd be a frickin' superstar on this planet.

But if you are going to limit spells, that's what you got to work with. I wouldn't even allow any other PrCs. Make them deal with these bargan basement, dumpster diving classes. Then, when they finally get a spell that does something, they'll be grateful.

now me? I'd leave off all the PrCs that can cast 4th level spells and the base classes that can cast 5th. But that's just me.

This bit I'm not entirely happy with. Full casting is definitely available and possible in the world, but attaining it requires a careful walk across hot coals, so to speak. A perfect balance of keeping unnoticed, while still gaining power, and learning about the other, hidden big players. I don't want to deprive the players the chance at having their character potentially go down in the history of my campaign should they play their cards right.

Taking one of those classes though, would definitely lower their profile, and does offer the players access to magic at a lower risk profile, which I'm fine with offering them


Well, if you ever do get worried about the Wizard breaking the game over your knee, there is one thing I used successfully with a group in a "low magic" world. The wizard no longer got Spells on Leveling automatically. Because the world was Low Magic, he couldn't just walk into a town and buy scrolls or spellbooks to add to his collection. His spells were all the result of Loot/Quest rewards, or occasionally spell research. This allowed me to control which "I win" buttons were on the table, not to mention additional quest hooks. You could see the wizard player's face light up when they hear something about "An evil man who is known to summon demons" or something and they're instantly thinking "I want to kill his ass and learn to summon demons!". With innate casters like Bards and Sorcerers it was just a simple "Agree on your spells known" metric, on top of a rule about reasonable evolution of power. If the sorcerer's first level spells were all sleep, color spray, and maybe magic missile because I've never seen one not take magic missile, when they hit second level spells they don't suddenly get Alter Self, False Life, etc. Because it has nothing to do with their "Innate" Powers and how it has been manifesting. Keeps them on theme and character, and less on just cherry picking. Again my group didn't have issues with it, yours might I suppose. but it's an option to consider if you are worried.

... thankfully no one in my games ever wants to play a Divine Caster other than a Paladin or a Ranger, so I never really had to find a patch for that "I know all spells all the time".

I was actually thinking of enforcing the words of power variant mentioned earlier in the thread for arcane casters and nature based divine casters, and yeah, that would be quite fitting for words of power to not be easily accessible/researched, so finding them becomes a reason to quest for the caster in the first place. The city the game is taking place in is incredibly old, and has a very strong magical history. Despite the book burning that happened over the past 1400 years, the city itself was crafted with magic, and has many secrets that citizens wouldn't even begin to imagine, so it's quite plausible to have dilapidated repositories of knowledge hidden here and there with a word of power or two.

Clerics on the other hand have to answer to their god, so they have their own built in "off" button.

[Captnq]

This bit I'm not entirely happy with. Full casting is definitely available and possible in the world, but attaining it requires a careful walk across hot coals, so to speak. A perfect balance of keeping unnoticed, while still gaining power, and learning about the other, hidden big players. I don't want to deprive the players the chance at having their character potentially go down in the history of my campaign should they play their cards right.

Taking one of those classes though, would definitely lower their profile, and does offer the players access to magic at a lower risk profile, which I'm fine with offering them


Sorry. I just realized you may not play with the same house rules as I do.

I basically run under a "order of the stick" universe. People know Pi=4, and that fireballs have square corners and that people have levels and xps and that a gp is an actual unit of magical energy.

It's sort of the stuff you learn at school. Like figuring out that the three angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees. In my campaign people ACTUALLY know what levels they have and what those levels are called and speak to each other like,
"Oh yeah, I totally sneak attacked that demon!"
"how much?"
"Easy fifty hit points. Easy."
*low whistle sound*

I don't play with training to gain a level if it's a class you already have. You actually get a little *ding* over your head when you level. The players suggested it, so I ran with it.

My point is, I also allow retraining, so if you make a mistake, you can take some time off and fix it. You just need someone to teach you and one week a level you want to back up and redo.

I'm suggesting that everyone has to start out with crappy classes and crappy spells and crappy choices, but as they adventure they find... Holy crap, it's a WIZARDS' SPELLBOOK!!! MY GOD, It's a TEMPLE to the lost God of FLOOPHY-PHANTS!

So... anyone gonna take a few weeks and retrain as a (fill in the blank)?

That way, not only are you rewarding them with magic items, you are rewarding them with classes that DO NOT SUCK.

[Crake]

Sorry. I just realized you may not play with the same house rules as I do.

I basically run under a "order of the stick" universe. People know Pi=4, and that fireballs have square corners and that people have levels and xps and that a gp is an actual unit of magical energy.

It's sort of the stuff you learn at school. Like figuring out that the three angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees. In my campaign people ACTUALLY know what levels they have and what those levels are called and speak to each other like,
"Oh yeah, I totally sneak attacked that demon!"
"how much?"
"Easy fifty hit points. Easy."
*low whistle sound*

I don't play with training to gain a level if it's a class you already have. You actually get a little *ding* over your head when you level. The players suggested it, so I ran with it.

My point is, I also allow retraining, so if you make a mistake, you can take some time off and fix it. You just need someone to teach you and one week a level you want to back up and redo.

I'm suggesting that everyone has to start out with crappy classes and crappy spells and crappy choices, but as they adventure they find... Holy crap, it's a WIZARDS' SPELLBOOK!!! MY GOD, It's a TEMPLE to the lost God of FLOOPHY-PHANTS!

So... anyone gonna take a few weeks and retrain as a (fill in the blank)?

That way, not only are you rewarding them with magic items, you are rewarding them with classes that DO NOT SUCK.

oh yeah, I can see what you're saying, that's an interesting idea actually, and it helps enforce the feeling of having an entry barrier to those kinds of magic, nice

[Yawgmoth]

No, that would just happen offscreen, the players aren't gonna spend days and nights with eachother, they each have their own homes and whatnot. It won't turn into a roll-fest, I'll simply give a short dialogue as to what happened and the player will re-rolll. He will also be thoroughly informed before we begin play the potential consequences of his actions, so it's not gonna be out of the blue either. If I ever had a DM that said "no rolls or potential to survive, I'm just gonna give you this screed on how your character definitely dies because of the secret magic police" it would be not only the last time I played with them, but the last time I spoke to them or acknowledged them as a person.

We don't know your players, their style, or what they enjoy. We don't know you. None of us have played with you, or even spoken to you in any depth outside this thread. But we've all played this game long enough to know certain universal red flags, and "don't do things I don't like or I'll fiat kill your character" is almost universally going to get a response of "I have better things to do on wednesday nights, like alphabetizing my compost."

And since I'm curious and it'll likely get you better responses, what is your game going to be about, anyways? Because when I see "there used to be no magic, but now it's slowly coming back, also you can be a pure caster" what I hear is "play a pure caster, conquer the world".

[Crake]

If I ever had a DM that said "no rolls or potential to survive, I'm just gonna give you this screed on how your character definitely dies because of the secret magic police" it would be not only the last time I played with them, but the last time I spoke to them or acknowledged them as a person.

We don't know your players, their style, or what they enjoy. We don't know you. None of us have played with you, or even spoken to you in any depth outside this thread. But we've all played this game long enough to know certain universal red flags, and "don't do things I don't like or I'll fiat kill your character" is almost universally going to get a response of "I have better things to do on wednesday nights, like alphabetizing my compost."

And since I'm curious and it'll likely get you better responses, what is your game going to be about, anyways? Because when I see "there used to be no magic, but now it's slowly coming back, also you can be a pure caster" what I hear is "play a pure caster, conquer the world".

"Play a pure caster, conquer the world" is definitely a sentiment that can be followed in the game, if the players want to go down that path, however they aren't the only ones in the setting who follow that sentiment, and they definitely aren't the first. I tend to run very player-driven campaigns, the players define their ambitions. I'll throw in a "main quest" plot that's usually very time-insensitive, giving the players ample time to focus on their personal pet projects.

I want to try and keep the game limited to a single city, however, I'm 100% fine with the scope expanding should the players' ambitions require it to.

For example, lets say one of the players DID want to conquer the world. The other players can be in on it, or they could possibly simply be hired by the first player as mercs, then either develop into second-in-command, or possibly be approached by the competition to act as a spy. The conquering player may want to garner favor with the various factions in the city to perhaps perform a coup of the city's leadership, or however the player wants to go about gaining power. The only thing is he cant do it ridiculously overtly, as, as i said, that would attract the attention of other high level casters, who would immediately jump in if they felt it necessary. Each time the player wants to do something that would possibly attract attention, I would warn him that what he's doing could bring eyes on him. So it wouldn't be "all of a sudden, your character gets ganked, re-roll". I'd make sure he knows it's coming. Essentially it would be a roleplay encounter that the player fails.

If a level 5 fighter walks in on a balor, after getting ample warning that there was a balor ahead, and you didnt roll the combat out with dice, would you still feel cheated?

Edit: Just to add, that post was more to reinforce that, should one of the players go over the top, it wouldn't result in the whole party getting curb stomped by the other competitors in this game of global chess. How things go down is incredibly dependent on circumstance

[ArcturusV]

Eh. I usually still roll it out. Because if your level 5 wizard gets too over his head, and pisses off something he shouldn't? The combat isn't going to last more than a round or two anyway. I mean it'll probably go:

Roll Initiative, oh look, your level 5 character lost compared to the level 15 character who has higher stats, magic gear, feats, spells, etc to ensure he goes first because that's only logical they would do that, as Going First equals Win when you're talking about magic.

Oh look, he pities you and uses a relatively low level Empowered Fireball that inflicts 45 damage on you, reflex save for half. Oh, you only have d4 HD and 21 HP? And you have a poor reflex save anyway? Well... dip.

I mean really that's as long as it usually takes. You lose out on maybe 2-3 minutes of playing time to roll the dice on a total curbstomp like that. And really are they any less butthurt than if you didn't roll? I wouldn't know. But at the very least they can't say you "Cheated" so much. Unless they come up with this complaint I sometimes hear and am kinda miffed at when I do... that the encounter wasn't "Fair" and all encounters have to be balanced and fair somehow. Granted, better if most are... but sometimes you just piss something off over your head. And I always feel worlds seem "strange" when everything just conveniently happens to end up near your CR/Level no matter where you go, what you do.

Granted... I'm the ass who, in one campaign where a guy rerolled for a 9th level character he decided to go Vampire Sorcerer. Immediately tried to cow the first village he ran into as part of... some "I'm a badass vampire" thing. And the next time he came back after announcing he was a vampire, would be back, and would keep killing and eating people as he wished, he ran into a mob of about 150 commoners all throwing Holy Water at him. So I'm not the guy who's going to come down on a player's side when they logically piss off things they shouldn't.

[Crake]

Eh. I usually still roll it out. Because if your level 5 wizard gets too over his head, and pisses off something he shouldn't? The combat isn't going to last more than a round or two anyway. I mean it'll probably go:

Roll Initiative, oh look, your level 5 character lost compared to the level 15 character who has higher stats, magic gear, feats, spells, etc to ensure he goes first because that's only logical they would do that, as Going First equals Win when you're talking about magic.

Oh look, he pities you and uses a relatively low level Empowered Fireball that inflicts 45 damage on you, reflex save for half. Oh, you only have d4 HD and 21 HP? And you have a poor reflex save anyway? Well... dip.

I mean really that's as long as it usually takes. You lose out on maybe 2-3 minutes of playing time to roll the dice on a total curbstomp like that. And really are they any less butthurt than if you didn't roll? I wouldn't know. But at the very least they can't say you "Cheated" so much. Unless they come up with this complaint I sometimes hear and am kinda miffed at when I do... that the encounter wasn't "Fair" and all encounters have to be balanced and fair somehow. Granted, better if most are... but sometimes you just piss something off over your head. And I always feel worlds seem "strange" when everything just conveniently happens to end up near your CR/Level no matter where you go, what you do.

Granted... I'm the ass who, in one campaign where a guy rerolled for a 9th level character he decided to go Vampire Sorcerer. Immediately tried to cow the first village he ran into as part of... some "I'm a badass vampire" thing. And the next time he came back after announcing he was a vampire, would be back, and would keep killing and eating people as he wished, he ran into a mob of about 150 commoners all throwing Holy Water at him. So I'm not the guy who's going to come down on a player's side when they logically piss off things they shouldn't.

That's fair enough, I was just imagining closing the curtain to spare the player the pain of watching his character get shredded. Also yeah, that post was more to emphasize that such player action wouldn't come and screw with players who weren't necessarily involved.

I also feel I should add that, at least the way I meant it, offscreen doesn't mean in the absence of all players, simply not at the gaming table. It would likely be resolved either in a private session with the player, or over skype with the player.

[NichG]

Eh. I usually still roll it out. Because if your level 5 wizard gets too over his head, and pisses off something he shouldn't? The combat isn't going to last more than a round or two anyway. I mean it'll probably go:

There are lots of problems in this situation of course, but given a DM who for whatever reason needs to proceed with a fiat kill, there's a big downside to rolling it out.

Namely, what do you do if the PC wins? Ostensibly you're going down this route because the PC as it currently stands will cause some sort of harm to the campaign. And (for whatever reason) you've committed to resolving that problem in character rather than with out of character discussion. So basically, you're making a bet - either I (my high-level NPC) thought of everything and win, or we start a new campaign.

This is why the 'hey knock it off' out of character is the infinitely better tool. The player can't hide behind 'hey, I beat your challenge' or 'what I'm doing is rules legit' if you actually tell them the real reason why their particular behavior is problematic and leave it to them to narrate how their character leaves the campaign.

[Crake]

There are lots of problems in this situation of course, but given a DM who for whatever reason needs to proceed with a fiat kill, there's a big downside to rolling it out.

Namely, what do you do if the PC wins? Ostensibly you're going down this route because the PC as it currently stands will cause some sort of harm to the campaign. And (for whatever reason) you've committed to resolving that problem in character rather than with out of character discussion. So basically, you're making a bet - either I (my high-level NPC) thought of everything and win, or we start a new campaign.

This is why the 'hey knock it off' out of character is the infinitely better tool. The player can't hide behind 'hey, I beat your challenge' or 'what I'm doing is rules legit' if you actually tell them the real reason why their particular behavior is problematic and leave it to them to narrate how their character leaves the campaign.

Yeah, the 'hey knock it off' approach would definitely be my first avenue. The fiat kill/running the character out of the city thing would probably only occur when both me and the player agree that his character overstepped the line, or when he so oversteps it that his competition would have no real reason to let him continue living

[Sith_Happens]

This bit I'm not entirely happy with. Full casting is definitely available and possible in the world, but attaining it requires a careful walk across hot coals, so to speak. A perfect balance of keeping unnoticed, while still gaining power, and learning about the other, hidden big players.

Except that the current biggest player has already conquered the world and made it look nothing like what you think it looks like. Simply put, a world that shuns magic cannot stand in the face of high-level magic, and it only takes so much shunning for someone to decide that changing society's attitude is a worthy use of their Unlimited Cosmic Power.

[Coidzor]

Except that the current biggest player has already conquered the world and made it look nothing like what you think it looks like. Simply put, a world that shuns magic cannot stand in the face of high-level magic, and it only takes so much shunning for someone to decide that changing society's attitude is a worthy use of their Unlimited Cosmic Power.

Either that or they're hoarding it all for themselves and so encourage that attitude so that when it crops up in new people they stand out like sore thumbs for his ice assassin gestapo. :smallconfused:

But at that point...

[Vaz]

It sounds a bit like the perfect setting to unleash a new gameplay system: Tome of Battle, Psionics and Incarnum fit perfectly.

Small covens of Spontaneous Arcane Spellcasters would work well; perhaps let the PC's be those who reintroduce magic: perhaps they could be the equivalent of Wizards among muggles, either keep it hidden and be the secret defense against a voldemort which the muggles have no knowledge of, or they could join him: but be up against the Order of the Phoenix.

Things lime the Dispassoonate Watchers of chronepsis refluffed could be that Team America world police. Nothing suggests power like a Dragon, and lets magic be in the world.

That means one of two things: for the greater safety, the magic world is kept hidden, and the players can either join in (introducing Voldemort/Hogwarts etc), or go back to keeping it low key (so no big Flashy spells like Fireball, fly, etc).