I am deeply offended.

[visigani]

Telekinetic Maneuver allows one to use their Intelligence bonus for telekinetic maneuver.... whereas the Spell version allows one to use their Intelligence or Charisma.

Is there a fix for this somewhere because it just seems bizarre.

Where it not for that little tidbit Wilders could be extremely potent with Telekinetic Maneuver.

Let's say a lvl 20 Wilder with a Charisma based Telekinetic Maneuver, improved grapple, and say 30 Charisma (+10 Charisma bonus)?

I believe, if they used their wild surge (+6) and augmentation their grapple check would be:

Manifester Level+Augmentation+Stat Modifier+Feat Bonus:
26+9+10+4=49

You would have a significant edge over a gargantuan purple worm.

[Ortesk]

Telekinetic Maneuver allows one to use their Intelligence bonus for telekinetic maneuver.... whereas the Spell version allows one to use their Intelligence or Charisma.

Is there a fix for this somewhere because it just seems bizarre.

Where it not for that little tidbit Wilders could be extremely potent with Telekinetic Maneuver.

Let's say a lvl 20 Wilder with a Charisma based Telekinetic Maneuver, improved grapple, and say 30 Charisma (+10 Charisma bonus)?

I believe, if they used their wild surge (+6) and augmentation their grapple check would be:

Manifester Level+Augmentation+Stat Modifier+Feat Bonus:
26+9+10+4=49

You would have a significant edge over a gargantuan purple worm.

Not bad, its somewhat good but not great. Freedom of movememnt, a proper built grappler...

[The Grue]

Telekinetic Maneuver allows one to use their Intelligence bonus for telekinetic maneuver.... whereas the Spell version allows one to use their Intelligence or Charisma.

Is there a fix for this somewhere because it just seems bizarre.

The fix is called Rule Zero. "Hey GM, I think it's dumb that Telekinetic Maneuver only uses Intelligence, where the Spell version lets you use Int or Cha. How about we houserule that you can use Cha here too?"

[CyberThread]

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/leve


Question... if you fail on your roll, and you still concentrat on the target for the next round, are they considered to still be grappling so unable to do any other action, even if they win?

[visigani]

The fix is called Rule Zero. "Hey GM, I think it's dumb that Telekinetic Maneuver only uses Intelligence, where the Spell version lets you use Int or Cha. How about we houserule that you can use Cha here too?"

The one reason I can think the Devs didn't make it charisma and intelligence is specifically because of wilders.

At level 20 wild surge alone would grant a +9 bonus to Grapple checks.... but that seems like a cheap balance.

[CyberThread]

or just forgot about cha based psi casters. Psionics was very sloppy in creation.

[Grod_The_Giant]

or just forgot about cha based psi casters. Psionics was very sloppy in creation.
Yeah. What's that quote? "Never attribute to malice what can be chalked up to stupidity instead?"

[Psyren]

Pathfinder fixed it to be key ability modifier. They also rolled Telekinetic Force and Thrust into one power.

Telekinetic Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/telekinetic-maneuver)
Telekinetic Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/telekinetic-force)

[CyberThread]

May I also highly suggest, you get some sort of item that boost your slight of hand check, it only takes a DC 20 to take a magical ring off someone successfully, which you could argue you are using the disarm function of the spell for, which is a nice failsafe if you are facing someone with freedom of movement on them.


Magical rings can be an issue, and a good way to "disarm/sunder" something without actually damaging the prize.

[visigani]

Can you manifest an immediate action power while concentrating? If so... well, things gets a little stupid.

With Grip of Iron you can increase that bonus by 16.... giving you a total grapple check of 65. You can now go toe to toe with an ancient gold dragon, and have an edge...

[molten_dragon]

The one reason I can think the Devs didn't make it charisma and intelligence is specifically because of wilders.

Or they just forgot about Wilders being CHA based. The devs were FAR from infallible.

Rule 0 is the easy answer to this one. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for your wilder to get it based on CHA.

[Ortesk]

Can you manifest an immediate action power while concentrating? If so... well, things gets a little stupid.

With Grip of Iron you can increase that bonus by 16.... giving you a total grapple check of 65. You can now go toe to toe with an ancient gold dragon, and have an edge...

And nothing can cast freedom of movement? I agree with you, grapple is really powerful. I mean stupid powerful against enemies without a No button, but its not so good it destroys the game. And at level 20 i can beat a 65 grapple

[CyberThread]

That is why I suggested the slight of hand, disarming magical rings. They get to make a spot check to see if you did it or not, but it is a flat DC 20 to disarm that ring, no matter what.


holy crap didn't even realize it, if you can boost your check somehow into the 30's or such before you roll, you can afford the risk to do the "disarm" as a free action at the expensive of taking a -20 on the roll.

[molten_dragon]

May I also highly suggest, you get some sort of item that boost your slight of hand check, it only takes a DC 20 to take a magical ring off someone successfully, which you could argue you are using the disarm function of the spell for, which is a nice failsafe if you are facing someone with freedom of movement on them.


Magical rings can be an issue, and a good way to "disarm/sunder" something without actually damaging the prize.

Except the power doesn't allow you to make sleight of hand checks. And it specifically says you can't take something like a ring off someone without pinning them in a grapple first.

[visigani]

And nothing can cast freedom of movement? I agree with you, grapple is really powerful. I mean stupid powerful against enemies without a No button, but its not so good it destroys the game. And at level 20 i can beat a 65 grapple

That's the thing, so far as I can tell none of the dragons have it on their spell lists. They might take it....

But it also has a somatic component... so unless the dragon cast it prior to combat he *can't* cast it while grappling.

That's right, you can't cast freedom of movement while grappling. =)

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's right, you can't cast freedom of movement while grappling. =)
That's why god Gygax gave us Contingency.

[molten_dragon]

That's the thing, so far as I can tell none of the dragons have it on their spell lists. They might take it....

But it also has a somatic component... so unless the dragon cast it prior to combat he *can't* cast it while grappling.

That's right, you can't cast freedom of movement while grappling. =)

You can't cast freedom of movement while grappling, but you can expend heart of water to get freedom of movement while grappling.

[visigani]

Except the power doesn't allow you to make sleight of hand checks. And it specifically says you can't take something like a ring off someone without pinning them in a grapple first.

But you can pin someone and take their gear one by one. Strip them of their weapons, their armor, spell component pouch, whichever.

[CyberThread]

That is why I used the key term of "disarm" , as we already brought up the use of rule 0 in this conversation.

Slight of hand check lets you take such an item, without the use of the disarm ruleset.

[molten_dragon]

But you can pin someone and take their gear one by one. Strip them of their weapons, their armor, spell component pouch, whichever.

Why bother when you can just have someone coup de grace them if they're pinned.

[Kennisiou]

Why bother when you can just have someone coup de grace them if they're pinned.

Or drag them through the whole team while they're pinned provoking attacks of opportunity. Or throw them off a cliff while pinned. Or open a portal to the negative energy plane and throw them into it while pinned. Spending time disarming them item by item is pretty inefficient, but can be a fun little proof of power I guess.

Edit: Also for the reasons Lunar2 posted, yes. Forgot that.

[lunar2]

because a pinned opponent is not considered helpless. pretty much, if they are capable of moving so much as a pinky finger, they are not helpless.

[Psyren]

They're not helpless but you can certainly wail on them with impunity so they might as well be.


Can you manifest an immediate action power while concentrating? If so... well, things gets a little stupid.

No, you cannot:


You can’t manifest a power while concentrating on another one.

[avr]

Pathfinder fixed it to be key ability modifier. They also rolled Telekinetic Force and Thrust into one power.

Telekinetic Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/telekinetic-maneuver)
Telekinetic Force (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/telekinetic-force)
Yep. Not that PF didn't make the same error with a couple of cleric spells when they forgot that they'd created Oracles which use Charisma rather than Wisdom for spellcasting, and which use the cleric spell list.

Rule 0 really is the correct answer here.

[Story]

Of course they could just put a glove on over their rings. And spellcasters are going to have Heart of Water as already mentioned.

[CyberThread]

HEart of the water is pretty obscure, never faced a caster that has it, as far as NPC goes.


An who the hell wears gloves when your casting DOOM!

[Psyren]

Yep. Not that PF didn't make the same error with a couple of cleric spells when they forgot that they'd created Oracles which use Charisma rather than Wisdom for spellcasting, and which use the cleric spell list.

Rule 0 really is the correct answer here.

Well, Paizo did one, DSP did the other - DSP was better about catching that sort of thing.

[The Grue]

The one reason I can think the Devs didn't make it charisma and intelligence is specifically because of wilders.

At level 20 wild surge alone would grant a +9 bonus to Grapple checks.... but that seems like a cheap balance.

You did read the post you quoted, right? Let me quote it again just to be sure.


The fix is called Rule Zero. "Hey GM, I think it's dumb that Telekinetic Maneuver only uses Intelligence, where the Spell version lets you use Int or Cha. How about we houserule that you can use Cha here too?"

You asked if there was a fix, and that's the easiest one. If you'd rather go off on a tangent about how the devs hate wilders, that's another matter.

[Kennisiou]

If you'd rather go off on a tangent about how the devs hate wilders, that's another matter.

I dunno, I mean he's probably right about it anyways. That's the simplest explanation for psychic enervation, afterall.

[Story]

HEart of the water is pretty obscure, never faced a caster that has it, as far as NPC goes.


That's because NPC casters are too dumb to live by default. PCs on the other hand pretty much always have it.

[lsfreak]

HEart of the water is pretty obscure, never faced a caster that has it, as far as NPC goes.

You may not have, but Complete Mage isn't exactly an obscure source.

EDIT: Swordsaged by the last post on previous page :smalltongue:

[Agent 451]

Yeah. What's that quote? "Never attribute to malice what can be chalked up to stupidity instead?"

Good ol' Hanlon's Razor.

[visigani]

I dunno, I mean he's probably right about it anyways. That's the simplest explanation for psychic enervation, afterall.

By the time you reach level 40 isn't your Psychic Enervation something like 55%?

Oh, and Wilder's don't get bonus epic feats.

[Big Fau]

By the time you reach level 40 isn't your Psychic Enervation something like 55%?

Oh, and Wilder's don't get bonus epic feats.

When while you learn that Epic level play is broken to the point of irrelevance?

[AmberVael]

By the time you reach level 40 isn't your Psychic Enervation something like 55%?

Oh, and Wilder's don't get bonus epic feats.

I'd love to argue that the horrible epic rules aren't indicative of Wilder hate so much as they are indicative of extreme incompetence, but even among the epic progressions the Wilder really stands out as awful. No bonus feats, no new powers (in contrast to psion, ardent, even psychic warrior...), just an increase in their worst class features and wild surge.

[Psyren]

I would just stop at Wild Surge +3 honestly - no real reason to go higher

[visigani]

I would just stop at Wild Surge +3 honestly - no real reason to go higher

Well, if you pick up educated wilder and Fire Souled Template the Wilder actually becomes *much* more dynamic.

[137beth]

Yes, DSP (including the original author of XPH) updated the XPH to PF, and telekinetic maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/t/telekinetic-maneuver) explicitly allows you to use your key ability modifier, rather than explicitly INT.

[The Grue]

Somehow I don't think that will stop visigani from harping on this particular point.

[eggynack]

HEart of the water is pretty obscure, never faced a caster that has it, as far as NPC goes.

Well, from my state of existence, heart of water is probably my favorite spell in the game. There's just something about the sheer value and versatility of it that represents everything I look for in a spell.

[molten_dragon]

HEart of the water is pretty obscure, never faced a caster that has it, as far as NPC goes.


An who the hell wears gloves when your casting DOOM!

Really? Because the vast majority of arcane spellcasters I've run into (both PCs and NPCs) use it regularly. Especially in the Skull and Shackles campaign. I can't think of a single person in the party that didn't find some way of having that spell running 24/7 in that game.

[visigani]

Really? Because the vast majority of arcane spellcasters I've run into (both PCs and NPCs) use it regularly. Especially in the Skull and Shackles campaign. I can't think of a single person in the party that didn't find some way of having that spell running 24/7 in that game.

Really, that whole spell line is broken as hell.

A 3rd level spell that lets you produce a 9th level spell effect? With additional benefits? As a swift action?

[Big Fau]

Really, that whole spell line is broken as hell.

A 3rd level spell that lets you produce a 9th level spell effect? With additional benefits? As a swift action?

What? No, seriously, what? Do you even know what level Freedom of Movement is? Jesus Christ...

[molten_dragon]

Really, that whole spell line is broken as hell.

A 3rd level spell that lets you produce a 9th level spell effect? With additional benefits? As a swift action?

What 9th level spell effect is being replicated? Freedom of movement is only a 4th level spell. And it can be done as a swift action, but the duration is only 1 round/level rather than 10 minutes/level. And the water breathing, bonus on swim checks, and bonus on escape artist checks are all situational.

Heart of Water is a solid, very useful spell, but it hardly qualifies as 'broken as hell'. It's nowhere near the level of broken that something like celerity or polymorph is.

Heart of earth is on par with heart of water. Heart of Air and Heart of fire are much less useful.

[Chronos]

Really, does anyone ever actually take the epic version of a base class, instead of multiclassing or taking more prestige classes? I can't imagine any situation where having a poor epic progression could ever be relevant.

[visigani]

What 9th level spell effect is being replicated? Freedom of movement is only a 4th level spell. And it can be done as a swift action, but the duration is only 1 round/level rather than 10 minutes/level. And the water breathing, bonus on swim checks, and bonus on escape artist checks are all situational.

Heart of Water is a solid, very useful spell, but it hardly qualifies as 'broken as hell'. It's nowhere near the level of broken that something like celerity or polymorph is.

Heart of earth is on par with heart of water. Heart of Air and Heart of fire are much less useful.

Why the hell did I think Freedom of Movement was a 9th level spell effect?

Blarg, mea culpa.

[Kazyan]

You were probably thinking of Freedom.

[eggynack]

Heart of earth is on par with heart of water. Heart of Air and Heart of fire are much less useful.
I rather disagree on heart of earth, as well as heart of air. Heart of earth is certainly nice, granting some reasonable defensive benefits, heart of water is significantly better. While some temporary HP is a good effect, freedom of movement is something that's absolutely necessary to survive sometimes. There're other ways around some of those effects, but heart of water is likely the best one in the game. Also, while it's situational, between the water breathing and the swim speed, heart of water is probably the best spell to use for aquatic adventuring, even before you consider the other factors.

As for heart of air, the abilities aren't usually great, but its status as a low level spell makes it the most efficient method to get the light fortification effect. As for the actual effects, they're pretty bad unless you're in the air, but most casters are going to be in the air a lot. I especially like that ability on a druid, who is likely going to be in the air on a permanent basis by 6th or 7th level. The feather fall is nifty too. I would never cast the spell if I weren't already casting heart of water, but after you have heart of water, I think it's a spell worth casting sometimes.

[Vortenger]

Yeah. What's that quote? "Never attribute to malice what can be chalked up to stupidity instead?"

I'd attribute it to sloth (and bad editing), rather than to stupidity. Bruce was one of the sharpest authors WoTC managed to enlist. DSP has certainly polished it up nice, but psionics has been Bruce's brainchild since the Illithiad.