Warblade and Warlock on the Tierlist? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Crake

2013-10-25, 10:46 PM

New poster here, just curious about a conversation I had with the friend that brought me here.

And before being asked, yes, I've read the articles about the tierlist: the individual tiers and their purpose, and why each class is in each tier.

And for the most part, it makes sense: Wizards can cast spells that lets them do anything they want, commoners are just as much of sheep in D&D as regular people are in real life, Fighters can be good at fighting but usually not much else and other classes can do fighting just as well, and so on and so forth.

But two things puzzle me a bit. Why is a Warblade so much better than a Barbarian? Crusader, maybe, since it's got high damage, tanking, in combat healing with no opportunity cost or resource drain, and battlefield control, all built in, and with mild optimization to do so. Swordsage has damage, scouting, and near skill-monkeying, with likewise little work to achieve.

The Warblade is described as being near Tier 2 (ie lightly game breaking), yet the only thing it can really do outside of maybe 3 maneuvers (Mountain Hammer Line, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics) is damage. Barbarians at least have potential trap finding to do, among a few other tricks. I don't doubt the Tier 5-ness of a Fighter or the Tier 4-ness of a Barbarian, but I don't see why the Warblade is considered so much better than them.

Also, I really don't see what's bad about the Warlock. Glavelock, Clawlock, or Uncanny-Legacy-Hellfirelock means it's solidly good at dealing damage, and the rest of it's invocations emulate enough different spells to mean it should be easily as versatile as an initiator class. Yet these aspects are almost all but glossed over on the articles about it. It seems like a solid tier-3.

Should probably quickly note that barbarians having trap sense doesn't give them the ability to find traps, simply react better to them.

As for why warblades are tier 3 vs barbarian tier 4? It pretty much is exclusively to do with the fact that warblades get maneuvers. For example, a warblade with the mage hunter line of feats, getting pierce magical concealment and then the stance hear the air, essentially gets blindsight for free vs foes who get their concealment/invisibility via magic, and blindsense vs everything else. As you go higher and higher up the maneuver list, maneuvers get more and more powerful and versatile. Don't forget that stances can be changed as a swift action, and the warblade's ability to shift the focus of feats to any weapon it wields is quite nice. Comparing maneuvers to no maneuvers is really like comparing spellcasting to no spellcasting. It's the next best thing.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-10-25, 10:47 PM

For what it's worth, I agree with you on the Warblade. The "official" rationale, such as it is, is that he can do so much in combat, which is frequently the dominant part of the game. Warblades get plenty of maneuvers both offensive and defensive, giving them options-- a barbarian, meanwhile, pretty much just pounces all day. He also has a decent skill list, with some use for Int.

The Warlock... again, a borderline class, but he doesn't have quite enough invocation variety, and he doesn't have quite enough punch... he sort of comes out as a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none type mystic. Though it's not hard to bump him up a tier-- hellfire+legacy champion or glaivelock gets him the missing damage, and if you abuse Imbue Item you can turn yourself into a mini-artificer. Heck, a two-level chameleon dip for a floating bonus feat to spend on Extra Invocation might be enough to bump you up...

limejuicepowder

2013-10-25, 10:50 PM

tier system assumes only core+the boook the class was introduced.

I don't remember this; I remember equal optimization of roughly mid-OP. Still though, I'd put warlock in t3. Having spammable abilities really does make a difference - even if the ability isn't the perfect thing to use, you can still throw it out there for even the smallest gain, since it can't be used up. And despite the small amount of invocations to choose from, and the even smaller amount that you can choose, a lot of the invocations are quite good, with wide applications.

A "core-only" warlock won't be winning any damage races, but he's always going to have something to do. I think that makes him t3.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-25, 10:53 PM

I swear I read that in a Tier thread... but I can't find it now.

eggynack

2013-10-25, 10:55 PM

Should probably quickly note that barbarians having trap sense doesn't give them the ability to find traps, simply react better to them.
Well, unless you trade it out for trapkiller anyways. That ACF is so frigging cool. It's a damn shame that the wolf totem takes up trap sense, thus causing you to miss out on the awesome that is trapkiller.

avr

2013-10-26, 01:05 AM

The near-tier-2 impression could easily come about from misunderstanding what someone meant about 'low in tier 3'. Lower numbered tiers are better, but people often use lower = worse, higher = better as a convention when speaking or writing.

Personally I'd change some of the tier rankings (e.g. IMO the Beguiler class), but since the tier rankings are shorthand at best and come with no mechanical effect in 99% of games there's no great incentive to take up a long argument.

137beth

2013-10-26, 01:38 AM

I agree that the warblade is only tier 4...

I think its (mis)placement is largely a result of the fact that the tier system was written up relatively shortly after ToB was released, so JaronK and others did not have as much time to accurately tier the ToB classes as he did with other classes.

CyberThread

2013-10-26, 01:48 AM

the only thing the warblade has going for it, is being able to destroy the sun.

Lans

2013-10-26, 02:41 AM

Warblade has access to scent and some defensive abilities that the barbarian doesn't

Draz74

2013-10-26, 03:22 AM

I'm pretty ambivalent about the classification of both classes, but I'd like to point out just a couple little things:

3-4 is one of the fuzziest distinctions in the whole Tier ladder, with the most vague and subjective differences. I really kind of think they're just one Tier that is divided in half for convenience since it would be too big otherwise.

Tier classifications in general try not to weigh PrCs into consideration, even if those PrCs are obvious/straightforward options for a class. So Hellfire doesn't really figure into the Warlock's rating.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 03:38 AM

I don't remember this; I remember equal optimization of roughly mid-OP. Still though, I'd put warlock in t3. Having spammable abilities really does make a difference - even if the ability isn't the perfect thing to use, you can still throw it out there for even the smallest gain, since it can't be used up. And despite the small amount of invocations to choose from, and the even smaller amount that you can choose, a lot of the invocations are quite good, with wide applications.

A "core-only" warlock won't be winning any damage races, but he's always going to have something to do. I think that makes him t3.

Actually, at first it really was only core + class book. However, JaronK changed that later.
I think it had something to do with the Factotum.

I think Warlock can only be considered t3 if you have Eldritch Glaive available. If it's only Core + Complete Arcane, I'd consider it t4.

But yes, consensus seem to be that Warlock is t3.

Pluto!

2013-10-26, 11:06 AM

I swear I read that in a Tier thread... but I can't find it now.
That was the central part of one of the initial counter-proposals to JaredJaron's tier system, as a kind of artificial way to try to normalize optimization assumptions, but it never caught on.

I don't know if there's a specific thread on it, but it came up a bunch of times in the thousand pages of Kaelik/JaredJaron slugfests over on BG,

Chronos

2013-10-26, 12:01 PM

One other point about the tier list: Lower tier number means more versatile, but it does not necessarily mean better overall. Imagine, if you will, a class that had one and only one ability: To do a million damage to any living creature with a single hit. This hypothetical class would certainly be stupidly overpowered, often more powerful than even the Tier 1 classes, but it would still be only Tier 4, because that's the only thing it can do, and there are a lot of situations where that one thing isn't useful at all.

This, to a lesser degree, is where the Warblade ends up, relative to the other Tome of Battle classes: It's arguably more powerful than them, but it's less versatile.

AmberVael

2013-10-26, 12:19 PM

I'd call both of them tier 4, honestly. Both are on the cusp of tier 3, but not quite there.

Warblade is cool and fun to play, but the versatility of maneuvers is limited, and Warblade gets the most limited and focused set of maneuvers. I'd rather have one in my party than a Barbarian, but they're still both just contributing in the same direction- one of them just has more style while doing it.

The invocation system, meanwhile, actually has good potential for creating a tier 3 class... but Warlock is not that class. There are good invocations, and even ones that apply to a variety of situations, but the warlock gets so few of them that it just can't get everything it needs to reach tier 3. You can make a decent combat warlock, but by then you've pretty much blown all your invocations on combat, which kills your ability to contribute in other situations (thus tier 4). On the other hand, trying to diversify leaves you with a disconnected power set with numerous tricks, but not enough focus on any given thing to really shine there. You might manage to do something, but it'll be on the same level as the rogue and his skills points- it's just not enough to reliably make a difference.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 12:29 PM

You can make a decent combat warlock, but by then you've pretty much blown all your invocations on combat, which kills your ability to contribute in other situations (thus tier 4).
This is incorrect.
You need two invocations for a combat Warlock - eldritch glaive and an essence of choice. That's it.
You can still have The Dead Walk, Flee The Scene, Chilling Tentacles, Voracious Dispelling...

On the other hand, trying to diversify leaves you with a disconnected power set with numerous tricks, but not enough focus on any given thing to really shine there. You might manage to do something, but it'll be on the same level as the rogue and his skills points- it's just not enough to reliably make a difference.
That's not really true for a Warlock, IMHO.

Amphetryon

2013-10-26, 12:32 PM

This is incorrect.
You need two invocations for a combat Warlock - eldritch glaive and an essence of choice. That's it.
You can still have The Dead Walk, Flee The Scene, Chilling Tentacles, Voracious Dispelling...

That's not really true for a Warlock, IMHO.

I thought Eldritch Claws was the typical go-to option, due to weirdness in how the Glaive procs as a weapon vis a vis iteratives. I'd have to dig up the argument to that effect.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 12:35 PM

I thought Eldritch Claws was the typical go-to option, due to weirdness in how the Glaive procs as a weapon vis a vis iteratives. I'd have to dig up the argument to that effect.

Claws is alright, but can't be combo'd with HFW and synergizes poorly with Power Attack.

The essence is usually vitriolic after level 11...

13_CBS

2013-10-26, 12:40 PM

I thought Eldritch Claws was the typical go-to option, due to weirdness in how the Glaive procs as a weapon vis a vis iteratives. I'd have to dig up the argument to that effect.

To be fair, isn't Claws from the Dragon Magazine? A lot of people might discount it since a lot of people also disregard Dragon.

Firechanter

2013-10-26, 12:43 PM

Warblade is rated Tier 3 (low end, however) because, while he has rather limited out-of-combat utility (basically only a small handful of skills and a few maneuvers), his in-combat versatility is awesome. Other melee classes have to focus on one role and cultivate a small number of tricks (typically one to three). As Warblade, you can be _both_ a Leader _and_ a Striker, and be excellent in both jobs simultaneously. You get maneuvers that often are better than entire feat _chains_ for a Fighter, _and_ your feat selection on top of that.

The Tier system is rather coarse, but anyone can see that a Warblade is _much_ better than a Barbarian, so if the Barb is T4, the WB gets a higher rating to reflect that.

Amphetryon

2013-10-26, 12:49 PM

To be fair, isn't Claws from the Dragon Magazine? A lot of people might discount it since a lot of people also disregard Dragon.

Indeed it is. There's an Eldritch Claws mini-handbook floating around the interwebz somewhere that I am remembering with my commentary.

AmberVael

2013-10-26, 01:04 PM

This is incorrect.
You need two invocations for a combat Warlock - eldritch glaive and an essence of choice. That's it.
When I say 'combat warlock' I mean a warlock that not only can contribute to combat, but is actually good at combat. A warlock that just has a glaive and one essence? Not a good combat warlock. Their contribution is minimal and easily surpassed by another decent class- like say, the aforementioned Warblade. To really be decent at combat, you need more options- like say, your aforementioned Chilling Tentacles, which is in fact a combat invocation (as it has no real use outside of combat...)

Lets take your list and assume a level 13 warlock, which is the first time you can actually have two greater invocations (which you need to have Chilling Tentacles and Vitriolic Blast- because you pretty much need vitriolic if you plan to be using your eldritch blast a lot).

You have eight invocations at this level.
Least: Eldritch Glaive
Least:
Least:
Lesser: The Dead Walk
Lesser: Flee the Scene
Lesser: Voracious Dispelling
Greater: Chilling Tentacles
Greater: Vitriolic Blast

You have a grand total of two least slots left here. With your two least slots, you could add in say, Beguiling Influence and Entropic Warding (or replace one of these with See the Unseen- any of these is a decent choice).

So, you can contribute decently in combat via damage, a limited form of battlefield control that will be increasingly resisted at high levels, and temporary minion creation. You might be able to dispel some buffs if you get lucky, but that will also be increasingly less likely due to hitting the CL cap. You might also have a minor defensive buff in the form of entropic warding. Still, you have options. It's good enough.

Outside of combat, you can dispel, have a very short range teleport and a small boost to your social skills. Given that your intelligence will likely be low and you have few skill points, and don't get diplomacy as a class skill.... well, you can be workable, but probably not great. Maybe you can make a few utility minions from the Dead Walk.

These things outside of combat sound very situational to me, with the exception of social skills... which you're not all that great at. This still sounds like "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise."

Note that most damage dealing warlocks will go Hellfire for obvious reasons, which sucks up another one of your invocations.

Telonius

2013-10-26, 02:09 PM

I'd still put Warlock in Tier 3 - Imbue Item pushes him over. It's a poor man's Artificer crafting, but it still gives him access to (close to, if not actually) every spell in the game.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 02:22 PM

To be fair, isn't Claws from the Dragon Magazine? A lot of people might discount it since a lot of people also disregard Dragon.

Not only a lot of people, but JaronK's tier system does not count Dragon material.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 02:27 PM

@Ambervael: The Dead Walk can be used permanently as well. :smalltongue:

AmberVael

2013-10-26, 02:31 PM

@Ambervael: The Dead Walk can be used permanently as well. :smalltongue:

Well yeah, that's why I referenced it for out of combat, where the duration matters more. I'm just assuming you won't use the permanent version in combat, because most of the time why bother? If you just make temporary allies from available corpses on the battlefield you can get a decent amount of use for basically no cost.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 02:31 PM

When I say 'combat warlock' I mean a warlock that not only can contribute to combat, but is actually good at combat. A warlock that just has a glaive and one essence? Not a good combat warlock. Their contribution is minimal and easily surpassed by another decent class- like say, the aforementioned Warblade. To really be decent at combat, you need more options- like say, your aforementioned Chilling Tentacles, which is in fact a combat invocation (as it has no real use outside of combat...)
I think you're really missing on what a glaivelock with a good essence can do, which is almost surefire debuff since it causes several saves. You're not only doing respectable damage while targeting touch AC, you're handing status effects like candy and all it cost you was two invocations.

Lets take your list and assume a level 13 warlock, which is the first time you can actually have two greater invocations (which you need to have Chilling Tentacles and Vitriolic Blast- because you pretty much need vitriolic if you plan to be using your eldritch blast a lot).
While Vitriolic Blast is a great essence for the whole "screw SR" factor, it is not a must have, specially if you want to debuff, which is one of a Glaivelock's bigger strengths.

You have eight invocations at this level.
Least: Eldritch Glaive
Least:
Least:
Lesser: The Dead Walk
Lesser: Flee the Scene
Lesser: Voracious Dispelling
Greater: Chilling Tentacles
Greater: Vitriolic Blast

You have a grand total of two least slots left here. With your two least slots, you could add in say, Beguiling Influence and Entropic Warding (or replace one of these with See the Unseen- any of these is a decent choice).

So, you can contribute decently in combat via damage, a limited form of battlefield control that will be increasingly resisted at high levels, and temporary minion creation. You might be able to dispel some buffs if you get lucky, but that will also be increasingly less likely due to hitting the CL cap. You might also have a minor defensive buff in the form of entropic warding. Still, you have options. It's good enough.
Limited form of battlefield control between eldritch glaive plus chilling tentacles...? :smallconfused:

Outside of combat, you can dispel, have a very short range teleport and a small boost to your social skills. Given that your intelligence will likely be low and you have few skill points, and don't get diplomacy as a class skill.... well, you can be workable, but probably not great. Maybe you can make a few utility minions from the Dead Walk.
Yes, that's a lot of stuff. Compare that to the utility a Warblade or Duskblade brings to a party.

These things outside of combat sound very situational to me, with the exception of social skills... which you're not all that great at. This still sounds like "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise."
First, you're forgetting your example Warlock can craft magical items.
Second, I'm having a hard time finding a situation where your example Warlock would be useless. "Not dominating an encounter" is not being useless, mind you. With those invocations, you can contribute meaningfully to pretty much all encounters - at leats more meaningfully than a Duskblade or martial adept (all t3).

13_CBS

2013-10-26, 02:32 PM

Not only a lot of people, but JaronK's tier system does not count Dragon material.

Of course: I was merely responding to Amph's statement as to why no one is mentioning Eldritch Claws.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 02:35 PM

Of course: I was merely responding to Amph's statement as to why no one is mentioning Eldritch Claws.

Oh, I understand, I was just agreeing with you. :smallsmile:

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 02:37 PM

Well yeah, that's why I referenced it for out of combat, where the duration matters more. I'm just assuming you won't use the permanent version in combat, because most of the time why bother? If you just make temporary allies from available corpses on the battlefield you can get a decent amount of use for basically no cost.

Well, it's a much more ludicrous idea to use the temporary version. What if you guys are fighting 2 dragons? Are you too cheap to shell out the gp to grab a potentially permanent, powerful zombie dragon? If you have been using the permanent version, why do you have undead HD available in the first place?

Amphetryon

2013-10-26, 02:39 PM

Of course: I was merely responding to Amph's statement as to why no one is mentioning Eldritch Claws.

If I were to guess, I'd say the lack of Eldritch Claws contributes to Warlock being pegged at T4, since there are few ways to make it truly viable in melee (depending on interpretation of the aforementioned Eldritch Glaive iteratives issue).

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 02:44 PM

What's wrong with the glaive's iterative attacks? :smallconfused:

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-26, 02:47 PM

Tvtyrant

2013-10-26, 02:51 PM

I actually think Warlock (outside of item creation) is the quintessential tier 4. They can be really good at one thing (damage with Hellfire/Legacy Champion, control with tentacles and overwatch glaive) but is not very flexible.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 02:52 PM

People forget that while you get your itterative attacks, using Eldritch Glaive is a full round action, not a full attack and therefore things that work with full attacks, like say pounce, don't work with Eldritch glaive.

That's... completely a non-complaint. Pounce on the warlock? Seriously? You shoot people on rounds you aren't next to them. :l

Tvtyrant

2013-10-26, 02:54 PM

That's... completely a non-complaint. Pounce on the warlock? Seriously? You shoot people on rounds you aren't next to them. :l

I believe he was referencing the fact that the glaive gets no iteratives, as the single attack is a full round action and not an attack action.

Amphetryon

2013-10-26, 02:59 PM

I believe he was referencing the fact that the glaive gets no iteratives, as the single attack is a full round action and not an attack action.

Indeed I was. I also recall there being some contention over whether this reading was considered valid, though.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 03:02 PM

Indeed I was. I also recall there being some contention over whether this reading was considered valid, though.

Yeah, I can tell you right now it's invalid. Thanks for getting me worried for nothing. :smalltongue:

It says specifically you can make as many attacks as your BaB would allow. There's no real room for argument, especially after an example was given.

Amphetryon

2013-10-26, 03:07 PM

Yeah, I can tell you right now it's invalid. Thanks for getting me worried for nothing. :smalltongue:

It says specifically you can make as many attacks as your BaB would allow. There's no real room for argument, especially after an example was given.

True; it's a good thing WotC never published any example creatures, PrCs, or other rules text that were invalid by their own rules.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 03:11 PM

True; it's a good thing WotC never published any example creatures, PrCs, or other rules text that were invalid by their own rules.

Here's the thing about the example given: it clarifies and does not contradict the text. It's an example of a good example. I don't think there is any text that conflicts directly with that of the invocation of the first place, and even if it did, it would have to specific the invocation lest it be irrelevant to the ruling.

AmberVael

2013-10-26, 04:20 PM

*lots of stuff*
I've looked over your points and honestly I just flat out disagree with a lot of it. I foresee a very long cycle of point by point increasingly irrelevant debates that gets nowhere, so I'm going to pull back from responding to all your points, and just outline my general case. And if we still disagree, well, that's just the way of things.

A warlock does have the capability to be competent. However, due to extremely limited range of options, it's pretty much impossible to be good at more than one thing. If you want to focus on combat, for example, you need multiple essences to overcome varying defenses, and other invocations to allow for different tactics to work in an assortment of situations. This quickly eats into your ultimate total of 12 invocations known. While it's possible to try and minimize the number of invocations you spend on any given situation, this erodes your ability to reliably respond to any given situation, either way putting you into the tier 4 category of doing one thing well, or numerous things without being great at any of them.

When you look at something even like the Duskblade, it gets more options. Yeah, its spell list is not amazing, but it can still manage about everything that the example warlock could with its spells, and it gets nearly twice as many of them. The Warblade I'd find to be much more comparable to the Warlock... and you'll notice I'd classify it as tier 4 too, as I originally stated.

When you move on to a more iconic tier 3 rather than one on the verge of tier 4, like Duskblade, it seems even more obvious. Take Bard, for example. An appropriate Bard build basically one ups both the Duskblade and that Warlock, fighting, buffing, being a diplomat, and enhancing all of this and adding more capabilities through spells at the same time.

Well, it's a much more ludicrous idea to use the temporary version. What if you guys are fighting 2 dragons? Are you too cheap to shell out the gp to grab a potentially permanent, powerful zombie dragon? If you have been using the permanent version, why do you have undead HD available in the first place?

I think you're focusing on this a bit too much. :smallconfused: Yes, obviously if you find a good candidate for it, spend the oynx. If your big minion died though (which will happen eventually- it's just a zombie, after all, and it doesn't level with you), or you haven't found one, make some sacrificial slaughter minions in the meantime. Or spend some onyx making utility minions instead. In any situation, you're getting some decent use out of it.

gorilla-turtle

2013-10-26, 10:19 PM

So it isn't nearly as neat as I thought it was. That makes me feel a bit better.

I don't know where you read that Warblade is near tier 2, most people I've talked with agree he is on the lower end of Tier 3, precisely for the reasons you quoted, however you are forgetting they get more skill points than fighter and barbarian along with diplomacy and intimidate to use them ( they have an incentive to use int, so even if they have the same base SP per levels as Barbarians, Warblades usually have more skill points).

For the Warlock remembers the tier system assumes only core+the boook the class was introduced, and Warlock isn't really strong without those boost which all come from different books. And while there are some pretty sweet invocations, most of them are really weak for their level since the designers overestimated the power of at will abilities. I agree however that Warlocks are probably on the verge of reaching tier 3 status.

First, my comment about the Warblade being near Tier 2 is based on the Tierlist itself. Or, more specifically, which the Warblade is in Tier 3:

"A note on the Warblade: Warblades are tier 3 only because 9th level spells are better than the rule books and not because the monster manuals are packed full of monsters that can kill them. Being the horseman War is great and all, but it will always be second best to a god. -SorO_Lost"

I suppose I was ultimately underestimating just how many of the other little bonuses the Warblade gets, but between the majority of maneuvers pretty much being "I hurt the foe harder but as a Standard Action instead of needing to charge or full attack", the full advantages of the maneuvers were a bit lost on me when I first wondered about this.

About the Warlock and being allowed to factor other sources into one's tier: The Bard is my answer to that discussion. The very first note on why Bards make Tier 3 is because of how great support they have, and their biggest weakness being the lack of it in core books. Optimization factoring into the tiers seems to be mostly all classes being played smart and to their strengths without (overtly) trying to shatter game balance, but it seems silly to completely ignore other books when considering a class. Heck, the Barbarian probably drops a Tier (or at least definitely isn't as good as the Warblade even more so (that didn't come out right)) without Complete Champion and Pounce, and the Tierlist even acknowledges Dungeon Crasher Fighter to be on an entirely seperate Tier than non-Dungeon Crasher Fighters, so...

Should probably quickly note that barbarians having trap sense doesn't give them the ability to find traps, simply react better to them.

As for why warblades are tier 3 vs barbarian tier 4? It pretty much is exclusively to do with the fact that warblades get maneuvers. For example, a warblade with the mage hunter line of feats, getting pierce magical concealment and then the stance hear the air, essentially gets blindsight for free vs foes who get their concealment/invisibility via magic, and blindsense vs everything else. As you go higher and higher up the maneuver list, maneuvers get more and more powerful and versatile. Don't forget that stances can be changed as a swift action, and the warblade's ability to shift the focus of feats to any weapon it wields is quite nice. Comparing maneuvers to no maneuvers is really like comparing spellcasting to no spellcasting. It's the next best thing.

I believe the part about trading away trap sense for trap-killing was already mentioned by another poster?

I'm actually relatively curious, since I did miss the fact that they recieved scent, just how many of a Warblade's possible maneuvers function outside of being a variant of "I stab the target more/harder". Just how versatile are they? Blind-Sense is one advantage I did forget, how many others are there?

The near-tier-2 impression could easily come about from misunderstanding what someone meant about 'low in tier 3'. Lower numbered tiers are better, but people often use lower = worse, higher = better as a convention when speaking or writing.

Personally I'd change some of the tier rankings (e.g. IMO the Beguiler class), but since the tier rankings are shorthand at best and come with no mechanical effect in 99% of games there's no great incentive to take up a long argument.

I hope my earlier quote helped make the "near tier 2 impression" make sense. I'm fully aware of what the Tierlist means, and am actually a bit annoyed by so many people trying to think "let's take the class that has no actual abilities beyond a few one note bonuses (fighter) and see what could possibly be done to make it rival the god classes". Most of those people, it seems, do not understand the tierlist as it was presented:

Tier 1 - X Tier. Played to their full strengths, this tier is capable of easily breaking game balance. Broken Tier. Ban-Worthy without the players holding back.

Tier 2 - S Tier. Weaker than X Tier, but still incredibly powerful and threatening. Mildly Ban Worthy if one is worried about such things.

Tier 3 - A Tier. Strong Tier; these classes can contribute and function in multiple situations. Versatile and powerful, but without being too broken (in most cases). Probably where most characters should be aiming for in terms of optimization (either by playing weaker in the high-tiers, or trying harder in the low tiers).

Tier 4 - B Tier. Decent Tier, these classes have a few shortcomings and what not, but still have the room to be played effectively, and still fit in well with most parties once given enough polish.

Tier 5 - C Tier. Poor Tier; most of these classes require significant work when played against characters made out of classes tiers higher than them, and occassionally the effort put into making them as useful or more so simply doesn't pay off. Sometimes makes game balance hard in the -opposite- dirrection.

Tier 6 - F Tier. Dan Hibiki Tier; either your Dm hates you, you're trying to challenge yourself, you're trolling, or something is wrong (or just very different) for you to be playing one of these classes.

How far off am I? Try to ignore how opinionated some of the descriptions are.

avr

2013-10-26, 11:00 PM

Tier 2 can break the game just as hard as tier 1 - sorcs vs wizards - but any individual sorc (or other tier 2) can do so only in a limited number of ways.

Tier 4 is supposedly as good in their shtick as tier 3, but they have less flexibility outside that shtick. The argument for warblades being tier 3 is that even if barbarians may do more damage, a warblade can do damage and/or other things in a fight too.

I can't bring myself to care about the distinction between tiers 5 & 6.

On maneuvers which don't just hit things harder, White Raven Tactics can mess with the action economy while Iron Heart Surge can in theory do many strange things. Both need interpretation and may be the subject of house rules. Save replacers in Diamond Mind are handy. There's a Disarming Strike in Iron Heart. DR-negating maneuvers can do extensive property damage without expending per-day resources. Sudden Leap makes your swift action useful at level 1.

Outside the maneuvers a warblade gets, the crusader's Devoted Spirit is mostly about healing but includes some stances which make people drool. Thicket of Blades for battlefield control, some higher level stances which do odd things to die rolls in general. Crusaders also get some of the above of course.

Swordsages get access to short range teleports (Shadow Hand) and some odd defences and control/attacks in the Setting Sun discipline, in addition to a couple of the tricks mentioned above for warblades.

13_CBS

2013-10-26, 11:03 PM

Tier 1 - X Tier. Played to their full strengths, this tier is capable of easily breaking game balance. Broken Tier. Ban-Worthy without the players holding back.

Tier 2 - S Tier. Weaker than X Tier, but still incredibly powerful and threatening. Mildly Ban Worthy if one is worried about such things.

Not quite. This is a common misunderstanding of the Tier List; both Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes can utterly shatter the game, it's just that the Tier 1 can do so in many different ways while Tier 2s can only do so in a handful of different ways.

A Wizard can know pretty much every spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer list, or at least the combination of ones that let him break the game, and then prepare some or all of said broken spells every day, rotating them out as necessary.

A Sorcerer can know some of those spells, but not all of them, and can't switch them out on a daily basis the way the Wizard can.

Tier 3 - A Tier. Strong Tier; these classes can contribute and function in multiple situations. Versatile and powerful, but without being too broken (in most cases). Probably where most characters should be aiming for in terms of optimization (either by playing weaker in the high-tiers, or trying harder in the low tiers).

I'm not sure if the Tier List as envisioned by JaronK was designed to make value judgements like "should be aiming for in terms of optimization", but yes, more or less.

Tier 4 - B Tier. Decent Tier, these classes have a few shortcomings and what not, but still have the room to be played effectively, and still fit in well with most parties once given enough polish.

That's partly true, but the main definition of Tier 4 is that the class is either:

1) Good at one thing and only one thing (ex: Charging Barbarians--can do phenomenal amounts of melee damage but that's all it can do)

2) Can reasonably attempt many different things, but isn't particularly great at any of them (ex: Rogues--can contribute to melee via Sneak Attack (but low BAB, low AC, and limitations of Sneak Attack limit effectiveness), can use Skills (but can only put so many ranks into so many Skills, and most Skills just aren't very useful compared to spells), can do Utility stuff via UMD (but often can't pump Charisma without getting MAD, UMD is expensive at best and unreliable at worst), can stealth (but has difficulty avoiding non-visual detection such as Lifesense, Detect Magic, Tremorsense, etc., even Darkstalker can go only so far))

Tier 5 - C Tier. Poor Tier; most of these classes require significant work when played against characters made out of classes tiers higher than them, and occassionally the effort put into making them as useful or more so simply doesn't pay off. Sometimes makes game balance hard in the -opposite- dirrection.

That...can be the end result of trying to play a Tier 5 class, yes, but the formal definition of Tier 5 is: the class has difficulty doing anything at all well. Example: the usual build plans for Monks (melee brawler/skirmisher) results in a character that is typically lacking in damage (can't pump Strength so easily), accuracy (low BAB, can't pump Strength so easily), hit avoidance (has to pump both Dex and Wis since armor is unavailable), and beefiness (d8 Hit Die, can't pump Con so easily), and therefore struggles in melee combat (though technically isn't the absolute worst at it)--since the Monk wasn't designed for all that much else, the Monk ends up not being very good at anything significant at all, and therefore falls under Tier 5.

Tier 6 - F Tier. Dan Hibiki Tier; either your Dm hates you, you're trying to challenge yourself, you're trolling, or something is wrong (or just very different) for you to be playing one of these classes.

Again, that may be the end result of playing a class from that Tier, but not quite the formal definition. A Tier 6 class is a class that absolutely can't do anything, period. Example: Commoner. 1d4 hit die, worst BAB, no good saves, no skill points, no proficiencies, no class features. The only way you can break Commoners is via magic items (which pretty much anyone else can use), rules abuse (which, again, anyone else can use), or joke feats like Chicken Infested.

Edit: for what it's worth, I actually do agree with you on the Warblade: unless the extra skillpoints being put into Diplomacy + Mountain Hammer line + White Raven stuff pushes the Warblade into "can do stuff outside of neutralizing enemies via violence or facilitation thereof", it seems like the Warblade ought to be Tier 4. The "Tier test" JaronK came up with--run the class through various common D&D scenarios, see how well they fare--ought to suggest that the Warblade really struggles in anything outside of combat and specific puzzle-solving. IIRC, there were at least 3 different test scenarios:

1) Dungeon crawling: the class goes through Ye Olde Evil Dungeon filled with monsters (combat) and traps (skill/puzzle solving), with a Dragon at the end (combat, but you need a way to neutralize or meet the Dragon's advantage in flying). I would expect a Warblade to do better than, say, a Fighter or even a Barbarian (being able to detect Invisible creatures certainly helps), but outside of "hitting it with a stick", I'm not sure what other ways the Warblade could overcome the challenges found in the dungeon.

2) Get in contact with a Resistance leader: I'd have to check the Warblade skill list again to be sure, but I'm fairly certain Gather Info is not a Warblade class skill, and it'd be tricky for a Warblade to pump his Charisma when he's already got Strength, Constitution, and maybe Intelligence to worry about. He could have some points in Diplomacy, but Warblades also want to put points into Concentration, and also perhaps Balance and Jump (for his maneuvers). I suppose that, if a handful of ranks into Diplomacy is enough to get through this intrigue-laden set of encounters, then the Warblade certainly could be considered Tier 3, but if not...

3) Defend the village: defend a village from an incoming horde of enemies. I guess the Warblade could buff his party members and the villages via White Raven, but that's still only helping out in the direct combat bit of the encounter; skillmonkeys could sabotage the enemy horde, while spellcasters, as always, can do pretty much whatever they want. The Warblade still seems to contribute primarily through violence or the facilitation thereof.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 11:11 PM

I think you're focusing on this a bit too much. :smallconfused: Yes, obviously if you find a good candidate for it, spend the oynx. If your big minion died though (which will happen eventually- it's just a zombie, after all, and it doesn't level with you), or you haven't found one, make some sacrificial slaughter minions in the meantime. Or spend some onyx making utility minions instead. In any situation, you're getting some decent use out of it.

Sorry for picking on you. When I see something puzzling, I take measures to understand it. *bows humbly*

Honestly, I feel like the temporary version should only be used in emergency. From an utility standpoint, zombies are good to have around for triggering traps, if no other reason. Otherwise, your HD should be full. :smalltongue:

IronFist

2013-10-27, 03:24 AM

I've looked over your points and honestly I just flat out disagree with a lot of it. I foresee a very long cycle of point by point increasingly irrelevant debates that gets nowhere, so I'm going to pull back from responding to all your points, and just outline my general case. And if we still disagree, well, that's just the way of things.
No problem. :smallsmile:

A warlock does have the capability to be competent. However, due to extremely limited range of options, it's pretty much impossible to be good at more than one thing. If you want to focus on combat, for example, you need multiple essences to overcome varying defenses, and other invocations to allow for different tactics to work in an assortment of situations. This quickly eats into your ultimate total of 12 invocations known. While it's possible to try and minimize the number of invocations you spend on any given situation, this erodes your ability to reliably respond to any given situation, either way putting you into the tier 4 category of doing one thing well, or numerous things without being great at any of them.
Well, that's the thing - getting your Warlock better at melee depends more on other things (feats, items, prestige class dips) than invocations known. In fact, you can do a good melee Warlock while sacrificing zero invocations - grab Eldritch Claws, a few support items and go to town.
Even for a glaivelock, the optimal setup is usually "choose an essence and stick with it". I have sincerely never seen a glaivelock build with more than one essence.
I agree completely with you in that if you focus a lot of invocations to improve your melee abilities, you're gonna suck at everything else. You don't need to do it to be a good melee warlock, though - that's the whole point of the melee warlock archetype. Take a look at these builds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8901123&postcount=4)

When you look at something even like the Duskblade, it gets more options. Yeah, its spell list is not amazing, but it can still manage about everything that the example warlock could with its spells, and it gets nearly twice as many of them. The Warblade I'd find to be much more comparable to the Warlock... and you'll notice I'd classify it as tier 4 too, as I originally stated.
I'm really not seeing it, sorry. I have been using Magus for a long time, so I may have forgotten some stuff about the Duskblade.
I remember Duskblade has some rays, a few buffs, a dispel and a few teleport spells. Please correct me if I'm wrong - hows does that compare to The Dead Walk, item crafting, at-will dispelling or Chilling Tentacles?

When you move on to a more iconic tier 3 rather than one on the verge of tier 4, like Duskblade, it seems even more obvious. Take Bard, for example. An appropriate Bard build basically one ups both the Duskblade and that Warlock, fighting, buffing, being a diplomat, and enhancing all of this and adding more capabilities through spells at the same time.
Oh, I agree completely. Bard is at the upper end of tier 3 for sure.

AmberVael

2013-10-27, 10:51 AM

Sorry for picking on you. When I see something puzzling, I take measures to understand it. *bows humbly*

Honestly, I feel like the temporary version should only be used in emergency. From an utility standpoint, zombies are good to have around for triggering traps, if no other reason. Otherwise, your HD should be full. :smalltongue:

Why on earth would you spend onyx on zombies you intend to set off traps with? Just pick up some skeletons or dead bodies and store them somewhere (like a portable hole or some other extradimensional storage space which you should have anyway) and then animate them as they are needed with the temporary version. You can't tell me that you're going to be using all the HD you have available all the time- you're probably going to have one or two HD left over even if you have a few massive awesome minions. So just haul around a ton of say, sheep bones and make Baa the Skeletal Eternally Suffering Sacrificial Lamb take all those trap hits for no cost.

Onyx: 25gp per HD, moderately rare specialty item. Assorted animal bones: Really friggin cheap (if not free) from a village butcher and available everywhere.

Well, that's the thing - getting your Warlock better at melee depends more on other things (feats, items, prestige class dips) than invocations known. In fact, you can do a good melee Warlock while sacrificing zero invocations - grab Eldritch Claws, a few support items and go to town.
Even for a glaivelock, the optimal setup is usually "choose an essence and stick with it". I have sincerely never seen a glaivelock build with more than one essence.
I agree completely with you in that if you focus a lot of invocations to improve your melee abilities, you're gonna suck at everything else. You don't need to do it to be a good melee warlock, though - that's the whole point of the melee warlock archetype. Take a look at these builds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8901123&postcount=4)
All but one of these builds sacrifice the majority of their invocations in favor of melee combat, even worse than anything I was saying. They don't just use their invocations to enable their melee, they lose them altogether, and retain only 3 least invocations and a single lesser. Sure, they can do really nice damage- but at that point, that's all they can really do. Anything else is a minor side note.

With the heavy impact to their caster level as well unless they take another feat (which most of them don't have room for), Voracious Dispelling and The Dead Walk also take heavy hits. Given that they have no reason to focus on charisma either, you should probably avoid saving throw based stuff. Which leaves you with... Fell Flight and Flee the Scene? Both of which are cool, but not really game changers.

The Avenger build is pretty much the only one that doesn't make major sacrifices to versatility in order to get things working, but its major contribution has some notable limitations in when and how often it can be done each day.

I'm really not seeing it, sorry. I have been using Magus for a long time, so I may have forgotten some stuff about the Duskblade.
Given that you haven't used it in ages, and I don't know it amazingly well to begin with, why don't we set that aside and point towards a more useful example like the Bard? Which we both agree is better in almost every way. Or the Factotum, which is similarly far more capable. Or Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, who are focused on one area of magic, sure, but can achieve enough things with that area that they both have far more versatility than the Warlock?

I just don't see the Warlock comparing to most Tier 3 classes.

Talya

2013-10-27, 11:01 AM

Warblade is by far the most versatile and powerful of the TOB classes (Best recovery mechanic, best chassis, best class features, best school access), which really makes it the most versatile and powerful melee class in the game.

It still sits around the middle of tier 3 by virtue of several casting types that sit well above it (Bard, DN, Beguiler.)

While I do not agree with the Warlock's placement in Tier 4, it's certainly not very high in Tier 3. It's not much better than the similar Dragonfire Adept, if at all.

MukkTB

2013-10-27, 11:43 AM

The Warblade is pretty good for a non magic user. In combat I'd rather have a Warblade at my side than a Barbarian because I would know that the Warblade could function in environments and situations where a Barbarian would find himself unable to do his thing. Out of combat I wouldn't expect a great deal from either class, although the Warblade would offer more.

That puts it at lower tier 3 for me. 3.75 if you will. Not really low tier 3, but definitely under some of the partial spellcasters who really define the tier.

The Warlock is optimization dependent. They seem to come in two flavors.
#1(Low Op) Always can produce some DPR, but not staggering amounts. Has some weak utility, and a mixed bag of magic access. Tier 4 in the variety of a jack of all trades, master of none.
#2(High Op) Can produce good DPR via eldritch glaive and is a mini artificier. So good damage and good utility, making it Tier 3.

The tier system has some failings. The one here is the inability to always deal perfectly with the optimization floor and ceiling of a single class. Especially if there isn't much middle ground. There isn't a smooth graduation from #1 to #2. Either someone knows how to run the warlock, or they do not.

IronFist

2013-10-27, 11:45 AM

All but one of these builds sacrifice the majority of their invocations in favor of melee combat, even worse than anything I was saying. They don't just use their invocations to enable their melee, they lose them altogether, and retain only 3 least invocations and a single lesser. Sure, they can do really nice damage- but at that point, that's all they can really do. Anything else is a minor side note.
Agreed completely. The Avenger build, however, is the only one that really matters to this discussion (the others are focused builds using Eldritch Claws). The damage output is still quite decent without going nova, decent enough for average level challenges. It's just that when you need to go nova, you decimate anything in a single round. Really, just check the HP for CR 12 monsters - heck, I'll do it for you: abyssal basilisk 189 hp, adult brass dragon 199, young adult bronze dragon 189, 11-headed pyrohydra 118, frost worm 147, kolyarut 91, kraken 290, leonal 144, colossal monstrous scorpion 300, elder black pudding 290, purple worm 200, roper 85, mature adult white dragon 241. A nova round for our Avenger Warlock kills any of those guys and many of them more than once.

With the heavy impact to their caster level as well unless they take another feat (which most of them don't have room for), Voracious Dispelling and The Dead Walk also take heavy hits. Given that they have no reason to focus on charisma either, you should probably avoid saving throw based stuff. Which leaves you with... Fell Flight and Flee the Scene? Both of which are cool, but not really game changers.
Except for the Avenger build, the one that matters. :smallwink:

The Avenger build is pretty much the only one that doesn't make major sacrifices to versatility in order to get things working, but its major contribution has some notable limitations in when and how often it can be done each day.
Well, I've mentioned before what that nova can do. You don't need to do that every single encounter. In fact, you can pull that nova 3/day - your Beguiler or Dread Necromancer buddies also get around 3 castings of their higher level spells at that level. I'd call that surprisingly appropriate.

Given that you haven't used it in ages, and I don't know it amazingly well to begin with, why don't we set that aside and point towards a more useful example like the Bard? Which we both agree is better in almost every way. Or the Factotum, which is similarly far more capable. Or Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, who are focused on one area of magic, sure, but can achieve enough things with that area that they both have far more versatility than the Warlock?
I agree with Bard, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Factotum is not even close unless you use a lot of cheese.

I just don't see the Warlock comparing to most Tier 3 classes.
Funny, because we have just stablished it is better than Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader and Duskblade. That's already half of tier 3. :smallbiggrin:

While I do not agree with the Warlock's placement in Tier 4, it's certainly not very high in Tier 3. It's not much better than the similar Dragonfire Adept, if at all.
Agreed.

Snowbluff

2013-10-27, 11:51 AM

Why on earth would you spend onyx on zombies you intend to set off traps with? Just pick up some skeletons or dead bodies and store them somewhere (like a portable hole or some other extradimensional storage space which you should have anyway) and then animate them as they are needed with the temporary version. You can't tell me that you're going to be using all the HD you have available all the time- you're probably going to have one or two HD left over even if you have a few massive awesome minions. So just haul around a ton of say, sheep bones and make Baa the Skeletal Eternally Suffering Sacrificial Lamb take all those trap hits for no cost.

Onyx: 25gp per HD, moderately rare specialty item. Assorted animal bones: Really friggin cheap (if not free) from a village butcher and available everywhere.
50 gp for something ambulatory and not concerned with dying is a good deal. Not every level 6 has the portable space to keep a whole skeleton in, and warlocks are often toting a lot of Str. This is made worse when you can't use the chunks again.

As for my HD, Onyx is rare and expensive, so I get some, I am going to use it. A zombie dragon a pretty sweet piece of trap bait that probably won't get destroyed, and you can heal them easily at Dark invocations.

Flickerdart

2013-10-27, 11:58 AM

Warlock seems like a pretty high T4 - but still a T4 - to me. It can either do a whole bunch of things decently (by diversifying its invocation choices and feats) or be really good at damage at the expense of that versatility. There's probably a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where you deal enough damage to work in your game and still have spare resources to do other stuff, at which point it seems to be a T3.

Talya

2013-10-27, 12:00 PM

I agree with Bard, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Factotum is not even close unless you use a lot of cheese.

I put a high-op single-class bard at the very pinnacle of Tier 3, but I don't think factotum is that far behind. Hell, they don't need much op...just take font of inspiration for every feat. They are, however, boring as dirt and have absolutely no style.

Funny, because we have just stablished it is better than Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader and Duskblade. That's already half of tier 3. :smallbiggrin:

I really don't think you have. Warlocks are generally a low-int class with 2 skills/level. Without world-shattering primary spell list power (sorc) there's no way to make that versatile. They get a handful of invocations that can help with that, but not enough. If they choose the right invocations, they may get marginally more utility out of combat, but in combat, the TOB classes have far more versatility, and the warlock has fallen even further behind in combat by focusing too much on out of combat utility. Then the Warlock really starts to look like the rogue...it can help with lots of things, but not really all that well, and someone goes and puts them in Tier 4.

IronFist

2013-10-27, 12:12 PM

I put a high-op single-class bard at the very pinnacle of Tier 3, but I don't think factotum is that far behind. Hell, they don't need much op...just take font of inspiration for every feat. They are, however, boring as dirt and have absolutely no style.
Factotum has very little it can do offensively, unless you pervert Iaijutsu Focus to hell and back. You can't even spam spells, because Arcane Dilettant has a limit of only using the same spell once a day.
Also note I was talking to someone who shared my view about the ToB classes not being that high to begin with. :smalltongue:

I really don't think you have. Warlocks are generally a low-int class with 2 skills/level. Without world-shattering primary spell list power (sorc) there's no way to make that versatile.
There is a lot more to versatility than skills, not to mention how the warlock has several skill-boosting invocations and can craft items to cover whatever holes are left. Also, the Warblade needs movement skills (Jump, Balance, Tumble) while the Warlock can teleport and fly.

They get a handful of invocations that can help with that, but not enough. If they choose the right invocations, they may get marginally more utility out of combat, but in combat, the TOB classes have far more versatility, and the warlock has fallen even further behind in combat by focusing too much on out of combat utility. Then the Warlock really starts to look like the rogue...it can help with lots of things, but not really all that well, and someone goes and puts them in Tier 4.
Let me put it this way:

What does a Warblade bring to the party?

Melee power
Has some social skills
Mobility from skills and maneuvers
Low level enhanced senses (scent)
Might have buffs from White Raven

What does a Warlock bring to a party?

Melee power + debuffing
Social skills, enchantment invocations, invocations to buff social skills
Mobility from invocations (flight, spider climb, teleport)
At-will dispelling (meaning he can lock most spellcaster encounters with counterspells)
Item crafting
Good enhanced senses (seeing invisible targets, seeing in darkness, tremorsense)
Utility (The Dead Walk, Humanoid Form)

Talya

2013-10-27, 12:24 PM

Factotum has very little it can do offensively, unless you pervert Iaijutsu Focus to hell and back. You can't even spam spells, because Arcane Dilettant has a limit of only using the same spell once a day.

I'm not a factotum fan, so i'm not inclined to put much effort into arguing, although I do think you're selling them short. How many thousand spells does arcane dilettant get to cycle through in a day?

There is a lot more to versatility than skills, not to mention how the warlock has several skill-boosting invocations and can craft items to cover whatever holes are left.

The tier system rates levels 6-15. The problem for warlock here, is that by level 6 it's skill boosting invocations are 3 ranks behind the specialists and never get higher. Their crafting doesn't come online at all until 2/3rds of the way through that level range at 12, at which point, yes it's a very nice perk. But you had to wait until level 12 to get there. And then they still need to take the various item creation feats, which locks in their feats at 12 and 15 if they're going to use them.

Also, the Warblade needs movement skills (Jump, Balance, Tumble) while the Warlock can teleport and fly.

Let's face it, if it's an issue, every warblade already has short-range at-will teleport and fly.

What does a Warblade bring to the party?

What does a Warlock bring to a party?

You forgot the big one:
Warblade: The ability to be a self-sufficient, durable, dominating force in almost every possible combat situation

Warlock never gets that to the same extent.

13_CBS

2013-10-27, 12:30 PM

Factotum has very little it can do offensively, unless you pervert Iaijutsu Focus to hell and back. You can't even spam spells, because Arcane Dilettant has a limit of only using the same spell once a day.

Nitpick: Factotums can make for decent trippers if you build them right. It won't come online until at least level 6, and you'll have to do some Fighter dips to grab all the feats, but it can work.

AmberVael

2013-10-27, 12:32 PM

I'm going to be abandoning this debate because I don't think there is anything else to really be gained from it (and since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere), but I just want to point out this one little thing before I go-

Humanoid Form

Your average Warlock will not have humanoid form. I would argue that they should not have Humanoid Form, because it is a poor choice for them. It's not on their list, so they can't select it without the use of the Infernal Adept feat. Because Infernal Adept requires you to select an invocation two grades lower than your maximum, you can't select Humanoid Form until you're level 16. Since normally the only feat you gain after level 16 is the level 18 feat, you only have one chance to get it, and it means giving up your highest level feat which you could at least pick up a greater invocation with if nothing else.

The only build worth noting Infernal Adept for is the Chameleon warlock with that shifting bonus feat, and even they will probably have better choices most of the time.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-10-27, 12:33 PM

I put a high-op single-class bard at the very pinnacle of Tier 3, but I don't think factotum is that far behind. Hell, they don't need much op...just take font of inspiration for every feat. They are, however, boring as dirt and have absolutely no style.

Quoted for truth.

More pertinent to the discussion at hand, I find that in actual practice, Warblades are about mid-T3 and Warlocks tend to fall right on the T3/4 line, much like a tossed coin landing on it's edge.

13_CBS

2013-10-27, 12:36 PM

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?

Chronos

2013-10-27, 12:49 PM

Quoth Talya:

I'm not a factotum fan, so i'm not inclined to put much effort into arguing, although I do think you're selling them short. How many thousand spells does arcane dilettant get to cycle through in a day?
Unless I'm missing some cheesy trick, 0.008 thousand.

Still, even though they're not all that great in combat, they're absolutely amazing out of combat. Having one situation where they're lacking isn't that big a deal; most classes have something they're not so great at.

IronFist

2013-10-27, 01:21 PM

Unless I'm missing some cheesy trick, 0.008 thousand.

Still, even though they're not all that great in combat, they're absolutely amazing out of combat. Having one situation where they're lacking isn't that big a deal; most classes have something they're not so great at.

Combat is more than half of D&D.

You know, considering that, I can actually see the martial adepts at low tier 3.

Flickerdart

2013-10-27, 02:18 PM

Factotums can hold their own in combat, even without Iaijutsu Focus or tripping. Their skill-having makes them the best suited class for Knowledge Devotion, which helps close the numbers gap between them and dedicated warriors. They embody the "guy who uses creativity to solve problems" archetype, since their class features actually support doing this (unlike the much-maligned fighter, who has neither skill nor spell nor action economy advantage to do much of anything).

As a class with a lousy chassis that needs to use its class features to keep up with the brick walls (much like a bard) a factotum only comes into his own after the first few levels, once his range of abilities and IP pool have expanded to permit truly ludicrous schemes.

Talya

2013-10-27, 04:38 PM

Unless I'm missing some cheesy trick, 0.008 thousand.

I didn't mean "how many spells can they cast?" It was meant as a reply to the concept that they can't use the same spell more than once. This isn't a problem...they have a choice of memorizing from between a ridiculous number of spells, they're guaranteed to find 8 useful ones.

Warlocknthewind

2013-10-27, 04:38 PM

I'm just tossing in there.. I have found a million and one uses for Baleful Utterance.

Talya

2013-10-27, 04:47 PM

I'm just tossing in there.. I have found a million and one uses for Baleful Utterance.

Baleful Utterance is great. I think in general Mountain Hammer strike is more useful.

Amphetryon

2013-10-27, 06:04 PM

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?

I have to ask, in reply, why are you discounting these abilities, when compared to the out of combat usefulness of other full-BAB options, for example, Fighter, or even Barbarian? Can either Fighter or Barbarian provide reliable object busting, reliable detection (such as Scent) from a Class ability, or handle non-hostile negotiations? Can a Barbarian, Fighter, or Ranger expect to provide legitimate, Class-based ability to force the opponent(s) to pay attention to them in combat?

Flickerdart

2013-10-27, 06:36 PM

13_CBS

2013-10-27, 07:19 PM

I have to ask, in reply, why are you discounting these abilities, when compared to the out of combat usefulness of other full-BAB options, for example, Fighter, or even Barbarian? Can either Fighter or Barbarian provide reliable object busting, reliable detection (such as Scent) from a Class ability, or handle non-hostile negotiations? Can a Barbarian, Fighter, or Ranger expect to provide legitimate, Class-based ability to force the opponent(s) to pay attention to them in combat?

Said abilities, while certainly useful, aren't for the most part supported enough to let Warblades completely fill roles outside of Big Stupid Fighter. Scent and Blindsense is awesome, but does that make the Warblade a scout? Mountain Hammer lets you bust objects, but does that make the Warblade a skillmonkey?

There's absolutely no denial that Warblades are excellent at combat, and are very flexible in combat, to a degree that Fighters and Barbarians can't hope to achieve without themselves taking up ToB toys. My question is: what major roles can Warblades truly fulfill outside of killing stuff? If the fact that Warblades have decent Int + have Diplomacy as a class skill is enough to let them be good at being the party face, I'll certainly concede that Warblades unquestionably deserve Tier 3 status.

My impression is that Tier 3 classes are able to fulfill at least 2-3 different roles reliably. Beguilers can do well in combat (save-or-die, save-of-suck spells), scouting (invisibility), and social encounters (Enchantment-school spells). Bards can at least buff (Dragonfire Inspiration) and handle social encounters (high Charisma, Diplomacy/Bluff, Enchantment-school spells), and I'm sure there's a reasonable Bard build out there that can do well in melee. You can build Factotums to excel in some combination of melee (tripping, Iaijutsu Focus), skillmonkeying (all skills are class skills, high Int, 6 skill points per level), social (Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy, Arcane Dilettante into Enchantment-school spells), and general utility (Arcane Dilettante).

Is there anything Warblades excel at doing outside of killing things? Again, if 4 skill points per level + decent Int + Diplomacy as class skill is enough to let Warblades reliably be a party face, I'll be more than happy to concede that Warblades are solidly Tier 3.

Or does Tier 3 not mean what I think it means? :smallconfused:

limejuicepowder

2013-10-27, 07:22 PM

It's also interesting to note that Warblades, but not Warlocks, have encounter-to-encounter versatility. Once selected, a Warlock's Invocations are set in stone, but a Warblade can pick his nose for five minutes and have a completely different set of tools available to him.

Eh, this isn't really true. At 20th level, a warlock will know 12 invocations, which he has access to at all times. A warblade will know 13 maneuvers (only 1 more!), he can only access 7 at a time. In reality, the warblade being able to change his maneuvers readied only gets him to the same place the 'lock was at to begin with...and he had to spend 5 minutes doing it.

georgie_leech

2013-10-27, 07:32 PM

Draz74

2013-10-27, 07:35 PM

People who are distaining the Warblade's ability to have Scent, don't forget he can also get Blindsight. That scales a little better. :smalltongue:

Besides Iaijutsu, Factotums can use a number of other cheesy or questionable (but popular) options to become powerful. Or they can (my favorite) be pretty good archers with Knowledge Devotion. (I'm yet to be convinced that other Knowledge Devotion or Tripping builds really can work well, but I'm only slightly skeptical; I could imagine it working.)

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?

Having LOTS of points in Diplomacy; having Intimidate and a few other tricks that synergize well with it; being able to alter his allies' initiative (I can imagine non-combat situations where that matters); and being more able than most to copy the Swordsage or Crusader non-combat options via feats or items. That's ... about it. And it's not great. But it's better than lots of other classes, especially warriors.

Flickerdart

2013-10-27, 07:39 PM

Eh, this isn't really true. At 20th level, a warlock will know 12 invocations, which he has access to at all times. A warblade will know 13 maneuvers (only 1 more!), he can only access 7 at a time. In reality, the warblade being able to change his maneuvers readied only gets him to the same place the 'lock was at to begin with...and he had to spend 5 minutes doing it.
At level 1, the warblade knows/readies 3/3 maneuvers and has 1 stance, and the warlock has a single invocation.
At level 5, the warblade knows/readies 6/4 maneuvers and has 2 stances, and the warlock has 3 invocations.
At level 10, the warblade knows/readies 8/5 maneuvers and has 3 stances, and the warlock knows 6 invocations.
At 15th level, the warblade knows/readies 11/6 maneuvers, and has 3 stances, and the warlock knows 9 invocations.
At level 20, the warblade knows/readies 13/7 maneuvers, and has 4 stances, and the warlock knows 12 invocations.

The warblade has a significant advantage in known abilities at all levels, and a meaningful advantage in unique effects available: only at level 15 are the classes matched in that respect, and the warlock only pulls ahead at level 20. Additionally, any time the warblade takes Martial Study or Martial Stance, he can gain a level-appropriate ability, while the warlock's Extra Invocation is 5 levels behind.

AmberVael

2013-10-27, 07:43 PM

At level 1, the warblade knows/readies 3/3 maneuvers and has 1 stance, and the warlock has a single invocation.
At level 5, the warblade knows/readies 6/4 maneuvers and has 2 stances, and the warlock has 3 invocations.
At level 10, the warblade knows/readies 8/5 maneuvers and has 3 stances, and the warlock knows 6 invocations.
At 15th level, the warblade knows/readies 11/6 maneuvers, and has 3 stances, and the warlock knows 9 invocations.
At level 20, the warblade knows/readies 13/7 maneuvers, and has 4 stances, and the warlock knows 12 invocations.

The warblade has a significant advantage in known abilities at all levels, and a meaningful advantage in unique effects available: only at level 15 are the classes matched in that respect, and the warlock only pulls ahead at level 20. Additionally, any time the warblade takes Martial Study or Martial Stance, he can gain a level-appropriate ability, while the warlock's Extra Invocation is 5 levels behind.

+1 to this. It's always important to remember that the Tome of Battle classes are front loaded. It's also worth remembering that the Warlock's least invocations remain least invocations forever, while the Warblade can easily have all of their maneuvers be at the highest levels due to the way their maneuver swapping works.

Lord_Gareth

2013-10-27, 07:55 PM

Having LOTS of points in Diplomacy; having Intimidate and a few other tricks that synergize well with it; being able to alter his allies' initiative (I can imagine non-combat situations where that matters); and being more able than most to copy the Swordsage or Crusader non-combat options via feats or items. That's ... about it. And it's not great. But it's better than lots of other classes, especially warriors.

There's also some mobility tricks that can help in non-combat action situations (room floods with water etc).

Firechanter

2013-10-27, 07:55 PM

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?

That's three things already. You can also add short-range teleport, because the WB can easily grab the Swordsage maneuvers per item and/or feat, and actually make more use of it thanks to better recovery method. That alone is immensely useful. And they can do it over and over. Not many classes can hope to keep teleporting all day.

Mind you, Barbarians can do one thing outside of combat, and that is wilderness survival (and some perception/stealth). A skillset which, alas, is trivialised and made redundant by spells rather quickly. Still, that's one more outside-combat thing than a Fighter can do.

--

Generally, and I've said it before in a different thread: some people have gotten too demanding of what is required for Tier 3. Keep in mind Tier 3 doesn't mean you have to be able to do _everything_. Not being able to do everything is actually the whole point.

Scow2

2013-10-27, 08:21 PM

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?In addition to good diplomancy, they have a good skill list, and don't underestimate the power of Object Bashing. They can also completely screw over anyone trying to force them to make a save, they have great mobility in AND out of combat because of their skill flexibility and range, all sorts of Iron Heart shenanigans, bonus feats for more flexibility anywhere (Including being able to do anything a Swordsage or Crusader's famous for doing through Martial Study and Stance feats), and getting away with crazy Exotic Weapon Proficiency shenanigans as well through Martial Aptitude (Chain tripping most of the day, then swap out for Whip Proficiency, and you're suddenly Indiana Jones. You can also use an EWP proficiency to grab ranged weapons like Greatbows or Repeating Crossbows or Bolas and go to town with those.)

Don't discount creative use of combat abilities out of combat, as well. the Save Replacers and Iron Heart Surge are a great big middle finger to the stuff casters like to do to prevent/trivialize combat in the first place. And on that note - a Warblade can make almost any situation a combat one.

Also... something else to keep in mind about scent: Not only is it good for detection, but it's also good for Identification. When the Good King Who Has Mysteriously Started Acting Out Of Character starts smelling like the Evil Visier instead of the King, that mystery's been blown wide open from the start.

avr

2013-10-27, 08:44 PM

I'm surprised people are listing diplomacy as a class skill as a significant positive for the warblade. I mean, name the obvious dump stat for a warblade; they don't get the skills which give synergy bonuses to diplomacy either IIRC.

The scent stance is really useful though, that's true. Object bashing less so, and in any case that can easily be replicated by an adamantine weapon.

Chronos

2013-10-27, 09:03 PM

And on that note - a Warblade can make almost any situation a combat one.
And by the same token, a factotum can make almost any situation a noncombat one. Kill the guards? Why? Just walk past them.

Draz74

2013-10-28, 01:51 AM

I'm surprised people are listing diplomacy as a class skill as a significant positive for the warblade. I mean, name the obvious dump stat for a warblade; they don't get the skills which give synergy bonuses to diplomacy either IIRC.

Eh, dumping CHA only really matters at low levels. Eventually ranks become far more important than ability modifiers ... and Diplomacy DCs become rather easy to hit anyway ... and a Circlet of Persuasion (which is virtually +6 CHA for the Warblade) becomes trivially cheap.

And by the same token, a factotum can make almost any situation a noncombat one. Kill the guards? Why? Just walk past them.

Indeed, this is really the Factotum class's strongest advantage. Although it is quite DM-dependent.

JaronK

2013-10-28, 02:29 AM

As a quick note on book sources: The tier system assumes you absolutely have the core books and the book the class was found in. But it also is written with the assumption that it's like you have the completes, that you probably have a few of the other common books (SpC, MIC), and that you might have some setting books, with low odds of having dragon magazine available. Unofficial stuff isn't considered at all.

Basically, if there's some super powerful option for the class but it's found in a book that's rarely used it's not factored in nearly as much as a decent option found in a book I was sure you'd be using.

As for Warblades, they're placed where they are because they have combat versatility, the ability to attack against multiple defenses (including White Raven Tactics on whatever party member is most effective in the specific situation), and a few interesting utility abilities outside of combat (such as invisible enemy detection, smashing through stuff, diplomacy, etc). This means they rock in their main area (combat) while generally not ever being useless. They also can do all this stuff from very early on, so all of this will apply in pretty much all games.

For Warlocks, they're solid at what they do (they can chose a few options here) but generally lack flexibility. While their item crafting ability is awesome, it comes online so late that it is unlikely to effect most games... and they don't have a lot of awesome to work with before that. They're definitely solid though, and there's a lot of reason to consider them quite strong for their tier.

Remember if you're too worried about where exactly they land that it's expected that balance problems won't be too bad if everyone's within one tier.

JaronK

137beth

2013-10-28, 03:11 AM

I would also say that warblades are exceptionally good at low optimization--you can screw up a warblade, but the 'obvious' options are frequently pretty decent.

Scow2

2013-10-28, 08:35 AM

Also keep in mind that "In Combat" is a VERY huge area, so even something "Only good at combat" can still be tier 3. The barbarian, however, isn't actually good in combat. It's good at hitting things and taking hits. It also has a good amount of out-of-combat utility through ACFs and its skill list (Why do people always devalue the Barbarian's skills and abilities? It's like a hybrid Rogue/Fighter but better than both!)

The Warblade, on the other hand, can deal with in-combat situations Barbarians and Fighters can't, such as hitting casters with dozens of "Nope" buttons, remain mobile, ignore rough terrain, and react to changins situations. Tier 4 is for "Only good at one thing in combat, but nearly unsurpassed in that thing", while Tier 5 is "Must optimize to be good at one thing in combat, but risks being completely eclipsed."

I'm surprised people are listing diplomacy as a class skill as a significant positive for the warblade. I mean, name the obvious dump stat for a warblade; they don't get the skills which give synergy bonuses to diplomacy either IIRC.What does Wisdom have to do with Diplomacy?:smallconfused:
:smalltongue:

Yeah, a Warblade gets no mechanical advantage from Charisma beyond the bonuses to Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy, but Warblades have no/few WIS-keyed abilities, and either replace most Will Saves with either Moment of Perfect Mind or just Noping the problem away entirely with Iron Heart Surge. I know the handbook says to dump CHA... but doing so means you can't be a Sexy Shoeless God of War, and completely negates the ability to become an effective Bardblade.

Talya

2013-10-28, 08:55 AM

I have to ask again: outside of Mountain Hammer for object busting, some detection, and a handful of points in Diplomacy, is the Warblade useful for much outside of combat?

But apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order, what have the Romans done for us?

13_CBS

2013-10-28, 09:01 AM

But apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order, what have the Romans done for us?

Was the sarcasm so necessary? :smallconfused:

I simply misunderstood the "is useful outside of its specialty" clause of Tier 3. I thought it.meant "can cover major roles outside of its primary role", not "can it meaningfully contribute in more than 1 situation". I point to my 2nd to last post for a more in depth explanation of my misunderstanding.

Talya

2013-10-28, 09:08 AM

Was the sarcasm so necessary? :smallconfused:

Oh, I'm just a big Monty Python fan. I never pass up the opportunity... :smallbiggrin:

Chronos

2013-10-28, 09:19 AM

(Why do people always devalue the Barbarian's skills and abilities? It's like a hybrid Rogue/Fighter but better than both!)
Barbarians are certainly better than fighters at skills, but how do you get "better than a rogue"? They have half the base number of skill points, and lack Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, and UMD, all of which are pretty useful skills for a rogue.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-28, 09:58 AM

Warblade is by far the most versatile and powerful of the TOB classes (Best recovery mechanic, best chassis, best class features, best school access), which really makes it the most versatile and powerful melee class in the game.

Most versatile combatant, not most versatile overall. That honor belongs to the Swordsage.

The Warblade is really good in melee combat but outside of that it tends to be subpar.

Factotum has very little it can do offensively, unless you pervert Iaijutsu Focus to hell and back. You can't even spam spells, because Arcane Dilettant has a limit of only using the same spell once a day.

A Factotum at ECL 1 can drop a Warblade, Barbarian, or Fighter down to less than half HP in a single attack.

A Factotum at ECL 3 can pretty much always go first and can still cut off about half of a d12 HD classes HP in one attack.

A Factotum at ECL 4 can deal enough damage to drop a d12 HD class into the negatives in one attack.

A Factotum at ECL 8 can deal enough damage in the surprise round to drop an Adult Brass Dragon into the negatives.

Admittedly, after that point the Factotum class features become less stellar as a general rule but the Factotum can keep putting out enough damage to drop at least 50% of an equal CR monsters HP off in one turn (and usually kill said enemy).

All of that without touching IF.

Factotums make some of the best archers in the game, the best skill users, the best scouts, and the best assassins in the game barring Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes.

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 10:10 AM

Tippy, that's pretty much true of any class. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-28, 10:16 AM

Tippy, that's pretty much true of any class. :smalltongue:

Yes well, throw on "able to cast up to 7th level spells, only one of which has to be picked in advance and the rest of which can be chosen at need from the entire Sor/Wiz spell list", "all skills as class skills", "massive skill and initiative boost", "Int to AC even in light armor", and "breaking the action economy harder than everything but a Psion".

And do all of that on the same build at the same time.

Lans

2013-10-28, 10:17 AM

Well a whirling frenzy barbarian is going to be dishing out 4d6+6 before taking into account the players base strength and power attack. Bit more than half

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 10:31 AM

Yes well, throw on "able to cast up to 7th level spells, only one of which has to be picked in advance and the rest of which can be chosen at need from the entire Sor/Wiz spell list", "all skills as class skills", "massive skill and initiative boost", "Int to AC even in light armor", and "breaking the action economy harder than everything but a Psion".

And do all of that on the same build at the same time.
Except they don't get any of the spells that makes a T2 T2, so the spells are limited to being alright. They only get 8 slots at best.

Except that breaking action economy costs them the entirety of their feats. A similiar number of feats could literally grant ninth levels spells. If you can cast 7th level spells and can't cast simulacrum, you can't cast seventh level spells as far as I am concerned. :smalltongue:

Except that they don't get Int to AC is they are breaking action economy.

Oh, and then they couldn't cast either...

They are good at skills, though. Damage is pretty much something even a monk can do, which is what I was referring to. Not that Factotum is bad, you're just overhyping it.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-28, 10:49 AM

Except they don't get any of the spells that makes a T2 T2, so the spells are limited to being alright. They only get 8 slots at best.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm
They get that.

Along with quite a number of other nice spells. No, a Factotum probably won't be breaking the game with spells but he can do things like run around with Persistent Wraithstrike or a Selective Antimagic field.

Except that breaking action economy costs them the entirety of their feats. A similiar number of feats could literally grant ninth levels spells.
Not even close, and the second point is highly debatable as it doesn't give you the CL to actually cast the spells.

If you can cast 7th level spells and can't cast simulacrum, you can't cast seventh level spells as far as I am concerned. :smalltongue:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm
and a Mirror Mephit can give you 1/day free Simulacrum of anything with up to 16 HD. Which includes Efreeti which can then wish you up two Ice Assassin scrolls of whatever you want and a Shapechange scroll so that you can go to town yourself.

Started completely naked and using its native abilities the Factotum can pull off Tier 1 tricks if he really wants to.

Except that they don't get Int to AC is they are breaking action economy.
Sure they do. At level 16 it ceases to cost IP.

Oh, and then they couldn't cast either...
Sure they can.

They are good at skills, though. Damage is pretty much something even a monk can do, which is what I was referring to. Not that Factotum is bad, you're just overhyping it.

A Factotum with no optimization beyond "take Font of Inspiration for every feat and maximize Int" is a solid, middle of the road, Tier 3. A Factotum primary that is high optimized is only exceeded by a high op Bard when compared to the rest of the non Tier 1 and 2 classes.

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 10:58 AM

First off: Anyone can cast simulacrum through tricks. The Duskblade can do the same by taking 2 feats and do so levels earlier. Casting it natively is what I would consider a tolerable level of optimization in most game. Plus, it's cooler to do things yourself.

Secondly, Pure Font is great, but some would consider that higher OP as well. Even then, boiling the points for extra actions does preclude a large number of actions.

Third, CL being required for spells is not debatable, you're just trying to cover your own behind. If CL is required, tricks can be used just as easily to grab the requisite CL, as you are well aware (but you wouldn't care to admit). Classes with CL and actual slots can get Ninths with tricks and feat, regardless.

Like I said, it's not that Factotum is bad. It's really good. You're just way overselling it.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-28, 11:03 AM

Third, CL being required for spells is not debatable, you're just trying to cover your own behind. If CL is required, tricks can be used just as easily to grab the requisite CL, as you are well aware (but you wouldn't care to admit). Classes with CL and actual slots can get Ninths with tricks and feat, regardless.
No, they can't. The earliest that you can get 9ths if you actually have to have a CL of 17 is ECL 6 and that is only doable with one very specific build and flaws if I remember corretly

Like I said, it's not that Factotum is bad. It's really good. You're just way overselling it.
Name a better tier 3 class excluding the Bard. The few that are more powerful in combat are far less versatile outside of it. And none at all have greater versatility.

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 11:17 AM

No, they can't. The earliest that you can get 9ths if you actually have to have a CL of 17 is ECL 6 and that is only doable with one very specific build and flaws if I remember corretly
Oh, so you mean to "You are right," but you are having a difficult time saying? You are making it sounds like it's impossible, but all I am saying is that it is possible. I didn't say "They could at level 1," I said that they could.

Name a better tier 3 class excluding the Bard. The few that are more powerful in combat are far less versatile outside of it. And none at all have greater versatility.
Well, DB can do the casting of a Factotum, as pointed out. Action isn't as easily broken, but with proper arrangement of absurd feat selections, one could do much the same of a factotum at higher levels. Factotum has them beat earlier on.

The Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage (A T4, gasp!) are Wizards with two feats. 1, if you are feeling like Wish 1/day is enough for you. Learning the Guidance of the Avatar spell somehow would let them do the skill monkey job. Beguiler could be considered strictly better, since they get what many consider to be the relevant skills, and a serviceable, expandable spell list with no feats. They can get Mindrape or Ice Assassin at 19, and Simulacrum at level 15 with no feats or tricks. Dread Necro gets Planar Binding, but it's just a pain in the butt for them.

Warlock is T4, but is an Artificer at level 13. Honorable Mention.

Psychic Warrior is the King of Smack. They are not as good as a good factotum, but they also deserve an honorable mention for that Metamorphic Transfer.

EDIT: Forgot about Gate. Incarnates, Healers, and Truenamers can all cast Gate. :smalltongue:

Shining Wrath

2013-10-28, 11:27 AM

The Warlock is hard to judge because you have to first define which splat books are allowed.

The Warblade is the best melee combat class. D12 + full BAB + ToB maneuevers = win. Is that enough to get out of Tier 4? Perhaps not.

But the Warblade does get some stuff useful out of combat. I believe "Hunter's Scent" and "Hearing the Air" stances have already been mentioned. The Warblade is the "smart" base class from ToB, while Swordsage is the "wise" base class and Crusader is the "charismatic" base class. That means a well-built WB will have INT as stat #3 or #4 (tied with Dex), and therefore skill points, and therefore be able to do some things with Diplomacy or Intimidate despite CHR being the dump stat (sane people don't dump WIS).

In addition, some of the maneuvers have utility outside of combat. The Stone Dragon "Mountain Hammer" maneuvers which *ignore* hardness and damage resistance mean that yes, you CAN cut down the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring. :smallcool: Iron Heart Surge lets a WB remove persistent annoying conditions, while Iron Heart Endurance allows a WB to heal themselves to 50% of max any number of times per day with at most a minute's effort: IHE, recover maneuvers, IHE, recover maneuvers, ...

Finally, the White Raven school allows the WB to play with the action economy. How powerful can it be to say "The wizard gets another turn right after mine" with White Raven Tactics? Sometimes, VERY powerful.

So I think the WB deserves the Tier III ranking. They are the best class at their design role, melee, and they have some out-of-combat utility and some in-combat abilities that are not melee but instead are more along the bardic / cleric "improve the team around you" lines.

Talya

2013-10-28, 11:29 AM

The Warblade is the best melee combat class. D12 + full BAB + ToB maneuevers = win. Is that enough to get out of Tier 4? Perhaps not.

Note that JaronK's tier list places all the TOB classes at mid-tier 3, so I'd say yes. Of course that's what we're quibbling over.

(sane people don't dump WIS)

Mechanically, Warblade's can dump wis without much consequence.
However, from a narrative perspective, this quote is interesting because I played a whisper gnome warblade with severe PTSD who had dumped Wis badly. We used rolled stats, I think she had a 5. Nobody would call her "sane," that's for sure.

Shining Wrath

2013-10-28, 11:42 AM

Note that JaronK's tier list places all the TOB classes at mid-tier 3, so I'd say yes. Of course that's what we're quibbling over.

Mechanically, Warblade's can dump wis without much consequence.
However, from a narrative perspective, this quote is interesting because I played a whisper gnome warblade with severe PTSD who had dumped Wis badly. We used rolled stats, I think she had a 5. Nobody would call her "sane," that's for sure.

Ah, you got the pun regarding Wisdom! Award yourself 50 XP. :smallsmile:

Yeah, the question is whether or not JaronK placed the Warblade correctly. I'd say "being able to beat any Tier IV class in melee combat" plus some decent out-of-combat utility justifies Tier III.

JaronK

2013-10-28, 11:47 AM

Note that JaronK's tier list places all the TOB classes at mid-tier 3, so I'd say yes. Of course that's what we're quibbling over.

Well, I placed them all IN tier 3. This says nothing about precisely where in tier 3 they are!

I will say that Barbarians are low in T4, Fighters are high in T5, Duskblades are low in T3 (but can certainly be optimized up quickly by adding spells to their list), CW Samurai are high in T6, and Truenamers are [Expunged].

JaronK

Talya

2013-10-28, 11:54 AM

Truenamers are [Expunged].

With enough optimization to make them function as intended (wasn't there a guy who wrote a guide on how he did that on these forums?) where do you think they'd be?

I mean, assuming they could use their class abilities reliably, just how good are those abilities? (We'll ignore Gate. Healers also get Gate, it doesn't help them. Besides, your Tier list primarily looks at levels 6-15).

Flickerdart

2013-10-28, 11:59 AM

With enough optimization to make them function as intended (wasn't there a guy who wrote a guide on how he did that on these forums?) where do you think they'd be?

Zaq. Truenamers are like T5 even when they're getting checks off - the two Laws they operate under really screw them over, and their effects are rubbish.

JaronK

2013-10-28, 12:00 PM

With enough optimization to make them function as intended (wasn't there a guy who wrote a guide on how he did that on these forums?) where do you think they'd be?

I mean, assuming they could use their class abilities reliably, just how good are those abilities? (We'll ignore Gate. Healers also get Gate, it doesn't help them. Besides, your Tier list primarily looks at levels 6-15).

Ignoring the Gate stuff (which I do for exactly the reason you mentioned), I'd say it's probably in T4 or 5, give or take. Remember, if you're optimizing the Truenamer enough to make it work, we'd assume that the other classes are similarly optimized, so you're being placed against similarly optimized Fighters, Ninjas, and so on.

JaronK

Shining Wrath

2013-10-28, 12:51 PM

Well, I placed them all IN tier 3. This says nothing about precisely where in tier 3 they are!

I will say that Barbarians are low in T4, Fighters are high in T5, Duskblades are low in T3 (but can certainly be optimized up quickly by adding spells to their list), CW Samurai are high in T6, and Truenamers are [Expunged].

JaronK

And now, you MUST tell us where in Tier III you place the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader.

Because otherwise we might stop fighting, and then what would we do with ourselves? :smallsmile:

Draz74

2013-10-28, 01:27 PM

Name a better tier 3 class excluding the Bard. The few that are more powerful in combat are far less versatile outside of it. And none at all have greater versatility.

I consider the Beguiler to be the pinnacle of T3, ahead of even the Bard.

I don't have enough experience with DNs to judge where in T3 they fall, but they have 9ths, so I think it's quite possible that they, too, are well ahead of the Factotum.

Psychic Warriors are pretty high in T3 too, but they definitely fall under your description of "more powerful in combat, far less versatile outside of it." So I guess it would be a matter of opinion (or a matter of how combat-heavy a campaign is) whether PsyWars or Factotums are a better class.

Just to Browse

2013-10-28, 02:27 PM

Name a better tier 3 class excluding the Bard. The few that are more powerful in combat are far less versatile outside of it. And none at all have greater versatility.

Beguiler, Dread Necromancer. Between levels 6 and 15, maybe even Binder, Psywar, and Duskblade.

Also, allowing them to spontaneously cast anything but their highest-level spell is a level of RAW tunnel vision on par with rogues hiding behind their tower shields to hide their tower shields.

__________

The factotum plays how every prepared caster plays. It feels weak when it has few low-level spells, and then becomes strong as it gains more spells and higher-level spells. It feels weaker and scales slower because its spell access is slower.

The design really bothers me because it's based around attacks at low levels (Cunning Insight) and then its primary schtick is spells at high levels (Arcane Dilettante) and there's no smooth integration or compensatory features later on. On top of that, its primary power amplifier is a single online feat with annoyingly bad wording.

The factotum honestly feels like it would be modeled better if wrote it as a rogue/bard with inspiration points and some extra utility.

JaronK

2013-10-28, 02:33 PM

Beguiler can certainly be optimized to be better (Dragonwrought Kobold with the Sovereign Archetype that lets you add the Cleric spell to your list, or just a gnasty gnome with Shadowcraft Mage and the usual feats).

But honestly, they're all pretty debatable, and that's fine.

And now, you MUST tell us where in Tier III you place the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader.

Because otherwise we might stop fighting, and then what would we do with ourselves? :smallsmile:

This is exactly why I shall tell you no such thing. I would never remove the fun! All I will say is that somebody in this thread is right, and somebody is wrong.

Okay, go!

JaronK

Talya

2013-10-28, 02:39 PM

Yeah. i'd argue without Op-Fu (that basically moves beguiler into tier 2 or even tier 1 territory), while they ultimately have a bit more power than bard, I don't see Beguilers being nearly as versatile. A beguiler can be rendered utterly useless by a high will save and immunity to mind affecting. A bard cannot.

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 02:49 PM

All I will say is that somebody in this thread is right, and somebody is wrong.

Okay, go!

JaronK

Okay. I've put out several goblets. Into these goblets I have put iocane powder. Once everyone has made their decisions, we will all drink. Then we shall see who is right, and who is dead.

The battle of wits has begun.

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 02:51 PM

Beguiler still has a few transmutations and conjurations against creature with good will saves. Not all enchantments and illusions affect your allies or are [Mind-Affecting]

But honestly, they're all pretty debatable, and that's fine.

I concur.

Draz74

2013-10-28, 04:36 PM

A beguiler can be rendered utterly useless by a high will save and immunity to mind affecting.

Um. No, they can't.

They have more skill points than anyone else except Factotums. They have Solid Fog and Haste and such gems on their spell list that have nothing to do with will saves or mind-affecting.

I'd agree that they're slightly less versatile, but slightly more powerful, than the Bard. But I think they come out on top overall with similar levels of optimization.

@Just To Browse: Huh, Binder, really? I always thought Binders were pretty darn low in Tier 3 (without Zceryll, natch).

Dusk Eclipse

2013-10-28, 04:40 PM

Don't Beguilers get 8+int SP and an Int focus as big as Factotums who "only" get 6+int?

Karnith

2013-10-28, 04:41 PM

Don't Beguilers get 8+int SP and an Int focus as big as Factotums who "only" get 6+int?
No, Beguilers get 6 + Int skill points per level. There aren't a lot of classes (base or prestige) that get 8 + Int skill points, presumably out of a desire on WotC's part to not obsolete Rogue.

Kazyan

2013-10-28, 04:48 PM

@Just To Browse: Huh, Binder, really? I always thought Binders were pretty darn low in Tier 3 (without Zceryll, natch).

Except for flying (grumble grumble), a Binder can pretty much solve whatever problem they feel like by level 8 or so. They might do it in an unorthodox way, though.

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 04:49 PM

No, Beguilers get 6 + Int skill points per level. There aren't a lot of classes (base or prestige) that get 8 + Int skill points, presumably out of a desire on WotC's part to not obsolete Rogue.

Which is ironic due to how obsolete the rogue is compared to Beguiler and Factotum.

Talya

2013-10-28, 04:50 PM

Scouts are the only other class i can recall that gets 8.

Draz74

2013-10-28, 04:53 PM

Except for flying (grumble grumble), a Binder can pretty much solve whatever problem they feel like by level 8 or so. They might do it in an unorthodox way, though.

Levels 1-7, they only get a single Vestige per day (unless they spend Feats on getting two, not simultaneously). So sure, they might be able to solve any problem, but it requires foreknowledge of the problem and mostly limits them to one "problem" per day.

Level 8 is obviously a huge boost for them, but they're still hardly versatile on a less-than-a-day basis.

Kazyan

2013-10-28, 04:54 PM

Levels 1-7, they only get a single Vestige per day (unless they spend Feats on getting two, not simultaneously). So sure, they might be able to solve any problem, but it requires foreknowledge of the problem and mostly limits them to one "problem" per day.

Level 8 is obviously a huge boost for them, but they're still hardly versatile on a less-than-a-day basis.

Playing a Binder without Expel Vestige is like playing a Druid without Natural Spell.

Big Fau

2013-10-28, 04:55 PM

13_CBS

2013-10-28, 05:02 PM

This is exactly why I shall tell you no such thing. I would never remove the fun! All I will say is that somebody in this thread is right, and somebody is wrong.

Okay, go!

JaronK

And so began the most dangerous game.

Chronos

2013-10-28, 05:08 PM

Quoth Emperor Tippy:

Yes well, throw on "able to cast up to 7th level spells, only one of which has to be picked in advance and the rest of which can be chosen at need from the entire Sor/Wiz spell list"
OK, I'm curious what trick you're using to get that.

Waddacku

2013-10-28, 05:19 PM

Icewraith

2013-10-28, 06:00 PM

I might be overlooking some detail, in which case I'd appreciate the correction.
Is there a reason a Warblade couldn't use its save replacer and parrying maneuvers against traps (etc.) that cause saves/use attack rolls? While they don't have Evasion or Mettle natively, reliably being able to save against/smack away the effects of most traps ought to be a point in their favor re: dungeon crawling and similar ventures.

Not that I am aware of. This isn't necessarily effective against more metagame-y traps such as traps that fire volleys of arrows or force multiple saves. It's a huge advantage if your DM is throwing "basic" traps at you randomly however. Assuming a spellcaster hasn't just conjured something to run down the corridor ahead of the party.

Scoring quite high in the "meatshield least likely to be dominated into leading the party into a trap or attacking the squishies" category and the ability to double-jump probably puts the Warblade in low t3 on their own.

Big Fau

2013-10-28, 06:18 PM

Icewraith

2013-10-28, 06:31 PM

Warblades gain uncanny dodge.

lsfreak

2013-10-28, 06:48 PM

Warblades gain uncanny dodge.

I'm not sure that's enough... uncanny dodge just means you keep your Dex to AC while flat-footed, but you're still flat-footed. You can't take Immediate actions while flat-footed, with the exception of Nerveskitter (and Shock & Awe?) that specifically allow it because they mess with initiative rolls.

Personally I'm likely to implement houserules around that, but they are houserules.

Big Fau

2013-10-28, 06:48 PM

Warblades gain uncanny dodge.

Uncanny dodge does not allow immediate actions when you haven't acted.

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 06:53 PM

Certain versions of Uncanny Dodge contain language that says that you "cannot be caught flat-footed" (see e.g. Dread Fang of Lolth, DotU). However, most (including Warblade) reference the Barbarian class feature, which lacks this language. Similarly, Warblade does not say that you "cannot be caught flat-footed."

But I can see the source of the confusion.

Waddacku

2013-10-28, 07:12 PM

I'd think deliberately staying alert for traps ought to count for not getting caught flatfooted, but I don't know whether the rules actually allow that. We're talking a careful advance, of course, in that case, not blundering along at full speed.

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 07:44 PM

Admittedly, there's also the eternal debate over how absurd it is that a person, moving cautiously through a dark, perilous place they know to be inhabited by violent creatures and full of deadly traps, could ever be caught unprepared. But that's logic; it has no place here.

limejuicepowder

2013-10-28, 09:33 PM

Except for flying (grumble grumble), a Binder can pretty much solve whatever problem they feel like by level 8 or so. They might do it in an unorthodox way, though.

They can fly, sort of. Geryon gives flight for 1 round out of every 5, as a swift action. There are also a few vestiges that give teleportation abilities.

To back up your other point, I'm playing a binder right now, and I'm actually shocked at how many ways I have to go about solving problems. I had to find someone in a city, and my level 8 binder had access to 3 different vestiges that offered ways to help my search. Was very nice to have options.

Pickford

2013-10-28, 10:14 PM

gorilla-turtle:

But two things puzzle me a bit. Why is a Warblade so much better than a Barbarian? Crusader, maybe, since it's got high damage, tanking, in combat healing with no opportunity cost or resource drain, and battlefield control, all built in, and with mild optimization to do so. Swordsage has damage, scouting, and near skill-monkeying, with likewise little work to achieve.

I find several things befuddling about a Warblade (including what makes it a tier 3):

1) The Warblade can only use melee thrown weapons, but no ranged weapon. They're actually worse than a Monk at ranged combat (!)
2) The Warblade has more skill points than a Fighter...but doesn't have Handle Animal or Ride as a class skill. (Something Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins can lay claim to, even a Commoner has Ride(!))
3) Tumble as a class skill...except you can't use tumble if you have medium armor (which the Warblade has access to...so why?)

The upshot is a Warblade is incapable of engaging enemies at range and has no method for pursuing someone. With that crippling a weakness, how do they make it past tier 5? (does one thing well, to wit: melee combat)

In reviewing the justification for the tier system placement, I don't think the authors comprehended just how gaping a weakness it is to have neither ranged attacks, nor the ability to close range with someone who does.

For example, imagine the Warblade is in a ravine, when lo and behold, bandits rise up on the ridges and demand his stuff or his life, pointing bows at him. Basically, he's screwed. Where apparently every other class has an option (ride away/fly/use that tower shield for full cover/hide/shoot back) the Warblade's option is: Become a human pincussion and die, sad and alone. No hope.

The Warblade is capable of doing one thing, melee combat and it lacks versatility to handle a wide variety of situations, that means he's pretty much tier 5, 'maybe' tier 4.

It doesn't help that the tier system is internally inconsistent in justifications on the locations of particular classes. (I'm looking at you psionic classes being absent, but also included (???))

13_CBS:

Said abilities, while certainly useful, aren't for the most part supported enough to let Warblades completely fill roles outside of Big Stupid Fighter. Scent and Blindsense is awesome, but does that make the Warblade a scout? Mountain Hammer lets you bust objects, but does that make the Warblade a skillmonkey?

The Mountain Hammer line won't let you sunder items that are attended, so it's still inferior to just using an Adamantine weapon.

Flickerdart:

The warblade has a significant advantage in known abilities at all levels, and a meaningful advantage in unique effects available: only at level 15 are the classes matched in that respect, and the warlock only pulls ahead at level 20. Additionally, any time the warblade takes Martial Study or Martial Stance, he can gain a level-appropriate ability, while the warlock's Extra Invocation is 5 levels behind.

The Warblade has all of '1' abilities at level 1 that might translate into non-combat utility (Hunter's Sense) whereas the Warlock has 11 (of 17) options for a non-combat utility invocation, including one that both negates scent, leaves no trail, 'and' deflects all ranged attacks at 1st level. That's 3 abilities in one (each of which on its own would be more useful).

Did I mention the Warlock is, if they want, always going to be a better diplomancer than the Warblade? (Beguiling Influence alone is an extra 18 skill point towards the social skills)

Red_Fel:

Admittedly, there's also the eternal debate over how absurd it is that a person, moving cautiously through a dark, perilous place they know to be inhabited by violent creatures and full of deadly traps, could ever be caught unprepared. But that's logic; it has no place here.

They didn't know it was there/Never saw it coming. That's what surprise, and being flatfooted, mean in this game.

avr

2013-10-28, 11:43 PM

IME DMs tend to scale DCs a bit with level. Hopefully by situation rather than directly by level a la 4e, but anyway a warblade with full ranks in diplomacy, 8-12 charisma, no synergy bonuses and a very modest expenditure on equipment isn't going to be asked by the party to be their face very often.

Pickford, warblades can definitely do some stuff in combat well, but your situation & a similar one where combat is between two ships closing slowly (seen that in game) don't come up all that often. Tier 5 is just being silly.

Also note that any individual warblade can't have everything. Likely their first stance is for combat use so Hunter's Scent won't come til at least their second stance - 4th level? When they're readying a handful of maneuvers they won't have ready (or likely even know) all the cool stuff noted. If they're hit by a second will save before they refresh maneuvers they will be relying on a poor base save plus whatever wisdom/other bonuses apply.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 12:10 AM

1) The Warblade can only use melee thrown weapons, but no ranged weapon. They're actually worse than a Monk at ranged combat (!)

Ranged combat was not something the Bo9S focused on, even with the Bloodstorm Blade and a small subset of ranged maneuvers. Speaking of, there's enough maneuvers that work with ranged attacks that the Warblade can easily "keep up" with a dedicated archer, albeit at shorter ranges.

The developers wanted to de-emphasis sniping and put more focus on point-blank range, as most DMs do not run asinine encounters on flat, featureless fields thousands of feet across with no cover.

2) The Warblade has more skill points than a Fighter...but doesn't have Handle Animal or Ride as a class skill. (Something Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins can lay claim to, even a Commoner has Ride(!))

Ride is completely irrelevant to the Warblade's repertoire. They literally have no need for Ride or Handle Animal.

3) Tumble as a class skill...except you can't use tumble if you have medium armor (which the Warblade has access to...so why?)

2 things:

Not all Warblades wear medium armor.
There is no such rule that you cannot tumble in medium armor. You are outright mistaken.

The upshot is a Warblade is incapable of engaging enemies at range and has no method for pursuing someone. With that crippling a weakness, how do they make it past tier 5? (does one thing well, to wit: melee combat)

Tier 5 does nothing well. Tier 4 is what you were thinking of. And the Warblade is quite versatile (even at range).

In reviewing the justification for the tier system placement, I don't think the authors comprehended just how gaping a weakness it is to have neither ranged attacks, nor the ability to close range with someone who does.

Several Warblade-compatible maneuvers allow for movement, and a Warblade is fully capable of closing the distance between himself and an archer.

For example, imagine the Warblade is in a ravine, when lo and behold, bandits rise up on the ridges and demand his stuff or his life, pointing bows at him. Basically, he's screwed. Where apparently every other class has an option (ride away/fly/use that tower shield for full cover/hide/shoot back) the Warblade's option is: Become a human pincussion and die, sad and alone. No hope.

What? At the low levels 90% of all characters are as good as dead in that situation. At the mid-levels that situation would never occur due to flight and WBL. The Warblade is in better shape than most martial classes due to HD, class features that buff his defenses (Wall of Blades, Black Pearl of Doubt, etc), and proficiencies with medium armor and shields (and for not being penalized for using the latter).

Pickford, your situations and ideas of encounters are utterly ludicrous.

It doesn't help that the tier system is internally inconsistent in justifications on the locations of particular classes. (I'm looking at you psionic classes being absent, but also included (???))

JaronK has little experience with the Psionic classes, and only listed ones that were petitioned by other forum-goers when the original Tiers system surfaced.

The Mountain Hammer line won't let you sunder items that are attended, so it's still inferior to just using an Adamantine weapon.

Sundering attended items is pointless. The Mountain Hammer maneuver would be better used attacking the item's holder, not the item itself.

The Warblade has all of '1' abilities at level 1 that might translate into non-combat utility (Hunter's Sense) whereas the Warlock has 11 (of 17) options for a non-combat utility invocation, including one that both negates scent, leaves no trail, 'and' deflects all ranged attacks at 1st level. That's 3 abilities in one (each of which on its own would be more useful).

Stances were not meant to be utility, they were meant to provide a combat boost. And two stances in the Warblade's disciplines enable Scent or Blindsense (Hunter's Sense and Hearing the Air).

Did I mention the Warlock is, if they want, always going to be a better diplomancer than the Warblade? (Beguiling Influence alone is an extra 18 skill point towards the social skills)

This I will not deny, but it is not a balancing point. Diplomacy was included due to the Warblade getting White Raven maneuvers, nothing more.

Now stop trolling.

Edit: One final point to bring up, I do believe I should congratulate you on being the only person I know who has managed to strawman an entire base class. I must admit that I've never seen such a thing before.

Flickerdart

2013-10-29, 12:30 AM

Bandits on a ridge trying to shoot the poor warblade? Why, it's a good thing that Sudden Leap, a 1st level maneuver, lets him seek the safety of cover in a flash.

DR27

2013-10-29, 12:31 AM

I disagree with the sentiment that Warblades aren't T3, which is usually supported by the assertion that Warblades only deal damage. (with concessions for various out of combat useful things, ended by saying "well that doesn't count!") I look at the original post for the Tier System as my guide for this sort of thing:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless.

This doesn't actually reference damage anywhere in the text, and I agree with the concept.

Barbarians for example, which I've seen referenced in this thread as being basically the same as the Warblade for Tier purposes - can do one thing quite well (dealing damage), and are neutered whenever that's not relevant. Dealing tons of damage doesn't usually outright end an encounter unless the DM specifically sets up a single BBE that doesn't have interesting movement modes, with a perfect run-up distance for pounce, and no difficult terrain, etc. They are even more specialized than tons of damage - they deal tons of damage with one specific trick, (charge) and suck without it. The thing they do well is charging, not dealing damage.

Warblades do one thing (deal damage) - but are extremely versatile in their application of that thing. A DM has to really work to prevent the Warblade from doing that thing. Maneuvers allow the Warblade to get around the standard "DM tricks" for damage negation. Can't charge? That's ok. Super high AC? I've got a maneuver for that. etc etc etc.

This versatility difference for me is the difference between T3&T4

137beth

2013-10-29, 01:05 AM

Tier 5 does nothing well. Tier 4 is what you were thinking of. And the Warblade is quite versatile (even at range).

To be fair, the definitions of tier 4 and tier 5 depend a lot on optimization level. Almost all tier 5 classes can be built to be very good one-trick ponies (which, not coincidentally, is why Pickford has tried to justify so many of the tier 5s are "actually" tier 4 through optimization and/or misunderstandings of the rules). Most of the true tier 4 classes achieve some limited functionality outside of their specialty (a ranger or barbarian can track, a rogue can UMD, and a PF-paladin has a small arsenal of useful utility abilities (not that great, but enough to put its versatility well ahead of the PF core-only fighter and core-only monk).
Warblade still comes out ahead of all of those, though--it's out of combat utility is at least comparable to a barbarian, and it's in-combat versatility is far, far better.

Pickford

2013-10-29, 02:40 AM

Ranged combat was not something the Bo9S focused on, even with the Bloodstorm Blade and a small subset of ranged maneuvers. Speaking of, there's enough maneuvers that work with ranged attacks that the Warblade can easily "keep up" with a dedicated archer, albeit at shorter ranges.

I count (out of the schools available to a Warblade):

1 that throws a melee weapon.
0 that work with ranged weapons.
1 pseudo-magic attack

So no, there's really nothing for a Warblade to "keep up" with a dedicated archer.

The developers wanted to de-emphasis sniping and put more focus on point-blank range, as most DMs do not run asinine encounters on flat, featureless fields thousands of feet across with no cover.

How does this excuse the Warblade being incapable of fighting a ranged opponent?

Ride is completely irrelevant to the Warblade's repertoire. They literally have no need for Ride or Handle Animal.

No synergy, this is true, and that's not a good thing. Mobility means being able to hit. If the Warblade is incapable of closing with enemies, they can cat and mouse him to death 100% of the time. Basically playing a Warblade is accepting that your DM will coddle you.

2 things:

Not all Warblades wear medium armor.
There is no such rule that you cannot tumble in medium armor. You are outright mistaken.

Yeah...except there sort of is.
Tumble, PHB 84:

You can't use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot

Hrm...I wonder...oh yes, there's this on armor (PHB 122):

Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down

Ipso facto, Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble, which means they have, essentially, a worthless skill.

Tier 5 does nothing well. Tier 4 is what you were thinking of. And the Warblade is quite versatile (even at range).

No, it does only one thing (melee).

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Several Warblade-compatible maneuvers allow for movement, and a Warblade is fully capable of closing the distance between himself and an archer.

Given that he can't ride, this sounds wholly improbable.

What? At the low levels 90% of all characters are as good as dead in that situation. At the mid-levels that situation would never occur due to flight and WBL. The Warblade is in better shape than most martial classes due to HD, class features that buff his defenses (Wall of Blades, Black Pearl of Doubt, etc), and proficiencies with medium armor and shields (and for not being penalized for using the latter).

Pickford, your situations and ideas of encounters are utterly ludicrous./QUOTE]

Like I said, the other classes have both options to escape and protect themselves, the Warblade doesn't get Tower Shields (which provide cover vs ranged attacks), they can't flee quickly enough (no Riding skills) and they obviously don't have real magic. That leaves them as a sitting duck.

There is nothing at all odd about being ambushed. The fact is the Warblade is ill equipped to survive this, and it's a basic scenario. Once things get complex they are hopelessly lost.

[QUOTE]JaronK has little experience with the Psionic classes, and only listed ones that were petitioned by other forum-goers when the original Tiers system surfaced.

Then he should re-write the system instead of providing contradictory information.

Sundering attended items is pointless. The Mountain Hammer maneuver would be better used attacking the item's holder, not the item itself.

It's pointless to disarm your opponent by destroying their weapon? You have a truly unique view of the word 'pointless'.

Stances were not meant to be utility, they were meant to provide a combat boost. And two stances in the Warblade's disciplines enable Scent or Blindsense (Hunter's Sense and Hearing the Air).

Which don't exactly contribute out of combat. If I wanted to track someone I'd buy a dog (Ranger).

This I will not deny, but it is not a balancing point. Diplomacy was included due to the Warblade getting White Raven maneuvers, nothing more.

Some were claiming that the Warblade could totally be the face, I'm countering by saying the Warlock is a much better face with more out of combat utility.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 06:32 AM

Tumble, PHB 84:

Hrm...I wonder...oh yes, there's this on armor (PHB 122):

Ipso facto, Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble, which means they have, essentially, a worthless skill.

Please explain this to me. You say Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble.

But medium armor provides an armor check penalty, which is defined as:

Any armor heavier than leather hurts a character’s ability to use some skills. An armor check penalty number is the penalty that applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks by a character wearing a certain kind of armor.

Why would an armor check penalty apply to Tumble checks, if, as you argue, they absolutely cannot be made?

Unless you're suggesting that we simply ignore ACP rules.

limejuicepowder

2013-10-29, 06:32 AM

How does this excuse the Warblade being incapable of fighting a ranged opponent?

The warblade is no less capable at range than a barb or melee-oriented fighter is. Fighters can of course specialize in range (and be mediocre at it), but that would be to the detriment of everything else and this is mostly besides the point. Warblades have tools, and a lot of them, to bring combat to where they want to fight it. The barb and fighter do not; they just show up with their one trick and hope it's applicable.

No synergy, this is true, and that's not a good thing. Mobility means being able to hit. If the Warblade is incapable of closing with enemies, they can cat and mouse him to death 100% of the time. Basically playing a Warblade is accepting that your DM will coddle you.

I don't see how this isn't true of EVERY class, but especially the ones that typically where heavy armor (and are slow). Are you saying that every one of your melee characters uses a horse and carries around a tower shield, just in case you get ambushed in a ravine?

No, it does only one thing (melee).

But they do it better than any other class in the game, with ways to make sure it is applicable and relevant (save boosters, immediate action responses, extra senses, ways around certain defenses, etc). Most other melee classes have none of that, and thus they just hope for the best. This makes them less versatile, and effectively weaker.

Talya

2013-10-29, 06:41 AM

Please explain this to me. You say Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble.

By raw you cannot tumble if your speed is impeded by armor.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 06:43 AM

By raw you cannot tumble if your speed is impeded by armor.

Right. In Pickford's quote above, he emphasized the "if your speed is impeded by armor." Perhaps, however, the RAW meant "if your speed is impeded by armor." Different emphasis, different result?

TuggyNE

2013-10-29, 07:18 AM

Please explain this to me. You say Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble.

But medium armor provides an armor check penalty, which is defined as:

Why would an armor check penalty apply to Tumble checks, if, as you argue, they absolutely cannot be made?

Unless you're suggesting that we simply ignore ACP rules.

I can answer that one; you can Tumble in medium or even heavy armor if you have some way of not being slowed by it (for example, dwarf, tooth of ... savnok was it?, and perhaps a few others). So it's neither strictly impossible nor exactly normal to be able to Tumble that way.

Turion

2013-10-29, 07:24 AM

Right. In Pickford's quote above, he emphasized the "if your speed is impeded by armor." Perhaps, however, the RAW meant "if your speed is impeded by armor." Different emphasis, different result?

No, the emphasis there is pretty much spot-on; he wasn't making any claims about speed being reduced through other means (like magic or rough terrain). As it stands, the only ways to tumble in a breastplate are to have it made of mithral or play a dwarf.

Pickford, might I suggest you look at the maneuvers again? They do actually get some fairly nice movement based ones, specifically: leaping Dragon stance, pouncing charge, soaring raptor strike, sudden leap, wolf pack tactics (all tiger claw), battle leader's charge, clarion call, warleader's charge, white raven tactics (all white raven), among others.

Personally, I do think the warblade is actually tier four, since most of its utility is in combat, with precious little to do out of it. (Most of the listed utility stuff is more useful for hitting people with sticks than anything else, honestly.)

On a side note, since when does the tier system take class skills into consideration? I thought that was pretty much the reason why rogues are considered t4; they don't get much aside from skills, and anybody can get skills. Heck, the monk gets diplomacy, and I don't see anyone suggesting that they make good faces.

AmberVael

2013-10-29, 07:42 AM

I count (out of the schools available to a Warblade):

1 that throws a melee weapon.
0 that work with ranged weapons.
1 pseudo-magic attack

There really aren't many maneuvers that can augment ranged attacks, but there ARE some that you're missing here. My favorites are Time Stands Still, Dancing Mongoose, and Raging Mongoose. And honestly, they're probably the only ones worth mentioning.

Of course, there are still plenty of maneuvers that have nothing to do with what weapon you're using that can help you out in combat.

On a side note, since when does the tier system take class skills into consideration? I thought that was pretty much the reason why rogues are considered t4; they don't get much aside from skills, and anybody can get skills. Heck, the monk gets diplomacy, and I don't see anyone suggesting that they make good faces.

Skills should always be in consideration- it's just that they're generally not enough on their own, and that 8 skill points per level isn't as much of an advantage as it might sound. Something like Factotum definitely benefits from its skills, and it gets more out of them than Rogue due to its ability to be proficient with so many of them through the various bonuses they get.

Talya

2013-10-29, 08:32 AM

It's academic. No warblade uses a breastplate until they can afford mithral. Then it's either a mithral breastplate (not impeded), or mithral full plate (maximum armor class).

Ranged physical combat is a generally a poor choice in D&D, for several reasons.

(1) The vast majority of fights take place in tight enclosed spaces. It is dungeons and dragons, after all.
(2) In places where it would work, absolute defenses against it are trivially easy to come by and very low level, forcing people to close to melee range if they can't use magic.
(3) Without extreme levels of optimization, the damage is negligible. With extreme levels of optimization, the damage is still negligible in comparison to highly optimized melee.
(4) Most monster manual entries don't use anything other than natural weapons.

The bottom line is, the vast majority fights happen in melee, or very short range. Period.

Chronos

2013-10-29, 08:47 AM

Scow2

2013-10-29, 08:51 AM

Right. In Pickford's quote above, he emphasized the "if your speed is impeded by armor." Perhaps, however, the RAW meant "if your speed is impeded by armor." Different emphasis, different result?He was pointing out that armor is one of the speed impeders that negate tumble ability.

That said... an ambush in the ravine? Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Whatever The Hell You Want) works wonders, as do all the jumplomancy abilities a warblade has access to. It's VERY hard keeping a Warblade on the wrong side of a ravine.

Furthermore, Tumble as a class skill is useful even if it requires specific broad builds to make use of (Such as any Light Armor user which is almost as good as Medium Armor anyway, or a Mithril Body Warforged)

Talya

2013-10-29, 08:52 AM

Granted that you usually can't tumble in medium armor, that still doesn't make it a useless skill. There's no law that says that a character absolutely must wear the heaviest armor available to them. You can play a tanky warblade wearing a breastplate, or you can play a more mobile warblade wearing a chain shirt. You have a choice.

You were swordsaged.

I don't think any warblade would wear a breastplate until they can afford mithral. Prior to that, +1 AC is not worth the mobility and ACP difference with a chain shirt.

Once they can afford Mithral, it's either a breastplate or full plate. If you go the latter, you aren't tumbling (unless you're a dwarf), and you're slow. If you go the former, nothing's stopping you from tumbling your iron heart out.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 08:56 AM

He was pointing out that armor is one of the speed impeders that negate tumble ability.

That said... an ambush in the ravine? Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Whatever The Hell You Want) works wonders, as do all the jumplomancy abilities a warblade has access to. It's VERY hard keeping a Warblade on the wrong side of a ravine.

Furthermore, Tumble as a class skill is useful even if it requires specific broad builds to make use of (Such as any Light Armor user which is almost as good as Medium Armor anyway, or a Mithril Body Warforged)

Yeah, I went back to check, and suddenly realized that pretty much all medium armor (excluding Mithral) impedes speed. Durp, silly me. (I was under the mistaken impression that some medium armor didn't do that, because I had foolishly neglected to double-check my book before posting.)

Disregard Uncle Fel's silliness. Be awesome and carry on.

Socratov

2013-10-29, 08:57 AM

if I might chime in here with some cp...

first on the warlock. I won't hold back that the warlock is one of my more favorite classes thus I'm slighlty biased, but I'll compare it to the iconic T3 class: the bard.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well(1), while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate(2), or capable of doing all things(3), but not as well as classes that specialize in that area(4). Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter(5), but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
(formatting in bold mine)

I will assume warlock 20 for this, and all books, no dragon mag.

1: has the warlock this ability? Yes. I'd argue that the warlock is great at crafting. If you'd only take scribe scroll the warlock can get any scroll out there, be it divine, arcane, whatever you want. He can also with the investment of craft wand create metamagic wands

2: does the warlock have any non spell plusses? yes I'd argue that his dispelling is quite adequate with voracious dispelling and devour magic. he also has beguiling influence and with some CHA focus (he is a NAD class so you can easily pick this up) he can dominate social encounters.

3: can he do anything? No, not really. However he has quite some of the tools thought of as being standard arsenal: flying, ranged damage, melee damage (glaive), battlefield control (blast essences, chilling tentacles, baleful polymorph). He has the options if you build him for it. That will, however, diminish other options.

4: certainly true: he won't deal as much damage as a lion totem shock trooper barbarian with PA and a greatsword. he won't be as good as sneaking as a rogue, and he certainly won't outdo the factotum at utility.

5: to paraphrase Xykon: :xykon: "Sacrificing Minions: is there any problem it can't solve?". With leadership (1 feat investment) or the dead walk (1 invocation) he can get those minions and use them to his ability.

So, principles 1-5 all apply to the warlock. This urges me to believe that a lvl 20 warlock can do these things. Especially if he picks up the Extra invocation feat.

However, the warlock has criticisms (spoilered for length)

Note about Warlocks: Warlocks can get very good when Prestige Classes are added, and the fact that they can eventually (like, level 17) give creatures negative levels, in an area, with damage, make them great for killing low-level mooks. In theory, warlocks have access to many sorcerer/wizard spells, like baleful polymorph, see invisibility, wall of flame, evards black tentacles, summon swarm, and so on. However, at 20th level, they only get 12 invocations out of their large list, and usually, 2 of those are Utterdark Blast (for negative levels) and Eldritch Doom (for the AoE). Maybe add in Eldritch Spear for long range...

They are good 5th party members, assuming you have the 4 basic roles filled. They also get a bunch of class abilities relating to UMD, the best skill ever. And Cha synergy! -Generic_PC

Cons: Their best invocations are equivalent to sixth level spells. Spells double in power every two levels or so. A warlock, therefore, is shooting bullets that are far less effective than the wizard's. Staying power really doesn't matter at higher levels because at that point each attack is essentially save or die - would you rather like a bucket of rocks or one rocket launcher?

Time stop renders the warlock completely irrelevant for combat - the wizard already summoned a bunch of monsters in one turn, and is now shapechanged into a monster with better abilities and attacks than the lower tiers. -The_Mad_Linguist
--------------------------------------------

Make a warlock, an archer and a specialist wizard at the same level. Pick 4 (or eight) different monsters of that ECL. Have the monsters stand there while the ranged damage guys hurt them. See how many rounds it takes each class to kill the monsters. If you pick 8 monsters, let the wizard rememorise spells after 4 (usually 4 encounters per day).

Warlock will probably be last for most levels between about 6 and 20.

So a warlock is a (stand at range and put hurt on the target guy). The 2 most common classes at that role are both better at it than him. Argument over.

If an arguement starts about how many more things the warlock can do than the archer, calculate the cost to duplicate the warlocks abilities. Ring of Invisibility-20 k, Flying carpet... eyes of charming ... Now ask them how much it will cost them to raise the warlocks damage to an amount equal to the archer. They cant. Priceless... -Braithwaite
--------------------------------------------

9d6 damage at level 20 with a standard action is just pathetic, especially if it's subject to spell resistance. Even 1d6 damage at level 1 isn't that good.

One limiting factor for invocations is that a warlock is only going to know 12 of them at the most through out his whole career, unless he wants to burn feats on extra invocation. Knowing only a handful of tricks gives you no flexibility when it comes to dealing with situations. -Ninjarabbit
--------------------------------------------
After about level 6, your damage just drops off until it takes 15 or so hits to kill something, even though you are rolling 9 dice each hit. Meanwhile that Barbarian is doing x4 damage, and getting x6 on power attack, rolling 2 dice and getting 100 damage. But ultimately, you lack the damage to be a focused ranged attacker, and the versatility to make up for that, so you don't get to be a high tier. -Generic_PC

Pros: The damage portion of the class has been fixed since the Fiendish Codex II came out. Unless you are a Theurgic build there is no reason not to take Hellfire Warlock, which gives +6d6 damage to your EB and allows you to fire it as an immediate action when someone hits you. With a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power adding a further +2d6 your looking at a 17d6 ray, or about 59 damage. This of course can be done as part of a cone shaped blast to several foes and it also bestows two negative levels on a failed save. And if someone were to attack you then you could further add another 17d6 damage to the list. The Eldritch Glaive shape and Empower/Maximize Spell-Like Ability feats shoves those numbers into the range of an uber charger only better. It requires less feats (just maximize really), only an item or two (grab a rod for +5d6 damage), can be implanted into any non-theurgic build with very little effort (one least invocation slot) and has an almost guaranteed chance to hit even on the last attack where most pounce builds tend to miss. -SorO_Lost
--------------------------------------------

Warlocks are flavourful characters. They seem great at first glance, with unlimited SLAs and a ranged touch attack which adds d6 every 2 levels (or something). At early levels, they are great characters too. +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate is probably going to raise your check to higher than +10 at first level. Charisma based DCs help with social skills even more, and the invocations are great. But... Only at early levels. 2d6 every round isn't bad at level 3, where that Barbarian is still doing 2d6+1.5Str, but it won't last. At least you still have Invisibility, Flight, Negative Levels (In an area, +9d6 damage), whenever you want. -Generic_PC

So the main poit here is the arsenal: only 12 invocations unless feats are spent on extra invocation. this is a true thing and why the warlock won't make top T3 like a bard, and the damage warlocks deal is lacking to say the least. I can see why some people woudl place the warlock in T4 (though top T4), but personally I think the warlock is T3 because of the option that can be built into him. This depends on what people would define to be medium optimization...

the warblade however is the inverted story.

He does damage quite well and has a mordicum of options in combat. However, his out of combat abilities are lacking. yes he can intimidate, but with no cha synergy (it's a dumpstat on a warblade) he won't be as strong as the warlock of bard. He will be like a warblade or fighter when it comes with traps: he will rush into them, take the hits and mov eon. with one exception: he can shrug off negative effects with Iron Heart Surge. But is it enough to bump him up a tier for that? I think not. Let's see what is said on the warblade over at BG ok? (again spoilered for length and cluttering)

A note on the Warblade: Warblades are tier 3 only because 9th level spells are better than the rule books and not because the monster manuals are packed full of monsters that can kill them. Being the horseman War is great and all, but it will always be second best to a god. -SorO_Lost

Cons: They don't have ranged attacks and always have to use mithral as their armor's material if they want to use full-plate. That's it. -SorO_Lost

Pros: Warblades are simply the best melee class ever.

Ok to reiterate, Warblades pack a d12 hit dice, full BAB, proficiency with all melee martial weapons, and up to medium armor as their basic class stats meaning they are meant for melee combat. From there things go uphill at a staggering pace.

For one thing they are the smart fighter, none of that 'Thorg smash puppies' stuff fighters do. Warblades get bonuses for having intelligence such as adding their int bonus to reflex saves, crit confirmation, damage rolls when flanking, all those combat maneuvers in the PHB, and finally attack and damage rolls for AOOs. Oh and did I mention they sport 4 skill points per level and can pick up skills like balance,tumble and intimidate?

Another thing to mention is Weapon Aptitude which not only lets you have access to but lets you swap your Weapon Focus chain of feats on the fly. Did you focus on longswords but find this awesome mace? Spend an hour playing with it and poof, instant retraining with no XP cost!

By the 6th level a warblade has improved uncanny dodge and a bonus feat. Later on they will pick up an additional three bonus feats from a limited but useful list. It's kinda like stealing class abilities from the Barbarian and Fighter at the same time.

Then there is the maneuver system the ToB introduced of course, the warblade gets the best recovery mechanic of all the classes. When you run out of maneuvers just attack someone. Yes I said attack them. I mean in a boring no maneuvers used sort of way, but it's the same exact (full) attack actions that you are used to using and the monsters still are. Walk over and beat the every living crap out of something to recover your maneuvers to beat the remaining blood out of them next round. Fun times.

Warblades can choose from any of the unsupernatural style of schools. They are realistic and in your face. They don't care about such things like fire, ghosting people, or purifying the wicked. Keep it simple, the pointy end goes into the foe a dozen times or the sharp edge slices them into pieces. Expect your average warblade to ignore save or die effects, to break battle control effects cast at them, to set the battle field in favorable conditions and exploit it, and to be seen helping the entire party's melee capabilities.

Finally, even those high nosed RPers will love the warblade. Now they have rules and effects backing such stories as 'I leap up and slice the snake's head clean off'. Even the most boring of players will find them selves shouting out the names of their attacks and bragging about how cool their character looks while swinging his sword. No more boring 'I attack..." comments. Ever. Well, unless it's part of a small joke, such as 'I attack... With my Finishing Move after flash stepping behind them and my blade lights up resembling molten lava to burn away their very soul!'. Maneuvers are so flavorful...
-SorO_Lost

So, their manuevers are only second to lvl 9 spells (or at least some of them). However, to me while combat is certianly more interesting with a lot more options, the options are mainly kept to combat and not out of combat. So in my eyes, while very strong, they excel at only 1 thing: combat, and only have 1 option (intimidate) for anything other, and not even a strong intimidate (no way to boost it, no cha synergy). So to me Warblade is a very strong T4 class, but not quite T3

This does not mean that the warlock is stronger then the warblade, it's more that compared to eachother, the warlock is a swiss army knife (leatherman is reserved for factotum), while the warblade is a bowie knife. (for clarification, swiss army knife is useful mostly out of combat and for tricks, while the bowie knife is veritable tool of carnage and destruction granting options in combat)

Scow2

2013-10-29, 09:00 AM

Personally, I do think the warblade is actually tier four, since most of its utility is in combat, with precious little to do out of it. (Most of the listed utility stuff is more useful for hitting people with sticks than anything else, honestly.)Most of D&D is about combat. A warblade can make things that weren't about combat into something about combat. And, "Hitting Things" isn't a category on the tier list because it's too broad. If you're as universally good in combat as a Warblade is, you're at least Tier 3, because combat has so many different options. A warblade can negate cover, ignore armor, interpose himself between monsters and more fragile enemies, take hits, ignore spells, dismiss status conditions, blow up the sun, ignore rough terrain, put himself where people really don't want him to be, use any weapon he damn well feels like, buy a nonassociated feat with a slot freed up by his bonus feats, invest in skill tricks with his bonus skill points (Over the fighter or paladin), Dump WIS instead of CHA and be the party's Hero, and do consistent damage even in unfavorable conditions (Unlike any other class in the game).

Why do people dump CHA instead of WIS on the Warblade? Will saves are handled by Moment of Perfect Mind and Iron Heart Surge.

Talya

2013-10-29, 09:03 AM

Repetition: 9th Level Maneuvers or 20th level warlock capabilities don't factor into the tier system. The tier system rates a class where it is most likely to see the most play - from levels 6-15.

Also "versatility" does not mean "outside of combat." As has been noted, most of D&D is in combat. Versatility also means "can do a lot of different things to ruin your day in combat."

That said, the Warblade has more utility out of combat than fighters, barbarians, or paladins, with three or four great non-combat tools at their disposal.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 09:34 AM

I count (out of the schools available to a Warblade):

1 that throws a melee weapon.
0 that work with ranged weapons.
1 pseudo-magic attack

So no, there's really nothing for a Warblade to "keep up" with a dedicated archer.

Pseudo-magic? Are you reading the right maneuvers?

Here's a nice full list of what maneuvers can work for a ranged Warblade. It was literally the first hit in Google for "Ranged Warblade".

The following martial stances are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants

Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity
Stance of Clarity

Iron Heart
Absolute Steel
Supreme Blade Parry

Stone Dragon
Giants Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Strenth of Stone
Roots of the mountain

Tiger Claw
Blood in the Water
Hunters Sense
Leaping Dragon Stance

White Raven
Bolstering Voice
Leading the Charge
Press the Advantage
Swarm Tactics

The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought
Diamond Defense
Mind over body
Moment of Alacrity
Quicksilver Motion
*Time Stands Still

Iron Heart
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Focus
Iron Heart Surge

Stone Dragon
*Adamantine Bones
Boulder Roll
*EarthStrike Quake
Mountain Avalanche

Tiger Claw
**Dancing Mongoose
Fountain of Blood
**Raging Mongoose
Sudden Leap

White Raven
Lions Roar
Order Forged From Chaos
White Raven Tactics

* strikes that work with ranged weapons
** boosts that grant extra attacks that work with ranged weapons

No synergy, this is true, and that's not a good thing. Mobility means being able to hit. If the Warblade is incapable of closing with enemies, they can cat and mouse him to death 100% of the time. Basically playing a Warblade is accepting that your DM will coddle you.

Warblades always have access to their Move actions provided an outside source isn't preventing them from using it or the Warblade hasn't taken his full turn. Several maneuvers allow for movement before or during their initiation (notably Sudden Leap and Quicksilver Motion), preventing the Warblade from being kited.

Edit: And when did the word "Mobility" get a definition shift? Cause the actual definition has nothing to do with being able to hit.

mo·bil·i·ty [moh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
the quality of being mobile.

mo·bile [moh-buhl, -beel or, esp. British, -bahyl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
capable of moving or being moved readily.

Yeah...except there sort of is.
Tumble, PHB 84:

Hrm...I wonder...oh yes, there's this on armor (PHB 122):

Ipso facto, Warblades in medium armor cannot tumble, which means they have, essentially, a worthless skill.

Accepted, there are still a few ways around it (mithral, Dwarf Warblade, Tooth of Savnok).

No, it does only one thing (melee).

I just disproved that, although I don't know why I bothered. Facts only seem to matter to you when they support your case, and you ignore the ones that don't.

Given that he can't ride, this sounds wholly improbable.

Again, Sudden Leap and Quicksilver Motion. Using your ludicrous "bandits on a ridge" example, Ride would be completely useless in that situation whereas those maneuvers would give the Warblade a fighting chance at getting to his opponents.

And don't bring flying mounts into this, as by the time those are affordable the Warblade can get access to flight.

Like I said, the other classes have both options to escape and protect themselves, the Warblade doesn't get Tower Shields (which provide cover vs ranged attacks), they can't flee quickly enough (no Riding skills) and they obviously don't have real magic. That leaves them as a sitting duck.

See above.

There is nothing at all odd about being ambushed. The fact is the Warblade is ill equipped to survive this, and it's a basic scenario. Once things get complex they are hopelessly lost.

There is with the situation you described.

Warblade by himself wandering through a ravine (outright insane).
The challenge rating of the encounter (if encountered prior to level 3 the encounter would be several points higher on the CR system due to terrain, anything past that Flight is available and the encounter becomes irrelevant).
Assuming the encounter is properly CR'ed for a solo character the bandits wouldn't be able to hit the Warblade without Nat 20s, and the Wall of Blades maneuver allows him to withstand some of those critical threats.

Then he should re-write the system instead of providing contradictory information.

Maybe you shouldn't try to carry out your personal vendetta against the Tiers system in a thread you didn't start.

It's pointless to disarm your opponent by destroying their weapon? You have a truly unique view of the word 'pointless'.

Sundering is only useful in a situation where the enemy either has no natural weapons or isn't carrying a backup weapon. In any case other than that the Mountain Hammer maneuver is better used hitting the enemy directly instead of wasting an action to try and destroy something that would take two or more hits.

In any scenario, Disarming is much more efficient than Sundering. And what do you know, there's a Warblade maneuver specifically designed for that.

Which don't exactly contribute out of combat. If I wanted to track someone I'd buy a dog (Ranger).

Scent is useful in combat as a miniature version of Blindsense.

Some were claiming that the Warblade could totally be the face, I'm countering by saying the Warlock is a much better face with more out of combat utility.

The Warlock can be built as such, but the Warlock doesn't have Diplomacy as a class skill, and Beguiling Influence is only a +6 bonus.

Both classes are capable of being a "face", but I will concede that the Warlock is the more capable of the two at true Diplomancy (that is, turning people into mindless fanatics). The Warblade needs more effort to do the same, and it just isn't worth the investment due to it eating into his combat efficiency.

Talya

2013-10-29, 09:47 AM

The Warblade is a much better ranged combatant than the fighter, for a few reasons:

(1) Higher dexterity. Fighters, while they don't usually completely dump dexterity, usually focus on strength and constitution because they're going to be wearing heavy armor rendering their dexterity mostly pointless. Warblades need more dexterity to start with.
(2) Floating proficiencies. All you need to do is take Exotic Weapon Proficiency once and you can apply it to any exotic weapon you like in the morning with Weapon Aptitude. Anyone want a greatbow?
(3) Maneuvers and stances that work with ranged. As noted above, there are a bunch of them.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 09:50 AM

As a matter of fact, the second page of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311120) (shameless plug) happens to have some mildly incredible ranged Warblade/ Eternal Blade discussion. Not playing a ranged character, I didn't follow most of it, but it certainly sounded impressive.

So, yes. A Warblade can be built to slaughter at range, too.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 10:01 AM

So, yes. A Warblade can be built to slaughter at range, too.

And the same maneuvers that enable his ranged combat options prevent him from being caught with his pants down when forced into melee.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 10:17 AM

Pickford, quit picking completely arbitrary scenarios. Last time you did this you tried to prove a Fighter was powerful by making a Fighter who would lose (badly) to a riding dog in a dungeon because all he could do was shoot at long range while riding a light horse, which would probably die. Remember: large sized mounts don't fit in many dungeons. And wielding a club and limited armor as your only close range gear is a terrible plan.

And yes, Warblades make amazing archers. They do need to dip for proficiencies (my favorite dip for this is actually Targeteer Fighter 2), but Blood in the Water and various maneuvers make them incredible if done right. And those same archers are also great in melee. They don't do this at level 1 of course, but nobody runs around solo at level 1 getting ambushed by bandits from unreachable positions anyway.

JaronK

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 10:36 AM

AmberVael

2013-10-29, 10:39 AM

Or you could just be an elf. The hit to con isn't great, but it uses minimal resources and gets things done cleanly.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 10:39 AM

If I'm going super high op, I'd go with a Splitting Aptitude Great Crossbow combined with Hand Crossbow Focus. That gives incredible rate of fire. With Improved Critical and Blood in the Water, your damage shoots up rather impressively. Throw in Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick if you want near infinite attacks. Whee!

JaronK

Amphetryon

2013-10-29, 12:06 PM

JaronK

2013-10-29, 12:10 PM

Make that save against Augmented Death Urge.

No problem. Still a Warblade!

JaronK

Talya

2013-10-29, 12:31 PM

Concentration check will save!

JaronK

2013-10-29, 12:31 PM

Bingo. Almost like the class comes with real defenses!

JaronK

AmberVael

2013-10-29, 12:33 PM

And then the warblade gets hit with a second one and they cry. :smalltongue:
(Still a good maneuver to have though).

Talya

2013-10-29, 12:41 PM

And then the warblade gets hit with a second one and they cry. :smalltongue:
(Still a good maneuver to have though).

If they haven't recovered their maneuvers already by then (I was paranoid when I played a warblade - if Moment of Perfect Mind was used, I recovered maneuvers at my very next opportunity, which as a warblade, really doesn't slow you down at all), they may still have Diamond Defense ready.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 12:43 PM

If they haven't recovered their maneuvers already by then (I was paranoid when I played a warblade - if Moment of Perfect Mind was used, I recovered maneuvers at my very next opportunity, which as a warblade, really doesn't slow you down at all), they may still have Diamond Defense ready.

If you recovered your maneuvers you can't initiate any until the next round.

Pickford

2013-10-29, 12:51 PM

I don't see how this isn't true of EVERY class, but especially the ones that typically where heavy armor (and are slow). Are you saying that every one of your melee characters uses a horse and carries around a tower shield, just in case you get ambushed in a ravine?

I outlined, generically, that the other classes each have methods of escape or to survive in such situations. The Warblade does not.

And yeah, if you don't have 'some' kind of plan for an ambush, then the character is relying mostly on luck to survive.

Turion:

Pickford, might I suggest you look at the maneuvers again? They do actually get some fairly nice movement based ones, specifically: leaping Dragon stance, pouncing charge, soaring raptor strike, sudden leap, wolf pack tactics (all tiger claw), battle leader's charge, clarion call, warleader's charge, white raven tactics (all white raven), among others.

Personally, I do think the warblade is actually tier four, since most of its utility is in combat, with precious little to do out of it. (Most of the listed utility stuff is more useful for hitting people with sticks than anything else, honestly.)

On a side note, since when does the tier system take class skills into consideration? I thought that was pretty much the reason why rogues are considered t4; they don't get much aside from skills, and anybody can get skills. Heck, the monk gets diplomacy, and I don't see anyone suggesting that they make good faces.

If the tier system disregards skills, than that is a serious flaw. Everybody gets some skill points, but not as many as a rogue and only a rogue (in core) can disable traps or forge documents (anyone else could only CC, and not magical traps then), and they are one of only 2 classes to do many of the other skills.

The problem with the maneuvers you listed are: The white raven ones are just regular charges with some added damage bonuses. They wouldn't be useful unless you could already reach the person easily. The Tiger claw ones either require you to be in melee range already or simply make you make a jump check. Again, neither is going to get you somewhere you couldn't already get (the +10 jump check might be useful, but that's mostly because it's the equivalent of the feat that considers you to always be running from standing jumps)

Talya:
1) I don't think we have actual statistics to back any claim about what percentage of fights take place where.

2) Early defenses either last a round a level (wind wall), or can be brought down via damage (protection from arrows is only 30 points when first available and fails vs magic)

3) If most enemies lack a ranged attack, that just speaks well of the utility of ranged attacks. (i.e. Living people don't usually bare-hand box bears)

4) (I think this one is out of numerical order but whatever) Having no ranged weapon is simply automatically worse than having one. There may be a situation where having weapons is a good idea, but it's a bad idea to be carrying a ranged weapon...but I'm thinking it's niche.

Big_Fau:
That list is incorrect. Adamantine Bones requires a melee attack, it says so in the description, therefore it can't be used with ranged weapons.
Time Stands Still works...but it's also 9th level, so really it might as well not.
Earthquake Strike just works, it doesn't matter what weapon you're using because it doesn't take that into account (I think this was the pseudo-magic attack, iirc)

On mobility: The Warblade won't catch a horse, and can't fight a Wizard who's flying. If I recall correctly, the most significant knock against a Monk is that it doesn't have much of anything to deal with a Dragon in Flight or a Wizard using the Fly spell. The thing is...the Monk at least has a crossbow. What does the Warblade have innately?

Conversion of a swift action to a move action is great and all...but that's not going to catch a horse.

And don't bring flying mounts into this, as by the time those are affordable the Warblade can get access to flight.

From?

3.Assuming the encounter is properly CR'ed for a solo character the bandits wouldn't be able to hit the Warblade without Nat 20s, and the Wall of Blades maneuver allows him to withstand some of those critical threats.

So the situation is unfair unless it's tailor made to allow the Warblade to triumph?

Talya: The Warblade needs to pump int and str, there's no way he's also pumping con and dex too.

JaronK:

They do need to dip for proficiencies (my favorite dip for this is actually Targeteer Fighter 2)

So really, it's not the Warblade that makes an Archer, it's the Fighter.

lsfreak

2013-10-29, 12:54 PM

If you recovered your maneuvers you can't initiate any until the next round.

Not exactly. Here's what it says:
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your chance while you are recovering your maneuvers."

Now that has problems (if it bars you from taking a move action like it seems to imply, why isn't it a full-round action?), but I see nothing that prevents you from initiating Immediate-action counters once your turn is over.

Talya

2013-10-29, 12:57 PM

Not exactly. Here's what it says:
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your chance while you are recovering your maneuvers."

Now that has problems (if it bars you from taking a move action, why isn't it a full-round action?), but I see nothing that prevents you from initiating Immediate-action counters once your turn is over.

it's more correct to say it's difficult to recover your expended maneuvers on the turn immediately after using Moment of Perfect Mind. Your immediate action counter used up your swift action that turn (although nothing prevents you from using a longer action like a move action to perform the same thing). The moment your turn is over, that immediate action refreshes, and you can use Moment of Perfect Mind again.

AmberVael

2013-10-29, 01:01 PM

it's more correct to say it's difficult to recover your expended maneuvers on the turn immediately after using Moment of Perfect Mind. Your immediate action counter used up your swift action that turn (although nothing prevents you from using a longer action like a move action to perform the same thing). The moment your turn is over, that immediate action refreshes, and you can use Moment of Perfect Mind again.

That's not actually a thing. :smallconfused:
You can use a standard action to perform a move action instead, but as far as I know, there is no way to get more than one swift action per round without specific features to allow it.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 01:01 PM

it's more correct to say it's difficult to recover your expended maneuvers on the turn immediately after using Moment of Perfect Mind. Your immediate action counter used up your swift action that turn (although nothing prevents you from using a longer action like a move action to perform the same thing). The moment your turn is over, that immediate action refreshes, and you can use Moment of Perfect Mind again.

Although, even if you're caught with MoPM down, you should still have IHS on standby to shrug off anything that might hit you in the interim.

There's just no justification for a Warblade to lack IHS.

Talya

2013-10-29, 01:05 PM

Although, even if you're caught with MoPM down, you should still have IHS on standby to shrug off anything that might hit you in the interim.

There's just no justification for a Warblade to lack IHS.

I have a difficult time justifying IHS use in a situation where you are under compulsion. Using IHS is a conscious thing, and if Death Urge takes effect, your current goal is to kill yourself, not to get rid of the Death Urge effect. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it.

Flickerdart

2013-10-29, 01:06 PM

I have a difficult time justifying IHS use in a situation where you are under compulsion. Using IHS is a conscious thing, and if Death Urge takes effect, your current goal is to kill yourself, not to get rid of the Death Urge effect. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it.
IHS yourself.

Shining Wrath

2013-10-29, 01:07 PM

And then the warblade gets hit with a second one and they cry. :smalltongue:
(Still a good maneuver to have though).

There's still Iron Heart Focus, which lets you roll a second time if you didn't like your first roll. Raises your average D20 roll to a bit shy of 15.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 01:08 PM

That list is incorrect. Adamantine Bones requires a melee attack, it says so in the description, therefore it can't be used with ranged weapons.
Time Stands Still works...but it's also 9th level, so really it might as well not.
Earthquake Strike just works, it doesn't matter what weapon you're using because it doesn't take that into account (I think this was the pseudo-magic attack, iirc)

There are still plenty of other maneuvers, and one wrong one doesn't invalidate the entire list.

On mobility: The Warblade won't catch a horse, and can't fight a Wizard who's flying. If I recall correctly, the most significant knock against a Monk is that it doesn't have much of anything to deal with a Dragon in Flight or a Wizard using the Fly spell. The thing is...the Monk at least has a crossbow. What does the Warblade have innately?

So now the bandits are on horses? The Warblade does have thrown weapons, and I'm AFB so I can't check which ones have what ranges.

Conversion of a swift action to a move action is great and all...but that's not going to catch a horse.

Again, who brought up horses besides you?

From?

Race, magic items, feats, grafts, the list is actually rather nice.

So the situation is unfair unless it's tailor made to allow the Warblade to triumph?

You need to calculate the CR of the encounter. A group of 6 or 7 Human Warrior 1s all armed with ranged weapons sitting on top of a ridge is going to be around a CR 4, possibly even CR 5. A low-level Warblade is only going to survive on luck, but so is a majority of the other classes in this game due to sheer firepower and terrain disadvantage. That scenario is nigh unto impossible for a solo character, and a party below 3rd level is going to be hard pressed without something like Wind Wall or a Protection from Arrows spell (and that won't actually help).

I think an Incarnate or Totemist could do it with the right soulmelds, but they would be in pretty bad shape afterwards and not capable of handling further encounters that day.

Past 5th level the encounter would have to be scaled up to match, and the only method of doing so is either increasing the number of enemies (which means the attack bonuses stay the same, which means they won't hurt the Warblade), or by adjusting the HD of the bandits (and you can't go too far with that without making the encounter overwhelming again).

A 5th level Warblade is going to have the resilience needed to overcome a properly CRed encounter, and would have a multitude of options when it comes to actually fighting the bandits. You'd have to adjust the encounter to be appropriate for a solo character.

So it's a knife's edge, and not something you can just pull out of your ass (like you typically do).

There's also the fact that it is an utterly stupid scenario to begin with (seriously, what the hell kind of high-Int character like a Warblade wanders through a ravine solo?). Ambushes do happen, but not by sheer stupidity. The Warblade likely has a positive Int modifier, and is capable of seeing just how risky that endeavor would be.

Being ambushed in a town alley is a far more likely scenario, and in that case there would be easy cover nearby and several ways out (notably, Mountain Hammering a wall).

So really, it's not the Warblade that makes an Archer, it's the Fighter.

No, that just gained him proficiency with the weapon. The feats and maneuvers are what made the Warblade an archer.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 01:08 PM

That's not actually a thing. :smallconfused:
You can use a standard action to perform a move action instead, but as far as I know, there is no way to get more than one swift action per round without specific features to allow it.

Well, how I would say it is "You use a standard action to do something that is a Swift Action normally." Which should be a rule, by RAW, much like the Move actions, but I do not think it works like that... *begins research*

lsfreak

2013-10-29, 01:09 PM

Your immediate action counter used up your swift action that turn
Man, I'm more out of it than I thought. I don't know how wrote all that without it sinking in.

(although nothing prevents you from using a longer action like a move action to perform the same thing).
AmberVael is right about this, though. It's not actually a thing to take a swift action as something else.

Although, even if you're caught with MoPM down, you should still have IHS on standby to shrug off anything that might hit you in the interim.
Well, maybe, but using IHS takes a standard action and thus delays recovery another round, and fails to protect against some things (like that death urge that was mentioned). There's also Iron Heart Focus and Diamond Defense, though they're higher level and still take up the Immediate action, preventing recovery. Stance of Alacrity kicks in at 15th level, beyond the scope of many/most campaigns, where you could use one of those and recover them as soon as they're expended.

EDIT:

Well, how I would say it is "You use a standard action to do something that is a Swift Action normally."
Yea, when I see it brought up, the general consensus is that such a houserule should be Swift to Standard, not Swift to Move. Though personally I don't think there'd be any problem with making warblade recovery a swift or move action.

Equinox

2013-10-29, 01:10 PM

Although, even if you're caught with MoPM down, you should still have IHS on standby to shrug off anything that might hit you in the interim.

There's just no justification for a Warblade to lack IHS.

Barring silly and half-humorous interpretations, IHS is a lot less useful than people tend to think. Stunned or nauseated? Can't end the stunning/dazed/nauseated conditions, because, well, can't take actions. Paralyzed? Petrified? "To initiate a maneuver you must be able to move", quoting ToB. Charmed or Dominated? Your new overlord commands you to obey him, so you can't even think of initiating IHS. Confused? Have to wait to get "act normally" on the percentile die before IHS can be initiated. Cowering? Can't take actions. Panicked? Can't take actions other than fleeing. Fascinated? Again, can't take actions.

[those are all examples of things I have seen players actually try to do with IHS. They were very surprised to learn that none of that works]

AmberVael

2013-10-29, 01:11 PM

Well, how I would say it is "You use a standard action to do something that is a Swift Action normally." Which should be a rule, by RAW, much like the Move actions, but I do not think it works like that... *begins research*

It does not, but yeah, it's usually pretty reasonable to rule that way.
Doesn't particularly help the poor Warblade though, given that they'd need to take two standard actions in one round to make that work... and even if they had a Belt of Battle, it takes a swift action to use which just puts them back in the same situation as before. :smalltongue:

Long story short, this is why Stance of Alacrity is the second best stance of them all. (First is Aura of Perfect Order).

Tvtyrant

2013-10-29, 01:13 PM

Shining Wrath

2013-10-29, 01:15 PM

I outlined, generically, that the other classes each have methods of escape or to survive in such situations. The Warblade does not.

And yeah, if you don't have 'some' kind of plan for an ambush, then the character is relying mostly on luck to survive.

Turion:

If the tier system disregards skills, than that is a serious flaw. Everybody gets some skill points, but not as many as a rogue and only a rogue (in core) can disable traps or forge documents (anyone else could only CC, and not magical traps then), and they are one of only 2 classes to do many of the other skills.

The problem with the maneuvers you listed are: The white raven ones are just regular charges with some added damage bonuses. They wouldn't be useful unless you could already reach the person easily. The Tiger claw ones either require you to be in melee range already or simply make you make a jump check. Again, neither is going to get you somewhere you couldn't already get (the +10 jump check might be useful, but that's mostly because it's the equivalent of the feat that considers you to always be running from standing jumps)

Talya:
1) I don't think we have actual statistics to back any claim about what percentage of fights take place where.

2) Early defenses either last a round a level (wind wall), or can be brought down via damage (protection from arrows is only 30 points when first available and fails vs magic)

3) If most enemies lack a ranged attack, that just speaks well of the utility of ranged attacks. (i.e. Living people don't usually bare-hand box bears)

4) (I think this one is out of numerical order but whatever) Having no ranged weapon is simply automatically worse than having one. There may be a situation where having weapons is a good idea, but it's a bad idea to be carrying a ranged weapon...but I'm thinking it's niche.

Big_Fau:
That list is incorrect. Adamantine Bones requires a melee attack, it says so in the description, therefore it can't be used with ranged weapons.
Time Stands Still works...but it's also 9th level, so really it might as well not.
Earthquake Strike just works, it doesn't matter what weapon you're using because it doesn't take that into account (I think this was the pseudo-magic attack, iirc)

On mobility: The Warblade won't catch a horse, and can't fight a Wizard who's flying. If I recall correctly, the most significant knock against a Monk is that it doesn't have much of anything to deal with a Dragon in Flight or a Wizard using the Fly spell. The thing is...the Monk at least has a crossbow. What does the Warblade have innately?

Conversion of a swift action to a move action is great and all...but that's not going to catch a horse.

From?

So the situation is unfair unless it's tailor made to allow the Warblade to triumph?

Talya: The Warblade needs to pump int and str, there's no way he's also pumping con and dex too.

JaronK:

So really, it's not the Warblade that makes an Archer, it's the Fighter.

I believe the point is that a single low-level character of ANY class proceeding alone through the bottom of a ravine is vulnerable. Including Druids. A situation can be described where ANY class of ANY level can be defeated (you should consider AMF as a start on building such situations for the Tier 1 classes). Being able to describe ONE such scenario, then, does not really help us decide what Tier a class belong in.

"You are teleported (no save) into an anti-magic field. A swordsage of your level dual-wielding poisoned kukris attacks with surprise. The poison attacks your Dexterity. The AMF is surrounded by a force cage".

Warblade may win. Druid will probably die. Wizard will never know what hit them. Therefore, Warblades are Tier 1, and Wizards are clearly Tier 4 at best.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 01:16 PM

Actually, when you're being charmed/dominated, nothing is keeping you from releasing yourself most of the time. Charm just makes you friendly, and has nothing to do with the actions you take. Unless you're supposed to be holding still, IHS is a valid option to activate in a fight versus your allies ("I am buffing myself."), so it's a good way to get out of that, as well.

Equinox

2013-10-29, 01:16 PM

My favorite trick is IHS and mad foam rager to delay and get rid of the effect.And even that doesn't work by strict RAW

As an immediate action, you can choose to delay the effect of a single attack, spell, or ability used against you.

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you

If you "delay its effect" then it's not "currently affecting you".
By the time it's "affecting you" it's usually too late to IHS.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 01:16 PM

So really, it's not the Warblade that makes an Archer, it's the Fighter.

No, a Fighter 2/Warblade 18 isn't getting the majority of his abilities from Fighter. That's just a convenient way to get the proficiencies. I could replace that Targeteer dip with something else if I really wanted (for example, Ranger 2 with two flaws would give me more skill points and more feats).

The main power from this build comes from Warblade abilities like Blood in the Water, Raging Mongoose, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, etc. You can't do this build without Warblade. Fighter's just convenient.

And by the way, your last built archer Fighter couldn't even fight in a dungeon, or at close range, and required months of prep time before the first encounter just to be functional. Don't criticize a Warblade 1 for not being able to handle a CR 4 challenge at level 1 solo when the majority of scenarios would leave Fighters you build unable to even function.

JaronK

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 01:16 PM

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 01:18 PM

You can actually IHS an AMF. >:3

Or throw yourself into a wall of fire. "IRON HEART SURGE," and then it's gone.

Pickford

2013-10-29, 01:19 PM

I believe the point is that a single low-level character of ANY class proceeding alone through the bottom of a ravine is vulnerable. Including Druids. A situation can be described where ANY class of ANY level can be defeated (you should consider AMF as a start on building such situations for the Tier 1 classes). Being able to describe ONE such scenario, then, does not really help us decide what Tier a class belong in.

"You are teleported (no save) into an anti-magic field. A swordsage of your level dual-wielding poisoned kukris attacks with surprise. The poison attacks your Dexterity. The AMF is surrounded by a force cage".

Warblade may win. Druid will probably die. Wizard will never know what hit them. Therefore, Warblades are Tier 1, and Wizards are clearly Tier 4 at best.

This would be more like: You step on a trap in a room and the door slams shut, and AMF springs up, and another hidden door opens to reveal a clockwork enemy (swordsage).

Yeah, the Wizard is probably in trouble. That doesn't reduce their power in a vacuum, which is all the tier system seems to be good for, considering power of characters without considering any threats at all.

Shining Wrath

2013-10-29, 01:22 PM

Still ought to have it anyway.

Yeah, I'm aware that IHS isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as it's made out to be. And that anything that keeps you from acting can prevent it.

It's still fun, though. You can't say the name without smiling.

And by "say" I mean "bellow in a deep, powerful, manly voice."

I *learn* IHS. I don't usually *ready* IHS, because of Adaptive Style which all ToB classes should take around level 3 or 6. IHS is when something is going to persist but you can still act. Given the problem with having enough maneuvers readied, I take the risk that I'll have to burn one extra standard action to get rid of X persistent problem.

Talya

2013-10-29, 01:23 PM

eggynack

2013-10-29, 01:24 PM

Yeah, the Wizard is probably in trouble. That doesn't reduce their power in a vacuum, which is all the tier system seems to be good for, considering power of characters without considering any threats at all.
Actually, the problem is that you expand one threat to mean all threats. If you just start randomly naming encounters, threats, and adventures, the tier system will probably describe the degree to which a given character will find success with some accuracy. A druid can respond efficiently to a vast majority of situations, but there's always going to be some minority of encounters where he won't have a great solution. By contrast, a fighter will have a minority of encounters where he'll have a great solution, but won't be able to respond with the same effectiveness to the vast majority of threats. The warblade is somewhere in the middle. So, you say "ravine ambush." In that situation, the warblade is likely caught off guard. Then you name more situations, like fighting enemies in a deep mine, or leading an army, or dealing with a wizard who casts save or dies, and the warblade will do better than a lot of classes.

Shining Wrath

2013-10-29, 01:24 PM

This would be more like: You step on a trap in a room and the door slams shut, and AMF springs up, and another hidden door opens to reveal a clockwork enemy (swordsage).

Yeah, the Wizard is probably in trouble. That doesn't reduce their power in a vacuum, which is all the tier system seems to be good for, considering power of characters without considering any threats at all.

Which means, of course, that your "bottom of a ravine" example says NOTHING about whether or not Warblade is a good, useful class for someone wanting to play a non-casting class. Yet you have defended the utility of that example for several posts.

What exactly is your game? Because it doesn't seem to be anything about helping anyone enjoy the game of D&D, nor having fun with fellow gamers, nor displaying knowledge of the game.

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 01:30 PM

Actually, the problem is that you expand one threat to mean all threats. If you just start randomly naming encounters, threats, and adventures, the tier system will probably describe the degree to which a given character will find success with some accuracy. A druid can respond efficiently to a vast majority of situations, but there's always going to be some minority of encounters where he won't have a great solution. By contrast, a fighter will have a minority of encounters where he'll have a great solution, but won't be able to respond with the same effectiveness to the vast majority of threats. The warblade is somewhere in the middle. So, you say "ravine ambush." In that situation, the warblade is likely caught off guard. Then you name more situations, like fighting enemies in a deep mine, or leading an army, or dealing with a wizard who casts save or dies, and the warblade will do better than a lot of classes.

Something I've thought about doing was an "acid test" using books like Elder Evils, WoL, and some premade modules to come up with the encounters that would act as the measuring stick.

lsfreak

2013-10-29, 01:32 PM

Barring silly and half-humorous interpretations, IHS is a lot less useful than people tend to think. Stunned or nauseated? Can't end the stunning/dazed/nauseated conditions, because, well, can't take actions. Paralyzed? Petrified? "To initiate a maneuver you must be able to move", quoting ToB. Charmed or Dominated? Your new overlord commands you to obey him, so you can't even think of initiating IHS. Confused? Have to wait to get "act normally" on the percentile die before IHS can be initiated. Cowering? Can't take actions. Panicked? Can't take actions other than fleeing. Fascinated? Again, can't take actions.

[those are all examples of things I have seen players actually try to do with IHS. They were very surprised to learn that none of that works]

I IHS RAW.

To be fair, I think some of those should be able to be ended with IHS, but poor editing struck again. Cowering, panicked, and fascinated, it makes sense that it wouldn't occur to you to IHS it away. Paralyzed or stunned? Yea maybe that should work. Charmed is interesting because you could end it, but it might not cause any change - I'm of the view that charming someone has real, lasting effects on how you view them, not something that ends with the spell. Longer-term (i.e. not middle-of-the-battle commands to tilt things in your favor) versions of Suggestion and Dominate might allow it as well: "go about your daily routine, but when X happens, do Y" could allow it if the person is made aware of the condition during the daily routine part of it. I could even see a properly-paranoid warblade making it a regular occurrence, say three times per day plus after every encounter, spending 30 seconds to IHS/refresh/repeat against the major compulsions just to make sure they weren't affected.

Talya

2013-10-29, 01:35 PM

I don't see pickford's posts until someone quotes them. Then my curiosity overrules my common sense.

Why is he using a horse here as some proof against a warblade? Nothing prevents a warblade from riding a horse. Ride checks are simple, they can be made untrained, and the warblade, having greater than twice as many skill ranks as the fighter, can, if they choose, keep the ride skill capped cross-class. Then the warblade's higher dexterity will compensate for some of the difference if it really matters, too.

The horse is not a fighter class feature. Any character can have one.

Not that the warblade needs the horse in this yet again contrived irrelevant PVP scenario.

Options for the warblade:
(1) Kill the horse at range in a single round.
(2) Kill the fighter at range because the warblade is a better archer than the fighter.
(3) Move about 90 feet+ using various available methods and still take a full attack action to kill the horse
(4) Move about 90 feet+, ignore the horse, and take one of several actions against the fighter that dismount him from the horse and/or kill him outright.
(5) Teleport next to the fighter and do the same thing.

I've barely gotten started. These are all innate options for the warblade.

Elderand

2013-10-29, 01:39 PM

Big Fau

2013-10-29, 01:40 PM

JaronK

2013-10-29, 01:44 PM

Pickford's claiming Warblades are bad because they lack range, and thus if a bunch of bandits ambushed a low level Warblade from the top of a ravine by shooting arrows at him he'd be in serious trouble.

Pickford has of course failed to notice that due to cover the position of the bandits is extremely good, and that his Fighter would die just as easily... and that the horse he likes to use would be dead in the first volley, leaving a slow moving Fighter in a terrible position.

He also thinks archery kiting on horseback is a solid technique for a character to invest in, not realizing that most encounters tend to occur in confined spaces (see: every module released ever) and that horses are only viable at low levels due to the aforementioned "getting killed" issue.

He also thinks that because I suggested Targeteer Fighter 2/Warblade 18 as an archer, it's the Fighter part of that build that makes it a good archer. Though I think in reality I might go with Ranger 2/Targeteer 2/Warblade 16. The skills are nice, and the spot boost is really helpful (though Pickford still doesn't understand the spot rules).

JaronK

Talya

2013-10-29, 01:48 PM

5 is the only thing the class can't do innately, not that it would be impossible to get before 10th level (Lesser Dragonmark gets DD 1/day IIRC, and there are a handful of items in the MIC that are dirt cheap teleportation tools).

Martial Study works very well on full initiator classes. Those Shadow Hand teleports are only a feat away (they have no prerequisites).

JaronK - the warblade doesn't need to multiclass to be a better archer than the fighter. Yes, they can become a better archer if they do multiclass, but single class Warblade 20 is a better archer than single class Fighter 20.

Draz74

2013-10-29, 01:49 PM

1) The Warblade can only use melee thrown weapons, but no ranged weapon. They're actually worse than a Monk at ranged combat (!)
Nah. Even without using any of the maneuvers that are useful in ranged combat, at least they have full BAB -- at high levels, that makes up for nonproficiency all by itself compared to the Monk. :smalltongue:

2) The Warblade has more skill points than a Fighter...but doesn't have Handle Animal or Ride as a class skill. (Something Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins can lay claim to, even a Commoner has Ride(!))
This was a flavor choice on the part of the writers. They felt Warblades were too independent-minded to focus on mounted combat.

And of course, as others have stated, Warblades don't really need mounted combat. They have other ways to gain great mobility, and even to add massive damage to their Charges.

The loss of the option to ride flying mount (rather than buying a magic item that allows flight, or being a Dragonborn or Raptoran) would be painful ... if flying mounts weren't dangerously vulnerable to getting shot and killed out from under Fighters and Barbarians anyway. :smalltongue:

For example, imagine the Warblade is in a ravine, when lo and behold, bandits rise up on the ridges and demand his stuff or his life, pointing bows at him.
OK, let's go with that. And let's assume that this is low-level, so the Warblade doesn't have flight somehow. (But not Level 1; most classes would be rather helpless in this situation at Level 1.)

The Warblade has about the best Jumping ability in the game (an actual reason to max Jump ranks, plus the Leaping Dragon Stance that adds an effective +40 to vertical Jump checks with a running start. If the ravine is still too high for him, at least he has Climb as a class skill too.

Or he can cow all of the bandits into terror with a Never Outnumbered Imperious Command.

Or he can use defensive maneuvers to boost his AC while he uses javelins, or even longbows with a -4 penalty (or greatbows with no penalty, if he was prepared with a Weapon Aptitude EWP) to fight back. Nonproficiency isn't the end of the world.

Or he can Mountain Hammer the side of the ravine and take full cover in the cave he hollowed out for himself. This is probably my favorite solution; it's distinctive from most other classes, and it's one I'm extremely likely to actually have available if I play a Warblade. (A given Warblade may or may not have Leaping Dragon Stance or EWP (greatbow), but he'll probably learn Mountain Hammer, and will probably have it readied whether or not he's expecting combat.) It's a wee bit better than your Tower Shield example "solution," wouldn't you say?

Your examples in this ravine ambush situation show a big double standard. You're quick to come up with creative solutions or exaggerate the power of certain abilities (Entropic Warding) for classes you like, but you neglect any semblance of creativity when you declare the Warblade to be helpless.

The Mountain Hammer line won't let you sunder items that are attended, so it's still inferior to just using an Adamantine weapon.
[Citation Needed]

The Warblade has all of '1' abilities at level 1 that might translate into non-combat utility (Hunter's Sense)
Hmmm, that's nearly true. I'd add Bolstering Voice to the list, but yes, as a dedicated warrior class, the Warblade has very little non-combat utility at Level 1.

whereas the Warlock has 11 (of 17) options for a non-combat utility invocation, including one that both negates scent, leaves no trail, 'and' deflects all ranged attacks at 1st level. That's 3 abilities in one (each of which on its own would be more useful).
Yep. No one is arguing with the idea that the Warlock is less combat-focused than the Warblade.

But whatever the Warlock picks at Level 1, he'll miss the other choices he wasn't able to make. Warblades at least get to choose 4 abilities instead of 1.

Did I mention the Warlock is, if they want, always going to be a better diplomancer than the Warblade? (Beguiling Influence alone is an extra 18 skill point towards the social skills)

Hmmm, yes, the Warlock can be a better party face if they focus on it.

But if neither character really focuses on it ... the Warblade is likely to end up a better diplomat than the Warlock, just because it's one of his best choices for skill points, while the Warlock gets a terribly small amount of skill points and has a bunch of other skills he needs to spend them on. (And spending one of his precious few Invocations on Beguiling Influence is a big commitment.)

lsfreak

2013-10-29, 01:50 PM

5 is the only thing the class can't do innately, not that it would be impossible to get before 10th level (Lesser Dragonmark gets DD 1/day IIRC, and there are a handful of items in the MIC that are dirt cheap teleportation tools).

I believe you're both kinda half-right. I think she was referring to grabbing one of the Shadow Hand teleports, which is a feat and not a class feature. But on a warblade it's using the far-superior warblade refresh mechanic.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 03:09 PM

JaronK - the warblade doesn't need to multiclass to be a better archer than the fighter. Yes, they can become a better archer if they do multiclass, but single class Warblade 20 is a better archer than single class Fighter 20.

I don't want to be an elf, Bracers of Archery are better if you have the proficiency, and honestly there are some very good archery feats. It's worthwhile. Besides, the Fighter would be a better archer if you're pure classing it during the low levels.

It's definitely worth the dip.

JaronK

Talya

2013-10-29, 03:11 PM

I don't want to be an elf, Bracers of Archery are better if you have the proficiency, and honestly there are some very good archery feats. It's worthwhile. Besides, the Fighter would be a better archer if you're pure classing it during the low levels.

It's definitely worth the dip.

JaronK

Sure, like i said, the dip can make you better. However, Weapon Proficiencies are a feat. (With a warblade, they are even an adaptable feat.)

Scow2

2013-10-29, 03:42 PM

Frankly, I'd prefer a Barbarian dip than Fighter dip. Sure, you lose out of a feat, but you keep the skill points and hit die, while also getting all the weapon proficiencies and a speed/jump bonus to boot!

In Pickford's example, a level 2 Warblade 1/Barbarian 1 (Level 2 against a CR 4 encounter) would jump and climb to the top/other side of the ravine where the bandits are (as part of a charge), probably getting another +10 ft move if he has either as a skill trick, kill one bandit, tank a few whiffs from the rest (They can't bring their bows to bear without suffering the -4 shooting-into-melee penalty), then go to town in melee as normal.

Or, if running was mandatory, he can Run 80-120', then Jump the rest of the way as a swift action (If he has Mighty Leaper, he can jump twice - during the run and then as a swift. Bunny hopping does work!) into cover.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 04:01 PM

Targeteer Fighter is a lot better though for this... while that variant doesn't have enough available bonus feats to be a good archer in the long run, a two level dip gives you Dex to damage with crossbows and the ability to make two extra attacks on a full attack (but everything's at -5 to hit). So, Ranger 2/Targeteer Fighter 2/Warblade 16 is really pretty awesome. You can end up with 2.5*Dex to damage with crossbows when the target is within 60' and not crit immune.

JaronK

Wings of Peace

2013-10-29, 04:25 PM

OK, I'm curious what trick you're using to get that.

I don't actually know Tippy's trick but if I had to guess I would say he's using a method that allows him to take the epic warlock feat Shadowmaster (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) pre-epic and then somehow using the shade conjurations to mimic lower level wiz/sorc spells.

Chronos

2013-10-29, 05:03 PM

The thing about Iron Heart Surge is that, while it doesn't work on most of the things it really probably should work on, it also does work on a lot of things it really shouldn't, and when it works, it works in ways that make no sense. OK, so you can Surge your way out of a Web spell, that's fine... But that frees everyone else in it, too? How?

And by RAW, an orc warblade really can extinguish the Sun. Yes, that's stupid, and yes, every DM everywhere is going to houserule against it. But if they're houseruling that, then they can also houserule that it works for extreme fear or nausea or paralysis.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 05:19 PM

Dazzled/Blind is an effect, the Sun is not. :smallannoyed:

eggynack

2013-10-29, 05:27 PM

Dazzled/Blind is an effect, the Sun is not. :smallannoyed:
You miss the point. The Sun isn't, in and of itself, an effect. However, the sun does impose upon you the condition of being in the Sun. Thus, you are able to remove the source of that condition, which in this case is the Sun. Such is the nature of iron heart surge.

Icewraith

2013-10-29, 05:28 PM

The Sun is the source of the effect.

Edit: Warbladed (seems more appropriate for this thread)

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 06:51 PM

You miss the point. The Sun isn't, in and of itself, an effect. However, the sun does impose upon you the condition of being in the Sun. Thus, you are able to remove the source of that condition, which in this case is the Sun. Such is the nature of iron heart surge.

It says nothing about the source of the effect.

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds.

The sun is a condition? Wrong, condition is a defined term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), like being dazzled.
The sun is an effect? Wrong, effects overlap with conditions.
The sun is a spell? Wrong, the sun is not an effect, all spells are effect, so it can not be a spell.

It's also debatable that the Sun is dazzling the Orcs. The Orcs obviously have an ability that dazzles them, who is to say it's orcs that dazzle orcs and not the sun?

Even if you are saying being in the sun is an effect, it would just relieve the effect "is in the sun," placing you outside it.

Scow2

2013-10-29, 06:56 PM

So... instead of putting out the sun when you IHS, it puts out your eyes?

Elderand

2013-10-29, 06:58 PM

It says nothing about the source of the effect.

The sun is a condition? Wrong, condition is a defined term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), like being dazzled.
The sun is an effect? Wrong, effects overlap with conditions.
The sun is a spell? Wrong, the sun is not an effect, all spells are effect, so it can not be a spell.

It's also debatable that the Sun is dazzling the Orcs. The Orcs obviously have an ability that dazzles them, who is to say it's orcs that dazzle orcs and not the sun?

Even if you are saying being in the sun is an effect, it would just relieve the effect "is in the sun," placing you outside it.

Well....there you have it then, warblade can teleport. They just have to iron surge themselves out. Think about the possibilities !

You just need to define "not being next to the BBEG at the exact moment were my sword could slay him" to be an effect and then you can Iron surge yourself out of time and space until you can murder the bad guy.

Scow2

2013-10-29, 06:59 PM

...how do we know the Sun isn't actually a spell? It might be a permanent one with a way-too-high caster level created by a diety.

...The sun is nothing more than an excessively enlarged and empowered and otherwise souped up spell from the Light family. :smalleek:

eggynack

2013-10-29, 07:00 PM

The sun is a condition? Wrong, condition is a defined term (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), like being dazzled.
This is where you are mistaken. Nowhere in that text is the term condition strictly defined, and if you check back to the source in the actual books, that should be even more clear.

Even if you are saying being in the sun is an effect, it would just relieve the effect "is in the sun," placing you outside it.
No, the condition that is being removed is the sunlight. IHS'ing a web doesn't teleport you outside of a web, and neither does IHS'ing the sunlight teleport you to a distant galaxy. You end the thing affecting you. You do not leave the effect.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 07:03 PM

Exucse me, but even if you do not consider it defined, do you see "The Sun" anywhere in that list?

Well....there you have it then, warblade can teleport. They just have to iron surge themselves out. Think about the possibilities !

You just need to define "not being next to the BBEG at the exact moment were my sword could slay him" to be an effect and then you can Iron surge yourself out of time and space until you can murder the bad guy.
Well, hypothetically. A location isn't really an effect. :s

IHS is pretty good once you realize you can repair your own ability damage with it, though.

...how do we know the Sun isn't actually a spell? It might be a permanent one with a way-too-high caster level created by a diety.

...The sun is nothing more than an excessively enlarged and empowered and otherwise souped up spell from the Light family. :smalleek:

Then you're causing problems. However, light spells tend to lack certain properties the sun has. It'd have to be a very powerful one to burn undead, which would harm the living... on the other hand, if it's not an actual sun, plants and stuff might still grow when it's gone. The secret is that we never needed it in the first place. :smalltongue:

Elderand

2013-10-29, 07:09 PM

Well, hypothetically. A location isn't really an effect. :s
I was being facetious.

I think the real problem with IHS is that it was effectively written for another game altogether. It is far too openended (open ended ?) in the way it is written for a game like DnD that has an obsession with defining things precisely (however poorly it does the job).

It would fit far better in a system that explicitly rely a lot more on DM (or equivalent) interpretation.

eggynack

2013-10-29, 07:11 PM

Exucse me, but even if you do not consider it defined, do you see "The Sun" anywhere in that list?

Neither that list, nor the paragraph before it, explicitly defines the limits of what a "condition" is. If it just said, "Here is a list of all conditions," or even, "Here is a list of the conditions," or double even, "Conditions," that'd be fine. Instead, it says, "This section describes the adverse conditions that weaken, slow, or even kill characters." That fully leaves the door open for conditions of all other types, whether they be beneficial conditions, or value neutral conditions, or even adverse conditions that don't weaken, slow, or kill somehow. That's the point, ultimately. There is absolutely no definition for condition, even in the condition summary section.

137beth

2013-10-29, 07:13 PM

The Sun is the source of the effect.

Edit: Warbladed (seems more appropriate for this thread)

More appropriate to say
"EDIT: Iron Heart Surged"...
Since, ya know, Eggynack must have used IHS to end the condition "did not post before Icewraith":smalltongue:

Elderand

2013-10-29, 07:16 PM

Neither that list, nor the paragraph before it, explicitly defines the limits of what a "condition" is. If it just said, "Here is a list of all conditions," or even, "Here is a list of the conditions," or double even, "Conditions," that'd be fine. Instead, it says, "This section describes the adverse conditions that weaken, slow, or even kill characters." That fully leaves the door open for conditions of all other types, whether they be beneficial conditions, or value neutral conditions, or even adverse conditions that don't weaken, slow, or kill somehow. That's the point, ultimately. There is absolutely no definition for condition, even in the condition summary section.

Compare and contrast conditions from M&M 3rd ed:
This section describes the different conditions that can affect characters in mutants and masterminds.

I find it amusing that a game that's on the whole far less concerned with defining everything and leaving a whole lot more up to the individual DM still manage to be clearer and more definite on this subject than DnD is.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 07:18 PM

Neither that list, nor the paragraph before it, explicitly defines the limits of what a "condition" is. If it just said, "Here is a list of all conditions," or even, "Here is a list of the conditions," or double even, "Conditions," that'd be fine. Instead, it says, "This section describes the adverse conditions that weaken, slow, or even kill characters." That fully leaves the door open for conditions of all other types, whether they be beneficial conditions, or value neutral conditions, or even adverse conditions that don't weaken, slow, or kill somehow. That's the point, ultimately. There is absolutely no definition for condition, even in the condition summary section. Do you see the Sun in the condition summary? I do not see? In fact, all we know about the sun is that it makes you dehydrated if it raises the temperature band. You can fix being dehydrated from removing that condition from yourself. Do you have the rule for this? Can you quote it? Source, page number, paragraph, line format, please. It seems to me you are making up something to put in the list, because nothing else is lumped under condition. That doesn't hold up under RAW if it's not written down. At all.

Scow2

2013-10-29, 07:23 PM

Compare and contrast conditions from M&M 3rd ed:
This section describes the different conditions that can affect characters in mutants and masterminds.

I find it amusing that a game that's on the whole far less concerned with defining everything and leaving a whole lot more up to the individual DM still manage to be clearer and more definite on this subject than DnD is.The big reason for this is that 3.5's underlying principals changed halfway through its life, starting off extremely informal and causal in tone, then realizing it was causing problems and started taking a more codified, formalized approach.

M&M started clear and formalized.

Do you see the Sun in the condition summary? I do not see? In fact, all we know about the sun is that it makes you dehydrated if it raises the temperature band. You can fix being dehydrated from removing that condition from yourself. Do you have the rule for this? Can you quote it? Source, page number, paragraph, line format, please. It seems to me you are making up something to put in the list, because nothing else is lumped under condition. That doesn't hold up under RAW if it's not written down. At all.The condition summary is informal, and not an exhaustive list of all effects and conditions. Sunlight effects ARE a condition/effect when they start affecting someone.

eggynack

2013-10-29, 07:25 PM

Do you see the Sun in the condition summary? I do not see? In fact, all we know about the sun is that it makes you dehydrated if it raises the temperature band. You can fix being dehydrated from removing that condition from yourself. Do you have the rule for this? Can you quote it? Source, page number, paragraph, line format, please.
I do not understand. What are you talking about? None of this stuff actually has to be written down, because it's not being written down that is the problem. If you can cite for me the actual rules for what a condition is, I'd be more than happy to hear it. However, this rules issue has a source, and that source will drive your quest to failure. What a condition is is never written down. Not there, and not anywhere. The sunlight doesn't need to impose some sort of numbers or other rule effect on you. Just by existing, and you existing in it, you intrinsically have the condition of being in the sunlight, and can therefore shut it down.

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 07:34 PM

I do not understand. What are you talking about? None of this stuff actually has to be written down, because it's not being written down that is the problem. If you can cite for me the actual rules for what a condition is, I'd be more than happy to hear it. However, this rules issue has a source, and that source will drive your quest to failure. What a condition is is never written down. Not there, and not anywhere. The sunlight doesn't need to impose some sort of numbers or other rule effect on you. Just by existing, and you existing in it, you intrinsically have the condition of being in the sunlight, and can therefore shut it down.

Well, it has to be written in the book to happen. It's not RAW, and without a RAW basis, there is not a consensus on how it would work or what would happen. It's just "he said, she said" at this point, and therefore entirely pointless. I have list of conditions. The sun is not one of them. Being in the sun isn't here either. How do I know it's a condition? How do I know the sun being shut down, rather than the person just being moved?

You are the one who presented the statement "The Sun shuts down with an IHS," but with 0 evidence present, you have failed your duty to prove your argument.

Firechanter

2013-10-29, 07:36 PM

The point is what has been said a bit further up: IHS as written does things it shouldn't do, and fails to do things it should do. So, the most sensible solution is to fix it. I have settled on using Saph's fix, which basically says "You can remove any Status on you, and you can do it even when you normally cannot take actions." That is _exactly_ the By Crom! display of indomitable stubbornness* that the fluff description of the maneuver invokes.

On another note, I gotta say I do find it a bit annoying that Warblades start out with no Ranged weapons (except Thrown). I mean okay, I usually carry a handful of Javelins, but seriously, does anyone really think it's _necessary_ to deny them the use of a Longbow without jumping hoops?

Back to the core question of the Warblade's tier placement, I repeat what I said early in the thread: not all combat is the same. No matter how a Fighter, Barb or Ranger is skilled, they will usually be good at only one shtick, and if you deny them this shtick you have shut them down. Hence, they are T4 or worse.
A Warblade on the other hand has a lot more in-combat options, and to shut them down you have to deny each of these separately, which isn't even (plausibly) possible most of the time. They are both awesome Strikers _and_ good Leaders, filling two roles simultaneously, in a way that's superior to most dedicated Strikers and many Leaders in their sole area of expertise.
[For example -- gotta say I don't have any experience with the Marshal, but I remember reading on this board that a White Raven Warblade is out of the box a better Leader than the Marshal.]

*) does that word really have three double letters?

Icewraith

2013-10-29, 07:39 PM

Well, if you IHS a light spell that is dazzling you, the spell ends, right? I think that's the logic here.

If it were possible to be dazzled by a nonmagical light source, if you IHS the light source it would in theory end as well. Now we're just talking about scale and distance issues.

For instance, if IHS does immediately end the Sun, we can start killing catgirls with the relativity implications.

eggynack

2013-10-29, 07:43 PM

Well, it has to be written in the book to happen. It's not RAW, and without a RAW basis, there is not a consensus on how it would work or what would happen. It's just "he said, she said" at this point, and therefore entirely pointless. I have list of conditions. The sun is not one of them. Being in the sun isn't here either. How do I know it's a condition? How do I know the sun being shut down, rather than the person just being moved?

You are the one who presented the statement "The Sun shuts down with an IHS," but with 0 evidence present, you have failed your duty to prove your argument.
It would be a "he said, she said" situation, except without a RAW basis, we are forced to default to the ever wonderful and never problematic standard English definitions of words. In this case, the primary definition, and the most apparently pertinent one, is "a particular mode of being of a person or thing." In this case, the mode of being is that you're in the sun. As for what happens, that's made clear by the text of Iron Heart Surge itself. You don't leave the effect. The effect ends.

Scow2

2013-10-29, 07:46 PM

Snowbluff

2013-10-29, 07:47 PM

This section lists adverse conditions a creature might be subjected to.

Might, as in may, as in has the ability or permission to. These are the conditions with the ability to affect a creature.

Either way, there is nothing written about the sun, Eggynack. I have not been convinced what you have a rule.

Well, if you IHS a light spell that is dazzling you, the spell ends, right? I think that's the logic here. The spell ends, under the rules of it being a spell. The maneuver covers spells. You select the spell that is affecting you, and you cancel it out.

If it were possible to be dazzled by a nonmagical light source, if you IHS the light source it would in theory end as well. Now we're just talking about scale and distance issues. Non seqitir. Dazzled is a condition (by virtue of being under the Condition Summary/Condtions in RC), and can be removed as a condition... and you'll be dazzled right away.

Also, it's your Light Sensivity ability that is dazzling you, not the light source.:smalltongue:

For instance, if IHS does immediately end the Sun, we can start killing catgirls with the relativity implications.
Yeah, it'd be weird.

eggynack

2013-10-29, 07:50 PM

The sun is an object, though... What most likely ends is either Daylight Sensitivity/Vulnerability/What Have You (Until you're in the sun again), or it suppresses the Daylight. I guess in that sense, it can 'put out' the sun.
I think turning off the light is the primary goal here, especially because I don't even know what that means. In particular, I'm not talking about doing this with some sort of sensitivity or vulnerability. It's just your standard, everyday, unimposing sunlight, which I am ending.

georgie_leech

2013-10-29, 07:52 PM

It would be a "he said, she said" situation, except without a RAW basis, we are forced to default to the ever wonderful and never problematic standard English definitions of words. In this case, the primary definition, and the most apparently pertinent one, is "a particular mode of being of a person or thing." In this case, the mode of being is that you're in the sun. As for what happens, that's made clear by the text of Iron Heart Surge itself. You don't leave the effect. The effect ends.

That's the bone of contention right there. Broadly speaking, an effect ends if you are no longer being affected by the source of the effect. An obvious method is to remove the source of the effect, sure, but it could also be done by causing yourself to no longer be a valid target for the effect. In the case of the sun example, you could end the effect of "being in the sun's light" by:

Make the sun no longer exist. This is the one everyone jumps to.
Move to some place shady.
Spontaneously generate shade such that you and only you are no longer in the sun.
Get a little immunity tag saying the sun doesn't affect you. It's D&D, immunities don't have to make sense.

I imagine there are further possibilities, but those are all valid interpretations. In this case, it is kind of difficult to say which one is the correct interpretation, because they all have unintended side effects.

About the only thing that can be agreed upon is that IHS really needs better wording, at least if it wants to be taken seriously in a rules-heavy game like D&D.

TuggyNE

2013-10-29, 07:54 PM

One thing I find amusing about IHSing the sun is that it might take a while for the results of turning off the sun to appear, given any finite speed of light. So either IHS preemptively turns off the sun let's say eight minutes before use, or else light has an infinite speed, or else (worst yet) IHS kills all the light between the user and the sun as well as killing the sun.

*) does that word really have three double letters?

Yes. Someone IHS'd "stubornes doesn't have enough double letters" and the result is as you see.

Scow2

2013-10-29, 07:55 PM

That's the bone of contention right there. Broadly speaking, an effect ends if you are no longer being affected by the source of the effect. An obvious method is to remove the source of the effect, sure, but it could also be done by causing yourself to no longer be a valid target for the effect. In the case of the sun example, you could end the effect of "being in the sun's light" by:

Make the sun no longer exist. This is the one everyone jumps to.
Move to some place shady.
Spontaneously generate shade such that you and only you are no longer in the sun.
Get a little immunity tag saying the sun doesn't affect you. It's D&D, immunities don't have to make sense.

I imagine there are further possibilities, but those are all valid interpretations. In this case, it is kind of difficult to say which one is the correct interpretation, because they all have unintended side effects.

About the only thing that can be agreed upon is that IHS really needs better wording, at least if it wants to be taken seriously in a rules-heavy game like D&D.Well, the Sun still exists. It just no longer produces sunlight. Of course, there's nothing stopping it from re-starting making sunlight again as an immediate(Meaning not on its turn) free(Meaning not restricted by the one-immediate-action-per-round) action.

... people aren't actually blinking. It's just the sun being IHS'd off and restarting immediately.

JaronK

2013-10-29, 07:57 PM

Actually, morning and night in that world happens because of IHS. At dusk, an Orc Warblade goes "Hey, I'm dazzled... IHS!" At Dawn, that's when an elf Warblade goes "I'm cold... IHS!"

JaronK

Pickford

2013-10-29, 11:34 PM

Big_Fau:

There are still plenty of other maneuvers, and one wrong one doesn't invalidate the entire list.

I picked those three based on the little * indicating they were supposed to work specifically with ranged weapons. 1 Didn't, 1 Did, and 1 didn't care what the weapon was. And that was the three that are supposed to work. If those don't, I have no basis on which to believe the others listed are valid.

So now the bandits are on horses? The Warblade does have thrown weapons, and I'm AFB so I can't check which ones have what ranges.

Well, the horses is really meant to be a distinct example of a fight the Warblade would have serious trouble with.

I know about the thrown weapons, but those are much weaker. All thrown weapons max out at 5 range increments (i.e. 100' for the spearlike, 50' for anything else) with a -20 to hit that far out. Sure, the Warblade could pick up Point Blank Shot and Far Shot...but that's 2 feats, and he's still only going out to 75' or 150' max (Which is less than or barely more than a single range increment from a ranged weapon).

The horses are illustrative. If the horse alone screws the Warblade, that's kind of a big deal. There are plenty of other mounts in the MM that provide even more perverse an advantage (Pegasus, for example, means the rider can simply hover at an altitude of 155' and never be hit by the Warblade).

You need to calculate the CR of the encounter. A group of 6 or 7 Human Warrior 1s all armed with ranged weapons sitting on top of a ridge is going to be around a CR 4, possibly even CR 5. A low-level Warblade is only going to survive on luck, but so is a majority of the other classes in this game due to sheer firepower and terrain disadvantage.

A fair point, which I'll try to rectify here, remember though, I never specified the level, just the concept. Why not 4 CR 1/4 kobolds banditos? The Kobolds would seem to have the advantage of range (up to 50', which is beyond the charge range of the Warblade in medium armor)

There's also the fact that it is an utterly stupid scenario to begin with (seriously, what the hell kind of high-Int character like a Warblade wanders through a ravine solo?). Ambushes do happen, but not by sheer stupidity. The Warblade likely has a positive Int modifier, and is capable of seeing just how risky that endeavor would be.

1) That's not a fact, that's your opinion, try to differentiate. 2) The shortest route isn't always the safest route, and sometimes, just sometimes, time is a factor.

For example: Your ward is incredibly ill and you need the services of a Cleric. Unfortunately, the nearest one is in the town of Whyareyoumakingmeworthisoutforyou. You have two paths available to reach your destination. The quick way, one days travel, goes through this ravine, but there are reports of bandits about. There is a safer way, but it takes considerably more time faffing about in the wilderness, requiring two weeks journey to circle around. Oh, by the way, your ward who, need I remind you, is incredibly ill, may die in as little as 4 days time. (Doesn't seem like you have any choice at all now does it?)

Being ambushed in a town alley is a far more likely scenario, and in that case there would be easy cover nearby and several ways out (notably, Mountain Hammering a wall).

You were the one who assumed a level 1 encounter. Guess what you can't do at level 1. (Hint: It begins with Mountain and ends with Hammer).

The feats and maneuvers are what made the Warblade an archer.

Yeah, all those 'valid' maneuvers.

Talya:

Options for the warblade:

None of these are options for a Warblade. Hey, I bet you could use a swift action to double move though right?

Your later assertion:

JaronK - the warblade doesn't need to multiclass to be a better archer than the fighter. Yes, they can become a better archer if they do multiclass, but single class Warblade 20 is a better archer than single class Fighter 20.

Is factually challenged. Warblades get all of 7 feats for their character levels, Fighters get 18. There are, in core alone, 9 feats that go for ranged attack enhancements, and 5 weapon specific improving feats that apply to ranged weapons. That's 14, double what the Warblade can access. The Warblade will never be as capable at ranged combat as a Fighter.

Draz74:

at least they have full BAB -- at high levels, that makes up for nonproficiency

But not for the lack of range. Even if they go full range increments on a thrown weapon (-20 to hit!) they're only going to be able to go out to say, 50'. Less than a Crossbow, from the Monk. That's worse both qualitatively and quantitatively.

They have other ways to gain great mobility, and even to add massive damage to their Charges.

A charge is all of 60', 40' if the character has a medium load. That's nothing, a horse riding archer can move up to 120' and still shoot a further 165' without breaking a sweat.

[Citation Needed]

See: Mountain Hammer and Elder Mountain Hammer, Bo9S.

eggynack:

No, the condition that is being removed is the sunlight. IHS'ing a web doesn't teleport you outside of a web, and neither does IHS'ing the sunlight teleport you to a distant galaxy. You end the thing affecting you. You do not leave the effect.

Why wouldn't IHS just end the Dazzle condition/effect and then the Sun immediately re-applies it? Given that that is an equally valid reading of the ability, I don't think you can assert that IHS can turn off the sun as you have yet to disprove the alternative hypothesis.

Snowbluff:

Do you see the Sun in the condition summary? I do not see? In fact, all we know about the sun is that it makes you dehydrated if it raises the temperature band. You can fix being dehydrated from removing that condition from yourself. Do you have the rule for this? Can you quote it? Source, page number, paragraph, line format, please. It seems to me you are making up something to put in the list, because nothing else is lumped under condition. That doesn't hold up under RAW if it's not written down. At all.

I second this.

Scow2:

Sunlight effects ARE a condition/effect when they start affecting someone.

Where are you getting that sunlight is an effect? The way this is being used Sunlight is a cause, and something negative happening to a character is the effect. At best you can remove the negative condition caused by the Sunlight, but never the Sunlight.

Similarly, if you are Shaken by a fear aura, assuming there is a duration in rounds, you can remove the Shaken condition from yourself (the effect), but you are incapable of removing the cause (the aura).

Icewraith:

Well, if you IHS a light spell that is dazzling you, the spell ends, right? I think that's the logic here.

This seems to be the common misinterpretation. However, among other things, the Sun does not have a duration in rounds. So if nothing else, that saves the Sun from any misanthropic IHSers who would seek to put the rest of us in eternal darkness.

JaronK:

Pickford's claiming Warblades are bad because they lack range, and thus if a bunch of bandits ambushed a low level Warblade from the top of a ravine by shooting arrows at him he'd be in serious trouble.

I made no claim about the level of the Warblade at all.

I did say this:
For example, imagine the Warblade is in a ravine, when lo and behold, bandits rise up on the ridges and demand his stuff or his life, pointing bows at him. Basically, he's screwed. Where apparently every other class has an option (ride away/fly/use that tower shield for full cover/hide/shoot back) the Warblade's option is: Become a human pincussion and die, sad and alone. No hope.

Scow2

2013-10-30, 12:00 AM

Yay! Pickford's back!

And here's the crux of your argument:
None of these are options for a Warblade. Hey, I bet you could use a swift action to double move though right?You can do better than that as a swift action as a Warblade.

A warblade in a ravine has excellent upward mobility to get to the annoying bandits on the top.

Against a horse-archer, the warblade just lays down, takes a nap, and enjoys a few drinks while the archer's arrows whiz harmlessly around him, and occasionally giggles if one of the arrows manages to tickle him until his assailant is out of ammunition and has to cry himself to sleep. If his foe tries to move slow enough to NOT eat the horrendous penalty to attack rolls, he eats the Warblade's running-leap-distance-then-charge. Or a short range teleports through Shadow Hand martial study maneuvers and hauls the guy off his horse. Against a pegasus rider, he kills the darn horse by using his wealth-acquired Flight item, and laughs as the attacker (Who was suffering stupidly large penalties to attack because 3.5 hates archers and mounted characters) plummets to his death. Against a horse-charger, he parries the charge attack (Wall of Blades, I think it's called?), then brutally counterattacks.

And, on the "Mounted Combat" thing... Just give the Warblade (With a +2 Dex modifier at least) a Military Saddle, and he can fight from horseback just fine. The ride skill is 90% useless unless you're trying to be fancy with it.

Draz74

2013-10-30, 12:04 AM

IMO, the sun's strongest defense against Iron Heart Surge is the "duration of 1 or more rounds" clause. Just because the sun will burn out in 6 billion years or so (assuming a fantasy world's sun works similarly to ours, which is a poor assumption), that still doesn't qualify as a "duration" (in game terms), in my book. "Durations" are a better-defined piece of game jargon than "effects," and there is no sourcebook that gives a duration for the sun.

Draz74:

But not for the lack of range. Even if they go full range increments on a thrown weapon (-20 to hit!) they're only going to be able to go out to say, 50'. Less than a Crossbow, from the Monk. That's worse both qualitatively and quantitatively.
You totally missed my point. The Warblade should just go ahead and use a Longbow or Greatbow or something, even if he's not proficient. -4 attack penalty isn't the end of the world (at mid/high levels), and nonproficiency doesn't affect range increments at all.

A charge is all of 60', 40' if the character has a medium load. That's nothing, a horse riding archer can move up to 120' and still shoot a further 165' without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, I'm not going to get involved in the general discussion on the ostensible indomitability of mounted kiting. Yes, it's a nice option to have in your arsenal; there's a reason my spellcasters prefer Phantom Steed over Fly. But plenty of other people have already made sufficient arguments about why Ride as a class skill isn't an important requirement for the Warblade, and I'll defer to them.

See: Mountain Hammer and Elder Mountain Hammer, Bo9S.

If you wanted to be helpful, you could have specified "the Target line". My confusion stemmed from the fact that the descriptive text of those maneuvers says nothing about such a restriction. I just now noticed the Target line.

So, huh, interesting. There actually is a point to the existence of Stone Dragon's Fury. Or, at least, there would be if sundering was a good strategy in general. (Well, it can be, but usually against things that don't take much damage to destroy anyway: holy symbols and spell component pouches. But the things that have lots of HP and/or hardness are usually loot you want to collect.)

But if, for hypothetical sake, we are worried about a character's sundering capability ... then yeah, the Warblade can still learn Stone Dragon's Fury and do better than almost any non-ToB class.

Scow2

2013-10-30, 12:06 AM

Want to know something better a Warblade can do than waste an action sundering an attended object? Disarming Strike - you disarm someone while stabbing them - protecting the loot and kill the bearer in the process.

Talya

2013-10-30, 12:10 AM

You totally missed my point. The Warblade should just go ahead and use a Longbow or Greatbow or something, even if he's not proficient. -4 attack penalty isn't the end of the world (at mid/high levels), and nonproficiency doesn't affect range increments at all.

And again, why would a warblade ever be non-proficient in ANYTHING? Weapon Aptitude is a thing. Specifically, a warblade thing. You can even make an argument for using it to shift one of your existing martial melee proficiencies to the standard longbow, but every warblade should take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (anything.) The ability to pick up any weapon in the game and use it the next day with full proficiency is just too cool.

Draz74

2013-10-30, 12:12 AM

And again, why would a warblade ever be non-proficient in ANYTHING? Weapon Aptitude is a thing. Specifically, a warblade thing. You can even make an argument for using it to shift one of your existing martial melee proficiencies to the standard longbow, but every warblade should take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (anything.) The ability to pick up any weapon in the game and use it the next day with full proficiency is just too cool.

EWP is a good and cool option, but not a must-have IMO, and earlier in my debate with Pickford I already allowed him the assumption that the Warblade in question doesn't have the feat.

eggynack

2013-10-30, 12:20 AM

eggynack:
Why wouldn't IHS just end the Dazzle condition/effect and then the Sun immediately re-applies it? Given that that is an equally valid reading of the ability, I don't think you can assert that IHS can turn off the sun as you have yet to disprove the alternative hypothesis.

What dazzle condition? The condition here is just that our noble warblade is in the sun, with the sunlight upon him. His IHS'ing eliminates the sunlight. It may theoretically teleport him into the Underdark instead, but that reading makes less sense to me. Either way, it would cause some weirdness.

Draz74

2013-10-30, 12:25 AM

What dazzle condition? The condition here is just that our noble warblade is in the sun, with the sunlight upon him. His IHS'ing eliminates the sunlight. It may theoretically teleport him into the Underdark instead, but that reading makes less sense to me. Either way, it would cause some weirdness.

Except, again, "our noble warblade [being] in the sun" (even more so than the sun itself) doesn't have "a duration of 1 round or more."

ryu

2013-10-30, 12:27 AM

Except, again, "our noble warblade [being] in the sun" (even more so than the sun itself) doesn't have "a duration of 1 round or more."

Has he been in the sun for a full round or more? If so it has clearly had at least that long of a duration.:smallbiggrin:

eggynack

2013-10-30, 12:31 AM

Except, again, "our noble warblade [being] in the sun" (even more so than the sun itself) doesn't have "a duration of 1 round or more."
Well, I was arguing against Pickford's argument, rather than yours. As for you, where are you getting your definition of duration, and how does it conflict with the sun having one? IHS doesn't say that you need to know the duration of the thing you're stopping, or that the duration can't be crazy long. It just says "a duration of 1 round or more." I can't see any conflict.

Pickford

2013-10-30, 12:32 AM

Yay! Pickford's back!

And here's the crux of your argument:You can do better than that as a swift action as a Warblade.

A warblade in a ravine has excellent upward mobility to get to the annoying bandits on the top.

Against a horse-archer, the warblade just lays down, takes a nap, and enjoys a few drinks while the archer's arrows whiz harmlessly around him, and occasionally giggles if one of the arrows manages to tickle him until his assailant is out of ammunition and has to cry himself to sleep. If his foe tries to move slow enough to NOT eat the horrendous penalty to attack rolls, he eats the Warblade's running-leap-distance-then-charge. Or a short range teleports through Shadow Hand martial study maneuvers and hauls the guy off his horse. Against a pegasus rider, he kills the darn horse by using his wealth-acquired Flight item, and laughs as the attacker (Who was suffering stupidly large penalties to attack because 3.5 hates archers and mounted characters) plummets to his death. Against a horse-charger, he parries the charge attack (Wall of Blades, I think it's called?), then brutally counterattacks.

And, on the "Mounted Combat" thing... Just give the Warblade (With a +2 Dex modifier at least) a Military Saddle, and he can fight from horseback just fine. The ride skill is 90% useless unless you're trying to be fancy with it.

If overconfidence were armor, the Warblade would clearly have no trouble at all.

Shadow Blink is a level 7 maneuver, and it's limited to 50 ft., so no, that Warblade who burned his 15th or 18th level feat on it isn't going to be catching that Pegasus rider....ever.

You could also fail in this using Shadow Jaunt (standard action) or Shadow Stride (move) and then fall taking 5d6 damage.... oh the options.

Of course, picking up any of those abilities represents 1/7th of the Warblades feats...which means they can't very well pick up any ranged feats (and certainly not mounted).

Draz74:

You totally missed my point. The Warblade should just go ahead and use a Longbow or Greatbow or something, even if he's not proficient. -4 attack penalty isn't the end of the world (at mid/high levels), and nonproficiency doesn't affect range increments at all.

No I got it, it's just that if he's fighting someone like say...an equal level Fighter, that Fighter is going to mow him down. You also can't have weapon focus etc if you don't have proficiency in the weapon.

If you wanted to be helpful, you could have specified "the Target line". My confusion stemmed from the fact that the descriptive text of those maneuvers says nothing about such a restriction. I just now noticed the Target line.

Sorry, I assumed this was self-evident.

Talya: Because they need to burn 2 of 7 feats to be assured of theoretical proficiency in martial ranged weapons and exotic ranged weapons for each new day.

edit: Eggynack: The flaw in the IHS as you are attempting to use it is the spell/effect/condition must have a duration and have that duration be expressed in rounds. If there's no duration listed (e.g. the sun) IHS does nothing but waste your action. If it's listed in turns/minutes/hours/days/years/see text, IHS is again, wasted.

edit2: And the DMG has a list of conditions, 'being in the sun' ain't one.