Two completely unrelated questions: Shapesand and Non-Ability Scores

[Rijan_Sai]

1) Shapesand:
First, I know, (or at least am fairly sure,) that by RAI this would be a big, fat "NO!" Also, by RAW:

it can be sculpted into any form according to your will. The new object is made of sand, but serves as a normal item of the same sort.
which is often quoted as giving you the ability to make Major Artifacts and such...
So, running on RACD, (and maybe ROC,) would it be reasonable, given enough shapesand and a high enough WIS to use it, to create a temporary Effigy Creature with it? Honestly, the only place in the creature description that even remotely references them as "magical" is in the first paragraph:

Effigies are magically animated automatons built in the form other living creatures. They are things of clockwork mechanisms and alchemy, animated by an elemental spirit bound to their mechanical shells. Magical artificers and artisans capable of creating such complex devices are few and far between, so effigies are not at all common.
One more thing about shapesand:

If your Wisdom check succeeds, you can reshape the volume of sand as you desire.
Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I read that bolded part as basically saying that once you establish control, you don't need to make any more checks to reshape the sand, unless you move out of range, or someone else takes control from you.

Now, back to the main point: Everything about an Effigy Creature states that it is a clockwork robot. It loses all forms of "magic" (SU, SLA, EX based on CON) and only retains any feats from the base creature that improve it's ability to fight in melee.
Putting all this together, here's how I see it:
Will the shapesand into the Effigy form you want (with a DC 15 (or 20-25, since you probably don't have Craft Construct,) Craft: Sand Shaping check (hey, it's a real skill! (https://www.google.com/search?q=awesome+sand+castle+pictures&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GVRrUtPSNMWF2gXx5IGoDg&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1360&bih=628)).
For all practical purposes, it is a normal, by-the-book Effigy Creature, just made of sand! The clockwork innards give it the ability to move, and it responds to your "simple commands," like a normal Effigy. (The examples given: “Remain here and attack any elves who enter this room,” or “Follow and defend against any who attack my party.” Or similar...) For this purpose, I would say that changing "orders," being an effect of your will over the sand, should take at least a Move action (like redirecting a spell,) if not a Standard.

The only thing I'm not sure of is what happens if it is reduced to 0 HP. The creature should turn back into sand and fall apart, no question; but would it be normal shapesand, ready for more orders (you would probably need to reestablish control, though,) or would it be inert sand, having lost all magical properties? There's no rules about it in the shapesand description, and a Sand Shaper's creatures are generally made of normal, non-magical "wasteland material" anyway...(I would go with non-controlled shapesand, myself...)

[Rijan_Sai]

2) Non-Ability Scores:
Okay, so this one is more of a "What do you think of this house-rule?"

By RAW, you need to have certain ability scores in order to take/use certain feats and class abilities (for this example, we will be using Power Attack: STR 13 and Meldshaping)

For these examples*, we will have a Ghost Barbarian (STR 20 in life) and a Vampire Totemist (CON 14).

RAW, the Ghost has no STR, so he cannot use PA. The Vampire has no CON, and

Your maximum number of simultaneously shaped soulmelds is equal to your Constitution score –10, or the number indicated in your class table, whichever is less.
which means that he will be unable to shape any soulmelds, ever, for the entirety of his unlife.

This houserule, (which our DM has already implemented, so this isn't a "pull a fast one on the DM",) is this: Any character that gains a NAS, will retain an effective score, equal to what he had in life, for the purpouse of feats and class features.
Basically, the Barb in the example would be able to use his PA (hey, Ghost Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon) is a thing!), but would not have any STR bonus to apply to the attack or damage. And the Totemist would be able to shape a maximum of 4 melds, (after level 4, of course;) he just would not be able to increase his CON to gain more.
That would be it for them, there is no way, of course, to increase an ability that doesn't exist. They would be stuck with what they had when they were alive, but only for feat prereqs and class features (are there any PRCs that have ability score prereqs? If so, this would help them, too.)

*Full disclosure, the character this would affect the most is a Killer Gnome with Earth Sense (CON 13, WIS 13) that is intending to go Lich later in her "career." The DM decided on this rule so that her biggest tricks would not be completely shut down, just because Earth Sense is a prereq for Earth Spell...also ES has the ability score prereqs that Earth Sense does. Yes, we know that that should be the "trade-off" for choosing the path of the dead, but this whole campaign is full of characters that are intended to be stupid powerful, so it's not really "game breaking" in that sense.

[CyberThread]

I just want to undercut a major assumption of your 1st post.


Being able to sculpt sand into the from of a chair ,being able to sculpt it into the high master chair of ultimate wisdom and world dominance, does not mean, that it has the magical abilities of said chair you are making it look like.

[Jack_Simth]

Now, back to the main point: Everything about an Effigy Creature states that it is a clockwork robot. It loses all forms of "magic" (SU, SLA, EX based on CON) and only retains any feats from the base creature that improve it's ability to fight in melee.They're made the same way as magic items. You need a magic item creation feat to make them (which has two magic item creation feats as requirements). You expend GP and XP in making them according to a particular ratio that comes from magic items. The time it takes to make one is governed by the same one that governs magic items. Effigy creatures are, for practical purposes, magic items, and not valid uses of Shapesand (at least at my table). You want to have a vial of reusable shapesand for those X-random tools you'll need while adventuring? Go for it. That's clearly the intent. You want to use it to get cheap, trivially replaceable minions? No.

[Rijan_Sai]

I just want to undercut a major assumption of your 1st post.


Being able to sculpt sand into the from of a chair ,being able to sculpt it into the high master chair of ultimate wisdom and world dominance, does not mean, that it has the magical abilities of said chair you are making it look like.

Though, technically, neither do Effigy Creatures! :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:
Edit: Oh, wait...were you talking about the whole "shapesand Major Artifact" thing? Oh heck no! Not at MY table!:smallsmile:

No matter though:

They're made the same way as magic items. You need a magic item creation feat to make them (which has two magic item creation feats as requirements). You expend GP and XP in making them according to a particular ratio that comes from magic items. The time it takes to make one is governed by the same one that governs magic items. Effigy creatures are, for practical purposes, magic items, and not valid uses of Shapesand (at least at my table). You want to have a vial of reusable shapesand for those X-random tools you'll need while adventuring? Go for it. That's clearly the intent. You want to use it to get cheap, trivially replaceable minions? No.

I know...it was more of a curiosity thought then anything I would actually try to use. No worries!

[CyberThread]

have you thought of shaping your sand, and then casting awaken sand on it from a scroll or something, as it is a divine spell.

Or go the domain wizard varient, and do sand domain, and you get awaken as a 6th level spell.

[Rijan_Sai]

have you thought of shaping your sand, and then casting awaken sand on it from a scroll or something, as it is a divine spell.

Or go the domain wizard varient, and do sand domain, and you get awaken as a 6th level spell.

Hmm...would Awakened Shapesand still be shapeable? Because I'm suddenly envisioning living "Power Armor" made of sand, similar to how some Psions "hide" inside their Astral Constructs! :smallbiggrin:
(I suppose that wouldn't be necessary, if you can find some way to make the sand "loyal," instead of just "friendly." Given that it is amorphous and all...
...
Now that I think about it, would Awakened Shapesand be only friendly, or would it still be under your control from the Wisdom check?)

[unholy_blaze]

Not much to say on #1, but for #2 http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289485 answers some questions about non-scores of ghosts.

I know for a fact you can get around no Con meldshaping:
Undead Meldshaper - 3 int and undead type. Lets you use your wisdom score whenever applicable.

My friends and I always just accept the ups and downs of a non-score. Can't qualify for things but you do gain immunities.

Edit: It does seem like a balanced house rule, as house rules go.

[Crake]

2) Non-Ability Scores:
Okay, so this one is more of a "What do you think of this house-rule?"

By RAW, you need to have certain ability scores in order to take/use certain feats and class abilities (for this example, we will be using Power Attack: STR 13 and Meldshaping)

For these examples*, we will have a Ghost Barbarian (STR 20 in life) and a Vampire Totemist (CON 14).

RAW, the Ghost has no STR, so he cannot use PA. The Vampire has no CON, and

which means that he will be unable to shape any soulmelds, ever, for the entirety of his unlife.

This houserule, (which our DM has already implemented, so this isn't a "pull a fast one on the DM",) is this: Any character that gains a NAS, will retain an effective score, equal to what he had in life, for the purpouse of feats and class features.
Basically, the Barb in the example would be able to use his PA (hey, Ghost Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#ghostTouchWeapon) is a thing!), but would not have any STR bonus to apply to the attack or damage. And the Totemist would be able to shape a maximum of 4 melds, (after level 4, of course;) he just would not be able to increase his CON to gain more.
That would be it for them, there is no way, of course, to increase an ability that doesn't exist. They would be stuck with what they had when they were alive, but only for feat prereqs and class features (are there any PRCs that have ability score prereqs? If so, this would help them, too.)

*Full disclosure, the character this would affect the most is a Killer Gnome with Earth Sense (CON 13, WIS 13) that is intending to go Lich later in her "career." The DM decided on this rule so that her biggest tricks would not be completely shut down, just because Earth Sense is a prereq for Earth Spell...also ES has the ability score prereqs that Earth Sense does. Yes, we know that that should be the "trade-off" for choosing the path of the dead, but this whole campaign is full of characters that are intended to be stupid powerful, so it's not really "game breaking" in that sense.

The ghost could still have power attack, since the ghost actually has a strength score on the ethereal plane, however he couldn't use it while manifesting on the material plane, since while doing so he lacks a str score (which by extension makes him not qualify for power attack, and thus unable to use it). But for combat on the ethereal plane, where he's actually able to exert force, he can use power attack fine.