[3.5] [ToB] [Build] Blade of Eternity [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

View Full Version : [3.5] [ToB] [Build] Blade of Eternity

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 08:32 AM

Okay, folks. So my last attempt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310186) at a "let's build a character" thread bombed a bit. That's fine. The two prior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307217) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308622) were pretty awesome, so I'd like to capitalize on those.

The theme of this thread is the Eternal Blade prestige class from ToB. The focus of this thread will be extremely narrow; I think it will provide an excellent challenge to some of our optimizers.

And now, The Rules: The build must use all ten levels of Eternal Blade. Obviously, this takes up half of the build. Obviously, this also requires that the preceding class(es) give full BAB advancement, since Eternal Blade requires a +10 BAB as an entry tax.
The race must be some kind of Elf. I lean towards Snow Elf (from Frostburn), simply because Cha is a good dump stat, but I'm open to ideas. Additional templates are welcome, but for flavor purposes, I want to avoid any template that chances the base creature type or subtype. So no Fey, and no Dragonborn. Further, only +0 LA templates (or elf-races) will be allowed. Drow are obviously discouraged.
With regard to anything deity-related, the character will worship Corellon. Non-negotiable. Plan accordingly.
The build must have at least 14 16 full-IL class levels. That means it must use at least 4 6 levels of a ToB base class. (This has been updated to reflect the fact that EB must be able to pick up a 9th-level maneuver at EB 9, not EB 10.) Additionally, to simplify book-keeping requirements, the build may use only one ToB base class. That means either Warblade or Crusader. (Swordsage does not give adequate BAB progression, so it's right out.)
The build may not include any class which provides spell or spell-like mechanics. This includes arcane casting, divine casting, psionics, mysteries, truenaming. Binding is possible, if you find a way to integrate it without hindering BAB progression. SLA/PLAs are also acceptable.
The build must progress from Level 1 to Level 20.
Sources: The setting is 3.5. 3.0 material is acceptable if it has been updated to 3.5 formally. PF is right out. Any first-party source is acceptable. Homebrews and third-party sources are not.
Pick up your pencils... And begin!

Builds are posted! Comments are welcomed.

Here is Build #1!
Talya proposed this, before Feint's End pointed out that it lacks 9th-level maneuvers. Nonetheless, it is so awesome I just had to include it.

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=3}Maneuvers

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1|Swashbuckler 1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Weapon Finesse|Combat Expertise||
0|
0|
0

2|Swashbuckler 2|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Grace +1|||
0|
0|
0

3|Swashbuckler 3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Insightful Strike|Mounted Combat||
0|
0|
0

4|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 1|
+4|
+5|
+1|
+1|Battle Clarity (reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude|||
3|
3|
1

5|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 2|
+5|
+6|
+1|
+1|Uncanny Dodge|||
4|
3|
1

6|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 3|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+2|Battle Ardor (critical confirmation)|Dodge||
5|
3|
1

7|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4|
+7|
+7|
+2|
+2||||
5|
4|
2

8|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 1*|
+8|
+9|
+2|
+4|Corellon's Blessing, Bonus Feat|Weapon Focus (Whatever)||
5|
4|
2

9|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 2|
+9|
+10|
+2|
+5|Elegant Strike|Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)/ Leadership**||
5|
4|
2

10|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3|
+10|
+10|
+3|
+5|Superior Defense +1|||
5|
4|
2

11|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 1|
+11|
+12|
+3|
+5|Blade Guide, Eternal Training 1/day|||
6|
4|
2

12|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 2|
+12|
+13|
+3|
+5|Guided Strike|Improved Weapon Familiarity||
6|
4|
2

13|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 3|
+13|
+13|
+4|
+6|Armored Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training 2/day|||
7|
5|
2

14|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 4|
+14|
+14|
+4|
+6|Eternal Knowledge|||
7|
5|
2

15|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 5|
+15|
+14|
+4|
+6|Eternal Training 3/day|Power Attack||
8|
5|
3

16|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 6|
+16|
+15|
+5|
+7|Defensive Insight|||
8|
6|
3

17|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 7|
+17|
+15|
+5|
+7|Eternal Training 4/day|||
9|
6|
3

18|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 8|
+18|
+16|
+5|
+7|Tactical Insight|Feat***||
9|
6|
3

19|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 9|
+19|
+16|
+6|
+8|Eternal Training 5/day|||
10|
7|
3

20|Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 4/ Champion of Corellon Larethian 3/ Eternal Blade 10|
+20|
+17|
+6|
+8|Island in Time|||
10|
7|
3
[/table]

* It occurred to me while putting this together that CoCL also requires Weapon Focus (longsword) or EWP (elven thinblade/courtblade) before taking the class. This is a problem. I should probably figure out a re-work that gets these.
** This is taken to acquire a flying mount. Which is awesome.
*** To be filled in once I figure out a good one.

And Build #2:
Talya helped me hash this one out after realizing some complications resulting from Champion of Corellon Larethian. I regret losing that class; it's a perfect "paragon of elvenkind" class, but the feat taxes were too obscene, and made the build a bit too MAD.

As an awesome bonus, this build has sufficient IL to take Time Stands Still at level 19, which - combined with Stormguard Warrior - results in exploding cheese. Behold!

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=3}Maneuvers

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
Maneuvers Known|
Maneuvers Readied|
Stances Known

1|Swashbuckler 1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Weapon Finesse|Combat Expertise||
0|
0|
0

2|Swashbuckler 2|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Grace +1|||
0|
0|
0

3|Swashbuckler 3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Insightful Strike|Power Attack||
0|
0|
0

4|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian* 1|
+4|
+5|
+1|
+1|Pounce**, Whirling Frenzy 1/day***|||
0|
0|
0

5|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 1|
+5|
+7|
+1|
+1|Battle Clarity (reflex saves), Weapon Aptitude|||
3|
3|
1

6|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 2|
+6|
+8|
+1|
+1|Uncanny Dodge|Weapon Focus (whatever's on hand)||
4|
3|
1

7|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 3|
+7|
+8|
+2|
+2|Battle Ardor (critical confirmation)|||
5|
3|
1

8|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 4|
+8|
+9|
+2|
+2||||
5|
4|
2

9|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 5|
+9|
+9|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat|Ironheart Aura, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)/ Leadership****||
6|
4|
2

10|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6|
+10|
+10|
+3|
+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|||
6|
4|
2

11|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 1|
+11|
+12|
+3|
+3|Blade Guide, Eternal Training 1/day|||
7|
4|
2

12|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 2|
+12|
+13|
+3|
+3|Guided Strike|Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whatever's on hand)*****||
7|
4|
2

13|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 3|
+13|
+13|
+4|
+4|Armored Uncanny Dodge******, Eternal Training 2/day|||
8|
5|
2

14|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 4|
+14|
+14|
+4|
+4|Eternal Knowledge|||
8|
5|
2

15|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 5|
+15|
+14|
+4|
+4|Eternal Training 3/day|Martial Study (Shadow Hand: Shadow Blink)||
9|
5|
3

16|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 6|
+16|
+15|
+5|
+5|Defensive Insight|||
9|
6|
3

17|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 7|
+17|
+15|
+5|
+5|Eternal Training 4/day|||
10|
6|
3

18|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 8|
+18|
+16|
+5|
+5|Tactical Insight|Stormguard Warrior||
10|
6|
3

19|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 9|
+19|
+16|
+6|
+6|Eternal Training 5/day|||
11|
7|
3

20|Swashbuckler 3/ Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Eternal Blade 10|
+20|
+17|
+6|
+6|Island in Time|||
11|
7|
3
[/table]

* This Barbarian is technically a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian. These features will be explained shortly.
** The Spirit Lion Totem variant (Complete Champion) replaces Barbarian's Fast Movement class feature with Pounce, which allows a full attack on a charge.
*** The Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) (Unearthed Arcana) replaces Barbarian's Rage class feature with Whirling Frenzy. When triggered, a Whirling Frenzy gives the Barbarian +4 Strength, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. During a Whirling Frenzy, the Barbarian may make one extra attack per round at his highest BAB, but all attacks made that round take a -2 penalty, including AoOs.
**** This is taken to acquire a flying mount. Which is awesome.
***** Thanks to Warblade's ability, I can switch this out for anything on hand. And I really like the Elven Courtblade. Also asterisks.
****** Since this build already has Improved Uncanny Dodge, Armored Uncanny Dodge should stack with it to determine the minimal Rogue level needed to flank.

Special thanks to Talya for some truly awesome build advice, and for introducing me to Champion of Corellon Larethian and some neat Elvish exotic weapons!

As a side note, to those of you who say ToB isn't ranged-friendly, there are some excellent posts in this thread on some fairly sick arrow-storm builds using Eternal Blade. I encourage you to take a look!

Chambers

2013-10-26, 09:03 AM

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 10:33 AM

So you've got two basic builds.

Martial Adept 10/Eternal Blade
Martial Adept 5/Other Class 5/Eternal Blade

The Other Class could be a Prestige Class or another Base Class (in which case you could drop Martial Adept levels down to 4). You're pretty well locked into Melee Fighting as your style of combat for this character but there's still wide variety within that. What kind of Melee Fighting are you going for? That will probably help us define what those other levels are.

Valid question. That part, at least, is entirely open. Want to suggest a Crusader-based tanking build with reach? Be my guest. Have ideas on a two-handed weapon shred-machine? I'm listening. Got a charge-monster you've been thinking about? You have my attention.

I don't claim to know which one is "best," so I just try to listen, and see what ideas people come up with that sound fun.

I will say, however, that ranged combat is out. I don't see an Eternal Blade archer build fitting in here. But melee? Go nuts.

Chambers

2013-10-26, 10:41 AM

Talya

2013-10-26, 10:44 AM

I want to preface this by saying I don't like the Crusader. I don't like the class features. I don't like their limited choices of schools. I don't like their granted maneuver mechanic. With that said, Crusader fits the style I'm going for here more than Warblade. I'm not really happy about this, because I love the Warblade, and I'm going to use it. Also, I don't like completely dumping charisma, and this build actually has some minor use for it.

You didn't list point buys, i'm assuming 32 (28 is so boring, but you can adapt it.)

She's an avenging elf angel of life & death in gleaming heavy armor, descending from above on her flying mount...
Summary: +dex to hit. +int and dex to damage. Power attack. Flying mount. Heavy armor with a rather high max dex bonus.

Grey Elf w/Magic Blooded (Spark) template (+0 template, Dragon Magazine). Total racial mods: +2 dex/int/cha, -2 str/con/wis
Starting abilities: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 6, Cha 14

Swashbuckler 3. Combat Expertise (1), Mounted Combat (3).
--Class abilities: Weapon Finesse, +int to damage.
Warblade 4. Dodge (6 - or use your favorite legal dodge prereq substitute)
--Class Abilities: Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor
--Maneuvers Known: 5 up to level 3. Must include Diamond Mind will save.
--Stances Known: One first level stance, one third level stance.
Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW) 3. Wild Cohort or Leadership (9 - use it to get a fancy flying mount), Weapon Focus (Bonus)
Class Abilities: Corellon's Blessing (Lay Hands), Elegant Strike (+dex to damage), Superior Defense (Max Dex bonus in armor +1)
Eternal Blade 10. recommend Weapon Familiarity, Power Attack, (insert feat of your choice)

Required Gear: +x nimble mithral fullplate (+5 max dex), +6 str belt, + dex gear, +x keen elven courtblade (1d10 finessable 2 hander with 18-20/x2 crit range, with your enhancements of choice.)

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 10:45 AM

Warblade/RevenantBlade5/EternalBlade10 for TWF. Prereqs, TWF, and Martial Study for the pouncing maneuver eat most of the feats.

Ramza00

2013-10-26, 10:54 AM

Talya

2013-10-26, 10:56 AM

Talya I like your build, but I would drop Champion of Corellon Larethian 3 and make it only CoCL 2. That 1 level of CoCL only increases your AC by 1 and it is not a very useful level.

A level of Whirling Frenzy Barbarian on the other hand with Lion Totem substitution for pounce, gives you an extra attack and pounce which is a much better trade for 1 AC.

I actually considered it. while building it, mechanically, I agree. I just like the image of her being unusally flexible and agile in full plate (I'll sometimes intentionally avoid the "optimal" choice if I like the feel of the suboptimal one better)...

Now, with that said, if I were to drop CoCL3 (the armor would become Mithral breastplate) , I'd probably take warblade 5. The bonus feat could REALLY be used by this build. Whirling Frenzy barbarian would require extra rage feat to make it worthwhile, and she's feat starved already.

(Now, if flaws are allowed...)

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 11:07 AM

The Eternal Knowledge ability seems like it will work with the Knowledge Devotion feat. It might require a bit of house ruling though, as technically Eternal Knowledge has the Blade Guide make the check, not you. I think it fits thematically though and don't imagine it'd be a hard sell to a DM.

Hmm... It would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it. But since EB tends to be an int-focused melee anyway, Knowledge Devotion is probably a worthwhile investment.

I want to preface this by saying I don't like the Crusader. I don't like the class features. I don't like their limited choices of schools. I don't like their granted maneuver mechanic. With that said, Crusader fits the style I'm going for here more than Warblade. I'm not really happy about this, because I love the Warblade, and I'm going to use it. Also, I don't like completely dumping charisma, and this build actually has some minor use for it.

You didn't list point buys, i'm assuming 32 (28 is so boring, but you can adapt it.)

She's an avenging elf angel of life & death in gleaming heavy armor, descending from above on her flying mount...
Summary: +dex to hit. +int and dex to damage. Power attack. Flying mount. Heavy armor with a rather high max dex bonus.

Grey Elf w/Magic Blooded (Spark) template (+0 template, Dragon Magazine). Total racial mods: +2 dex/int/cha, -2 str/con/wis
Starting abilities: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 6, Cha 14

Swashbuckler 3. Combat Expertise (1), Mounted Combat (3).
--Class abilities: Weapon Finesse, +int to damage.
Warblade 4. Dodge (6 - or use your favorite legal dodge prereq substitute)
--Class Abilities: Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor
--Maneuvers Known: 5 up to level 3. Must include Diamond Mind will save.
--Stances Known: One first level stance, one third level stance.
Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW) 3. Wild Cohort or Leadership (9 - use it to get a fancy flying mount), Weapon Focus (Bonus)
Class Abilities: Corellon's Blessing (Lay Hands), Elegant Strike (+dex to damage), Superior Defense (Max Dex bonus in armor +1)
Eternal Blade 10. recommend Weapon Familiarity, Power Attack, (insert feat of your choice)

Required Gear: +x nimble mithral fullplate (+5 max dex), +6 str belt, + dex gear, +x keen elven courtblade (1d10 finessable 2 hander with 18-20/x2 crit range, with your enhancements of choice.)

Ahh, the first build of the thread. I love that new build smell. Let's have a look.

First off, I happen to agree with you on Warblade versus Crusader. The latter can accomplish some unique tanking feats, but I tend to love the Warblade more, and I think it has better synergy with EB than Crusader does. I still left the door open, just in case.

Interesting that you went Grey Elf. And while I like the Magic Blooded template, I don't know that it technically qualifies. (Does Dragon Magazine count as first-party?) I appreciate the Dex/Int/Cha, but it surprises me that you're willing to soak the hit to Str and Con on a melee character. Surprises, but also intrigues.

This build... I kind of love it. Dex is the elven hallmark, so a dexterous warrior is brilliant. A dexterous warrior in heavy armor is both inconceivable and awesome. And a smart dexterous warrior, mounting up for combat, is an awesome image. And all of the above, with the Dex and Int synergies... It's sick. It's awesome.

I'll have to look into the Champion and Swashbuckler classes - I don't recall them off the top of my head - but I like the flavor they bring. Particularly the former. And good job keeping with the 14+ levels of full-IL classes; level 9 maneuvers are guaranteed.

Overall? This sauce, it is awesome.

Warblade/RevenantBlade5/EternalBlade10 for TWF. Prereqs, TWF, and Martial Study for the pouncing maneuver eat most of the feats.

Interesting. I hear TWF gets a lot of flack, though. What makes this Eternal Revenant build so hot? Can you give me a little more to work with?

Talya I like your build, but I would drop Champion of Corellon Larethian 3 and make it only CoCL 2. That 1 level of CoCL only increases your AC by 1 and it is not a very useful level.

A level of Whirling Frenzy Barbarian on the other hand with Lion Totem substitution for pounce, gives you an extra attack and pounce which is a much better trade for 1 AC.

Okay. I definitely have to look CoCL up now. This is an interesting point.

As for Pounce... I've heard good things about it. I think I ended up getting something like that on my MechaSmackDragon build. But I'd like to know how you play that out, mechanically, with the rest of the build. Her build is focused on Dex and Int, with some Cha. Wouldn't a Pounce-based build need more Str and Con to support it?

I actually considered it. while building it, mechanically, I agree. I just like the image of her being unusally flexible and agile in full plate (I'll sometimes intentionally avoid the "optimal" choice if I like the feel of the suboptimal one better)...

Now, with that said, if I were to drop CoCL3 (the armor would become Mithral breastplate) , I'd probably take warblade 5. The bonus feat could REALLY be used by this build. Whirling Frenzy barbarian would require extra rage feat to make it worthwhile, and she's feat starved already.

(Now, if flaws are allowed...)

I'd like to avoid flaws if possible; not every table allows them.

Talya, if I understand now, the reasoning behind the extra level of CoCL is the advantage to Dex in heavier armor, right? If the build is Dex-focused, I think you're right to go with that. (I still have to check out that class. When I get a moment to breathe.) On the other hand, if the Dex is a factor, but not a focus, I wouldn't mind the extra Warblade level.

Lot of thinking and reading to do...

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 11:14 AM

Interesting. I hear TWF gets a lot of flack, though. What makes this Eternal Revenant build so hot? Can you give me a little more to work with?

Power Attack on each end of your double scimitar as though each was being held in two hands with RB. TWF officially has no downside aside from a couple of feats some $$ at this point. Time Stands Still for maximum hurt. Ignore DR with Eternal Blade if your weapon lacks the right properties.

To save on stats and feats, you can avoid GTWF.

Talya

2013-10-26, 11:20 AM

Talya, if I understand now, the reasoning behind the extra level of CoCL is the advantage to Dex in heavier armor, right? If the build is Dex-focused, I think you're right to go with that. (I still have to check out that class. When I get a moment to breathe.) On the other hand, if the Dex is a factor, but not a focus, I wouldn't mind the extra Warblade level.

Lot of thinking and reading to do...

Yeah. A full ten levels in CoCL would be feel absolutely great (and be mechanically horrible). I've always wanted to use it. They're like a dexterity-based elven knight.

At level 2 they get +dex to damage. At level 3 they start improving their max dex in heavy armor. Level 1 includes a bonus feat and lay hands (although the lay hands is weak without a charisma focus and more CoCL levels).

Note I'm relying on a +6 str belt to qualify for power attack on her. While RAW this works, some tables don't like it.

Doc_Maynot

2013-10-26, 11:23 AM

Wood Elf
Knight 3/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 3/Eternal Blade 10

Spiked chain wielder, in a reach/(limited) battlefield control build that focuses on STR, DEX and CHA
Using fighter bonus feats to gain the two maneuvers needed through Martial Study.
Grabbing Exotic Reach, Uncanny Blow, and Trip attack in EWM.

Feats: (Change order to suit)
1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
3rd: Item Familiar
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Martial Study
6th: Ancestral Weapon
Fighter 3: Weapon Focus:Spiked Chain
9th: Martial Study
12th: Stand Still
15th: Robilar's Gambit
18th: Mage Slayer

Talya

2013-10-26, 11:24 AM

Doc_Maynot

2013-10-26, 11:25 AM

Oh I didn't see that bit... Sorry

Feint's End

2013-10-26, 11:59 AM

I feel like it's my duty to inform you of something. You will need 6 levels in an initiator base class before level 11. Why? Because Eternal Blade gets the last maneuver known at level 9 meaning that you have to have an IL of 17 at Level 19 to pick a 9th level maneuver preepic (I mean if you don't care for getting it pre epic it's no problem but I don't see the point in looking for 9th level maneuvers then).

With just 4 or 5 levels you will still have an IL of 16 at level 19.
IL 16 with 4 levels and IL 16.5 with 5 levels.

You should definitely consider this when building this character.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 12:02 PM

EB may actually subvert that requirement innately, depending on how you read their abilities.

Talya

2013-10-26, 12:09 PM

EB may actually subvert that requirement innately, depending on how you read their abilities.

Eternal Training most certainly bypasses it.

IronFist

2013-10-26, 12:40 PM

Yeah. A full ten levels in CoCL would be feel absolutely great (and be mechanically horrible). I've always wanted to use it. They're like a dexterity-based elven knight.

At level 2 they get +dex to damage. At level 3 they start improving their max dex in heavy armor. Level 1 includes a bonus feat and lay hands (although the lay hands is weak without a charisma focus and more CoCL levels).

Note I'm relying on a +6 str belt to qualify for power attack on her. While RAW this works, some tables don't like it.

This is almost completely offtopic, but I always wanted to play a Swordsage/Wildrunner/Champion of Corellon. Dex x2 to damage... and Wildrunner has a Rage-like Dex boost.

Feint's End

2013-10-26, 01:05 PM

Eternal Training most certainly bypasses it.

Sure ... but you just will have 9th level maneuvers temporary. If you don't mind this then go ahead but I personally feel much better in having maneuvers which I actually know instead of my bladeguides (which can be intercepted in some way I bet)

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 01:13 PM

Power Attack on each end of your double scimitar as though each was being held in two hands with RB. TWF officially has no downside aside from a couple of feats some $$ at this point. Time Stands Still for maximum hurt. Ignore DR with Eternal Blade if your weapon lacks the right properties.

To save on stats and feats, you can avoid GTWF.

I'm... Not sure I followed all that. So let me try.

You take a Double Scimitar. RB's fifth-level ability allows me to treat both as two-handed, giving me the bonus to strength. I pay three feat taxes to get this bonus, but I can then attack with both ends, something something, two weapon fighting, something? Having never done a TWF-build, I'm not entirely sure how it works, but I'm guessing the damage output is awesome?

Yeah. A full ten levels in CoCL would be feel absolutely great (and be mechanically horrible). I've always wanted to use it. They're like a dexterity-based elven knight.

At level 2 they get +dex to damage. At level 3 they start improving their max dex in heavy armor. Level 1 includes a bonus feat and lay hands (although the lay hands is weak without a charisma focus and more CoCL levels).

Note I'm relying on a +6 str belt to qualify for power attack on her. While RAW this works, some tables don't like it.

Alrighty. I've looked at the class. Wow, that's a lot of feat tax. And now I get that third level - +1 max Dex to AC. Paired with Mithral full plate, that's pretty nice. Admittedly, if I removed the Dex focus, this ability would be completely irrelevant. But for flavor... I admit, I really like this. Also, the bonus feat is a nice touch - this build's gonna have a lot of nice bonus feats.

Wood Elf
Knight 3/Fighter 4/Exotic Weapon Master 3/Eternal Blade 10

Spiked chain wielder, in a reach/(limited) battlefield control build that focuses on STR, DEX and CHA
Using fighter bonus feats to gain the two maneuvers needed through Martial Study.
Grabbing Exotic Reach, Uncanny Blow, and Trip attack in EWM.

Feats: (Change order to suit)
1st: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
3rd: Item Familiar
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Martial Study
6th: Ancestral Weapon
Fighter 3: Weapon Focus:Spiked Chain
9th: Martial Study
12th: Stand Still
15th: Robilar's Gambit
18th: Mage Slayer

Sadly, as Talya pointed out, this uses too few full-IL class levels, so it's out. But it's a smart build, kudos on that.

I feel like it's my duty to inform you of something. You will need 6 levels in an initiator base class before level 11. Why? Because Eternal Blade gets the last maneuver known at level 9 meaning that you have to have an IL of 17 at Level 19 to pick a 9th level maneuver preepic (I mean if you don't care for getting it pre epic it's no problem but I don't see the point in looking for 9th level maneuvers then).

With just 4 or 5 levels you will still have an IL of 16 at level 19.
IL 16 with 4 levels and IL 16.5 with 5 levels.

You should definitely consider this when building this character.

This... Is a point I had forgotten. You're absolutely right. And unlike Warblade, EB doesn't have that whole "maneuver trade-out" trick. On the other hand, as Talya points out, Eternal Training gets me that maneuver, with greater flexibility - I can swap out, say, Strike of Perfect Clarity for Time Stands Still on a day-to-day basis. Admittedly, that method lacks the permanence of simply having the maneuver, and that option vanishes at the end of an encounter.

I would love to be able to tack on a level of Warblade after reaching EB 10, in order to bypass this, but unfortunately, EB's BAB tax requires 10 levels of full BAB prior to EB 1; I can't see a clean way to get Warblade +1 after EB 10 without going into epic levels.

Ultimately, Eternal Training gets me around it. It's a messy solution, but a valid point; this build simply won't have access to level 9 maneuvers normally.

I want to earmark this build, because it is awesome and sick, but let's consider some possibilities that would let EB use 9th-level maneuvers naturally. So, from here on out, let's modify the rules: Only 4 non-ToB levels permitted. This should allow me to get a 9th-level maneuver at EB 9.

Any suggestions?

Talya

2013-10-26, 02:01 PM

That's less fun, but I can see the point.

At that point, i'm tempted to completely skip swashbuckler, but otherwise use a similar build. All you really miss out on is +Int to damage. (This does mean you can drop int down to 16 and have 4 points to spend elsewhere on the buy).

The big problem with this is it's easy to end up stuck with a second level 1 stance with warblade if you're not careful, and level 7 warblade does almost nothing other than very important half initiator level. (Even improved uncanny dodge is redundant at this point - you're getting it from EB anyway). The only nice thing it lets you do is trade out a lower level maneuver...so...let's see, maybe you enter like this?

(1) Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
-Combat Expertise
(2) Swashbuckler (IL1) *here i'm going for the bonus feat. We still need weapon finesse. Fighter would work, but it gets two less skill points.*
-Weapon Finesse (B)
(3) Warblade (IL2) 3 maneuvers, 1 stance
-Mounted Combat
(4) Warblade (IL3) 1 maneuver
(5) Warblade (IL4) 1 maneuver
(6) Warblade (IL5) 1 stance, trade 1 maneuver
-Dodge
(7) Warblade (IL6) 1 maneuver
-Improved Initiative (B)
(8) Champion of Corellon Larethian lay hands
-Weapon Focus (B)
(9) Champion of Corellon Larethian (IL7) +dex to damage
-Improved Weapon Familiarity
(10) Warblade (IL8) trade 1 maneuver

Later feats would be power attack, extra rage...

Instead of Wild Cohort or Leadership, you can just train up a decent mount if you're feat starved.

Alternately, drop Champion of Corellon. It hurts the style, but ultimately, you're getting dex-to-damage from it, and the feat tax is brutal. (Made worse because I tend to take advantage of feat taxes by taking more feats that make them good, like Wild Cohort with Mounted Combat.)

So...

(1) Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
- Extra Rage
(2) Swashbuckler
- Weapon Finesse (B)
(3) Swashbuckler
- Exotic Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
(4) Swashbuckler +Int to damage
(5) Warblade (IL3) 3 maneuvers, 1 stance
(6) Warblade (IL4) 1 maneuver
- Weapon Focus
(7) Warblade (IL5) 1 maneuver
(8) Warblade (IL6) 1 stance, trade 1 maneuver
(9) Warblade (IL7) 1 maneuver
- Improved Initiative, Martial Study (Shadow hand maneuver)
(10) Warblade (IL8) trade 1 maneuver

Later feats (in no particular order): Martial Stance (Shadow hand stance), Shadow Blade, Power Attack

Here you're still getting +dex and int to damage, and able to power attack.

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 02:44 PM

That's less fun, but I can see the point.

At that point, i'm tempted to completely skip swashbuckler, but otherwise use a similar build. All you really miss out on is +Int to damage. (This does mean you can drop int down to 16 and have 4 points to spend elsewhere on the buy).

The big problem with this is it's easy to end up stuck with a second level 1 stance with warblade if you're not careful, and level 7 warblade does almost nothing other than very important half initiator level. (Even improved uncanny dodge is redundant at this point - you're getting it from EB anyway). The only nice thing it lets you do is trade out a lower level maneuver...so...let's see, maybe you enter like this?

(1) Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
-Combat Expertise
(2) Swashbuckler (IL1) *here i'm going for the bonus feat. We still need weapon finesse. Fighter would work, but it gets two less skill points.*
-Weapon Finesse (B)
(3) Warblade (IL2) 3 maneuvers, 1 stance
-Mounted Combat
(4) Warblade (IL3) 1 maneuver
(5) Warblade (IL4) 1 maneuver
(6) Warblade (IL5) 1 stance, trade 1 maneuver
-Dodge
(7) Warblade (IL6) 1 maneuver
-Improved Initiative (B)
(8) Champion of Corellon Larethian lay hands
-Weapon Focus (B)
(9) Champion of Corellon Larethian (IL7) +dex to damage
-Improved Weapon Familiarity
(10) Warblade (IL8) trade 1 maneuver

Later feats would be power attack, extra rage...

Instead of Wild Cohort or Leadership, you can just train up a decent mount if you're feat starved.

Here's something I noticed about this build when I was putting it in the table in the OP, though. You're missing Weapon Focus prior to CoCL. Unless I'm misreading, WF (longsword) or EWP (elven thinblade/courtblade) is required to take CoCL.

See the problem? (Hint: Not enough feats to take CoCL before level 9.)

Alternately, drop Champion of Corellon. It hurts the style, but ultimately, you're getting dex-to-damage from it, and the feat tax is brutal. (Made worse because I tend to take advantage of feat taxes by taking more feats that make them good, like Wild Cohort with Mounted Combat.)

So...

(1) Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian
- Extra Rage
(2) Swashbuckler
- Weapon Finesse (B)
(3) Swashbuckler
- Exotic Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
(4) Swashbuckler +Int to damage
(5) Warblade (IL3) 3 maneuvers, 1 stance
(6) Warblade (IL4) 1 maneuver
- Weapon Focus
(7) Warblade (IL5) 1 maneuver
(8) Warblade (IL6) 1 stance, trade 1 maneuver
(9) Warblade (IL7) 1 maneuver
- Improved Initiative, Martial Study (Shadow hand maneuver)
(10) Warblade (IL8) trade 1 maneuver

Later feats (in no particular order): Martial Stance (Shadow hand stance), Shadow Blade, Power Attack

Here you're still getting +dex and int to damage, and able to power attack.

The fact is, I like CoCL for this build. I really do. It fits the flavor so nicely it hurts.

A part of me wonders if, just for purposes of Build #1, we could ignore the IL requirement and find a way to get Warblade, CoCL and EB on the build. The heck with the 9th-level maneuvers.

That's only for Build #1, though. I still want Build #2 to have access to 9th-level maneuvers. But Build #1 just seems so fun, it's almost criminal to neglect it.

Firechanter

2013-10-26, 02:56 PM

Techwarrior

2013-10-26, 03:15 PM

Here's something I noticed about this build when I was putting it in the table in the OP, though. You're missing Weapon Focus prior to CoCL. Unless I'm misreading, WF (longsword) or EWP (elven thinblade/courtblade) is required to take CoCL.

See the problem? (Hint: Not enough feats to take CoCL before level 9.)

Per I believe Complete Warrior, although it might also be in Races of the Wild, an elf can swap out their racial weapon proficiencies with any other weapon with 'Elven' in the name. Take one of your four racial proficiencies and pick up Courtblade that way.

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 03:32 PM

Just a quick snap-in:

You might rub this one right against the grain and make it a _Ranged_ combatant, at least in endgame.
If you take Warblade as base class, pick up an Exotic WP, you can swap it out on a daily basis and take Greatbow when you want to go Ranged. All other weapon specific feats? Can also be swapped out. So you can be Melee for the first 16 levels and then switch when your 9th level maneuver comes online.

I remember reading about a nice synergy between Island in Time + Time Stands Still + Bow, but apart from getting out a crapload of arrows when it's not even your turn, I don't really remember the clou.

As intriguing as that sounds, I explicitly want this build to be a melee build, not ranged. That said, if you ever do find a link to that synergy? Send it my way.

Per I believe Complete Warrior, although it might also be in Races of the Wild, an elf can swap out their racial weapon proficiencies with any other weapon with 'Elven' in the name. Take one of your four racial proficiencies and pick up Courtblade that way.

You might be thinking of the Improved Weapon Familiarity feat from CW, which allows you to become proficient in any of your race's weapons, without having to take EWP.

I can't imagine why they would offer a feat for it while giving it away for free, but I suppose with WotC's editing history, that's entirely possible. I'll have to double-check that point.

Cog

2013-10-26, 03:32 PM

Per I believe Complete Warrior, although it might also be in Races of the Wild, an elf can swap out their racial weapon proficiencies with any other weapon with 'Elven' in the name. Take one of your four racial proficiencies and pick up Courtblade that way.

That rule is in Complete Warrior, but you can only trade an exotic familiarity for another exotic familiarity, and standard elves only get martial proficiencies. Valenar elves trade those four martial proficiencies for a single exotic familiarity, which per C.Warrior can then be swapped around among the elven exotic weapons.

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 03:38 PM

That rule is in Complete Warrior, but you can only trade an exotic familiarity for another exotic familiarity, and standard elves only get martial proficiencies. Valenar elves trade those four martial proficiencies for a single exotic familiarity, which per C.Warrior can then be swapped around among the elven exotic weapons.

Ahh. See, this is why I need to double-check things.

Yeah, according to the SRD (and PHB), "Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow." All of those are martial, not exotic. Even with the ability to exchange exotic proficiencies, that won't help with only martial ones to use.

Talya

2013-10-26, 04:06 PM

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 04:15 PM

Ah missed that.

Well, Exotic Weapon Proficiency works in place of Improved Weapon Familiarity. Technically IWF will get you proficiency in all the "Elven" weapons, but depending on the DM it may not qualify you for CoCL.

I'd say it would count, but it still has to be taken prior to CoCL. That requires a certain shuffling of feats.

CoCL requires four feats:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mounted Combat
Weapon Focus (longsword) OR EWP (elven thinblade) OR EWP (elven courtblade)Ordinarily, that would require a feat at level 1, one at level 3, one at level 6, and another at level 9, before one could qualify for CoCL. If a class or race gave a bonus feat, that could reduce the minimum level to 6. In order to take multiple levels of CoCL, and still take full EB, I must find a source of a bonus feat. Five levels of Warblade accomplishes that. Basically, going for Swashbuckler 2/ Warblade 5/ CoCL 3, or Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 5/ CoCL 2, will work.

So, since this is your baby, Talya, which would you recommend? As an aside, you can certainly swap out one of the first levels for Barbarian, if that's what you'd recommend.

Talya

2013-10-26, 04:57 PM

Firechanter

2013-10-26, 05:54 PM

As intriguing as that sounds, I explicitly want this build to be a melee build, not ranged. That said, if you ever do find a link to that synergy? Send it my way.

I think I found the original post, there's not a real synergy beyond "craploads of arrows when it's not your turn", but it does allow you to interrupt a caster running the Contingency:Celerity routine.
Between Time Stands Still, Rapid Shot, a Haste effect and a Splitting bow, you get off 24 arrows in this round. With Woodland Archer (and a "stacking" interpretation of the Adjust for Range bonus) most of these will hit. In short, you'll be able to oneshot pretty much anything you might encounter.

Here is the link with the full description:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10783653&postcount=77

Eldariel

2013-10-26, 07:15 PM

I think I found the original post, there's not a real synergy beyond "craploads of arrows when it's not your turn", but it does allow you to interrupt a caster running the Contingency:Celerity routine.
Between Time Stands Still, Rapid Shot, a Haste effect and a Splitting bow, you get off 24 arrows in this round. With Woodland Archer (and a "stacking" interpretation of the Adjust for Range bonus) most of these will hit. In short, you'll be able to oneshot pretty much anything you might encounter.

Here is the link with the full description:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10783653&postcount=77

You can also stack on Raging Mongoose (you can't pick it up as a maneuver but you can pick up the prerequisites and use a Tiger Claw Item for it), Moment of Prescience and even WRT if DM rules you can use it on yourself on your turn. Also, if you get a natural attack through e.g. Fanged Mask you can do a full ranged attack followed by a natural attack (melee attack) and refresh your maneuvers.

Of course, craploads of arrows synergizes amazingly well with Eternal Training (the Int to Damage/Hit part) and Knowledge Devotion goes great with Eternal Knowledge AND a lot of attacks so it all comes together quite nicely. Eternal Training can also be used to use a second Time Stands Still after the first one is expended instead of the Int to Damage/Hit part

As a bonus, the build has pretty solid stand-up combat capability (which you can further optimize with a feat or two, e.g. Shock Trooper) with Eternal Training opening up the whole Diamond Mind and you having a Quarterstaff weapon easily accessible and slot for Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion (and potentially Eternal Training) applying to melee attacks as well. He's also already maxed out on Strength.

Note that this build is done without Flaws, let alone Chaos Shuffling your racial proficiencies or whatever. It also goes for Ranged Weapon Mastery which is far from necessary (especially if you want to be competent at range and in melee both, as I envision every proper Elf warrior being); basically, it's fairly tunable. And of course, Ranger-levels give it some nice skills in stuff like Hide, Spot, etc. - the Elfy stuff you'd expect from an Eternal Blade (and the class spectacularly fails to deliver on that front, of course).

Darrin

2013-10-26, 07:45 PM

I will say, however, that ranged combat is out. I don't see an Eternal Blade archer build fitting in here.

Race: Snow Elf
1) Ranger 1. Feat: PB Shot. Bonus: Track -> Trap Expert ACF.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Barbarian 1. Feat: Precise Shot. Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: WF Longbow.
5) Warblade 1.
6) Warblade 2. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Warblade 3.
8) Warblade 4.
9) Warblade 5. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (CWar). Bonus: Improved Initiative.
10) Warblade 6.
11) Eternal Blade 1.
12) Eternal Blade 2. Feat: Improved Precise Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3.
14) Eternal Blade 4.
15) Eternal Blade 5. Feat: Sudden Recovery
16) Eternal Blade 6.
17) Eternal Blade 7.
18) Eternal Blade 8. Feat: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
19) Eternal Blade 9.
20) Eternal Blade 10.

Maneuvers:
WB1: Wall of Blades, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Bolstering Voice
WB2: Moment of Perfect Mind
WB3: White Raven Tactics.
WB4: Pearl of Black Doubt [Stance]
WB5: Fountain of Blood
WB6: Replace Wolf Fang Strike -> Lion's Roar
EB1: [S]Dancing Mongoose. [Edit] Iron Heart Surge
EB3: Order Forged From Chaos
EB5: Quicksilver Motion, Giant's Stance or Hearing the Air
EB7: [S]Raging Mongoose [Edit] Diamond Defense
EB8: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
EB9: Time Stands Still

Make It Rain

Full Attack: 6 attacks = 4 iteratives + 1 (Rapid Shot) + 1 (Whirling Frenzy)

Turn 1: 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics. Immediate -> Island in Time.
Turn 2 (IiT): 6 attacks, Refresh maneuvers.
Turn 3 (WRT1): 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics.
Turn 4 (WRT2): 12 attacks, Swift -> Sudden Recovery to get Time Stands Still

Total: 42 attacks.

If we add in haste... then we can get 49 attacks, I think? And that's without Splitting, which could get us up to 98 attacks. Hmm. Wish I could fit Raging Mongoose in there somewhere.

Turn 1: 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics.
Turn 2 (WRT): 12 attacks, Sudden Recovery -> Time Stands Still.
Turn 3 (IiT): 12 attacks, Eternal Training -> Time Stands Still.

Total: 36 attacks. 72 with Splitting.

Snowbluff

2013-10-26, 07:47 PM

Snow elf is best elf.

Red Fel

2013-10-26, 07:56 PM

I don't think there's any way for an elf to get all four feats before 7 without fighter...which kinda sucks.

You could replace the swashbuckler level with a fighter level to take it, but then you're stuck without weapon finesse until the CoCL bonus feat...which makes this hard to play from 1-7.

Sadly, none of the CoCL prereq feats are warblade bonus feats.

Hmm. See, this is a big problem, because now I'm all excited about a CoCL + EB build. I suppose maybe if we did flaws, I could get that extra feat... Let's say I did that, how would you spin it?

I think I found the original post, there's not a real synergy beyond "craploads of arrows when it's not your turn", but it does allow you to interrupt a caster running the Contingency:Celerity routine.
Between Time Stands Still, Rapid Shot, a Haste effect and a Splitting bow, you get off 24 arrows in this round. With Woodland Archer (and a "stacking" interpretation of the Adjust for Range bonus) most of these will hit. In short, you'll be able to oneshot pretty much anything you might encounter.

Here is the link with the full description:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10783653&postcount=77

You can also stack on Raging Mongoose (you can't pick it up as a maneuver but you can pick up the prerequisites and use a Tiger Claw Item for it), Moment of Prescience and even WRT if DM rules you can use it on yourself on your turn. Also, if you get a natural attack through e.g. Fanged Mask you can do a full ranged attack followed by a natural attack (melee attack) and refresh your maneuvers.

Of course, craploads of arrows synergizes amazingly well with Eternal Training (the Int to Damage/Hit part) and Knowledge Devotion goes great with Eternal Knowledge AND a lot of attacks so it all comes together quite nicely. Eternal Training can also be used to use a second Time Stands Still after the first one is expended instead of the Int to Damage/Hit part

As a bonus, the build has pretty solid stand-up combat capability (which you can further optimize with a feat or two, e.g. Shock Trooper) with Eternal Training opening up the whole Diamond Mind and you having a Quarterstaff weapon easily accessible and slot for Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion (and potentially Eternal Training) applying to melee attacks as well. He's also already maxed out on Strength.

Note that this build is done without Flaws, let alone Chaos Shuffling your racial proficiencies or whatever. It also goes for Ranged Weapon Mastery which is far from necessary (especially if you want to be competent at range and in melee both, as I envision every proper Elf warrior being); basically, it's fairly tunable. And of course, Ranger-levels give it some nice skills in stuff like Hide, Spot, etc. - the Elfy stuff you'd expect from an Eternal Blade (and the class spectacularly fails to deliver on that front, of course).

Race: Snow Elf
1) Ranger 1. Feat: PB Shot. Bonus: Track -> Trap Expert ACF.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Barbarian 1. Feat: Precise Shot. Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: WF Longbow.
5) Warblade 1.
6) Warblade 2. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Warblade 3.
8) Warblade 4.
9) Warblade 5. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (CWar). Bonus: Improved Initiative.
10) Warblade 6.
11) Eternal Blade 1.
12) Eternal Blade 2. Feat: Improved Precise Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3.
14) Eternal Blade 4.
15) Eternal Blade 5. Feat: Sudden Recovery
16) Eternal Blade 6.
17) Eternal Blade 7.
18) Eternal Blade 8. Feat: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
19) Eternal Blade 9.
20) Eternal Blade 10.

Maneuvers:
WB1: Wall of Blades, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Bolstering Voice [Stance]
WB2: Moment of Perfect Mind
WB3: White Raven Tactics.
WB4: Pearl of Black Doubt [Stance]
WB5: Fountain of Blood
WB6: Replace Wolf Fang Strike -> Lion's Roar or Covering Strike
EB1: Dancing Mongoose.
EB3: Order Forged From Chaos
EB5: Quicksilver Motion, Giant's Stance or Hearing the Air [Stance]
EB7: Raging Mongoose
EB8: Martial Stance -> Stance of Alacrity
EB9: Time Stands Still

Make It Rain

Full Attack: 6 attacks = 4 iteratives + 1 (Rapid Shot) + 1 (Whirling Frenzy)

Turn 1: 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics. Immediate -> Island in Time.
Turn 2 (IiT): 6 attacks, Refresh maneuvers.
Turn 3 (WRT1): 12 attacks, Time Stands Still. Swift -> White Raven Tactics.
Turn 4 (WRT2): 12 attacks, Swift -> Sudden Recovery to get Time Stands Still

Total: 42 attacks.

If we add in haste... then we can get 49 attacks, I think? And that's without Splitting, which could get us up to 98 attacks. Hmm. Wish I could fit Raging Mongoose in there somewhere.

Ooh. Wow. Huh.

Yeah, that looks like it would hurt things... a lot. Wow. Yeah, that's more than slightly offensive.

Seriously, I don't have words. That's sick.

However, as I previously stated, I want this build to be a melee build. And while I appreciate that Warblade lets me swap out melee weapon feats for ranged ones, the rest of the feat selections are singularly optimized for ranged combat. I love the build, but it's just not what I'm looking for.

Snow elf is best elf.

It's true! Cha is a great dump stat.

I totally want to be the party face with Cha as a dump stat. This is a thing I want to do.

Me: "I roll diplomacy."
DM: "... Why did you just put your die on the table, with the 1 on top?"
Me: "HEY! HEY FAT FACE! HEY, WHY IS YOUR FACE SO FAT?"
DM: "... Roll initiative."

Talya

2013-10-26, 11:53 PM

Hmm. See, this is a big problem, because now I'm all excited about a CoCL + EB build. I suppose maybe if we did flaws, I could get that extra feat... Let's say I did that, how would you spin it?

With flaws? Then it's easy.

Flaw 1 (probably Shaky)
Flaw 2 (the one that makes you claustrophobic)

(1) Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian
- Mounted Combat (F), Combat Expertise (F), Dodge
(2) Swashbuckler
- Weapon Finesse
(3) Warblade
- Improved Weapon Familiarity
(4) Warblade
(5) Warblade
(6) Warblade
- Wild Cohort/Leadership
(7) Warblade
- Improved Initiative (B)
(8) Champion of Corellon
- Weapon Focus (B)
(9) Champion of Corellon
- Power Attack
(10) Warblade
(12) Eternal Blade
- Leap Attack
(15) Eternal Blade
- Martial Study or Stance (IL 13 for a 7th level maneuver)
(18) Eternal Blade
- Martial Study or Stance (IL 16 for an 8th level maneuver)

Be careful with rage. I realized it's not something you want to use in every fight. You can't make concentration checks while raging, and your will save relies on them. That said, you get pounce out of the barbarian, which is worth it by itself, and if you're careful when you rage, whirling frenzy is good.

Darrin

2013-10-27, 06:54 AM

Ooh. Wow. Huh.

Yeah, that looks like it would hurt things... a lot. Wow. Yeah, that's more than slightly offensive.

Seriously, I don't have words. That's sick.

Dagnabbit. Doesn't quite work. Island in Time uses an immediate action, which burns your next swift action, so there's no swift available to refresh maneuvers. Hmmm. Can't get RKV or Synad in there.

Red Fel

2013-10-27, 07:57 AM

With flaws? Then it's easy.

Flaw 1 (probably Shaky)
Flaw 2 (the one that makes you claustrophobic)

(1) Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian
- Mounted Combat (F), Combat Expertise (F), Dodge
(2) Swashbuckler
- Weapon Finesse
(3) Warblade
- Improved Weapon Familiarity
(4) Warblade
(5) Warblade
(6) Warblade
- Wild Cohort/Leadership
(7) Warblade
- Improved Initiative (B)
(8) Champion of Corellon
- Weapon Focus (B)
(9) Champion of Corellon
- Power Attack
(10) Warblade
(12) Eternal Blade
- Leap Attack
(15) Eternal Blade
- Martial Study or Stance (IL 13 for a 7th level maneuver)
(18) Eternal Blade
- Martial Study or Stance (IL 16 for an 8th level maneuver)

Be careful with rage. I realized it's not something you want to use in every fight. You can't make concentration checks while raging, and your will save relies on them. That said, you get pounce out of the barbarian, which is worth it by itself, and if you're careful when you rage, whirling frenzy is good.

Okay. So explain again why we snuck the Barb in there - it's for Pounce, right? Whirling Frenzy for the dodge bonus and such during rage, Spirit Lion for Pounce?

Mechanically, I understand that. It kind of irks me that the character is an illiterate Grey Elf with anger issues who suddenly somehow becomes an iconic symbol of the Elven people - flavorwise that's a bit "hmm" - but Pounce is a pretty special thing to have on a melee beast. Hmm.

And this build assumes that IWF works for EWP qualification. I can dig it.

Short version? Me likey. Will update OP later today with this. Thanky!

Dagnabbit. Doesn't quite work. Island in Time uses an immediate action, which burns your next swift action, so there's no swift available to refresh maneuvers. Hmmm. Can't get RKV or Synad in there.

Umm... Okay?

Talya

2013-10-27, 10:05 AM

Okay. So explain again why we snuck the Barb in there - it's for Pounce, right? Whirling Frenzy for the dodge bonus and such during rage, Spirit Lion for Pounce?

Mechanically, I understand that. It kind of irks me that the character is an illiterate Grey Elf with anger issues who suddenly somehow becomes an iconic symbol of the Elven people - flavorwise that's a bit "hmm" - but Pounce is a pretty special thing to have on a melee beast. Hmm.

Take swashbuckler at 1, barb at 2 and it is never illiterate, and identical at every other level.

And this build assumes that IWF works for EWP qualification. I can dig it.

If it doesn't, replacing IWF with EWP only loses proficiency with two weapons you will likely never use.

Vaz

2013-10-27, 11:23 AM

I seem to remember a build from the old Optimizing boards: something like Half elf Lyrandar pilot knocking enemies into the air, then blowing them off the side of a ship, any which were left were murdered by an Island in Time Stands Still combo, or Avalanche of Blades with Stormguard Warrior and Storm Touch spell (10d6/attack? No save? Stun?).

If i remember correctly it went something like Warblade 4/Fighter 1/Storm Sentry 5/Eternal Blade 10.

Red Fel

2013-10-27, 02:20 PM

Take swashbuckler at 1, barb at 2 and it is never illiterate, and identical at every other level.

I can dig it.

If it doesn't, replacing IWF with EWP only loses proficiency with two weapons you will likely never use.

Actually, another point about this build occurs - I could take Weapon Focus (longsword) at level 3 instead of IWF or EWP, because Warblade lets me convert WF to any weapon I want. The other problem is that the bonus feat I get at CoCL 1 must be a fighter feat, and it must have Combat Expertise, Dodge, or Mounted Combat as a prereq - meaning I can't take Weapon Focus for that slot. So if I want to take it, why not take it earlier?

I seem to remember a build from the old Optimizing boards: something like Half elf Lyrandar pilot knocking enemies into the air, then blowing them off the side of a ship, any which were left were murdered by an Island in Time Stands Still combo, or Avalanche of Blades with Stormguard Warrior and Storm Touch spell (10d6/attack? No save? Stun?).

If i remember correctly it went something like Warblade 4/Fighter 1/Storm Sentry 5/Eternal Blade 10.

... You have my attention.

Eldariel

2013-10-27, 09:41 PM

Dagnabbit. Doesn't quite work. Island in Time uses an immediate action, which burns your next swift action, so there's no swift available to refresh maneuvers. Hmmm. Can't get RKV or Synad in there.

You can get 2 more arrows from Arrow Storm (Targeteer Fighter from Dragon). You also don't really need the feats like Manyshot & al. The only reason to even take PBS and Precise Shot is Splitting Bow.

You get prerequisiteless Rapid Shot from Ranger, which combined with Woodland Archer has all your bases covered. Knowledge Devotion in an Eternal Blade shell is also more effective than Improved Rapid Shot-type effects (happens to give damage too, and work with melee, and have no prerequisites; Eternal Knowledge covers most of it).

Also, Blood in the Water and Hunter's Sense are two of the best first level stance options (Leading the Charge is good too if you pick up Pounce). But yeah, you can't loop WRT with those actions; you need Chronotyryn or something for that. It's ultimately not necessary tho; you can hit 100 attacks with just 3 full-round actions if you use Eternal Training to pick up a new Time Stands Still after it's consumed (TSS -> WRT -> Eternal Training TSS -> IiT as swift action -> Sudden Recovery TSS or whatever; Sudden Recovery is kinda waste of feat tho).

Talya

2013-10-27, 10:10 PM

So if I want to take it, why not take it earlier?

It doesn't matter that much when you take it. The only one of those feats that's really decent is mounted combat, and then only if you take advantage of it.

Weapon Focus is a prerequisite, and it gives a marginal benefit -- perhaps more at level 1, sure take it then. At least you get the warm fuzzy feeling of using the warblade's class feature to move it to a big elven courtblade later.

Darrin

2013-10-28, 06:24 AM

You can get 2 more arrows from Arrow Storm (Targeteer Fighter from Dragon). You also don't really need the feats like Manyshot & al. The only reason to even take PBS and Precise Shot is Splitting Bow.

I put Manyshot in there (grudgingly) because I wanted Improved Rapid Shot. Precise Shot I find somewhat necessary because the rest of the party has this stupid habit of charging into melee before I can kill everything with arrows, and the Precision weapon enhancement is too expensive at lower levels. And yeah, there's the Splitting requirement. But Improved Rapid Shot and Improved Precise Shot were kinda just gravy.

Also, Blood in the Water and Hunter's Sense are two of the best first level stance options (Leading the Charge is good too if you pick up Pounce).

I've never been a big fan of Blood in the Water (I try to stay away from anything that requires a crit to function), and arrows are particularly bad at critting. On the other hand... with 98 attack rolls, there's a pretty good chance you'll get some crits there.

As far as Leading the Charge goes, I needed a prereq for WRT, and Bolstering Voice (+2 on Will saves) seemed like a better deal on a ranged build than charge + melee attack. Hunter's Sense... eh, just never cared for it much, but that's personal preference, and I was planning on taking Hearing the Air later.

But yeah, you can't loop WRT with those actions; you need Chronotyryn or something for that. It's ultimately not necessary tho; you can hit 100 attacks with just 3 full-round actions if you use Eternal Training to pick up a new Time Stands Still after it's consumed (TSS -> WRT -> Eternal Training TSS -> IiT as swift action -> Sudden Recovery TSS or whatever; Sudden Recovery is kinda waste of feat tho).

Aha, I was hoping someone could fix that. And yeah, Sudden Recovery is bit of a waste, but I needed it to get a more impressive Alpha Strike.

Eldariel

2013-10-28, 06:31 AM

I put Manyshot in there (grudgingly) because I wanted Improved Rapid Shot. Precise Shot I find somewhat necessary because the rest of the party has this stupid habit of charging into melee before I can kill everything with arrows, and the Precision weapon enhancement is too expensive at lower levels. And yeah, there's the Splitting requirement. But Improved Rapid Shot and Improved Precise Shot were kinda just gravy.

It's great on lower levels but higher up you can ramp your attack bonus so high you'll survive without Precise Shot just fine. Between Woodland Archer, Knowledge Devotion and e.g. Ranged Weapon Mastery it's not hard to hit ridiculous To Hit numbers.

I've never been a big fan of Blood in the Water (I try to stay away from anything that requires a crit to function), and arrows are particularly bad at critting. On the other hand... with 98 attack rolls, there's a pretty good chance you'll get some crits there.

You can get Keen Edge cast on your bow/arrows too, if you want to double it up. But yeah, BitW was just brought up 'cause it's the only stance that really increases ranged damage from TOB. I don't especially like it and indeed, I prefer Leading the Charge + Hunter's Sense. Being able to track is kinda convenient, as is being able to switch between melee at range with nearly no cost, and being able to make allied melee types that much more dangerous while at it.

As far as Leading the Charge goes, I needed a prereq for WRT, and Bolstering Voice (+2 on Will saves) seemed like a better deal on a ranged build than charge + melee attack. Hunter's Sense... eh, just never cared for it much, but that's personal preference, and I was planning on taking Hearing the Air later.

I personally always prefer having both, Hearing the Air and Hunter's Sense. Both are just extremely useful.

Hm, but should maybe make a separate thread for this if we want to continue this discussion; OP said he didn't want an archer after all.

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 08:39 AM

It doesn't matter that much when you take it. The only one of those feats that's really decent is mounted combat, and then only if you take advantage of it.

Weapon Focus is a prerequisite, and it gives a marginal benefit -- perhaps more at level 1, sure take it then. At least you get the warm fuzzy feeling of using the warblade's class feature to move it to a big elven courtblade later.

Hmm... I don't have the stats or availability for Thinblades or Courtblades in front of me, so I don't know how worthwhile an investment they are. I do know, however, that switching WF from a Longsword to a Courtblade is not prohibited under a RAW reading of the Warblade's ability. No proficiency is required in the new weapon, you simply have to have it available.

That said, it wouldn't help me if I'm not proficient in Courtblades in the first place. For that reason, I can see the logic in taking IWF over WF, assuming that Courtblades (or Thinblades!) are that much better than ordinary martial weapons.

With regard to flaws, having looked over them, I like Shaky - it explains why an epitome of elvenkind wouldn't be using a ranged weapon - but I'm not a fan of Claustrophobic. Becoming Shaken anytime I enter an area 10'x10' or smaller just seems counterproductive. But I can probably find some good ones.

Perhaps Elven Pride of Arms from DM 328. -4 to any attack made with non-Elf weapons makes a lot of sense for this character. And it wouldn't be a stretch to extend the non-penalty to include the Thinblade and Courtblade. Alternatively, perhaps Glory-Hound (-2 AC until you drop an opponent), which is fine if my character is built to charge in and get a quick kill. Yet another easy option, similar to EPA above, is Pride of Arms from DM 324, which gives -4 to any attack made with simple or exotic weapons, unarmed or touch attacks. Fine for a martial combatant anyway.

Talya

2013-10-28, 08:50 AM

Snowbluff

2013-10-28, 08:58 AM

You can actually Power Attack with a Rapier in 2 hands, you just can't get 1.5 times your Str from it.

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 08:58 AM

Thinblades are marginally better finessable longswords, not worth a feat. The main advantage of courtblades is they are finessable two handers. (1d10 damage, 18-20/x2 threat range. The only other finessable two hander I know of is the Spiked Chain.) So they get to take full advantage of power attack/leap attack while still functioning on a dex-focused build.

So, in other words, I get a larger dice size, and I can add my (more sizeable) Dex instead of Strength... I like it. You've sold me on that. IWF is definitely worth more overall than the WF (longsword).

But here's a thought. Which would be worth more: the extra Dex bonuses from Swashbuckler and CoCL, or a 9th-level maneuver acquired through Eternal Training? Because if we accept that 9th-levels are completely off the table, instead of only partially off the table, the floor opens up substantially. For example, Swashbuckler 1/ Barbarian 1/ Swashbuckler +2/ Warblade 3/ CoCL 3/ EB 10 becomes possible, giving an IL of only 16 at level 20 (8th-level maneuvers through Eternal Training), because we've accepted the loss of 9th levels. It gives all those lovely Dex benefits. My question to you is: Is it worth the loss?

Talya

2013-10-28, 09:04 AM

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 09:11 AM

Well, like you, I'm attached to CoCL for the flavor, but it really doesn't add enough for its cost. With or without flaws, all it's really giving you is a bonus feat and dex to damage, at a cost of four feats.

Now, dex to damage is really sweet for this character, but it's only marginally better than Int to damage, which swashbuckler can get you with no feat cost at all. It's two levels for either of them.

I'm inclined to value the warblade levels above getting an extra few points of damage per hit. However... CoCL just fits so nicely into the flavor, and if you really pump up the dexterity into the stratosphere, it will definitely be noticeable.

Well, it seems either way, I'm going to be relying on Int for my Warblade and Eternal Blade levels. I also get Int bonuses from Swashbuckler.

Right now, despite flavor, CoCL is the only element of this build substantially adding to MAD. In the absence of CoCL, it's a fairly SAD build - emphasis on Int, with some minor Str, Dex and Con for basic combat utility. CoCL throws in Cha at first level, Dex at second level, and reduced Dex penalty at third level. It's a minor, cosmetic boost. It also gives me a bonus feat (based off of one of the tax feats).

Do I love it for flavor? Oh, yes. Nothing says "Champion of Elvenkind" like a combination of CoCL and EB. You hit the nail on the head with this build in terms of flavor.

The question, then, is whether that flavor is worth the feat taxes and the MAD. Or, more quantifiably: How much of a mechanical improvement could we work into this build if we removed CoCL? And then, having an optimal comparison both with and without CoCL, the question is whether the delta is worth the loss in flavor.

So let's take that Swash 1/ Barb 1/ Swash +2/ Wbl 3/ CoCL 3/ EB 10 build, and compare it with something that loses the CoCL levels in favor of something else - say, more levels of Wbl or Swash (or both). What do I gain?

Talya

2013-10-28, 09:15 AM

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 09:38 AM

Well, you can build a Swash 3/Barb 1/Warblade 6/EB 10 that focuses on that STILL gets dex and int to damage. It still requires three more feats* to get there, but they are much better feats. It also requires you use a spiked chain instead of the courtblade. Trade away the threat range for reach is a good trade, I think.

* - Martial Study (Shadow hand maneuver...I recommend a high level swift action teleport which stupidly has no prerequisites), Martial Stance (Shadow hand stance of your choice), Shadow Blade. Switch the IWF for EWP Spiked Chain, which is a shadow hand favored weapon. If you've got flaws, a lot of this can come online early, but i'd wait on the martial study/martial stance until you can grab the highest level Shadow Hand teleport.

Hmm. While Spiked Chain has less elf-flavor than Courtblade, it's definitely more versatile. Getting the benefit from Shadow Blade is a nice touch, although that bonus only applies while in a Shadow Hand stance - it'd have to be a good one to make me give up on some of the other stances available to me, all for that Dex-to-damage bit.

But on the other end of the spectrum, this guarantees me Time Stands Still at EB 9! With 6 levels of Wbl in the build, that puts me at precisely IL 17 at level 19 (IL 2 from Swash + Barb, IL 6 from Wbl, IL 9 from EB 9, total 17), which is my last chance to legitimately pick up a new maneuver. This also means I can refresh it, and have access to my Time Stands Still + Island in Time nova every encounter. And with a Spiked Chain, I can load on the damage fairly comfortably, can't I?

All we're really sacrificing... is flavor. Drat.

UPDATE: Okay, here's a question. Let's assume I find trip and disarm mechanics infuriating. Would Spiked Chain still be better than Courtblade (for the reach), or would Courtblade's higher damage die now be superior?

Red Fel

2013-10-28, 08:44 PM

OP updated! Builds posted! Exclamations marked!

RaviStrife

2013-10-28, 09:05 PM

Came expecting to see Tippy breaking the universe on a whim.

Left pleasantly delighted at the first legitimate ranged TOB build I've seen.

Bravo!

Zweisteine

2013-10-28, 09:43 PM

I might post my build, if I have the time. It's a very simple, very standard Warblade entry route. Probably nothing special about it at all...

Talya

2013-10-28, 10:23 PM

UPDATE: Okay, here's a question. Let's assume I find trip and disarm mechanics infuriating. Would Spiked Chain still be better than Courtblade (for the reach), or would Courtblade's higher damage die now be superior?

What higher damage die? 2d4 is a half point different that 1d10. The crit threat range is the only difference.

Zweisteine

2013-10-29, 05:22 AM

You know what's more fun than a courtblade? A fullblade!

Sure, it'll end up as a rather wasted feat at higher levels, but it's quite OP to start.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 06:23 AM

What higher damage die? 2d4 is a half point different that 1d10. The crit threat range is the only difference.

Good point. It just feels weird, a swordsman who represents the elvish legacy using a spiked chain instead of something... elegant.

Talya

2013-10-29, 06:37 AM

Agreed... the courtblade feels more appropriate.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 06:40 AM

Agreed... the courtblade feels more appropriate.

So, any comments, suggestions? Is the build still missing anything important?

I decided against Shadow Blade for much the same reason as I ditched the Spiked Chain (Shadow Hand stances just aren't doing it for me). I went instead with Ironheart Aura/ Stormguard Warrior, because, as I mentioned, exploding cheese.

But is there something I should have done, perhaps?

Talya

2013-10-29, 08:37 AM

Not that I can think of off the top of my head.

If you end up with a spare feat or two, I'd still take martial study for that shadow hand swift action teleport.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 08:44 AM

Not that I can think of off the top of my head.

If you end up with a spare feat or two, I'd still take martial study for that shadow hand swift action teleport.

It's already in there. Because I really liked that idea. Pounce AND a Swift Action teleport? Juicy combo. Good for either/or scenarios.

Thanks!

Vaz

2013-10-29, 08:46 AM

Telflammar Shadowlord funzies there as well.

(Pounce, Swift Action Teleport, Pounce again).

Talya

2013-10-29, 09:50 AM

Red Fel - I was wrong! Don't take Improved Weapon Familiarity to get courtblade proficiency.

The warblade is the one class that probably should take Exotic Weapon Proficiency instead... because weapon aptitude lets them swap it out for any other EWP on a day's notice.

Red Fel

2013-10-29, 09:51 AM