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View Full Version : Talent-based "Magic" - what Tier? [PEACH]



Eulalios
2013-10-26, 08:48 AM
What if there were a class that only had access to core rules cantrips and 1st level spells, only in specific groups, one group per level, (level)d6 times per day, combinable and stackable?

ODD ONE OUT
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COMMON TO ALL
Detect Magic
Erase
Read Magic
Write

KNOWLEDGE, COMMUNICATION, AND CONCEALMENT
Comprehend ---
Conceal ---
Darkness
Detect ---
Find Familiar
Identify
Invisibility to ---
Light
Locate ---
Magic Aura
Message
Obscuring Mist
Pass Without Trace
Predict ---
Silence
Speak ---
Speak with Animals
Ventriloquism

PROTECTIVE AND CURATIVE
Alarm
Cure Light Wounds
Darkness
Endure ---
Entropic Shield
Feather Fall
Gaze Reflection
Hide from Undead
Hold Portal
Light
Magic Mouth
Obscuring Mist
Protection From ---
Purify ---
Remove ---
Resist ---
Resistance
Sanctuary
Shield
Wall of Fog

MIND MAGIC
Animal Friendship
Bane
Bless
Cause Emotion
Command
Charm Person
Daze
Friends
Guidance
Hideous Laughter
Hypnotism
Lesser Confusion
Lullaby
Sleep
Virtue

PHANTASMAL
Audible Glamour
Alarm
Change Self
Colour Spray
Create Water
Dancing Lights
Faerie Fire
Flare
Light
Magic Aura
Magic Mouth
Obscure Object
Silent Image
Phantasmal Force

MOVEMENT, FORCE, AND ENERGY
Affect Normal Fires
Burning Hands
Entangle
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Grease
Jump
Light
Magic Missile
Mending
Push
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Spider Climb
Unseen Servant

Eulalios
2013-10-26, 12:08 PM
I think I would mod duration on all the above to be "Concentration," and let the caster maintain concentration on as many as (caster level) spells simultaneously - with usual checks for losing concentration.

Epsilon Rose
2013-10-27, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure if that would make for a fun or viable class. Especially at higher levels. All of your numeric effects (saves, damage, targets, anything) are going to be really low and your missing a lot of really important utility.

Just to Browse
2013-10-28, 12:15 AM
What does "stackable" mean? If it means you can cast 2 sleep spells to make it affect 8HD targets and the like, then it's still broken with game-winning SoDs and RNG-breaking buffs (resistance, magic weapon, etc.) Still winning fights at level 1 with color spray.

If "stackable" means you can... cast multiple at a time or something... then it's still broken at low levels and falls off harder than a fighter.

(Level)d6 spells per day is a bad mechanic, which will occasionally screw players and occasionally let them overshadow their peers even more. Just create a standard baseline.

NichG
2013-10-28, 04:41 AM
Based on the spell list, I see you mean the 1st level spells from 2ed D&D and earlier. Might be an important point to mention since many of them have very different mechanics, to the tune of 'no save, just die'.

But basically I agree with Just to Browse - this will start very powerful compared to its peers and fall off very quickly. Its hard to say that it would have any sort of consistent Tier across the levels though at high levels I'd say it probably sits around a weird Tier 6/Tier 4 hybrid (Tier 6 is 'it is bad at its main competency', but higher tiers are generally driven by versatility, which this actually has more of than many Tier 3 classes due to basically being able to do all its stuff pretty much at-will)

Eulalios
2013-10-28, 06:50 AM
One tricky part that is not-trad-D&D, is the ability to combine and stack the different spells. e.g. cast an Unseen Servant that can heft a troll, combo'd with two Floating Disks, which then collapse together ... squishy.


What does "stackable" mean? If it means you can cast 2 sleep spells to make it affect 8HD targets and the like, then it's still broken with game-winning SoDs and RNG-breaking buffs (resistance, magic weapon, etc.) Still winning fights at level 1 with color spray.

Yeah, that's what I meant.


(Level)d6 spells per day is a bad mechanic, which will occasionally screw players and occasionally let them overshadow their peers even more. Just create a standard baseline.

Good point. However, the #spells per day will converge increasingly strongly toward an average value (http://rpgmechanics.blogspot.com/2010/08/scaling-of-standard-deviation-of-n-for.html) as level increases - std dev for 2d6 is roughly 5-9, std dev for 3d6 is roughly 9-12, etc. i.e. Chance of falling outside std dev diminishes with level; level 20 would have 70 +/- (small number) spells per day.