How much stronger should a BBEG be?

[G.Cube]

In a campaign Im running I want to have a BBEG that the party encountets a few times over the course of the campain, I also want this to be an NPC that the players respect, if not fear. So, how much higher a level should this character have at any given encounter over the npcs?

[Crake]

In a campaign Im running I want to have a BBEG that the party encountets a few times over the course of the campain, I also want this to be an NPC that the players respect, if not fear. So, how much higher a level should this character have at any given encounter over the npcs?

Two or three levels, plus some minions ought to put him in the fear zone

[Jormengand]

In a campaign Im running I want to have a BBEG that the party encountets a few times over the course of the campain, I also want this to be an NPC that the players respect, if not fear. So, how much higher a level should this character have at any given encounter over the npcs?

Assuming you mean "Over the PCs" he should consistently have a CR two higher than the PCs' average party level - this usually means he should be 2 levels higher than them. However, if he appears with minions the entire encounter should only have a CR 2 higher than the PCs'


Two or three levels, plus some minions ought to put him in the fear zone
That would be a CR about 2-4 higher than the PCs APL. A CR of 4 higher would likely annihilate them.

[Scumbaggery]

In a campaign Im running I want to have a BBEG that the party encountets a few times over the course of the campain, I also want this to be an NPC that the players respect, if not fear. So, how much higher a level should this character have at any given encounter over the npcs?

Depends on what said BBEG is capable of doing. If he's a spellcaster, he could be the same level and simply have a million and a half tricks up his sleeve.

If he's a rogue, have him set traps to confound and mess with the party.

If he is a melee guy, make him control armies through an iron fist. Level is irrelevant if you can outsmart the action economy.

[Blackhawk748]

That would be a CR about 2-4 higher than the PCs APL. A CR of 4 higher would likely annihilate them.

In my experience, a CR of 4 higher than the party is perfect for the BBEG, considering my players are fully capable of taking that on, and they know it.

So ya, have some minions with him and put him about 2 levels above the party, on average, and you should be good. Dont forget to give him good equipment.

[CyberThread]

you can really enhance a BBEG with the right combat area for them. If they are non magical and beefy fighter type, squuze everyone into a small room , if a spell caster give it beefy guards, and areas to block line of sight, so it can't be killed off instantly from an arrow or ray spell.



For a low level adventure, I use to have mirrors set up in a room, with high wall, and the low level hench casters, woudl look up at the mirriors, and cast magic missle, when they saw someone in a mirror, so it would auto hit.


Took them 5 rounds until they got the smart idea to shoot the mirriors and break them.

[Pigkappa]

This depends a lot on how optimized the party is and on how likely you want it to be for someone in the party to die during the encounter. I don't think an answer like (usual CR + X) can solve your dilemma.

[MrNobody]

I think that for a recurring BBEG should be ok to have a CR from 4 to 7 higher than the group, depending on the level of the group itself. 4 for low level party, 5-6 for medium, 7 for high.
You can go even higher if you want the kind of enemy that can easily erase the group from existance but for mercy/fun he just play with them a little, claim a casual victim and disappears till the next encounter.
Just don't go over the 9 CR difference... it's the point beyond which MDM stops considering "regular" EXP awards in battle, so I consider it the highest difference possible.

[Red Fel]

First rule of BBEGs: Fight smarter, not harder.

Ideally, you want the PCs' earliest encounters with the BBEG to be non-combat (or at least, not fighting the BBEG himself), because there's always the chance that the PCs will accidentally kill him - and there goes your villain - unless you fiat away his death. (ProTip: Fiating away the premature death of a BBEG isn't a popular option.)

As others have suggested, using minions or traps is an excellent idea. You may even have him sling a few spells, arrows, or psionics to make the fight a bit tougher, although he should never get close to melee range. Letting him monologue while the PCs try to fight their way through his protections, only for him to slip away at the last moment, will further give the PCs reason to hate his filthy guts.

But especially at lower levels, before a BBEG has adequate control of the action economy, there's a very good chance of accidental squishing by overzealous PCs. If you want this BBEG to be a recurring villain and don't want to have to fiat away his death, focus less on his "power" and more on scenarios that offer him no personal risk.

[Zanos]

I think that for a recurring BBEG should be ok to have a CR from 4 to 7 higher than the group, depending on the level of the group itself. 4 for low level party, 5-6 for medium, 7 for high.
You can go even higher if you want the kind of enemy that can easily erase the group from existance but for mercy/fun he just play with them a little, claim a casual victim and disappears till the next encounter.
Just don't go over the 9 CR difference... it's the point beyond which MDM stops considering "regular" EXP awards in battle, so I consider it the highest difference possible.
+7 CR is more appropriate for individuals that serve the purpose of reminding the PC's that they are not(yet) the largest fish in the pond, and that there are still circumstances under which they should tread lightly. I would not expect anyone in the party to survive an appropriately tuned CR +7 encounter, barring extreme optimization or immediately teleporting out.

+2~4 CR seems about right if you want the PC's to have a reasonable chance of winning while still having a hard time.

[NeoPhoenix0]

A real EL (party level+4) encounter whould take up about 80% of party resources. Resources are health, spells slots, and other stuff along similar lines. It can also be less than 80% if the encounter is fragile, but has strong attacks. likely almost killing or killing one or two party members before falling apart.

EL (party level+5) is the sweet spot for life and death battles. Those are suggested for boss fights in horror campaigns were the party is supposed to have a decent chance of dying.it is supposed to use approximately 100% party resources.

I wouldn't make his encounters any less than party level+3. Otherwise he has a reasonable chance of dying or worse, not being taken seriously.

A lot of this depends on weather he is tailoring the fights to counter the PCs or not.

Also, he should be even stronger if you plan on having him leave before seriously trying to kill the PCs. CR +6-7 is a good place to start. It gives the players a goal to reach so they can fight him without dying.

[G.Cube]

So, generally, one PC class level on the BBEG increases his CR by how much?

[NeoPhoenix0]

1 PC class level is supposed to be +1 CR. But this breaks down if the class level doesn't go well with the rest of his build.

[Blackhawk748]

1 generally, but only if it meshes well. Example:

a 3 lvl Ogre Sorcerer, would just have the CR of 4 because the class doesnt play to his strengths, so his Cr goes up by 1/3.

Now if that same ogre is a 3rd lvl barbarian he would be CR 6 because that does play to his Strengths.

Edit: Partially Rogued

[Keneth]

Seeing as CR is a pointless number, especially when classes are taken into account, any answer of APL+X is likewise pointless. An appropriately challenging BBEG should be strong enough that a direct encounter should result in significant resource expenditure and a reasonably high likelihood of at least some party deaths. This is usually hard to achieve with a single NPC as you quickly reach the point where they can one-shot a PC while being barely tough enough to last a round or two, so if the BBEG is a plain character, it's better if he has allies with him. Beyond that, just go with your gut. Each party is different, and a powerful adversary for some is a joke to others, even if they're the same level or even the same set of classes.

[BrokenChord]

By RAW, one class level increases CR by one, or 1/2 if it's a class that is considered unaligned to the race (for example, 18 cleric levels on that frost giant bumps the CR by 9).

In practice, though, every class level makes the fight significantly harder.

[lunar2]

no matter how strong he is, make sure he's got proper defenses against Save or Lose spells. nothing hurts a campaign worse than your 16th level bbeg fighter getting ganked by a 7th level party with hold person in its repertoire.

note that this particular example was due to preemptive action on the part of the party, not a planned combat encounter. derailed the whole campaign.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't say CR is pointless - just take it for what it is, a ballpark figure rather than encounter gospel.

If you're not sure how easy or hard a fight is going to be, a nice strategy is to design the encounter with "outs" - ways that the PCs, or the BBEG himself, can escape if things go belly-up. This is particularly useful at lower levels when the PCs or even your villain might not be able to simply teleport/plane shift away.

[Jormengand]

In my experience, a CR of 4 higher than the party is perfect for the BBEG, considering my players are fully capable of taking that on, and they know it.

So ya, have some minions with him and put him about 2 levels above the party, on average, and you should be good. Dont forget to give him good equipment.

Well, I'm assuming the party to be fairly normal. If they're Tippymised and you're using the WotC sample characters, then a CR of about 10 higher would probably be good...

[Keneth]

Well, I'm assuming the party to be fairly normal.

What's normal? I'm pretty sure everyone draws a different line.

[Jormengand]

What's normal? I'm pretty sure everyone draws a different line.

Not abusing rules horribly, having a character who isn't just a statblock and *gasp* possibly even doing things that fit their character concept!

[Keneth]

Not abusing rules horribly, having a character who isn't just a statblock and *gasp* possibly even doing things that fit their character concept!

That still encapsulates an enormous amount of different power levels.

Also, inb4 geometry jokes about normals and drawing lines. :smallbiggrin:

[BrokenChord]

Not abusing rules horribly, having a character who isn't just a statblock and *gasp* possibly even doing things that fit their character concept!

To be fair, "most powerful ____" counts as a concept. Perhaps not a legitimate RP concept, but believe it or not, there are people who play roleplaying games without wanting to roleplay.

[Jormengand]

believe it or not, there are people who play roleplaying games without wanting to roleplay.

I know. I've played arena-style games, but even things with a cheese-stopping list as long as the Test of Spite's tend to end in one round - literally, it comes down to who won initiative and who can kill the enemy when it's not their turn.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anywhere from four or more CR weaker than the party to 20 or so CR above the party.

A BBEG isn't the BBEG because he is a bruiser in a fight. He has minions, followers, and lieutenants for that. A BBEG holds that position because he is the driving will behind a given plan.

One of the most memorable and difficult BBEG's that I set in opposition to the PC's was a 9th level Wizard. He had a Simulacrum of a Solar from a scroll and used it to Wish up one for a Paeliryon. Using his ability to cast Telepathic Bond, his Solar's ability to make those bonds permanent, and his Paeliryon's ability to polymorph, greater teleport, and use Mind Blank at will the wizard had become the D&D version of the Shadowbroker. Thousands of spies and agent's across the world, all protected by Mindblank thanks to the Paeliryon, all in constant and untraceable contact, and many with deeply rooted loyalty compulsions in their mind thanks to Charm + Hypnotism.

This wizard was one of the greatest powers in the world. He could and did orchestrate major wars and the downfall (or rise) of entire empire's. It took the PC's 15 levels to become aware that some such organization or entity actually existed and they didn't actually realize that it was a mere ECL 9 wizard until they finally located and engaged him when they were ECL 18. It was the challenges that the PC's had to fight through to get to the BBEG that were difficult, not the final fight its self.

----
If you want the big thematic final fight then anywhere from CR+0 to CR+7 works depending upon optimization, environment, items, preparedness, party ECL, and a dozen other factors.

[Story]

Also it's easy to justify anything if you want to. For example, in a setting where magical research facilities are a thing, it's safe to assume that most spells are known along with an approximate idea of their effects. Which means that you'd have to be stupid not to pick the best spells, and Wizards are known for their superhuman intelligence more than anything.

I know if I were risking my life on a daily basis, I'd do my best to minimize the risks. Trying to be fair and sporting just leaves you dead.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Not abusing rules horribly, having a character who isn't just a statblock and *gasp* possibly even doing things that fit their character concept!

I had an elf, who was a low level sorcerer. He was an outcast and wanted to protect his friends. He did so by burning the town down. He did this with several castings of a level 1 spell and a cantrip.

Power has nothing little to do with optimization level, statblocks, or abusing the rules. The greatest power in dnd is applying the rules as intended in ways that were never expected.

[Ortesk]

Basically what tippy said. I've ran BBEG as cr +8 above party level, and i've ran them as CR 10 lower than the party. One fight i had was a Nymph who had Ogres at her command, The ogres were all CR 3 less than the group, but 2 were Crusaders who were trippers and 2 were Clerics and then the nymph was there. CR 7 Nymph, 4 CR 11 Ogres, whipped a 15th level part badly. It was a memorable fight becuase they fought well, they used tactics, and they didnt fight on the PC's terms

[ericgrau]

Usually EL = party level + 2 is a good idea, and 4 is a TPK risk, including minions. Yeah optimization can stretch how much the party can handle and circumstances including player preparation for him vary too, but at least that's a starting point.

[Jormengand]

I had an elf, who was a low level sorcerer. He was an outcast and wanted to protect his friends. He did so by burning the town down. He did this with several castings of a level 1 spell and a cantrip.

Power has nothing to do with optimization level, statblocks, or abusing the rules. The greatest power in dnd is applying the rules as intended in ways that were never expected.

Burning hands and spark, by any chance? Spark is specifically designed to set objects, including houses, on fire. Burning hands does not, in fact, do enough damage to burn wood (but then neither does normal fire, so there's that) but it's easy to see how you could burn down a town...

But a town doesn't have a CR. The people in the town would probably have a high enough CR to kill you, and I doubt they would all have died in the fire. One wonders how this particular character escaped alive other than simply passing his CON checks to keep running.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Actually, the spells were benign transposition with a raven familiar so he could escape. (At the level he was at if he had a different familiar, it probably wouldn't have understood him.) The other spell was prestidigitation for some stupid little things. He lit buildings on fire with torches. A commoner might have been able to have done it.

The entire thing was a ploy to escape an army of fish people (can't remember the creature).

Maybe an issue here is how I measure power. One big thing is what can the character live through.

[Angelalex242]

Depends on the type of evil guy.

If he's a 'video game villain final boss' type, then he probably needs lots of CR on the party.

If he's Lex Luthor, he doesn't need much CR at all.