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Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 01:19 AM
It seems to me that gamers in general agree that paladins are in sever need of a "capstone" ability at level 20, but all I seem to have heard thus far is

"Too bad about that huh? Oh and Arilon, nice smites per day. What? Yes, I am enjoying my new life as a lawful outsider as a matter of fact."


...which is really quite unlike the people I've met on this forum. Alright now, I'll do my best to get the momentum rolling, and let's see what comes of it in the end, eh? Here are my prototypes.

Chosen Servant (Ex): You have served your deity as an exceptional servant beyond the span of all but a few, earning favour in her eyes and becoming closer to her in nature. All weapons you hold are considered aligned to reflect both facets of your deity's alignment.

Divine Companion (Sp): Having proven yourself a loyal and faithful servant of your deity, you have been granted a creature of her realm to aid you in your tasks. Your special mount acquires the Celestial template and gains a fly equal to its base land speed, or increases it's maneuverability by one category if it already possesses one, as well as gaining a +2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution scores. The mount is intelligent, even reckoned among humanoids, and conciously aids his partner when being ridden, granting a +5 circumstance bonus to Ride checks and granting the benefits of the Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-by Attack and Trample feats, but only when ridden by the character he was sent to aid. The mount also gains the following abilities
-Blinding Speed: Add 30 feet to your mount's base land speed, or fly speed if it is a flying steed to begin with.
-Greater Link: The emphatic link with your mount is not limited by distance
-Mass Command: as Command, but affects up to 3d6 creatures
-Divine Knowledge: Your mount's intelligence score becomes 18
-Divine Wisdom: Your mount's Wisdom becomes 18
-Divine Will: Your mount's Charisma becomes 18
-Hide of the Heavens: Mount gains DR 5/Evil
-Mounted Warrior of Heaven: At anytime in which The character is mounted upon his Divine Companion, he may make an opposed Charisma check with every hostile creature that can see him. Any target who loses the check is stunned for one round and shaken for another. A target cannot be affected by this ability more than once every twenty-four hours.



Wow, I liked that last one, but may encourage characters to use their mounts a bit *way* too much. Revisions? Completely new ideas?

For those of you who may be wondering, Arilon Ithilien is the name of a Paladin I started playing this week, and I fear that I may someday soon feel the sting of the Paladin's distressing lack of a capstone ability.

(EDIT) Changed double flying speed to increase in maneuverability and added blinding speed

Duke of URL
2007-01-05, 08:54 AM
I'll try one...

Divine Smiting (su): You personify the divine wrath of your deity against infidels. When using Smite Evil to bring an opponent to less than 0 HP, all evil creatures that can see the blow are struck with fear and begin cowering (Will save vs. DC 10 + 1/2 class level + CHA modifier negates fear) for 1d6 rounds or until directly attacked; those making the save against fear are still shaken for 1 round. If the incapacitated/killed opponent is considered a leader, his/her/its followers will be panicked instead of cowering upon failing the fear save; likewise any creature that fails the save by 10 or more is panicked instead of cowering.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-05, 11:25 AM
Hrm... Let's take a page from the Favored Soul's book...

Ascendance (SU):
Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At 20th-level, you gain wings and can fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). The wings are white, feathered, and glow softly with a divine light. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver. You are forevermore treated as an outsider (native) and gains the good and lawful subtypes.


...Too much?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 12:33 PM
Er, yeah. That would warrant a LA, which is rather...unfavorable for a class skill. I REALLY liked what came out when I went for a mount upgrade; I might make it an epic feat instead, though. We'll see.

On a side note, let's not forget the whole POINT of this thread. We're still in the brainstorm phase, which is great, but we'll need to start sanding and polishing soon to see if we can actually decide on an ability or a set of abilities to houserule in. Eventually.

Duke of URL
2007-01-05, 12:59 PM
-Mounted Warrior of Heaven: At anytime in which The character is mounted upon his Divine Companion, he may make an opposed Charisma check with every hostile creature that can see him. Any target who loses the check is stunned for one round and shaken for another. A target cannot be affected by this ability more than once every twenty-four hours.

That sounds a little odd... why opposed CHA instead of a Will save vs. a CHA-based DC?

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-05, 01:16 PM
I think any kind of capstone ability should focus on the paladin, rather than the mount. I could see a feat or something to get a similar effect, sure, but to me it seems we should be focusing on the character.


With my previous proposal, what about taking out the damage reduction? Or taking off the wings and leaving the damage reduction?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 01:30 PM
It should be something combative. After all, a paladin is a warrior class.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 02:24 PM
Combative...Alright, coming from a Christian standpoint, adding the Merciful quality to all wielded weapons would serve the role of Knight Templar
for a Paladin, but wouldn't work for people who roleplay differently or want to slaughter all those opposing their god.

I knew when I made them that my two ideas up top weren't quite right, but I needed to attract people like you, Fax, that could do better than I. Now as for your suggestion; the ability should not only be primarily a combat-use ability, it should reflect the Paladin's prolonged and faithful dedication to his god (twenty straight levels without multiclassing or Prcs? That's worth something). I'm actually trying to think of something that would give the Paladin a complete boost to all previous class features, so maybe a monk-ish template addition might serve. Ideas?

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-05, 02:40 PM
The way I'm thinking of it, it should be something that reflects the devotion aspect of the class; hence, ascendance. If we want it to be something that makes them better damage dealers, though, the next stop in our train of thought could be to make it something that makes thier smiting ability that much better, I think.

As to what exactly that could be... I'll get back to you on that once I've slept on it a bit.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 02:54 PM
Your ascendance idea might be the best one I've seen that fits the Paladin concept, Paradox, but not quite handled properly, I think. The Paladin was already given an enhanced mode of transportation, flying is overkill, and possibly game-breaking, or a weakness; I'd need to playtest it to see. You're on the right track though, I'll see what I can think of along those lines as well.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 02:58 PM
Maybe he acquires the Celestial template, becomes an outsider, and doubles the effects of his Smites?

Danu
2007-01-05, 03:06 PM
Change type to outsider (good, native), gain DR 10/evil, retain smite evil 5/day. Similar to the monk's 'perfect self' ability, if somewhat more powerful because of the smite and the relative rareness of weapons that would bypass the DR.

For the most part, however, the paladin will be fighting evil outsiders or evil characters with unholy weapons, so the DR 10/evil wouldn't come into play very often. The smite evil is still very helpful, and the outsider type grants him noticable benefits, whilst the native subtype still allows him to the be raised/resurrected.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 03:31 PM
Alright then, how 'bout making that less jagged with some comfy fluff built around it now?

(Name) (Su): Upon reaching twentieth level, a paladin has proven himself both faithful and effective to her deity, to the extent that she is changed into a creature reflecting the deity's realm. The paladin's type is changed to Outsider (Good, Native) and she gains Damage Reduction 10/evil. The paladin's appearance is also subtly changed to reflect her dedication to her deity; a slight change in skin tone or a more powerful voice, at the DM's discretion.

I'm not good with names, can someone help me out here?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 03:37 PM
Divine Transformation.

Xefas
2007-01-05, 03:51 PM
Hi, I'm new here. *waves awkwardly*

Though, as I understand it, you don't need to worry about overpowering the paladin all that much. Its very unlikely that whatever he gets will even put him on par with a level 20 cleric or wizard.

Also, I think you should give him an ability that isn't just a paladinized version of the Monk capstone ability.

My suggestion is something like:

Purge or Protect (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes either the metaphorical fist of their deity, or the manifestation of the deity's blessings. This choice must be made upon attaining 20th level and can never be changed afterward. If the paladin chooses to purge, then once per day, after succeeding on a hit with a smite evil attempt, instead of dealing damage, the paladin may force a fortitude saving throw on his victim (DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's class level + the paladin's CHA modifier). If they fail, their physical body is immediately destroyed; turned into a pile of heretical ash. Furthermore, their soul is transported to the paladin's deity's homeplane for judgement. If the paladin chooses to protect, then they instead are permanently surrounded by an aura of divine blessings. All good-aligned allies within 30' gain a divine bonus to their armor class equal to the paladin's Cha modifier, bonus hit points equal to the paladin's Cha modifier x2 (the bonus hit points only remain as long as the allies stay inside the paladin's aura), and immunity to fear and disease.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 03:54 PM
Interesting idea.

We should really just rebuild the Paladin from the ground up, you know. Keep the Smites and Lay on Hands, get rid of the Rem Disease, and add in some of our own abilites. Perhaps alter the mount.

Xefas
2007-01-05, 04:00 PM
Perhaps that is the thing to do.

Having something like 8 dead levels, a nigh-useless remove disease ability that occupies most of the rest, and spellcasting that only ever comes into play when you don't have a cleric in your party never sat well with me.

However, those first few levels sure are pretty.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 04:02 PM
Well, the casting is pretty nice once you've got the Spell Compendium because you get to do things that Clerics can't.

Preliminary thoughts for a restructure?

Xefas
2007-01-05, 04:08 PM
I don't think I have the Spell Compendium. Perhaps I should endeavor to go seek it out.

My first thoughts will be that if we're going to reconstruct it, we need to give rules for a Lawful Evil variant. Anal-retentive servants of dark gods are just as likely to exist as those of the good variety. Paladin of Tyranny from UA just won't cut it if we reshape the default paladin.

I really enjoy doing stuff like this. So, should I maybe right up a draft or something and post it?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 04:18 PM
Yeah, write one up, and I'll see what I can come up with, and I'm fairly certian Seraph will come up with something too.

Xefas
2007-01-05, 05:20 PM
Alright, here's my new paladin. The only things that remain the same are his Aura of Good/Evil, Detect Good/Evil, and Smite Good/Evil. I scrapped the whole mount thing. It never made much sense to me. Does running around on a horse somehow make you holier? I figure if a paladin wants to be the mounted knight in shining armor, he can go buy a horse and pay for it to be awakened by a druid just like everybody else.

Oh yeah, he keeps all the hit dice, skill points, class skills, proficiencies, saves, and BAB of the base paladin.

Reconstructing the Paladin
Alignment Requirement: Either Lawful Good, or Lawful Evil

Level 1: Aura of Good/Evil, Detect Evil/Good, Smite 1/day
Level 2: Holy Power 1/day
Level 3: Divine Grace
Level 4: Divine Health
Level 5: Smite 2/day
Level 6: Divine Grace
Level 7: Holy Power 2/day
Level 8: Divine Health
Level 9: Divine Grace
Level 10: Smite 3/day
Level 11: Discern Truth +2
Level 12: Divine Convictions, Divine Health
Level 13: Holy Power 3/day
Level 14: Discern Truth +4
Level 15: Divine Convictions, Smite 4/day
Level 16: Divine Health
Level 17: Discern Truth +6
Level 18: Divine Convictions
Level 19: Holy Power 4/day
Level 20: Smite 5/day, Purge or Protect

Smite (Su): One of a paladin’s duties is to bring low the foes of their cause. If the paladin is lawful good, once per day, they may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. They add their Charisma bonus (if any) to their attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. If the paladin is Lawful Evil, then they smite good instead of evil. If a Lawful Evil paladin accidentally smites someone who is not good, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up as normal.

Holy Power (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin becomes a mortal conduit for their immortal master’s blessings. When using this ability, they may heal 1d8 hit points from a single target through touch per 4 levels (although at least 1d8. i.e. 1d8 at 1-7th level, 2d8 8-11th level, 3d8 12-15th level, 4d8 at 16-19th level, and 5d8 at 20th level). At 7th level, they may instead use 1 use of this ability to remove disease, as the spell of the same name. At 13th level, a paladin may instead make a use of this ability function as a death ward, as the spell, on one target by touch. At 19th level, a single use of this ability may instead cause all melee attacks made by the paladin to count as both alignment types of their deity for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction for 1 round per paladin level.

Divine Grace (Su): A paladin gains extreme good fortune through the minor interventions of their deity in exchange for their continued service. At 3rd level, a paladin chooses Fortitude, Reflex, or Will. They gain a bonus equal to their charisma modifier on all saving throws of that kind. At 6th level, they choose a second type, and at 9th level they gain the remaining one.

Divine Convictions (Su): A paladin believes in their deity to such extent that by sheer force of faith they refuse to be injured by their enemies. At 12th level, they gain damage reduction 2/-. At 15th level, their damage reduction improves to 4/- and again at 18th level to 5/-.

Divine Health (Su): Energies from the outer planes suffuse the body of a devout paladin. Even though it is a small amount, it may still have profound effects on the quality of life for a paladin. At 4th level, a paladin is no longer subject to mundane diseases. At 8th level, a paladin’s body can no longer be affected by mundane poisons. At 12 level, they become immune to supernatural disease, and at 16th level, even supernatural poison has no effect on them.

Discern Truth (Ex): At 11th level, a paladin either makes it easier to find truth or lies within others or more difficult for others to find it within them. A Lawful Good paladin gains the indicated bonus to all Sense Motive checks. A Lawful Evil paladin gains the indicated bonus to all Bluff checks.

Purge or Protect (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes either the metaphorical fist of their deity, or the manifestation of the deity's blessings. This choice must be made upon attaining 20th level and can never be changed afterward. If the paladin chooses to purge, then once per day, after succeeding on a hit with a smite attempt, instead of dealing damage, the paladin may force a fortitude saving throw on his victim (DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's class level + the paladin's CHA modifier). If they fail, their physical body is immediately destroyed; turned into a pile of heretical ash. Furthermore, their soul is transported to the paladin's deity's homeplane for judgment. If the paladin chooses to protect, then they instead are permanently surrounded by an aura of divine blessings. All allies that share the same alignment as the paladin on the good-evil axis within 30' gain a divine bonus to their armor class equal to the paladin's Cha modifier, bonus hit points equal to the paladin's Cha modifier x2 (the bonus hit points only remain as long as the allies stay inside the paladin's aura), and immunity to fear and disease.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 05:36 PM
Quick notes:
*Holy Power should probably still remain Lay on Hands, and should probably follow the pattern that the Dragon Shaman's Lay on Hands does. Good idea with giving it multiple applications, though
*Divine Grace doesn't need an alteration. Leave it as it was.
*Divine Convictions should grant DR */good or */evil, not */-.
*Purge or Protect is a good capstone, but I see it more as a 19th level ability and having some sort of transformativie thing happen at 20.

Xefas
2007-01-05, 05:56 PM
I actually hadn't ever thought of the Dragon Shaman. Its something I've only ever skimmed lightly, because I haven't found a time to use it. Though, upon further reading, its Touch of Vitality does pretty much what I was going for, so I agree with you on that.

As for the damage reduction, my reasoning is...well, a paladin serving a god of goodness is sent out to destroy evil. So, why should evil get an advantage? If a paladin's purpose is to exterminate evil-doers, then why are neutral-aligned beings less effective against him? It doesn't make sense. Same goes for an evil paladin seeking out good. Why would a god grant someone a power that doesn't work against the very things the god granted you power to fight in the first place?

As for having no transformation, my reasoning is that a paladin is a mortal who serves their god. They are meant to become immortal servants after death, not before it. Part of what makes a paladin special is that they aren't some archon or demon...they're just an average guy who a god has taken under their wing.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 08:26 PM
Good points all.

The main thing I'm seeing with the DR is that it's better than the already-existing Barbarian's DR. Either match it or make it overcomeable by something.

Still, I see the PoP ability as a 19th, not a capstone.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-01-05, 08:55 PM
I think good paladins get DR/good, since they are so surprised by a fellow trying to hurt them. They only get hurt by themselves. And evil gets DR/evil.

And now that they're without a mount, I say apply the Half-Celestial/Fiendish template. Dread necromancers get Demilich at 20th level, and it symbolizes the paladins partilally becoming part of their god.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-05, 08:59 PM
Dragon had some recent variants for the Paladin that seemed useful. I can't remember them off the top of my head but once I dig them up I'll post the revelant ones here.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 09:37 PM
Hrm...I miss the special mount; I think the reason that paladins were given that ability is probably due to their being based primarily on the Knight Templar, as a friend of mine pointed out. It may also have to do with D&D deities' habit of sending their loyal followers to faraway locations on nigh-impossible missions; thus giving the paladin a need for a somewhat sturdier mode of transportation.

Kamakazee_Gnome
2007-01-05, 10:22 PM
I'd suggest either wings, or perhaps the something akin to Sanctify Martial Strike (BoED), or even Holy Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#holyStrike) as the class feature

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-05, 11:00 PM
I always liked the aura-based paladin from Diablo II; I might take a whack at that later.

Losing the mount makes wings a MUCH more viable option for a paladin capstone. I say we give them the white-feathered wings I mentioned with my first suggestion, and the native ousider [good] subtype with it.

Xefas
2007-01-05, 11:07 PM
Alright, so I need to change the Holy Power to match the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality and return Divine Grace to its former effect, as well as alter Divine Convictions. In addition, a new capstone needs to be made.

Well, normal wings probably wouldn't work out that well. Paladins are generally running around in full plate and the like...wouldn't that mess with their flying capabilities?

Anyway, alright...how about something like this:

Eternal Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin recieves a body crafted specifically by their deity as a reward for the unwavering faith that they have shown thusfar. First, they become an Outsider (Native), and do not have to eat, sleep, or breathe. Secondly, the paladin must choose a single suit of armor, and a combination of weapons and a shield that can be held in their hands at one time (i.e. 1 2-hander, 1-hand and shield, 2 1-hands). These items become forevermore bonded to the paladin, literally meshing into his body permanently. Their weight is added to the paladin's own natural weight and thus is not counted for his encumburence (nor does it slow him). Thirdly, a white halo (if Lawful Good) or a black halo (if Lawful Evil) appears above the paladin's head, and feathered wings (white if Good, black if Evil) sprout from their back. These wings give the paladin a fly speed equal to their land speed (not counting magic items such as Boots of Striding and Sprinting). These come at a small price, however. First, no armor or weapons other than the ones infused with the paladin may ever be used by them (though they may be further enchanted). Secondly, if a paladin ever breaks their oath to an extent that they would lose their paladinhood, their body immediately implodes, irrevocably destroying it forever. Furthermore, their soul is sent to the Ninth Hell (or the campaign world's equivalent), where it remains their eternally bound to the plane, unable to be pulled from it, even by direct divine intervention.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-05, 11:10 PM
I'm very wary of giving paladins permanent wings...but wait! They need not be permanent; let me make a few tweaks to your original idea, if you don't mind; Paradox.

Ascendance (Su):
Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings that grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, shimmering or of any other traits that represent the nature of your deity. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver and your type changes to Outsider (Native) and gain the Good subtype. Sprouting wings is a free action, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.

This seems a bit better now; methinks that having wings on your back all the time would make movements rather clumsy. I removed the Lawful subtype because that represents the discipline necessary to be a paladin, not the deity's influence on the paladin. Whatcha think? Especially you, Paradox, I hope you don't mind the changes I made to your idea.

(EDIT) D'OH! simued! That's new record: thrice in two days.

And I think your idea may be a bit overdone, Xefas. Remember epic campaigns and that people generally enjoy being...people.

Siberys
2007-01-05, 11:48 PM
I'd like to see how the Capstone turns out; I just hope it's compatible with the normal Pally. I changed their Remove Disease ability to Weapon of the Deity, but I'd like to see what you all come up with.

*retreats back to lurking*

Roderick_BR
2007-01-06, 12:39 AM
I never thought paladins needed a change, but it's worth a try. Just make remove disease a spell, and put something else there.
As for level 20, a good version of the monk's perfect self sounds fine. In the Defenders of Faith, the name is One with the Deity, where the cleric gains his powers according to his alignment. Keep the mount, and don't add wings to the paladin.
Maybe you could get something from Cavalier, Knight of Middle Circle, and these things to see what you could add.
Other than that... I got nothing.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 12:57 AM
Hrm. I once more grudge my sourcebook deprivation. Let's try to work with Core rules, since the Paladin is a core class anyway. Since apparently we're now doing a Paladin Redux, we need to work from the ground up, as Fax said. I enjoy the flavor of Lay on Hands; but Remove Disease is definitely doable as a spell. Anyone want to make the table so we can start filling things in? Tables don't like me very much lately.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-01-06, 02:24 AM
I like it.

[Edit: This would have applied to a particular post, but I was massively ninjaed. Darn "quick reply" button... after reading several posts, it's not such a quick reply...]

Roderick_BR
2007-01-06, 04:20 AM
Alright. For remove disease, let's make it a 1st circle level spell. A paladin with a low WIS will have it at 6th level, and one with a high WIS will have it at 4th. A Cleric gets it at 5th. I think it's balanced. It also allows him to have more spells available to memorize it.
The "One with the deity" is practically the Monk's "Perfect Self" power.
Let's just avoid "bonus feats", or powers that are just versions of existing feats.]

Edit: Maybe bring back the "protection from evil" power from AD&D.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-06, 10:29 AM
Seraph, I have no problem with people making changes to my ideas, so don't sweat it.

I like what you've done with Ascendance, but if the concern before was that it was overpowered, I don't think you've done much to help it... As written, a 20th level paladin could just sprout the wings in the morning and keep them there as long as s/he liked. Lemme modify your modification a bit; this was something I had in mind doing from the start if people thought my first version was too much...

Ascendance (SU):
Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings that grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability) a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier. The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, shimmering or of any other traits that represent the nature of your deity, and last a number of rounds equal to half your paladin level. They may be dismissed at will, though you still use up an entire use of this ability if you do so before the maximum duration ends. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver while you have these wings. Your type changes to Outsider (Native) and you gain the Good subtype. Sprouting wings is a swift action, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.

Obviously, additions in blue, and omissions in strike-through.

It become kind of like a holy rage this way, and less powerful than my first pass at the feature by being less permanent. What do you guys think?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 11:53 AM
If it's going to be limited to the point in which the Paladin is counting seconds in which he flies, then we'll need to keep the mount, or else remove it from the flavor altogether and assume that a character that needs to go somewhere can buy a horse.

Alright, let's take a look at this. At twentieth level, A paladin can fly for one minute, maybe around eight times a day, with good equipment. If you Run, er, fly quickly, that means 240 feet per round, for 10 rounds is 2400 feet per minute, if taken in a straight path. That seems fair enough, but the problem I see is that in combat, ten rounds might not be enough, though of course one could simply reinstitue the wings as you begin falling, or prepare an action to reascend as soon as the wings dissipate. Maybe a bonus feat would be a good complement; chosen from the Flyby Attack, Improved Flyby Attack, Hover, and Wingover. That might make it more practical, especially when going toe-to-toe with flying enemies or ambushing from above.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-01-06, 05:42 PM
If you're going to do the above limitations to the wing usage, might I suggest allowing the paladin to keep the wings without having to resprout them after the minute is done, provided he has additional usages of this ability. He would still have to count the time, but could continue fighting without having an awkward wing retraction/extention moment. It would be more like a pool of wing usage, rather than several one-time shots. This *is* a capstone ability, after all.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 06:19 PM
Good idea and well put. Would you do the honors, Paradox?

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-06, 06:46 PM
Ascendance (SU):
Through dedicated and exceptional service to your deity, you have gained their personal favor, which manifests as follows. At twentieth level, you gain the ability to sprout great, translucent and intangible wings that grant you the ability to fly at a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability) a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier. The wings may be white, feathered, flaming, shimmering or of any other traits that represent the nature of your deity, and last a number of rounds equal to half your paladin level. They may be dismissed at will, though you still use up an entire use of this ability if you do so before the maximum duration ends. In addition, you gain damage reduction 10/silver while you have these wings. Your type changes to Outsider (Native) and you gain the Good subtype. Sprouting wings is a swift action, but you cannot fly on the same turn in which you sprout them.


Maybe its just me, but (while thats a good flavorful idea) that doesn't seem like a capstone to me. What do you get from Outsider (Native) and the Good subtype? Darkvision. If you don't already have it, and you'll ping more on a detect good, not to mention be affected by magic circle: good and pro. good.

It just doesn't seem very powerful.

A brief over look of other capstones:

Wizard: 9th level Arcane spells. 'nuff said.
Sorcerer: See wizard
Cleric: 9th level divine spells. 'nuff said.
Druid: See cleric and add wild shape.
Barbarian: Mighty Rage (Important for melee character), and you can do it 6 times a day.
Bard: Inspire Courage +4 and 6th level bard spells. (No one ever said bards are powerhouses though.)
Fighter: Bonus Feat.
Monk: Perfect Self, Slow fall any distance, Last upgrade in natural attacks, last unarmed AC bonus upgrade.
Ranger: 5th favored enemy
Rogue:....actually doesn't have anything. This should be fixed too.

This is a splat book capstone but look at Dread Necromancer! You turn into a lich and 9th level spells!

Now where does sprouting wings and gaining DR 10/silver fit in on there? Definitly not with spellcasters (Not that it should be up that high) but not as bad as bard or fighter capstone. Below 5th Favored Enemy since the bonuses from before increase once more. I would put it right about Bard, fighter, and Rogue in terms of capstones.

For 54,000 gold (+ the amount for any of numerous items that give DR) you have close to a twentieth level ability.

Just the flying part you can afford by 11th level using WBL guidelines. Just because its good for the Favored Soul (Who also get 9th level abilities) doesn't mean it should be for the paladin. Being able to fly at that level is important but you have more then enough gold to have bought that ability by this point.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 06:56 PM
Hrm...that is quite an excellent point, Callos; but I'm not quite ready to scrap the idea just yet, if you'll forgive me. However, adding in another unique class ability at level 20 will instantly stand out overpowering, even it's not; so we'll need to add abilities with progression levels, aleast one of them wrapping up on level 20. So, let's start building the foundation so we can start going up.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-06, 07:40 PM
Hrm...that is quite an excellent point, Callos; but I'm not quite ready to scrap the idea just yet, if you'll forgive me. However, adding in another unique class ability at level 20 will instantly stand out overpowering, even it's not; so we'll need to add abilities with progression levels, aleast one of them wrapping up on level 20. So, let's start building the foundation so we can start going up.


Oh, don't mistake me. I still think its a worthwhile ability but I don't think its a capstone ability. Heck, I oculd see it as easy as being gaining the Half-Celestial template at level twenty as a counter point to the Dread Necromancer's lich ascension. Add to that removing Remove Disease and replacing it with a more...worthwhile growing ability and I think the paladin class will become much more attractive to a lot of people.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-06, 08:29 PM
We have a point of agreement then. Let's build a foundation then. I'll get started, I should have a good piece done by tomorrow afternoon; I'll post as soon as I have something.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-07, 12:00 PM
I was posting this as a suggested cap to Xefas's redone paladin: that re-do removes the mount already, and adding wings isn't as useful if they already have a class feature that they could use to move faster. Still, I though DR 10 would be a pretty strong addition, even if silver negates it, and honestly I still do. Adding the outsider stuff was just there for flavor, though in my campaign I plan to have items that would only be usable for outsiders (that will be damn good, too). I thought the cry of protest I recieved earlier was that is was too powerful, and now the problem is that with a minor modification it's obviously underpowered? I fear I'm a bit confused on how people are reasoning this power-levels on these things.


I think for now I'm just going to wait and see what others are doing with this class. I like Xefas's re-do, but others here are trying. I've got another project going, or else I'd follow through on that aura-based re-do I mentioned earlier.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-07, 01:09 PM
I was posting this as a suggested cap to Xefas's redone paladin: that re-do removes the mount already, and adding wings isn't as useful if they already have a class feature that they could use to move faster. Still, I though DR 10 would be a pretty strong addition, even if silver negates it, and honestly I still do. Adding the outsider stuff was just there for flavor, though in my campaign I plan to have items that would only be usable for outsiders (that will be damn good, too). I thought the cry of protest I recieved earlier was that is was too powerful, and now the problem is that with a minor modification it's obviously underpowered? I fear I'm a bit confused on how people are reasoning this power-levels on these things.


Ah. I thought that it was the suggested cap for all paladins. DR 10 is good and a nice idea but it doesn't seem to pack the ompfh of what a paladin's cap should.

Athenodorus
2007-01-07, 01:20 PM
I like the idea of an expanded Smite Evil, since that is (to me anyway) the definitive Pally ability.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-08, 03:30 PM
Here's something that can replace Remove Disease

Aura of Banishment
An invisible aura surrounds you that prevents fiends from extraplanar travel unto your plane.
Level: 6th
Replaces: If you choose this ability, you do not gain the ability to remove disease.
Benefit: An aura of banishment surrounds you to a distance of 30 feet. Only evil outsiders can feel the aura and suffer from its effects. No evil outsider with fewer Hit Dice then your paladin level can be summoned into this area, nor can such creatures use summoning or teleporting effects.
In addition, the aura grants you a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks against evil outsiders.

At 12th level your aura affects evil outsiders up to your Hit Dice+2 and lower, as well as evil creatures equal to your Hit Dice-4 and lower.

At 18th level your aura affects evil outsiders up to your Hit Dice+2 and lower, as well as evil creatures equal to your Hit Dice+2 and lower.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-08, 04:32 PM
Expand that to raising undead as well and that looks really good. Already animated undead are fine.

Tussy the Druid
2007-01-08, 09:20 PM
Well, i don't have much to contribute, but i'd like to say that i like the whole wing idea for the paladins, and the new paladin seems more appealing to me. What i don't like is making it so the wings have a duration. It seems to me that if you have wings, you should keep them (unless it was some sort of spell) Like Dragon Disciples, they keep their wings, shouldn't a lvl 20 paladin be able to keep theirs? Just thinking out loud here.

Triaxx
2007-01-08, 09:39 PM
I propose an alternative capstone:

Divine Warrior (Ex)
Level: 20th
Benefit: At Twentieth level, a Paladin has mastered the arts of war and begun to ascend in the priesthood of his or her chosen deity. Once per day for four hours, a paladin may draw upon the power of their deity, and become a Divine Warrior, taking the physical form of the deities chosen avatar, and wielding the favored weapon of that deity with no penalties, irregardless of the paladin's typical choice of weapon. Divine Warriors have DR10/Silver, and are wrapped in aura's of Protection from the domains to which their deity is opposed, as per the spells. (Heirounous would grant Protection from Evil and Chaos.)

The_Snark
2007-01-08, 09:51 PM
Wings: I don't really see it working with the archetypal paladin in full plate, as cool as it is. I think some sort of protective aura or ability is in order here.

Divine warrior isn't bad, but most paladins already will be proficient with their deity's favored weapon, so it isn't providing all that much benefit, especially since it's not always on. I do like the protection from evil effect, though, so here's my take on it:

Protective Aura (Su)
Level: 20
The paladin constantly radiates a Magic Circle against Evil effect (caster level equal to paladin level), except that all bonuses from the spell are doubled (+4 instead of +2), and the radius is 20 feet. The paladin may surpress or activate this effect as a free action once each round. It can be dispelled, but the paladin can simply reactivate it again as a free action on his or her turn.

It's not super-powerful, but it is useful (and provides an area protection from possession and control, which a lot of fiends and undead do). If it doesn't seem powerful enough, there are several things you could add to it pretty easily—the Lesser Globe of Invulnerability effect that most celestials with this ability have could work, though it does interfere with allied spellcasting to some extent. Alternatively, a fear aura affecting evil creatures (again, similar to some celestial abilities), or a fear effect added to the smite evil ability, could be good.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 12:55 PM
It should definitely be some kind of anti Evil / Demon / Devil / Dragon type ability... Preferably Offensive.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-10, 04:18 PM
Well, we need to decide this then. Are we doing a redux or a capstone? If a redux, then all of this about what to give the pally at level 20 is moot, because we have no foundation to build on. Which is it then?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 04:27 PM
Redux, most definitely.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 05:29 PM
Both, probably. You need an 'easy fix' and a more complicated option. There might be a need for several Redux as well, as a lot depends on which Base Classes the Paladin is balanced against.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 05:38 PM
Well, let's start with this: the Paladin redux needs to keep its abilities that PrCs and other classes are dependent on. So, the redone Paladin needs to retain the following, in some semblance: Lay on Hands, Mount, Smite, Spellcasting, Divine Grace.

Beyond that, it's open season.

illathid
2007-01-10, 05:41 PM
I have already posted this in another thread, but if you are considering a paladin redux you should really look at the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) on the Spooky Wizard's message board. They balance it against the new Tome of Battle classes and if you read the post by OneWinged4ngel they provided pretty significant reasons for why they did so.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 05:48 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about that (sort of, as it did inspire my thougts about power levels somewhere along the line).

Tussy the Druid
2007-01-10, 07:40 PM
I propose an alternative capstone:

Divine Warrior (Ex)
Level: 20th
Benefit: At Twentieth level, a Paladin has mastered the arts of war and begun to ascend in the priesthood of his or her chosen deity. Once per day for four hours, a paladin may draw upon the power of their deity, and become a Divine Warrior, taking the physical form of the deities chosen avatar, and wielding the favored weapon of that deity with no penalties, irregardless of the paladin's typical choice of weapon. Divine Warriors have DR10/Silver, and are wrapped in aura's of Protection from the domains to which their deity is opposed, as per the spells. (Heirounous would grant Protection from Evil and Chaos.)

That reminds me a lot of the Dervish's abilities in Guild Wars: Nightfall. I guess it would apply to pallies as well, considering dervs are holy warriors.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-10, 08:18 PM
Some of those aura effects sounds cool. I just think the guy added too many powers, and paladins should keep their spell casting.

illathid
2007-01-11, 02:26 AM
Some of those aura effects sounds cool. I just think the guy added too many powers, and paladins should keep their spell casting.

I'm going to assume that your talking about the rebalanced paladin. My take on this is as follows:

Dead levels suck.

Its not a cool feeling when you level up and you get nothing but +1 to your BAB and increases to your saves. This contributes to the greatly to the whole "level dipping" philosophy ("I'm a Paladin/Cleric/Sorcerer/Pious Templar/Fist of Raziel.")

One way to counter this is to design classes that give you something new and interesting at every level. That way there is something concrete that you give up when you multiclass ("Well, I would've picked up a level of that for ability Y, but then I wouldn't have gotten ability X.") Now, there is a good reason for somebody to single class paladin all the way to twenty.

Just adding a capstone power to the paladin isn't going to be enough to make it worth taking levels 7-19. Well, at least that where i stand on the issue. Personally I think all of the classes should be balance around this, being able to do things in combat is fun. I mean we shouldn't have to let wizards have all the fun. :smallwink:

P.S. In the rebalanced paladin, they still have spell casting. Just scroll down
past A Hero Never Falls (Ex). it's in a spoiler box.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-11, 05:07 AM
Du'h. I think I misread that. I agree on the adding one power for each level. What we need though is something that doesn't look like a prestige class or gives too many options or powers. D&D is complex enough as it is.
Hmm.. if you look spell casting, every level you advance, you gain one extra spell usage, but gains new spell levels only every 2 levels. For example, a wizard can cast one first level spell at 1st level. At 2nd, he can cast another one. It's like that +1 to BAB. Only at his 3rd level he gains a 2nd level spells.
Anyway, giving him a special hability every 2-3 levels is still a good idea (other than remove disease. seriously, who ever needed to use it?).
Since paladins already have that aura of courage, we could make others auras that can increase his effectiveness in battle, as well as a party member.

Triaxx
2007-01-11, 07:27 AM
("I'm a Paladin/Cleric/Sorcerer/Pious Templar/Fist of Raziel.")

And I'm only level 10.

Let us not forget the terrible math involved in the Smite Evil ability.5th level, and every five levels to a maximum of five... Shouldn't that be four?

And even if one had the energy to take a Paladin all the way to 20, there's no reason to go epic with one.

Paladine
2007-01-11, 09:06 AM
For a Complete Redux:

Simply make the spells
Divine Power
Divine Might
Righteous Might
into Paladine only Spells , they are supposed to be the sword of their Deity , not the Clerics.

Capstone :

A Hero never Falls
wonderful ability , like it very much

Triaxx
2007-01-11, 12:17 PM
I don't know, Divine Might and Power fit, but I think Righteous might should remain for both of them. It fits with the Mighty Wrath of the Paladin, while also the Righteous Fury of the Cleric.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-12, 03:46 PM
One more I thought this week:
Scourge of evil
The paladin's fame is so spread that his name is a synonym of danger for those with evil intent. Villains fear the day they'll meet a paladin so powerful, and lesser criminals can enter blind panic if faced with a legendary hero.
The paladin effectively gains Frightening Presence, only against Chaotic and intelligent creatures.

Matthew
2007-01-12, 03:59 PM
they are supposed to be the sword of their Deity , not the Clerics.

I wouldn't agree with that. Clerics are the direct servants of a Deity, Paladins not so much.

illathid
2007-01-12, 05:56 PM
If you want a very in depth look at the Paladin Archetype, I suggest you read this (http://www.geocities.com/westquest_2000/paladin.htm). It helps separate the cleric and paladin archetypes better.

Matthew
2007-01-12, 09:00 PM
Good article. Doesn't get all its facts right, though. Amongst other things, Paladin occurs earlier than the sixteenth century in the context of Charlemagne's Peers in Middle English. No doubt that's derived from Medieval French somewhere along the line.

As far as I am concerned, the simplest definition remains:

D&D Paladin - A very religious warrior member of the laity
D&D Cleric - A warrior member of the clergy

I wouldn't accept that membership within the Clergy should be extended to concept of the Paladin, logically or otherwise.

illathid
2007-01-13, 05:11 AM
I agree completely, I think part of the reason people get hung up on it is because all clerics are priests but not all priest are clerics. Village priest in games I run are usually experts, or maybe adepts (depending on how prevalent magic is in the campaign.)

Anyways not to get too off topic, but I think that the Tome of Battle has really presented a paradigm shift in way we should view D&D classes in both balance and design theory. As such any attempt to redesign a core class should take the ideas presented in that book to heart, Paladins almost more so than most classes.

(quick aside: Would adapting the spellcasting classes to a system similar to the maneuver/recovery system in ToB help with their balance? I'm thinking the Sorcerer would be like the Crusader while the Wizard would mimic the Swordsage. Obviously it couldn't be a straight port and would need some tweaking, but I think I'm going to play around with it a bit. If I like it I may post it here.)

P.S. Actually he does mention the peers of Charlemagne (or for the germans: Karl der Grosse) in the section on mythology and legend a little more than half way down.

Triaxx
2007-01-13, 07:58 AM
I always accounted Paladin's like the Templar. Warriors in service of a god, riding to war swords blazing. Clerics are more of the stay at home, organize the people to defend the faith.

Sort of a Sword and Shield theory. The Paladin is the sword, fighting for the god. The Cleric the shield defending the flock.

Matthew
2007-01-13, 08:03 AM
Clerics were originally based on the Military Orders. Over the years things have become conflated in RPGs. It's a common perception to see the Paladin as a member of a Holy Order, but even the flavour text in the PHB doesn't suggest that. They serve the church, sure, but they remain members of the laity. A Paladin could be an exemplary Crusader (in the historical sense), but a Cleric could not (as being a Templar was slightly different).

The problem is that the concepts are inspired by real life, but tend not to make very good sense outside of that context.

A literary model might be Lancelot. Starts out as a Fighter, becomes a Paladin searching for the Holy Grail, Falls from Paladinhood through his affair with the Guinevere, becomes a Cloistered Cleric.
Another might be Perceval or Bors who could be seen as Paladins who become Cloistered Clerics and then Clerics when they go off to end their days in the Holy Land.

A lot depends on interpretation of which mechanics best support which roles.


I agree completely, I think part of the reason people get hung up on it is because all clerics are priests but not all priest are clerics. Village priest in games I run are usually experts, or maybe adepts (depending on how prevalent magic is in the campaign.)

Yup, me too.


Anyways not to get too off topic, but I think that the Tome of Battle has really presented a paradigm shift in way we should view D&D classes in both balance and design theory. As such any attempt to redesign a core class should take the ideas presented in that book to heart, Paladins almost more so than most classes.

I think we need to look at building Paladin Base Classes of varying power. Fighters and Rogues remain the default standard for me. I prefer to reduce the power of Wizards and Clerics, rather than increase the power of other Base Classes to much (though I do think at higher levels Rogues and Fighters need to be better).


P.S. Actually he does mention the peers of Charlemagne (or for the germans: Karl der Grosse) in the section on mythology and legend a little more than half way down.

Yeah, but he is under the impression that the word only appeared in French in the Sixteenth Century. I’m pretty sure he’s mistaken about that. He also seems to have a very high opinion of the benefits of stirrups, which is a long since debunked idea. Spear, Shield and Mail were normal equipment for mounted troops well before the stirrup.
A lot of pseudo history follows that remark, even given that it is presented in an abridged form. Even his mythological analysis is questionable. Ganelon is not a member of the twelve peers (except in a later Italian work, where he is being made more literally the Judas figure - as if it were needed!) nor is Turpin one of the twelve peers (at least not originally, though he does sometimes end up counted amongst their number, but notably not in the same work Ganelon is).

Wikipedia - Paladin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Peers)

An interesting article, nonetheless (I'm not at all familiar with Malagigi, so it was nice to be introduced).

illathid
2007-01-13, 03:17 PM
I think we need to look at building Paladin Base Classes of varying power. Fighters and Rogues remain the default standard for me. I prefer to reduce the power of Wizards and Clerics, rather than increase the power of other Base Classes to much (though I do think at higher levels Rogues and Fighters need to be better).Thats a valid point, and I don't necessarily disagree with you either. What I was trying to get at was more the idea that having a lot of options in a fight is a good thing. Like for the fighter, one idea I saw on the wizards boards was to to change the fighter bonus feats from just a straight line into a "feat tree." So you get the bonus feats at level 1 & 2 just like now; but at level 4 you'd choose 2 feats, an A and a B, only one of which could be active at a time. When you received another feat at level 6 you'd also choose an A & a B feat, and you could have either both A or both B feats active. It would eventually split out to even more branches, I just don't remember the specifics as I can't find the thread.

So for the paladin class to be redesigned I believe 2 things need to happen:

A) There should be a good reason to take the class all the way to twenty.

B) There should be valid combat options for the class in many situations. (regardless of whether they are special abilities, or spells, etc.)

Triaxx
2007-01-13, 08:34 PM
Perhaps we should focus on the Paladin's defenses? Being horsemen they have no need to carry a Tower Shield, nor does a buckler help much. Medium and Large shields are designed for horsemen. Why not give them Improved Shield Bash for free at level 6. Give them an AC Bonus while wearing heavy armor, and allow them to apply the mounts Dex bonus while fighting from the back of their special mount. I debate whether or not to give them a bonus to charging with a lance while mounted. Though getting hit by a charging knight wearing 70+ pounds of armor isn't exactly going to be a love tap.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-24, 09:41 PM
I'm not quite ready to let this thread die. Not before there's a completed rough draft, anyway. I took another look at the paladin, and I'm thinking that if we take the core pally, and change the progression of spells so that fourth level paladin spells are seventh or so cleric levels, or we can simply steal the bard progression. I've always thought that paladins need to have more access to buffs and healing power.

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-25, 01:55 AM
Buffs certainly, but I think the hardcore healing should be left to clerics and druids.

Triaxx
2007-01-25, 10:35 AM
Remove disease is annoyingly useless as it is. Perhaps we should leave out the pure HP restoring spells and focus on the lesser effects. A paladin won't get Cure Serious wounds, but would pick up Remove Curses and Diseases.

Cure Light Wounds, would be alright, as would the Mass version. Perhaps Protection Domain as a Cleric of half level?

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-25, 02:38 PM
Giving Paladins access to more divine spells isn't a bad idea but giving them access to level 7 cleric spell's probably is. On the other hand, giving them access to cleric domains is a much better idea. Maybe what we're looking for isn't spells but access to domain powers and the original paladin spells.

elliott20
2007-01-25, 03:45 PM
In the 3.0 splat Defenders of the Faith, there is a spell chain called "Aspects of the Deity" which made starts to give the caster semblance to their diety.

Some of the suggestions here reminds me of that.

I think the strongest form of "Aspects of the Deity" gives you

- wings, just as people have suggested
- Damage Reduction
- Resistance against various energy damage
- an extra smite, if I'm not mistaken

I think this would be a good chain to add into the paladin's progression, where at say, level 7, they get lesser aspects, at level 14, aspects, and at level 20, greater aspects.

This would bring the paladin closer to the idea of a religious holy warrior then a secular beacon of justice.

otherwise, I would suggest some kind of power that allows them to perform some extremely heroic feat. (either some kind of power that allows them to apply their CHA bonus to an action or some other such.)

Fax Celestis
2007-01-25, 03:52 PM
Aspect of the Deity was remade and appears in the Spell Compendium.

Triaxx
2007-01-25, 09:23 PM
Besides right now we're working out a template for rebuilding the entire thing from scratch.

elliott20
2007-01-26, 11:29 AM
so what is the central concept you guys suggest?

The first thing we need to address is whether or not we want a specific type of paladin to emerge here. How much customization do we want to allow the player in his paladin progression? do we want to go the route of the ranger and allow the players to develop along a certain path line of their choosing or are we just going to place a single linear progression?

second, what kind of paladin do we want from this? Or rather, where are we drawing our inspiration from in this case? Do we want the smiting paladin, the defender paladin, the leader paladin, the templar, the aura paladin, or some other variant? (hammerdins anyone?)

Matthew
2007-01-26, 06:14 PM
I'm certainly thinking Galahad type [i.e. Secular Warrior with religious asperations].

We are also considering different power levels [i.e. a Tome of Battle version and a version more in line with the Core Classes]

Triaxx
2007-01-26, 06:25 PM
The Barbariandin Dwarf, dual-wielding Dwarven Waraxes.