Lorsa
2013-10-26, 04:15 PM
I couldn't quite figure out where to post this, so I was hoping that making it friendly banter would alleviate some of severe tones in this post. Hopefully it is the right place.
So, during my time here I have noticed that some discussions aren’t quite as constructive as they could be and that there seem to be a distinct lack of guidance for good forum and discussion behavior. Also, some people seem to have trouble presenting their arguments properly or understanding other’s. For these reasons, and others, I thought it would be a good idea if we could construct a guide for people, to help with forum and discussion behavior. Feel free to treat it as simply that, a guideline, not an absolute truth. While I will start writing down my thoughts, it is my hope that other people will fill in the blanks and that together we can create something that will make discussion on this site even better for all of us.
Basic premise
In the end, you are only responsible for yourself and your own actions. Thus you should approach all discussions with the intent of changing your own views, not changing the views of others. If someone else has bad opinions backed up by poor arguments then that’s on them, not you. However, if you have bad opinions backed up by poor arguments then that is only your own fault. I believe the most constructive discussions are those where everyone approach with an open mind and a willingness to test their believes and to change them. Furthermore, if someone is behaving poorly it doesn’t give you an excuse to. You are responsible for yourself.
The importance of language
For all types of language based communication, it is not only what you say that matters but also how you say it. Why this matters is difficult to explain in a short text but I will try.
First we have understanding the message itself. If you are using poor sentence or paragraph construction it is quite possible people won’t understand what you are trying to say. Secondly there is the matter of how you come across. The way you communicate will, whether you are aware of it or not, paint a picture about yourself. If you’re not aware of this and pay attention to how you speak, chances are people will get a different picture of you than the one you want. The third point builds on the second; people will listen to you more if you send a good picture as opposed to a bad and you want people to listen to you right?
On an internet forum this is even more important than among your friends as the only thing people have to judge you from is the text you write.
Basic writing skills
Given the extent of spellcheckers available today, good spelling shouldn’t be an issue. A few mistakes here and there doesn’t matter bt ther is a lmit when tings strt loking werd. Capitalization should also be a no issue; there is no excuse not to start a new sentence properly. Grammar can be a bit trickier especially for non-native speakers such as myself but a basic understanding isn’t that hard to get. Oh, and let’s not forget one important thing; try not to start with the same word two sentences in a row. It doesn’t look good.
The most difficult thing, but also the most important, is paragraph structure. Dividing your text into easily accessible chunks will not only make it easier to follow but also easier for other people to quote if they want to reply to you. It is very hard to come up with a fast and easy rule for when to start a new paragraph, it is very subjective but a good guideline is; whenever you start talking about something new.
If you have too many or too few paragraphs your text will look strange.
I mean, people will assume you have started arguing a new point or talk about something else.
Even if you haven’t. But then again, not starting a new paragraph when you should will also look weird, people might get confused as to what you’re really talking about and your text might end up looking like a large unreadable mess.
You will notice I didn’t mention “using correct words”. I hoped that was obvious as there is no reason whatsoever to write things like “I’ll b there 4 u” instead of “I’ll be there for you”. The extra time it takes to write those letters are minimal and if you can’t take the time to say things with proper words it’s probably not important enough to say in the first place. Abbreviations are ok, but “u” is not an accepted abbreviation for “you”. Really, I promise.
Abbreviations and uncommon terms
The purpose of your communication is to be understood and as such abbreviations or terms that aren’t in the English dictionary should be explained when first used in a thread. You might believe everyone knows them simply because they’ve been used before but not everyone will ask when they don’t understand something and this is a large forum so new people will turn up.
As an example, I didn’t know what OP (Original Poster) meant for a very long time. I tried to read it from context and got pretty close, but pretty close is not the same as correct. It really isn’t that hard to write “Original Poster (OP)” the first time it is mentioned and will avoid so many misunderstandings. Similarly, not everyone here reads the same pages you do or socialize in the same circles, so if you want to be understood by as many people as possible (and you do), it is counterproductive to use terms from example TVTropes without explanation. Like with abbreviations, once they’ve been explained in a thread, it should be ok to use them.
Clarity
In order for constructive discussion to take place, everyone needs to understand the topic at hand. This follows on abbreviations and uncommon terms but is more general than that; always explain what you’re talking about to avoid confusion. For example, if you have a thread that says “let’s discuss which fruits are the best”, not everyone might know what a fruit is or maybe you only want to limit it to some fruits so then in your post you should explain what count as fruits for the purpose of this thread. This will help bring clarity to the subject and avoid two people arguing over what is actually two different things.
Also, when you join in a discussion, pay attention to how things are defined and what is meant to be discussed. If someone says they want to talk about which is best, apples or pears and you say “orange” you’re not really participating in the discussion. Nor does it help if you say “orange is a fruit too” because the person who started the discussion has already set the limits. Follow them.
Insults
I would like to say “insults are never ok” but unfortunately no matter how hard you try, chances are someone will be insulted by something you say. The important thing to remember in such cases is for the one that gets insulted to try and interpret what was said with the assumption that whoever wrote it was aiming to be respectful and for the person who was insulting to calmly explain that it wasn’t meant to be insulting. Let me try to give you an example.
A: “I can’t understand how someone could like apples.”
B: “What do you mean?! I like apples! Do you mean that it there’s something wrong with me?”
A: “No, no! I just meant that I don’t like the taste and have trouble understanding what is so alluring with them. It’s perfectly ok if you like apples, I don’t mind, I just don’t understand it.”
B: “Oh ok, sorry, it’s just that I often hear people say that those who like apples are stupid.”
A: “I’m sorry. That’s not at all what I was trying to say.”
B: “I realize that now, sorry for overreacting.”
Personal insults are never ok though. Never. Not even a little. Back-handed insults such as “people who think apples are good are stupid” are also a big no-no. While you might think there’s a difference between the above and saying “you are stupid because you like apples”, there really isn’t. You called a person stupid so it’s a personal insult.
If you really have to use terms that can obviously be insulting, phrase things in a way so that you don’t say anything about the person in question but your perception or opinion about it. Things such as “I think that posting how much you like apples in every thread is a bit rude” or better yet “when you post about apples in every thread you come across to me as a bit rude”. Those statements aren’t trying to state an objective truth but rather describe your view with the acknowledgement that you may be wrong.
We are here to discuss issues, which is best done using arguments not personal insults. This should be obvious but unfortunately it seems it isn’t. When you use insults to try and further your point all that happens is that you paint yourself in a negative light and fewer people will end up listening to you. To summarize; don’t use insults.
Opinions vs. facts
There is a difference between opinions and facts. Facts are things that can be shown with empirical data or evidence whereas opinions are more or less baseless assumptions or personal beliefs. It’s certainly okay to have opinions but you need to be clear when you speak about one over the other. While there seem to be a few different schools for this, I believe that if you write your opinions as facts you come across as implying that yours is the only opinion that matters and that what you personally believe is objective truth and everyone should simply bow down to your will. If that’s what you want to say, go right ahead, but it isn’t helping any constructive discussion.
So how do you differentiate between opinions from facts? Well, it’s really easy! When you write a fact simply say “it is” or something similar and when writing an opinion say “I think” or “I believe” or “in my opinion”. Easy, isn’t it? No reason at all not to be aware of it.
Furthermore, if you state a fact you need to be able to back it up with evidence or your whole argument can easily be refuted by someone showing a counter-example or a true fact with evidence. You end up trapping yourself.
Some people think that “as it is obvious when you speak of something that can only be your opinion it isn’t necessary to be clear”. Read between the lines and all that. Personally I believe it’s much better to read on the lines because that is where the text is located and two people can end up reading vastly different things “between the lines”. You want to be understood, do you not? Clear differentiating between opinions and facts goes a long way towards that goal.
Arguments and logic
While opinions are what you believe, arguments represent why you believe it. For example, if you say “I like apples because X” then “X” is your argument why apples are good. It should go without saying that you should explain your arguments in as clear manner as possible, because those are what you are in the discussion to test, to see if your opinions hold up to scrutiny.
When you read someone else’s arguments, pay attention to what is said and don’t just skim over the text or else you run into the risk of arguing strawmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). That will never lead to any constructive discussion and is just a waste of everyone’s time, not to mention it can make you appear as a person who doesn’t really pay attention to what people actually say. To give an example:
A: “I like apples best.”
B: “What’s wrong with pears?”
A: “There’s nothing wrong with pears.”
B: “But you just said you hated pears!”
A: “No, I said I like apples best.”
B: “Yeah! What’s so wrong with pears! They are just as sweet! What’s with all the pear-hating?!”
A: “…”
So now that we understand arguments, where does logic enter into it? Well, logic is what people are going to use to deconstruct your arguments and see if they hold up. Trying to argue why something is good because of an unrelated reason is illogical and not going to convince anyone (and it should un-convince you so to speak). Logic helps us with knowing when two things are not mutually exclusive or when two presented arguments contradict each other.
While logic is a great tool, but by itself it will take you nowhere and can in fact be used to deconstruct itself. Logic is in need of certain assumptions or axioms that you can’t prove to be true but simply accept. From these axioms, logic will be used to lead you to further beliefs or opinions that can be based on those assumptions. That is why a good discussion should be about figuring out what assumptions the other people are basing their opinions on. Not only will it help you to see if their arguments hold up based on those assumptions, but some people have core beliefs that will be mutually exclusive when taken to their logical conclusion, they just haven’t noticed it yet.
Proof
Since we’ve touched on the subjects of facts I believe it is relevant to bring up the issue of proof. Strict scientific proof is something you can never get. If you ever hear “this is scientifically proven”, it is wrong. What is true is that “there has been a lot of empirical evidence that show a correlation between X and Y and so far no one have been able to disprove it”. All science can ever do is to disprove theories and what remains is our current working models. If someone asks you for “proof” what they really mean is “empirical data to substantiate the claim”.
Why is this important? Well, if you make a claim such as “apples are the tastiest fruit” it is very easy for someone to disprove your claim simply by saying “I like pears better” thus rendering your whole argument useless. When you make a statement of fact, remember that while you cannot prove it completely, you may have to show some evidence to back it up. Statistical data, scientific articles or if all else fails, Wikipedia (not a great source but better than none).
It is usually much easier to disprove a supposed fact than it is to validate it, since all you need is one piece of evidence of the contrary. This is one of the reasons why it is better to say “can lead to” than “will lead to”. In the former case, you only need one example that shows this and in the latter you have to prove it will happen always (which is impossible). So be careful not to make claims you can’t back up.
End note
Obviously this needs a bit of work, but I think it’s a decent starting point. Does anyone have opinions on more things that need to be included or something that is superfluous or that you think is wrong? What I want to accomplish is a better climate on the forum and more constructive discussions. Perhaps I should add a topic about rude behaviors in general such as coming to a thread, stating an opinion and then saying you are done with the discussion and not letting people argue your points? Anyway, what do you think?
So, during my time here I have noticed that some discussions aren’t quite as constructive as they could be and that there seem to be a distinct lack of guidance for good forum and discussion behavior. Also, some people seem to have trouble presenting their arguments properly or understanding other’s. For these reasons, and others, I thought it would be a good idea if we could construct a guide for people, to help with forum and discussion behavior. Feel free to treat it as simply that, a guideline, not an absolute truth. While I will start writing down my thoughts, it is my hope that other people will fill in the blanks and that together we can create something that will make discussion on this site even better for all of us.
Basic premise
In the end, you are only responsible for yourself and your own actions. Thus you should approach all discussions with the intent of changing your own views, not changing the views of others. If someone else has bad opinions backed up by poor arguments then that’s on them, not you. However, if you have bad opinions backed up by poor arguments then that is only your own fault. I believe the most constructive discussions are those where everyone approach with an open mind and a willingness to test their believes and to change them. Furthermore, if someone is behaving poorly it doesn’t give you an excuse to. You are responsible for yourself.
The importance of language
For all types of language based communication, it is not only what you say that matters but also how you say it. Why this matters is difficult to explain in a short text but I will try.
First we have understanding the message itself. If you are using poor sentence or paragraph construction it is quite possible people won’t understand what you are trying to say. Secondly there is the matter of how you come across. The way you communicate will, whether you are aware of it or not, paint a picture about yourself. If you’re not aware of this and pay attention to how you speak, chances are people will get a different picture of you than the one you want. The third point builds on the second; people will listen to you more if you send a good picture as opposed to a bad and you want people to listen to you right?
On an internet forum this is even more important than among your friends as the only thing people have to judge you from is the text you write.
Basic writing skills
Given the extent of spellcheckers available today, good spelling shouldn’t be an issue. A few mistakes here and there doesn’t matter bt ther is a lmit when tings strt loking werd. Capitalization should also be a no issue; there is no excuse not to start a new sentence properly. Grammar can be a bit trickier especially for non-native speakers such as myself but a basic understanding isn’t that hard to get. Oh, and let’s not forget one important thing; try not to start with the same word two sentences in a row. It doesn’t look good.
The most difficult thing, but also the most important, is paragraph structure. Dividing your text into easily accessible chunks will not only make it easier to follow but also easier for other people to quote if they want to reply to you. It is very hard to come up with a fast and easy rule for when to start a new paragraph, it is very subjective but a good guideline is; whenever you start talking about something new.
If you have too many or too few paragraphs your text will look strange.
I mean, people will assume you have started arguing a new point or talk about something else.
Even if you haven’t. But then again, not starting a new paragraph when you should will also look weird, people might get confused as to what you’re really talking about and your text might end up looking like a large unreadable mess.
You will notice I didn’t mention “using correct words”. I hoped that was obvious as there is no reason whatsoever to write things like “I’ll b there 4 u” instead of “I’ll be there for you”. The extra time it takes to write those letters are minimal and if you can’t take the time to say things with proper words it’s probably not important enough to say in the first place. Abbreviations are ok, but “u” is not an accepted abbreviation for “you”. Really, I promise.
Abbreviations and uncommon terms
The purpose of your communication is to be understood and as such abbreviations or terms that aren’t in the English dictionary should be explained when first used in a thread. You might believe everyone knows them simply because they’ve been used before but not everyone will ask when they don’t understand something and this is a large forum so new people will turn up.
As an example, I didn’t know what OP (Original Poster) meant for a very long time. I tried to read it from context and got pretty close, but pretty close is not the same as correct. It really isn’t that hard to write “Original Poster (OP)” the first time it is mentioned and will avoid so many misunderstandings. Similarly, not everyone here reads the same pages you do or socialize in the same circles, so if you want to be understood by as many people as possible (and you do), it is counterproductive to use terms from example TVTropes without explanation. Like with abbreviations, once they’ve been explained in a thread, it should be ok to use them.
Clarity
In order for constructive discussion to take place, everyone needs to understand the topic at hand. This follows on abbreviations and uncommon terms but is more general than that; always explain what you’re talking about to avoid confusion. For example, if you have a thread that says “let’s discuss which fruits are the best”, not everyone might know what a fruit is or maybe you only want to limit it to some fruits so then in your post you should explain what count as fruits for the purpose of this thread. This will help bring clarity to the subject and avoid two people arguing over what is actually two different things.
Also, when you join in a discussion, pay attention to how things are defined and what is meant to be discussed. If someone says they want to talk about which is best, apples or pears and you say “orange” you’re not really participating in the discussion. Nor does it help if you say “orange is a fruit too” because the person who started the discussion has already set the limits. Follow them.
Insults
I would like to say “insults are never ok” but unfortunately no matter how hard you try, chances are someone will be insulted by something you say. The important thing to remember in such cases is for the one that gets insulted to try and interpret what was said with the assumption that whoever wrote it was aiming to be respectful and for the person who was insulting to calmly explain that it wasn’t meant to be insulting. Let me try to give you an example.
A: “I can’t understand how someone could like apples.”
B: “What do you mean?! I like apples! Do you mean that it there’s something wrong with me?”
A: “No, no! I just meant that I don’t like the taste and have trouble understanding what is so alluring with them. It’s perfectly ok if you like apples, I don’t mind, I just don’t understand it.”
B: “Oh ok, sorry, it’s just that I often hear people say that those who like apples are stupid.”
A: “I’m sorry. That’s not at all what I was trying to say.”
B: “I realize that now, sorry for overreacting.”
Personal insults are never ok though. Never. Not even a little. Back-handed insults such as “people who think apples are good are stupid” are also a big no-no. While you might think there’s a difference between the above and saying “you are stupid because you like apples”, there really isn’t. You called a person stupid so it’s a personal insult.
If you really have to use terms that can obviously be insulting, phrase things in a way so that you don’t say anything about the person in question but your perception or opinion about it. Things such as “I think that posting how much you like apples in every thread is a bit rude” or better yet “when you post about apples in every thread you come across to me as a bit rude”. Those statements aren’t trying to state an objective truth but rather describe your view with the acknowledgement that you may be wrong.
We are here to discuss issues, which is best done using arguments not personal insults. This should be obvious but unfortunately it seems it isn’t. When you use insults to try and further your point all that happens is that you paint yourself in a negative light and fewer people will end up listening to you. To summarize; don’t use insults.
Opinions vs. facts
There is a difference between opinions and facts. Facts are things that can be shown with empirical data or evidence whereas opinions are more or less baseless assumptions or personal beliefs. It’s certainly okay to have opinions but you need to be clear when you speak about one over the other. While there seem to be a few different schools for this, I believe that if you write your opinions as facts you come across as implying that yours is the only opinion that matters and that what you personally believe is objective truth and everyone should simply bow down to your will. If that’s what you want to say, go right ahead, but it isn’t helping any constructive discussion.
So how do you differentiate between opinions from facts? Well, it’s really easy! When you write a fact simply say “it is” or something similar and when writing an opinion say “I think” or “I believe” or “in my opinion”. Easy, isn’t it? No reason at all not to be aware of it.
Furthermore, if you state a fact you need to be able to back it up with evidence or your whole argument can easily be refuted by someone showing a counter-example or a true fact with evidence. You end up trapping yourself.
Some people think that “as it is obvious when you speak of something that can only be your opinion it isn’t necessary to be clear”. Read between the lines and all that. Personally I believe it’s much better to read on the lines because that is where the text is located and two people can end up reading vastly different things “between the lines”. You want to be understood, do you not? Clear differentiating between opinions and facts goes a long way towards that goal.
Arguments and logic
While opinions are what you believe, arguments represent why you believe it. For example, if you say “I like apples because X” then “X” is your argument why apples are good. It should go without saying that you should explain your arguments in as clear manner as possible, because those are what you are in the discussion to test, to see if your opinions hold up to scrutiny.
When you read someone else’s arguments, pay attention to what is said and don’t just skim over the text or else you run into the risk of arguing strawmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). That will never lead to any constructive discussion and is just a waste of everyone’s time, not to mention it can make you appear as a person who doesn’t really pay attention to what people actually say. To give an example:
A: “I like apples best.”
B: “What’s wrong with pears?”
A: “There’s nothing wrong with pears.”
B: “But you just said you hated pears!”
A: “No, I said I like apples best.”
B: “Yeah! What’s so wrong with pears! They are just as sweet! What’s with all the pear-hating?!”
A: “…”
So now that we understand arguments, where does logic enter into it? Well, logic is what people are going to use to deconstruct your arguments and see if they hold up. Trying to argue why something is good because of an unrelated reason is illogical and not going to convince anyone (and it should un-convince you so to speak). Logic helps us with knowing when two things are not mutually exclusive or when two presented arguments contradict each other.
While logic is a great tool, but by itself it will take you nowhere and can in fact be used to deconstruct itself. Logic is in need of certain assumptions or axioms that you can’t prove to be true but simply accept. From these axioms, logic will be used to lead you to further beliefs or opinions that can be based on those assumptions. That is why a good discussion should be about figuring out what assumptions the other people are basing their opinions on. Not only will it help you to see if their arguments hold up based on those assumptions, but some people have core beliefs that will be mutually exclusive when taken to their logical conclusion, they just haven’t noticed it yet.
Proof
Since we’ve touched on the subjects of facts I believe it is relevant to bring up the issue of proof. Strict scientific proof is something you can never get. If you ever hear “this is scientifically proven”, it is wrong. What is true is that “there has been a lot of empirical evidence that show a correlation between X and Y and so far no one have been able to disprove it”. All science can ever do is to disprove theories and what remains is our current working models. If someone asks you for “proof” what they really mean is “empirical data to substantiate the claim”.
Why is this important? Well, if you make a claim such as “apples are the tastiest fruit” it is very easy for someone to disprove your claim simply by saying “I like pears better” thus rendering your whole argument useless. When you make a statement of fact, remember that while you cannot prove it completely, you may have to show some evidence to back it up. Statistical data, scientific articles or if all else fails, Wikipedia (not a great source but better than none).
It is usually much easier to disprove a supposed fact than it is to validate it, since all you need is one piece of evidence of the contrary. This is one of the reasons why it is better to say “can lead to” than “will lead to”. In the former case, you only need one example that shows this and in the latter you have to prove it will happen always (which is impossible). So be careful not to make claims you can’t back up.
End note
Obviously this needs a bit of work, but I think it’s a decent starting point. Does anyone have opinions on more things that need to be included or something that is superfluous or that you think is wrong? What I want to accomplish is a better climate on the forum and more constructive discussions. Perhaps I should add a topic about rude behaviors in general such as coming to a thread, stating an opinion and then saying you are done with the discussion and not letting people argue your points? Anyway, what do you think?