Really odd prc's for a duskblade to go into?

[CyberThread]

I don't need top tier suggestions.. I need top weird suggestions.


What are ..odd choices for a "casting" prc that a duskblade can get into.

[Lord Haart]

Focluhan lyrist?

[Captnq]

Well, HERE (http://www.uploadmb.com/dw.php?id=1382631190)'s a spreadsheet of all the spellcasting classes.

or you can read it online HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg73050#msg73050).

I recommend the spreadsheet if you can read excel. Much easier to filter.

[Fax Celestis]

Renegade Mastermaker gets my vote.

[Captnq]

So, lets see...

These add to your caster levels:

Adds to any type of spellcaster

Acolyte of the Skin
Alchemy Savant
Alienist
Arachnomancer
Arcane Trickster
Ardent Dilettante
Auspician
Bane of Infidels
Candle Caster
Celestial Mystic
Child of the Night
Combat Medic
Cyran Avenger
Darkmask
Deep Diviner
Diabolist
Disciple of Asmodeus
Dispassionate Watcher
Divine Agent
Divine Oracle
Divine Prankster
Doomlord
Dracolyte
Dragon Slayer
Dragonheart Mage
Dragonsong Lyrist
Dread Witch
Drow Judicator
Durthan
Dweomerkeeper
Earth Dreamer
Effigy Master
Elemental Archon
Elemental Savant
Entropist
Exalted Arcanist
Exorcist of the Silver Flame
Fatespinner
Fiend-Blooded
Fiendbinder
Fist of Raziel
Fleshwarper
Fortune's Friend
Frost Mage
Geomancer
Goldeye
Gray Hand Enforcer
Guild Wizard
Halruaan Magehound
Harper Agent
Harper Mage
Harper Paragon
Hathran
Heartwarder
Heir of Siberys
Hexer
High Elemental Binder
Impure Prince
Incantatrix
Insidious Corruptor
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign
Knight of the Blue Moon
Legacy Champion
Lions of Talisid
Lord of Tides
Loremaster
Luckstealer
Maester
Mage-Killer
Magical Trickster
Malconvoker
Martyred Champion of Ilmater
Master Alchemist
Master of Masks
Master of Shadow
Master of the Yuirwood
Master Vampire
Moonstar Agent
Mystic Wanderer
Mythic Exemplar
Nightcloak
Nosomatic Chirurgeon
Ollam
Oozemaster
Paragnostic Apostle
Planeshifter
Platinum Knight
Primal Scholar
Prophet of Erathaol
Rage Mage
Raumathari Battlemage
Renegade Mastermaker
Rimefire Witch
Ruathars
Sacred Exorcist
Sacred Warder
Sanctified One
Scar Enforcer
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Sentinel of Bharrai
Serpent Slayer
Shadow Adept
Shadowcraft Mage
Shadowcrafter
Shadowspy
Shapeshifter
Sharn Skymage
Singer of Concordance
Skylord
Spelldancer
Spellwarp Sniper
Squire of Legend
Stormcaster
Stormsinger
Strifeleader
Swanmay
Sword Dancer
Tainted Sorcerer
Talon of Tiamat
Tamer of Beasts
Techsmith
Thaumaturgist
Thrall of Demogorgon
Thrall of Eltab
Thrall of Graz’zt
Thrall of Orcus
Topaz Guardian
Troubadour of Stars
Unbound Scroll
Uncanny Trickster
Unholy Ravager
Verdant Lord
Vermin Keeper
Vermin Lord
Visonary Seeker
Void Disciple
Walker in the Waste
War Wizard of Cormyr
Wayfarer Guide
Wearer of Purple
Winterhaunt of Iborighu
Witch Hunter
Yuan-Ti Cultist
Zhentarim Skymage

Requires Arcane Caster

Abjurant Champion
Anima Mage
Arcane Devotee
Archmage
Bladesinger
Blood Magus
Bonded Summoner
Cataclysm Mage
Cloaked Dancer
Coiled Cabalist
Daggerspell Mage
Dracolexi
Dragon Prophet
Eldritch Knight
Escalation Mage
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Geometer
Green Star Adept
Halruaan Elder
Havoc Mage
Holy Scourge
Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Jade Phoenic Mage
Knight Phantom
Lorediver
Mage of the Arcane Order
Magelord
Master Transmogrifists
Mindbender
Naga Overlord
Nightmare Spinner
Olin Gisir
Pact-Bound Adept
Pale Master
Prestige Bard
Rainbow Servant
Recaster
Red Wizard
Runesmith
Sand Shaper
Savant Aboleth
Sea Witch
Silver Pyromancer
Spell Scion
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Spellsinger
Spellsword
Tainted Scholar
Unseen Seer
Urban Savant
Virtuoso
Warweaver
Wild Mage
Wild Soul
Windwright Captain
Wyrm Wizard


These are alternate spellcasters that use Int as a base stat

Celebrant of Sharess
Corrupt Avenger
Court Herald
Demonologist
Divine Crusader
Emissaries of Barachiel
Fatemaker
Harper Scout
Knight of the Weave
Mortal Hunter
Nar Demonbinder
Sublime Chord
Suel Arcanamach
Vigilante

[CyberThread]

think we went from odd, to just list everything that has caster levels.....

[Amphetryon]

Duskblade into Ollam is pretty weird, in my opinion.

[123456789blaaa]

Duskveil
Duskblade 13 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
•Feat intensive, but you get a hella lot for those feats.
Needs:
•Spell Focus (abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration), Skill Focus (spellcraft)
•Illumian w/ the Krau sigil & Improved or Heighten Spell
Characteristics:
•Casts as a Duskblade 20
•BAB 16
•All seven veils, double warding, etc.
Notes:
•Use a reach weapon (which Duskblades usually do anyway) like a glaive. You've got really good defenses now. Incidentially, "Duskveil" is one of the random illumian names you can generate. Nifty.

This build made me blink when I first saw it. I'd say it qualifies.

[Crake]

pick up arcane disciple for the celerity domain (or extra spell[haste] if your DM allows it), get into swiftblade

[Kennisiou]

You guys are doing it all wrong. You're listing PrCs that actually do things Duskblades appreciate sometimes. You're not thinking outside of the box enough.

OP: dip five levels druid in order to grab Blighter levels.

[Callin]

Holy Scourge would be weird. From Complete Mage.

Pale Master from Libris Mortis

[The Trickster]

I vote for Sublime Chord. Use your ability to make touch spells into melee attacks to cast Otto's Irresitable Dance while smacking someone with a quarterstaff. Call the quarterstaff your "crazy dancing stick".

[Zombulian]

Teflammajamadingdong.
Ruamathari Battlemage.
Black Flame Zealot (may require divine. Remember to wield your kukri wrong!)
Spellsinger.
Spelldancer.
Mage Killer.
Spellfire Channeler.
War Wizard.

[Duke Arioch]

My favorite PrC was recaster when I played changeling duskblade. wraithstrike, venomfire, hunter's eye, shivering touch are just some of the awesome spells that can be devastating in the hands of a duskblade.

[ArqArturo]

My favorite PrC was recaster when I played changeling duskblade. wraithstrike, venomfire, hunter's eye, shivering touch are just some of the awesome spells that can be devastating in the hands of a duskblade.

Recaster works well, especially because it adds extra spells to the repertoire.

I think any PrC that adds spells from outside your lists are good (sandshaper, exalted arcanist, mage of the arcane order, although they don't really do that...).

[visigani]

If we're looking for "anti-duskblade"...

How about Cataclysm mage...


Who's abilities include Cataclysm of Flesh, "..or be touched by the lemon rains and mindless star-worms of the Realm of Madness, forced to endure as their own flesh melts away and rains upward to patter on the ceiling as they deliquesce."

[ArcturusV]

Eunuch Warlock? I'd think that would count.

[Coidzor]

Can Duskblades get into Sandshaper?


Black Flame Zealot (may require divine. Remember to wield your kukri wrong!)

Hmm? :smallconfused:

[Xuldarinar]

Duskblade 13/Silver Pyromancer 5/Holy Scourge 2


Since it requires turn undead, I find the best route is though feats.

Necromantic Bloodline (which gives you some spells known and cuts off a school you have no spells in anyways) + Kin Mastery (Take as your 9th or 12th level feat. 1/day turn or rebuke of your bloodline, in this case undead)

Considering the path to get to it without dips, I find it odd. Focus on your fire spells, and you can really unleash damage. I find Energy Substitution (fire) to be a must have. Full-channeling of smiting chain lightning (fire) can be pretty brutal.

Going into Holy Scourge after compliments/reinforces the flavor, and it can be interesting to combine Smiting Spell with Arcane Smite.

[Zombulian]

Hmm? :smallconfused:

All of the Black Flame Zealot art no matter which book it's from has the BFZ holding his Kukri upside down. Which is just not a way you can hold a Kukri.

[Coidzor]

All of the Black Flame Zealot art no matter which book it's from has the BFZ holding his Kukri upside down. Which is just not a way you can hold a Kukri.

I guess that's better than what I was fearing, that they wield them *backwards* or something.

[ArqArturo]

Eunuch Warlock? I'd think that would count.

Only if the character's name is Varys.

[gorfnab]

Arcane Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.20) - third post down

4 levels of Mage of the Arcane Order is surprisingly nice for Duskblades.

[Zombulian]

I guess that's better than what I was fearing, that they wield them *backwards* or something.

Might as well be backwards. Can't get any real use of em when they're upside down.

[Xuldarinar]

Might as well be backwards. Can't get any real use of em when they're upside down.

You certainly can use Kukri reverse gripped. Its not necessarily optimal, and there are blades that function much better for reverse grip, but you can use them that way.

[Zombulian]

You certainly can use Kukri reverse gripped. Its not necessarily optimal, and there are blades that function much better for reverse grip, but you can use them that way.

Well I mean, you can hold an axe upside down too.

[Gnome Alone]

Can Duskblades get into Sandshaper?

Is the Space Pope reptilian?


You certainly can use Kukri reverse gripped. Its not necessarily optimal, and there are blades that function much better for reverse grip, but you can use them that way.

That guy I am wants to know if there are actually rules regarding which way you hold a weapon, cuz otherwise: huh?

[Matticussama]

I vote for Sublime Chord. Use your ability to make touch spells into melee attacks to cast Otto's Irresitable Dance while smacking someone with a quarterstaff. Call the quarterstaff your "crazy dancing stick".

This. So much this. I want to build that character now.

[Vaz]

Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 5. Even with only 7ths, you're still full attacking Withering Palm. Combine with DMM Persisted Greater Consumptive Field and inflict around 75 Con damage in a turn.

Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 4: Wild Shape, Animal Companion of a 10th level Druid (woth Natural Bond) with the abilities as if you were 13th level Wizard.

Spontaneous Fast Healing, 4th level Druid spells, can use your AC to deliver touch spells as well, Duskblade 17 spellcasting.

[CyberThread]

So what....

are we looking at a duskblade /adjustchamp


Then a warrior skald to get those songs at a fast progression(bard songs/2 not everything else) finished with sublime chord

[Xuldarinar]

That guy I am wants to know if there are actually rules regarding which way you hold a weapon, cuz otherwise: huh?

I was speaking realisticly. I know of no actual rule difference. Reverse grip is when one wields a bladed weapon with the blade being opposite to one's thumb.

[CyberThread]

there are manuvers and feats for hitting folks with a pummle or such.

I would say it falls under the improvised weapons bit, if you are not using a weapon right, then you are not using the part that hurts others.

[Xuldarinar]

there are manuvers and feats for hitting folks with a pummle or such.

I would say it falls under the improvised weapons bit, if you are not using a weapon right, then you are not using the part that hurts others.

Well, in this case you are still striking with the blade, its just a different style.

[Zombulian]

there are manuvers and feats for hitting folks with a pummle or such.

I would say it falls under the improvised weapons bit, if you are not using a weapon right, then you are not using the part that hurts others.

I don't think you guys actually understand what me and Xul are talking about. In the art for BFZ, they hold their Kukris in a way that is inefficient to the way you get powerful strikes from a Kukri.

[CyberThread]

real assassins, use daggers anyways.

[ArqArturo]

Kurkris would be better.

[CyberThread]

crossbow would be better

[Xuldarinar]

Laser pistols would be better.

[CyberThread]

eberron sky ships cannons FIRE!





DM: Okay, the captain on that ship has rogue levels, the iron balls they fired at you are bigger then you, so you are caught flattened .. I mean flat footed.


Eberron Sky Ships gets 5d6 sneak damage ontop of 40d6 cannon fire.

[Xuldarinar]

Well… that escalated quickly.


Is it too late to mention the scorpion tail whip?

[Coidzor]

So what....

are we looking at a duskblade /adjustchamp


Then a warrior skald to get those songs at a fast progression(bard songs/2 not everything else) finished with sublime chord

Duskblade 13/Warrior Skald or Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4, I'd think.

If you wanted it to still be a Duskblade as we know it.

Otherwise you could do something kooky like going from Duskblade into a scholarly magical class, like Loremaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm).

[WhamBamSam]

It's not a PrC and the LA+4 makes it not really that great, but I'm rather fond of Dracolich Dragonwrought Kobold Duskblades, because the Dracolich version of Paralyzing Touch forces a save with every physical attack, so enemies have to make a save against the spell he's channeling and the lich paralysis every time they get hit.

I've been toying with the idea of a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 3 (Enlightened Fist 4 with LA buyoff), whose schitck is to channel Twinned Born of the Three Thunders Shocking Grasp to pile on stunning/paralysis. As of right now, it's running out of feats, but a Monk dip could fix that if you don't have to worry about multiclass penalties, and can buy off the LA so you still get to Enlightened Fist 3 for an extra channeled spell on one of the unarmed attacks.

Something like...

Monk 1 - Dragonwrought, Improved Unarmed Strike (Bonus), Stunning Fist (Bonus)
Dracolich LA+4
Duskblade 1
Duskblade 2 - Energy Substitution(Electricity), Combat Casting (Bonus)
Duskblade 3 -
Duskblade 4
Duskblade 5 - Born of the Three Thunders
Duskblade 6
Duskblade 7
Duskblade 8 - Twin Spell
Duskblade 9
Duskblade 10
Duskblade 11 - Arcane Thesis (Shocking Grasp)
LA Buyoff
Duskblade 12
Duskblade 13
Enlightened Fist 1 - Sun School
Enlightened Fist 2
Enlightened Fist 3


I believe that he's immune to the daze effect from Born of the Three Thunders by RAW, as Dracoliches are immune to electricity, and so he should be immune to his own Three Thunders spells, but I'm far from certain on this point, and I'm not sure exactly how to fix it if that's not true.

Sun School adds a confusion effect to any stunning from Stunning Fist or Three Thunders channeled through an unarmed attack, and lets him make a free attack when he pops in next to somebody via Dimension Door (which he can do as a swift action twice a day thanks to Quick Cast.

His full attack routine is something like this...

Full Attack Channeled Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp Flurry of Blows

Unarmed Strike +19 (+15 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Unarmed Strike +19 (+15 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Unarmed Strike +14 (+10 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Unarmed Strike +15 (+15 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp) + 6 (second Twinned Shocking Grasp from Enlightened Fist's Arcane Fist)) 4 saves against stun from the two Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Bite +14 (+10 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Claw +14 (+10 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch
Claw +14 (+10 - 2 (Flurry) +6 (Twinned Shocking Grasp)) 2 saves against stun from Twinned Three Thunders Shocking Grasp, save against paralysis from paralyzing touch

Sprinkle Stunning Fist attempts to taste, though he doesn't have as many of them as I'd like, and Arcane Fist costs one of them.

If you start the turn in a position to full attack and you need more hitting/stunning somewhere, you can Quick Cast Dimension Door and kick someone in the groin with Sun School, forcing three saves (the Full Attack channeling stays on for all attacks you make during your turn). If you can't make a Full Attack, Quick Cast Dimension Door puts you in range and you get your extra attack with only the single save from Paralyzing Touch, since the Full Attack channel won't be turned on yet.

If flaws are allowed, Kung Fu Genius would reduce his MAD, and Snap Kick would get an extra attack.

[Lyndworm]

Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 4: Wild Shape, Animal Companion of a 10th level Druid (woth Natural Bond) with the abilities as if you were 13th level Wizard.

Spontaneous Fast Healing, 4th level Druid spells, can use your AC to deliver touch spells as well, Duskblade 17 spellcasting.
Arcane Heirophant specifically doesn't grant wildshape if you don't already have it. It does, however, give you a companion familiar even if you don't already have a familiar (and maybe even if you don't already have an animal companion, depending on your interpretation). I'm not sure where you're getting "13th level Wizard" familiar abilities, either. Depending on your interpretation, your familiar abilities would be at either 3rd level or 16th level.

[Fable Wright]

Borrowing from Piggy Knowles's build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286800), going Duskblade 13/Nar Demonbinder 2/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty bizarre, as the spell lists and class features really do not do anything for each other.

Until you realize that you can take Dragon Magazine Bloodline feats. That, and the CL 27 Blasphemy/Holy Word/Chaos Hammer/Dictum.

[Vaz]

Arcane Heirophant specifically doesn't grant wildshape if you don't already have it. It does, however, give you a companion familiar even if you don't already have a familiar (and maybe even if you don't already have an animal companion, depending on your interpretation). I'm not sure where you're getting "13th level Wizard" familiar abilities, either. Depending on your interpretation, your familiar abilities would be at either 3rd level or 16th level.

Yet the example specifically states you do.

3rd level Wizard, 4th level druid, and 4th level AH has Wild Shape of an 8th level druid, IIRC.

But yeah, forgot to add the AH to my duskblade level, so count as 17th level for Familiar abilities. It references Arcane Caster level, then points you to the Familiar page. If your DM requires you to have a Familiar (you don't, nothing in the class states you must have a familiar, simply that you lose your familiar but the CF gains the abilities of a Familiar based on your CL) then you can burn a feat on Obtain Familiar.

[WhamBamSam]

For fun, here's a less stun happy, but probably more table friendly human version of the Enlightened Fist build. Use Silverbrow Human to qualify for Drakescale Husk on the Duskblade levels and Practical Metamagic, and be from some Dragonmarked house so you can get Mark of the Dauntless.

Monk 1 - Least Dragonmark (Any), Kung Fu Genius (Human), Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Stunning Fist (Monk)
Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes (Monk)
Duskblade 1 - Energy Substitution(Electricity)
Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (Duskblade)
Duskblade 3
Duskbade 4 - Mark of the Dauntless
Duskblade 5
Duskblade 6
Duskblade 7 - Born of the Three Thunders
Duskblade 8
Duskblade 9
Duskblade 10 - Twin Spell
Duskblade 11
Duskblade 12
Duskblade 13 - Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
Enlightened Fist 1
Enlightened Fist 2
Enlightened Fist 3 - Sun School
Enlightened Fist 4
Enlightened Fist 5

A flaw would nab Snap Kick as well, which would be really nice, especially with Sun School. Another could either be Arcane Thesis to ease the pain of Twin Spell a step further, or Arcane Disciple to expand your spell list. Celerity (seeing as you're using Mark of the Dauntless anyway), Polymorph (because Full Attack Channeling as a Hydra is cool), and a number of other spells could be very handy. Casts as a 17th level Duskblade, meaning it gets 5th level spells and you end up with 17 BAB for a 4th iterative. Make a Full Attack Flurries of Twinned Three Thunders Whatever, toss another Twinned Three Thunders spell on one of the attacks, and sprinkle in Stunning Fist as suits your fancy.

If you feel like going into the deep end of the alignment pool and getting a little cheesy, dedication to an Elder Evil could get you reach, extra natural attacks through which to channel things, and immunity to mind affecting.

[ArqArturo]

Speaking of monks, wasn't there a PrC of Forgotten Realms that was all about monks that only increased flurry of blows and IUS damage, but it gave none of the Ki? I don't remember the name right, Shou something, I think.

[Norin]

Speaking of monks, wasn't there a PrC of Forgotten Realms that was all about monks that only increased flurry of blows and IUS damage, but it gave none of the Ki? I don't remember the name right, Shou something, I think.

Shou disciple - Unapproachable East p.32.

[ArqArturo]

Shou disciple - Unapproachable East p.32.

Thanks. From what I gather, they can use Flurry of blows with martial weapons. So, you could use Arcane Strike, snag a spell into the weapon (preferably a spiked chain), an flurry with it, choosing to release the spell at any attack.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh yeah!

I like Enlightened Fist for Duskblades.

Hold Ray + Arcane Channeling + Improved Unarmed Strike = disintegrate pimpsmacks

[Lyndworm]

Yet the example specifically states you do.

3rd level Wizard, 4th level druid, and 4th level AH has Wild Shape of an 8th level druid, IIRC.
This is correct, but I'm not sure it's relevant beyond a piece of amusing trivia. Given the usual quality of Wotc's sample NPCs I'm neither swayed nor even surprised by this information.


But yeah, forgot to add the AH to my duskblade level, so count as 17th level for Familiar abilities. It references Arcane Caster level, then points you to the Familiar page. If your DM requires you to have a Familiar (you don't, nothing in the class states you must have a familiar, simply that you lose your familiar but the CF gains the abilities of a Familiar based on your CL) then you can burn a feat on Obtain Familiar.
That makes sense. I wasn't saying that you need a familiar, by the way; I don't think that there exists a reasonable interpretation of that class feature that would imply you do. Rather, I was saying that you might not need an animal companion (but probably do).

[GeekGirl]

I like Ur-Priest


Arcane Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.20) - third post down

4 levels of Mage of the Arcane Order is surprisingly nice for Duskblades.

I think I am missing something about this build, it sound like it get full casting progression, but Arcane Archer doesn't raise caster level. What am I missing?

[Lyndworm]

The capstone of Abjurant Champion makes your arcane caster level equal to your BAB, if that would be higher. Arcane Archer won't advance spellcasting, but it is full BAB.

[GeekGirl]

The capstone of Abjurant Champion makes your arcane caster level equal to your BAB, if that would be higher. Arcane Archer won't advance spellcasting, but it is full BAB.

That makes sense. I see where my confusion was.

[PraxisVetli]

I like Ur-Priest



I think I am missing something about this build, it sound like it get full casting progression, but Arcane Archer doesn't raise caster level. What am I missing?

I second Ur-Priest. Could be cool, while maintaining a touch of efficiency.
Would the Dragonlance Feat Academic Prist work on Ur-Priest? Would help on the MAD a bit.

[PraxisVetli]

And as someone who has trained in and prefers Reverse-Grip, them Kukris be Kooky. Now, while odd, you can definately wield a kukri reversed. But BFZ has them Reversed BACKWARDS, which doesn't make a lick of sense. What were they thinking? I mean, yeah, the whole reverse-grip thing auto implies rouguey assassiny (evil)goodness, but with a blade as..bent..as a kukri, that is just not going to work. Daggers? Sure. Kukri? Held like that they make better brass knuckles than blades. Just start punching...