Is There Short-Term Precog in 3.5?

[Palanan]

I'm thinking of a moment from the classic X-Men, when they're rumbling with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and blind Destiny has a crossbow on Senator Kelly. She tells him it doesn't matter which way he tries to dodge: because she's a precog, she'll know, and aim accordingly.

Is there anything in 3.5 or Pathfinder--a spell, a feat, anything at all--that would emulate this ability? The short-term ability to predict your opponent's next move?

[Juntao112]

I believe something of the sort exists in the XPH.

[Captnq]

I never messed with psionics.

Ardent has something called offensive precognition? Or seers? or some crap. I hate psionics.

[Juntao112]

The Psion power Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognition.htm) sort of fits the bill.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can fake it if you want but no, offensive short term pre-cog doesn't exist.

The easiest way to fake it is with Surge of Fortune, which lets you expend it as an immediate action to make your next d20 roll a natural 20. Combine with the ability to auto-confirm critical hits and refluff it and its basically what you want.

[Psyren]

This is generally the fluff behind most insight bonuses. It's not flawless in the same was a comic-book power, but comic book powers tend to vary far too vastly across the power spectrum based on the desires of this or that writer to really fit a game system.



Ardent has something called offensive precognition? Or seers? or some crap. I hate psionics.

Is that because you don't understand it, or because you don't think people should be able to do stuff like this? If it's the latter, magic can do this too.

[Story]

Eyes of the Oracle has the fluff of seeing your opponents moves slightly ahead of time, but it doesn't really do what you want.

To actually hit like that you'd probably want something like true strike or blindsight.

[Eldan]

There's a few vaguely like that. The spell Sign is a +4 to initiative, fluffed as seeing a bit into the future to be forewarned, but not quite what you want. Foresight means you are never surprised. True Strike could probably be fluffed that way. There's Moment of Prescience on level 8th, which gives a +25 insight bonus on, amongst other things, an attack roll. That's quite close.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy
The easiest way to fake it is with Surge of Fortune, which lets you expend it as an immediate action to make your next d20 roll a natural 20.

...and what is Surge of Fortune? I don't see it in the PHB or Spell Compendium, and it doesn't show up in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), so I'm at a loss.


Originally Posted by Story
Eyes of the Oracle has the fluff of seeing your opponents moves slightly ahead of time, but it doesn't really do what you want.

This sounds intriguing, but again I'm not sure what this is.

The suggestions are very welcome, but for those of us who don't have a truly encyclopedic knowledge of 3.everything, citing sources is quite helpful.

:smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

...and what is Surge of Fortune? I don't see it in the PHB or Spell Compendium, and it doesn't show up in the Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats), so I'm at a loss.


Spell in Complete Champion.

You cast it and can then expend it as an Immediate Action to get a natural 20 on a d20 roll.

[Big Fau]

Spell in Complete Champion.

You cast it and can then expend it as an Immediate Action to get a natural 20 on a d20 roll.

I thought that spell was in Races of Destiny?

[Flickerdart]

The psionic powers offensive precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm) and offensive prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm) are exactly what you want. There's also a defensive precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm).

[Rubik]

Depending on context, (Psionic) Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell could result in something similar, as can the Synchronicity power, and even a properly readied action.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Juntao112
The Psion power Precognition sort of fits the bill.


Originally Posted by Flickerdart
The psionic powers offensive precognition and offensive prescience are exactly what you want. There's also a defensive precognition.

Thanks for the psionic suggestions. Not my thing, and not exactly what I want, but these do give a sense of how this is approached in 3.5.


Originally Posted by Psyren
...comic book powers tend to vary far too vastly across the power spectrum based on the desires of this or that writer to really fit a game system.

True, although raw power isn't the only axis involved. As you point out, abilities like Destiny's foresight exist completely outside the d20 framework, so power ends up being almost impossible to directly compare.

To get away from the comics paradigm, another example of what I'm looking for would be a Mistborn burning atium (http://mistborn.wikia.com/wiki/Atium), from Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series. As I recall, the effect was described as seeing dozens of possible future actions at once, but the upshot is the same: an ability to read your opponent's future, and be certain of what he would do next.

Surge of Fortune could approximate this, within a narrow envelope of circumstances, but what if you don't want to attack? Thus my search for true precognition continues.

[Emperor Tippy]

Time Regression can fake it somewhat if you are willing to eat the 1,000 XP cost. You get to roll back time to the start of your previous turn and you are the only one who keeps any memory of the intervening events.

Psion 15/ Archpsion 5 who has taken Innate Power: Time Regression 5 times and then taken the feat Supernatural Transformation (this is actually one of the few times where this is clear cut RAW legal with no debate) gets to use Time Regression XP free 10 times per day.

[Rubik]

It's funny how so many of these are psionic in nature.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's funny how so many of these are psionic in nature.
Psionics is very good at messing with time.

[Fax Celestis]

You can fake it if you want but no, offensive short term pre-cog doesn't exist.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm

[Story]

This sounds intriguing, but again I'm not sure what this is.

The suggestions are very welcome, but for those of us who don't have a truly encyclopedic knowledge of 3.everything, citing sources is quite helpful.


Usually just googling it will give you a description of what it is and where it's from. In this case it's a spell from Dragon Magic (pg 66-67).

[gooddragon1]

I'm thinking of a moment from the classic X-Men, when they're rumbling with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and blind Destiny has a crossbow on Senator Kelly. She tells him it doesn't matter which way he tries to dodge: because she's a precog, she'll know, and aim accordingly.

Is there anything in 3.5 or Pathfinder--a spell, a feat, anything at all--that would emulate this ability? The short-term ability to predict your opponent's next move?

Anything that gives you an insight bonus can be fluffed as such.


Insight Bonus

An insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur. Multiple insight bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest insight bonus applies.


True Strike
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
Focus

A small wooden replica of an archery target.

True strike is exactly what you want to aim with. If you can power attack you can take advantage of that knowledge for extra damage.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm

Captnq and Flickerdart swordsaged you something fierce. :smalltongue:

Also, the Offensive Precognition ability isn't really precog; it's a dinky bonus to a single attack roll. The benefit is chalked up to an awareness of the next fraction of a second, but it's really not the droids comprehensive foresight I'm looking for.


Originally Posted by Rubik
It's funny how so many of these are psionic in nature.

And a real riot if the OP doesn't do psionics.

:smallsigh:


Originally Posted by gooddragon1
True strike is exactly what you want to aim with. If you can power attack you can take advantage of that knowledge for extra damage.

Again, this isn't precog in the sense I'm thinking; it's just a bonus (though not quite so dinky) to a single attack roll.

What I'm looking for--dreaming of, since it doesn't sound like it exists--is a way not just to instantaneously boost an attack, but to see into the immediate future all around you. It really sounds like what I have in mind just doesn't occur in the 3.all continuum.

[Emperor Tippy]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionOffensive.htm

The power matches fluff wise but Crunch wise it doesn't do what the OP wanted.

Surge of Fortune is about the only thing that matches crunch wise.

Fluff wise a lot of things work.

[gooddragon1]

Captnq and Flickerdart swordsaged you something fierce. :smalltongue:

Also, the Offensive Precognition ability isn't really precog; it's a dinky bonus to a single attack roll. The benefit is chalked up to an awareness of the next fraction of a second, but it's really not the droids comprehensive foresight I'm looking for.



And a real riot if the OP doesn't do psionics.

:smallsigh:



Again, this isn't precog in the sense I'm thinking; it's just a bonus (though not quite so dinky) to a single attack roll.

What I'm looking for--dreaming of, since it doesn't sound like it exists--is a way not just to instantaneously boost an attack, but to see into the immediate future all around you. It really sounds like what I have in mind just doesn't occur in the 3.all continuum.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#prescience


Prescience (Ex)

Gifted with extraordinary insight and perceptive abilities, a diviner using this variant can add an insight bonus equal to her Intelligence modifier to any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or level check she makes. The diviner can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time per day for every five class levels attained. Using this ability is a free action that can be taken out of turn if needed, but the character must choose to use this ability before the die roll is made.

A diviner using this variant does not gain additional spells per day for being a specialist wizard.

The broad nature of this ability basically means you are doing exactly that. You are seeing the entirety of the future and many possible alternate futures and even further are guiding the splinter possibilities together into the desired outcome. It can take the form of you dodging a fireball, shooting an arrow, or even dodging opportunity attacks by tumbling just right.

You are actively seeing the future.

Now, if you want to change fate and be able to move according to possible future events you're closest with time regression.

Also (psionics)

It seems like what you're looking for might also be a reversed version of this:


Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions
Clairsentience
Level: Seer 2
Display: Auditory and material
Manifesting Time: 1 hour
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: Spread with a radius of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, centered on you
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3

You gain historical vision in a given location. Rooms, streets, tunnels, and other discrete locations accumulate psychic impressions left by powerful emotions experienced in a given area. These impressions offer you a picture of the location’s past.

The types of events most likely to leave psychic impressions are those that elicited strong emotions: battles and betrayals, marriages and murders, births and great pain, or any other event where one emotion dominates. Everyday occurrences leave no residue for a manifester to detect.

The vision of the event is dreamlike and shadowy. You do not gain special knowledge of those involved in the vision, though you might be able to read large banners or other writing if they are in your language.

Beginning with the most recent significant event at a location and working backward in time, you can sense one distinct event for every 10 minutes you maintain concentration, if any such events exist to be sensed. Your sensitivity extends into the past a maximum number of years equal to 100 × your manifester level.

[Eldaran]

Also, the Offensive Precognition ability isn't really precog; it's a dinky bonus to a single attack roll.

I suspect Psyren is right and you don't understand Psionics, because it's a decent scaling attack bonus (1+1/3 level assuming you augment) that applies to all attacks made during its duration.

[Psyren]

Again, this isn't precog in the sense I'm thinking; it's just a bonus (though not quite so dinky) to a single attack roll.


Mechanically yes, that's what it represents. Fluffwise, again, this is exactly what insight bonuses are - you're getting info about the future that you can act on in the present. The fact that you can still miss is due simply to the future not being set in stone.

Put another way - if you would hit with that bonus, and miss without it, functionally it's no different than Destiny's absolute-targeting.

[Aharon]

Time Regression can fake it somewhat if you are willing to eat the 1,000 XP cost. You get to roll back time to the start of your previous turn and you are the only one who keeps any memory of the intervening events.

Psion 15/ Archpsion 5 who has taken Innate Power: Time Regression 5 times and then taken the feat Supernatural Transformation (this is actually one of the few times where this is clear cut RAW legal with no debate) gets to use Time Regression XP free 10 times per day.

IIRC, you can also circumvent the XP cost by making a psionic tattoo of the power.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldaran
I suspect Psyren is right and you don't understand Psionics....

Psyren was referring to another person:



Originally Posted by Captnq
Ardent has something called offensive precognition? ...I hate psionics.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Is that because you don't understand it, or because you don't think people should be able to do stuff like this?

Also, decent scaling bonus or not, Offensive Precognition is exclusively focused on attack rolls, which is much too limited for what I'm looking for.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Mechanically yes, that's what it represents.

...and I'm looking for something more.


Originally Posted by gooddragon1
*prescience wizard variant*

That...is very cool on its own, and certainly moving closer to what I had in mind. Still not quite there, but this is really good to know about.


Originally Posted by gooddragon1
It seems like what you're looking for might also be a reversed version of...Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions.

Aha! Very close indeed, and if you match this up with the mechanics for wizard-prescience it's a rough approximation of what I'd been thinking.

The mechanics for wizard-prescience are still rather limited, but a good starting point. Thanks for these two items--I have a feeling that's about as good as 3.5 can offer.

[Fax Celestis]

...and I'm looking for something more.


Then you're probably not going to find it, because it's going to boil down to "remove the d20 roll from the equation".

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
Then you're probably not going to find it, because it's going to boil down to "remove the d20 roll from the equation".

Stunned silence.



How does "do something more than just attack once" suddenly equate to "remove d20 completely"?

As I noted above, gooddragon1 found a couple of options which are, if not perfect, at least much closer to what I had in mind. The Prescience variant in particular is a good start, in that it allows for a number of different rolls and checks beyond attack alone.

Note that those are all d20 rolls, and I'm fine with that.

[Tulya]

Pathfinder's Diviner Foresight variant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight) is probably the most flavorful mesh of mechanics and fluff for that kind of thing, with its Prescience ability.
You see 6 seconds into the future (Preroll a d20 at start of turn), and can either let it play out as envisioned (use the pregenerated roll), or try to shake it up and let the dice fall where they may (ignore the preroll).

You get Prescience at Wizard 1 at full effectiveness, so you don't have to actually be a Wizard throughout your career to take advantage of it if you don't want to. (Though if you stick it out, you can use certain racial favored class bonuses to get an extra use every other level.)
You also keep the Forewarned ability, so that you're never completely caught off guard (always get to act in a surprise round). Only the extra initiative bonus scales with additional wizard levels, so it's still pretty good on a splash.

Luck/Unluck effects where you take the best of two rolls/force the enemy to take the worst of two rolls could also be fluffed as a precognitive edge.

[Psyren]

Stunned silence.



How does "do something more than just attack once" suddenly equate to "remove d20 completely"?

My understanding was that you wanted Destiny's power, which was essentially "I can hit you no matter what" - which, as Fax rightly said, means removing the diceroll.

[gooddragon1]

My understanding was that you wanted Destiny's power, which was essentially "I can hit you no matter what" - which, as Fax rightly said, means removing the diceroll.

Well, if you want to do that:

Aura of Perfect Order
Strike of Perfect Clarity
a d1 weapon (like a tiny gauntlet).

Take an 11 on the attack roll. A d1 does not need to be rolled. Deal 100 extra points of damage. Take an 11 on the initiative roll too if you want.

And if you want to make it more useable you use dive attack of raptoran with the strike of perfect clarity to double the damage output with some d1 weapon (if it exists) for like 250 damage probably.

So it goes like this...

DM: Player X, your douse the flames is successful and the pit fiend cannot take any opportunity attacks this turn. Player Y, the result of your knowledge check indicates it has these abilities (shows stat block) and exactly average hit points. Next in initiative is player Z.
Player Z: The pit fiend takes 235 points of damage (factoring in damage reduction).
DM: The pit fiend dies.

[Fax Celestis]

Stunned silence.



How does "do something more than just attack once" suddenly equate to "remove d20 completely"?

We gave you options for a variety of things and you said "no, that's not right". What you are asking for, based on your example, is the ability to predict where your opponent is going and therefore attack them without error. That is either an attack bonus or an automatic hit. We gave you the former, you weren't happy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
My understanding was that you wanted Destiny's power, which was essentially "I can hit you no matter what" - which, as Fax rightly said, means removing the diceroll.

That moment with Destiny was what first set me to wondering about precog in 3.5, and I can see how citing that particular example would sound as if I was focused on combat alone. I did try to clarify that with the reference to a Mistborn burning atium, which isn't inherently bound to combat.


Originally Posted by Tulya
Pathfinder's Diviner Foresight variant is probably the most flavorful mesh of mechanics and fluff for that kind of thing, with its Prescience ability.

Also interesting, thank you, and I appreciate your commentary on how it works, or could be construed to work.


Originally Posted by Fax Celestis
What you are asking for, based on your example, is the ability to predict where your opponent is going and therefore attack them without error.


Originally Posted by Palanan in the OP
Is there anything in 3.5 or Pathfinder--a spell, a feat, anything at all--that would emulate this ability? The short-term ability to predict your opponent's next move?

I believe I did specify prediction, rather than attack. But at this point it's not worth arguing further.

[Psyren]

You can get insight bonuses to things besides attacks pretty easily too - Initiative, skill checks, ability checks, even AC and saves. All of these can be fluffed as short-term precognition.

[Fax Celestis]

I believe I did specify prediction, rather than attack. But at this point it's not worth arguing further.

We. Gave. You. That.

[Rubik]

We. Gave. You. That.Palanan is basically asking for the ability to say, "You lose," and enforce it in-game without any other factors, including die rolls. Basically, he wants a game of make-believe backed up by a baseball bat.

[Phelix-Mu]

Easy does it. I think wanting something terribly specific is not necessarily a hostile action, and just because the OP was asking for something pretty darn powerful doesn't necessarily mean the OP wants to forgo the premise of the game. This is clear because overpowered x, y, and z is all over 3.5, rolls notwithstanding, for all manner of things.

I think time regression is pretty close to the mark. The future happens as the present, you witness it, and return to the past, as the only one that knows what is going to happen. The xp cost is problematic, as is the fluff, but by combining something like this with one of the other suggestions, we can probably arrive at something related to this power the OP is looking to replicate.

But, generally speaking, D&D places heavy emphasis on a rather nerfed down version of "luck" (the heavily modified die roll), which flavor-wise flies in the face of the desired power (which the OP specified as certainty).

[gooddragon1]

Actually what I'm reading seems to be:

Give me an ability that allows me to see the future physically like a time regression or a reverse sensitivity to psychic impressions but it gives me a numerical bonus. The problem is that the two are somewhat separate. A dm could just allow you to perform an activity knowing what the future circumstances are from a time regression and gain a bonus. But in that case you're actually traveling back in time (though the mechanics of that probably serve the purpose and all you need to do is alter the fluff). Seeing the future possibilities like that would vastly slow down the turns in a game as things are resolved twice basically for every round.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rubik
Palanan is basically asking for the ability to say, "You lose," and enforce it in-game without any other factors, including die rolls. Basically, he wants a game of make-believe backed up by a baseball bat.

I absolutely did not. I have no idea where you got this from, but it wasn't me.

I'm looking for an ability which evidently isn't well-represented by the 3.5 mechanics. This in no way means I want to abandon the concept of the d20.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
Easy does it. I think wanting something terribly specific is not necessarily a hostile action, and just because the OP was asking for something pretty darn powerful doesn't necessarily mean the OP wants to forgo the premise of the game. This is clear because overpowered x, y, and z is all over 3.5, rolls notwithstanding, for all manner of things.

Thank you, for grokking my intent and discussing its pros and cons in an unruffled fashion.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
...generally speaking, D&D places heavy emphasis on a rather nerfed down version of "luck" (the heavily modified die roll), which flavor-wise flies in the face of the desired power (which the OP specified as certainty).

...and for this in particular, which helps me see the issue from a useful perspective.


Originally Posted by gooddragon1
Give me an ability that allows me to see the future physically like a time regression or a reverse sensitivity to psychic impressions but it gives me a numerical bonus.

Pretty much so, although the numerical bonus was secondary; it was the ability to sense immediate possibilities that I was really after.

Really, you nailed it with the idea of a reversed Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions. That's very close to what I was looking for, and the Prescience variant helps out as well, together with the Foresight variant that Tulya mentioned from PF. Those three together should make a promising package.

.

[Eldan]

So, in my mind, an insight bonus would be knowing how your opponent tries to dodge and taking that into consideration. But that doesn't seem whta you want.

Could you describe what you want a little better? If hitting and evading isn't enough, what else would you want your perfect mechanic for prescience to do?

[TuggyNE]

Could you describe what you want a little better? If hitting and evading isn't enough, what else would you want your perfect mechanic for prescience to do?

Put another way, maybe a few sample probabilities of hitting in various cases?

{table=head]Skill|Mook|Elite|BBEG
Low|?%|?%|?%
Medium|?%|?%|?%
High|?%|?%|?%[/table]