PHB2 Retraining Rules and Racial Feats

[ben-zayb]

Hi playgrounders,

I was trying to run a homebrew-setting low-level campaign (L6) with my RL gaming group, with access to Core, Completes, PHB2, and BoED. Basically, this was a continuation, sort of a new chapter, from a campaign a year ago. The party was previously composed of a Dwarf Fighter, Human Cleric, Elf Scout, and a Gnome Sorceress.

The sorceress PC is currently preoccupied with RL stuff, so we had this new lad (another gamer friend's brother) join the group. By the fighter and cleric PCs' request, I allowed the players to retrain, going by the retraining rules from PHB2.

The problem is that this new player insists that in his Elf Beguiler build, the racial feats, VoP bonus feats, and the Silent Spell from the Beguiler class can be retrained for any feat. I argued that racial feats and feat from class aren't legitimate for retraining since these feats weren't chosen by the PC, it was like a default trait/feature of the race/class. And I ruled that VoP feats can only be retrained for other Exalted Feats. The kid was simply not buying it until I provide a convincing RAW argument (which I believe I already did) and insisted that any feat can be retrained with any other feat by RAW.

Before I politely give him a big NO by virtue of Rule Zero, I'd like to ask the playground if this retraining is entirely RAW-valid. I know that DCFS does the feat shuffle fine by RAW, but I think this is more akin to Psychic Reformation (to which the kid made the same argument), and I'd prefer if I can use logic RAW reasoning instead, since Rule Zero might look like a dickish move.

So can racial feats, VoP feats, and feats given by classes really be retrained using PHB2 rules?

[jedipilot24]

Hi playgrounders,

I was trying to run a homebrew-setting low-level campaign (L6) with my RL gaming group, with access to Core, Completes, PHB2, and BoED. Basically, this was a continuation, sort of a new chapter, from a campaign a year ago. The party was previously composed of a Dwarf Fighter, Human Cleric, Elf Scout, and a Gnome Sorceress.

The sorceress PC is currently preoccupied with RL stuff, so we had this new lad (another gamer friend's brother) join the group. By the fighter and cleric PCs' request, I allowed the players to retrain, going by the retraining rules from PHB2.

The problem is that this new player insists that in his Elf Beguiler build, the racial feats, VoP bonus feats, and the Silent Spell from the Beguiler class can be retrained for any feat. I argued that racial feats and feat from class aren't legitimate for retraining since these feats weren't chosen by the PC, it was like a default trait/feature of the race/class. And I ruled that VoP feats can only be retrained for other Exalted Feats. The kid was simply not buying it until I provide a convincing RAW argument (which I believe I already did) and insisted that any feat can be retrained with any other feat by RAW.

Before I politely give him a big NO by virtue of Rule Zero, I'd like to ask the playground if this retraining is entirely RAW-valid. I know that DCFS does the feat shuffle fine by RAW, but I think this is more akin to Psychic Reformation (to which the kid made the same argument), and I'd prefer if I can use logic RAW reasoning instead, since Rule Zero might look like a dickish move.

So can racial feats, VoP feats, and feats given by classes really be retrained using PHB2 rules?

The feat retraining rules state that "You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state but you must be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat."

The section on Class Features, which uses the example of the Ranger Combat Style feats, says that class feature changes must be legal choices that could have been made at the same level as you made the original choice.

So the Beguiler bonus feats cannot be retrained because there is no alternative class feature for them; contrast to the Ranger and Scout classes which do have alternatives.

I assume the racial feats you are referring to are the martial weapon proficiencies. These are not mentioned in the feat rules but I would argue that since they racial traits, they also cannot be retrained with the feat rules; you would have to go through one of the Rebuild Quests in PHB2 to change race in order to get rid of the Elf racial feats.

Now as for the Vow Poverty bonus feats, the BOED mentions that these are gained for the levels after the Vow is taken, so I would allow them to be retrained as long as the new feat is a legal selection--namely an Exalted feat that could have been taken at that particular level.

[Ruethgar]

I think some racial feats can be retrained, AFB atm, but couldn't a dwarf switch their racial weapon proficiency to another dwarf only weapon? Otherwise jedipiolot got it 100% correct, you need to be able to make a selection you could have at the time you took the feat.

Chaos Shuffle(Shun and Embrace the Dark Chaos) has no such limitation but would cost a fortune if you can't cast it and should make you chaotic if you used it to remove all of the VoP feats and racials. I think psychic reformation may work, but you would need it at level 1 for the racial feats since you get them at, the now only theoretical, class level 0. So again, a fortune to put into practice unless you cheese your way into it(use the AEG witch with mage slayer for free magic items of indefinite chaos shuffle comes to mind).

[ben-zayb]

The feat retraining rules state that "You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state but you must be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat."

The section on Class Features, which uses the example of the Ranger Combat Style feats, says that class feature changes must be legal choices that could have been made at the same level as you made the original choice.

So the Beguiler bonus feats cannot be retrained because there is no alternative class feature for them; contrast to the Ranger and Scout classes which do have alternatives.

I assume the racial feats you are referring to are the martial weapon proficiencies. These are not mentioned in the feat rules but I would argue that since they racial traits, they also cannot be retrained with the feat rules; you would have to go through one of the Rebuild Quests in PHB2 to change race in order to get rid of the Elf racial feats.

Now as for the Vow Poverty bonus feats, the BOED mentions that these are gained for the levels after the Vow is taken, so I would allow them to be retrained as long as the new feat is a legal selection--namely an Exalted feat that could have been taken at that particular level.
He did argue that he met the prerequisites, since he simply chose metamagic and spell focus feats in exchange for elven racial feats. That arguments for the class features and VoP are the same as mine, which is that "legal" "choice" merely implies meeting the prerequisite/s of the feat.


I think some racial feats can be retrained, AFB atm, but couldn't a dwarf switch their racial weapon proficiency to another dwarf only weapon? Otherwise jedipiolot got it 100% correct, you need to be able to make a selection you could have at the time you took the feat.

Chaos Shuffle(Shun and Embrace the Dark Chaos) has no such limitation but would cost a fortune if you can't cast it and should make you chaotic if you used it to remove all of the VoP feats and racials. I think psychic reformation may work, but you would need it at level 1 for the racial feats since you get them at, the now only theoretical, class level 0. So again, a fortune to put into practice unless you cheese your way into it(use the AEG witch with mage slayer for free magic items of indefinite chaos shuffle comes to mind).

Hm... didn't know about that one. I'm AFB right now, but is that one from Races of Stone? If it's legit, then maybe it only applies between weapon proficiency feats. The game is low level and we don't have Fiendish Codex on the table though, so DCFS is pretty much out.

Anyway, thanks for the insights (and some new info)! We're just days away from starting, so it looks like I've no choice but to simply veto away such tricks.

[TuggyNE]

The key thing is to remember that PHBII only lets you retrain feats that you selected, and racial feats were in no possible sense selected. "Selecting" a feat has game meaning, as part of the process of leveling up, and it does not cover all possible ways of gaining feats.

[Malak'ai]

The way I understand the Retraining Rules is that only the Feats gained at level 1,3,6 etc can be retrained.
Racial/Class Provided Feats (except for things like Ranger Fighting Style which give you a choice) are pre-set. They are apart if being that Race/Class and you get them at creation/the level they're gained no matter what (except if traded via an ACF).

Now as for bonus Exalted Feats gained from VoP I don't know. Never used VoP and likely never will (I like all my sparkly toys too much :smallwink:), but I suppose swapping them for another Exalted Feat that fits the character/build/setting/game better is fine, as long as you meet the prereqs.