Could Thog end up killing Tarquin?

[Dissection]

Hello. I was thinking, and I had an idea that I haven't seen on these forums, and it might be completely wrong, but I just kind of wanted to put it out there.

Since we didn't see Thog actually die, I'm pretty sure that means he's still alive. And because of this, I have a strong feeling that he's going to have at least one more important role in the story before it ends.

And I was thinking, could it be that Thog somehow ends up finding out that Tarquin killed Nale, and end up entering a massive rage and killing Tarquin? It's just a complete guess, but for some reason I can just imagine a situation where the Order has been defeated by Tarquin and he's about to kill them, when suddenly Thog bursts in from out of nowhere and tears Tarquin in half or something, screaming something about avenging Nale (or, I suppose, possibly about protecting not-nale, who he considers a friend)...

Anyway, does anyone else think Thog could end up killing Tarquin? I think it's unlikely that the Order will encounter Thog again after they leave the desert, so if Thog does have one last role in the story (which I find likely), it will probably be very soon, and I think killing Tarquin would be the perfect role.

[genderlich]

That would be amazing and I'd love to see it. I just don't see a way for him to find them in the desert here, so I'd only think it remotely likely if they all go back to Bleedingham for some reason.

[orrion]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?

[Dissection]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?

Well, I'm assuming that more stuff would happen between now and then, just that my idea could be a possibility eventually.

[Havokca]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?

a) "THOG SMASH! THOG LEAVE!" … he really only tends to stay put in jail when Nale asks him to.

b) it's unlikely that he'd know, so I think you're spot on; he's not likely to show up.

c) same again

[MikelaC1]

It would be highly unrealistic, even in D&D terms, for Thog to survive having an entire stadium dropped on him. Remember as well, his rage had expired so his hit points were not at optimal level and he had also taken damage from Roy. A re-appearance of Thog would diminish this comic.

[Obscure Blade]

Being ripped in half by Thog would certainly derail Tarquin's self-planned storyline.


Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?The name "Sabine" comes to mind. She could arrange both and would have a reason to do so. Assuming her banishment wears off soon enough.

[Ellye]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?a), b) and, somewhat, c): Sabine.

It would work out a lot better if they weren't in the middle of the desert, though. And it would take one day.

[David Argall]

Now there is a chance that Thog [& Nale] will show up in book 6 or 7, but this will require some explanation in text. The presumption we have is that Thog is dead and gone. Roy killed him and Tarquin refused to raise him. And that is that.
In particular, Thog is unlikely to appear in this scene. He was dead or severely wounded and we know of no way he can be healed. He has no way to get to the scene of the action. Nor does he have any way to learn of Nale's death. [Sabine can take care of that tomorrow, but the battle may not last a minute. She is not a solution now.]
Then this is the story of the Order. They are the one who does the heroics. Any solution that depends on others rescuing them has a heavy burden against it. Far more likely is that some overlooked resource allows them to succeed.

[orrion]

The name "Sabine" comes to mind. She could arrange both and would have a reason to do so. Assuming her banishment wears off soon enough.


a), b) and, somewhat, c): Sabine.

It would work out a lot better if they weren't in the middle of the desert, though. And it would take one day.

Sabine is banished until at least morning, and it's not even dusk yet because Durkon still has no spells.

Do you really think this fight is going to last more than 12 hours?

[JCAll]

Maybe Nale's ghost will haunt Thog.

[Ramien]

It would be highly unrealistic, even in D&D terms, for Thog to survive having an entire stadium dropped on him. Remember as well, his rage had expired so his hit points were not at optimal level and he had also taken damage from Roy. A re-appearance of Thog would diminish this comic.

Eh, collapses are strange things. It wouldn't be completely unbelievable for the stadium collapse (and it was only one section, not the whole thing) to have left a little space for Thog to survive until he was dug out - how many mine cave-ins have had similar things (or at least not instant death) happen?

[Yendor]

Tarquin said they won't know if Thog is dead until they dig him out. I suspect it will be something like this, several days later:

"So is he dead?"
*stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab*
"Yes."

[137beth]

Sabine is banished until at least morning, and it's not even dusk yet because Durkon still has no spells.

Do you really think this fight is going to last more than 12 hours?

What gives you the idea that Sabine will give up on killing Tarquin after this fight ends?
Of course the odds of Thog being able to kill Tarquin when he isn't in the middle of the desert fighting the order are considerably lower...

[orrion]

What gives you the idea that Sabine will give up on killing Tarquin after this fight ends?
Of course the odds of Thog being able to kill Tarquin when he isn't in the middle of the desert fighting the order are considerably lower...

Well, because we're talking about the odds of Thog showing up and "saving" the Order in this fight by killing Tarquin.

Sure, Sabine isn't likely to give up. I wouldn't say she's very likely to come try and free Thog, though. She'd be much better off trying to reveal Tarquin's overall scheme and bringing it down than she and Thog would be in a direct assault.

What gives you the idea that we would see that part of the story develop, anyway? In the past we've gotten looks at the Linear Guild regrouping, but only because we knew they were coming back. They were still connected to the main storyline. With Nale dead and the Order moving on (well, trying to) they're got no reason to come back until after the main storyline and the LG such as it is has no reason to go after them. So there's not much reason to show us Sabine's plan to reap vengeance on Tarquin, assuming he even gets away unscathed from the current fight.

[Talvereaux]

It would be highly unrealistic, even in D&D terms, for Thog to survive having an entire stadium dropped on him. Remember as well, his rage had expired so his hit points were not at optimal level and he had also taken damage from Roy. A re-appearance of Thog would diminish this comic.

Having Thog survive is not only a stretch, but one that doesn't really benefit the narrative that much. I think he died on a pretty good note all things considered. He's adorable and got to have his "heroic" arc back in Cliffport, but at the end of the day he's still every bit as irredeemably evil as a lot of the villains. Roy finally put him to justice, and his death is just another nail in the Linear Guild's coffin as it dissolves in the same place where it was formed.

Now, someone like Amun-Zora or Sabine being involved with Tarquin's downfall, I can kind of see, considering the narrative's left them with plenty of unfinished business, but bringing Thog back just to be a hero again only comes across as fanservice at this point.

[allenw]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?

The same way he managed to flood the palace with lemon pudding that time? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) :smallbiggrin:

[Ghost Nappa]

But who wastes perfectly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)good foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) like a villain not dying on-panel?

[Haldir]

I don't think Thog can kill Tarquin. Tarquin is expert at manipulating his opponent and Thog isn't smart enough not to fall into it. The likelyhood of this scenario seems crazy low.

[factotum]

I don't think Tarquin is stupid enough to just leave a pile of rubble with a powerful enemy under it...I imagine he's checked and made quite thoroughly sure Thog is dead before coming out on this mission.

[alpha_dk]

But who wastes perfectly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)good foreshadowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) like a villain not dying on-panel?

Someone who doesn't want to foreshadow that by the end of the book, all of LG will be dead (or have moved on, like good ol' Leeky Windstaff)

[johnbragg]

I don't think Tarquin is stupid enough to just leave a pile of rubble with a powerful enemy under it...I imagine he's checked and made quite thoroughly sure Thog is dead before coming out on this mission.

Does he recognize Thog as a powerful enemy, though?

[ChristianSt]

Does he recognize Thog as a powerful enemy, though?

Doing quite well against Roy (and Tarquin thinks of Roy as being worthy to fight against), finding a way to flood the palace with leomn pudding, bashing everyone other than Roy in the Arena to be champion, as well as costing enough guards to put him in a metallic straitjacket should be more than enough that Tarquin should figure out he is not a lvl 1 Commoner :smallwink:.

[Jay R]

Anyway, does anyone else think Thog could end up killing Tarquin?

"Could"? Yes, I guess so, for certainly theoretical speculations.

Is there any evidence for it within the comic, like there were for the "Malack is a vampire" or "The Draketooths are related to black dragon" revelations?

No.

[Kish]

I think Thog's likelihood of actually being dead went way up when Nale died.

And that if, hypothetically speaking, Thog died under the collapsing arena, Rich had an excellent reason to conceal that from the audience, since Thog with X's in his eyes would have been a big hint that this book was going to be the Linear Guild's last stand.

[johnbragg]

Doing quite well against Roy (and Tarquin thinks of Roy as being worthy to fight against), finding a way to flood the palace with leomn pudding, bashing everyone other than Roy in the Arena to be champion, as well as costing enough guards to put him in a metallic straitjacket should be more than enough that Tarquin should figure out he is not a lvl 1 Commoner :smallwink:.

I misspoke, I suppose. Or I mistyped? Talky-man use wrong word!

Obviously Thog is a powerful fighter, but at Tarquins level (both as an epic-level fighter and as a warlord and mastermind of the whole three-empires scheme), is he a dangerous opponent, or is he more a problem to be managed like the escaped T-rex?

The Empress of Blood is a powerful opponent, but not a dangerous one, in Tarquins eyes. Roy is emerging as a dangerous opponent. Xykon would be a dangerous opponent. The ambassador from the Free City of Doom could end up a dangerous opponent, or Ian Starshine, etc etc. Sabine could be a dangerous opponent--connection to IFCC, conspiracy-friendly shapeshifting abilities etc.

I think Thog is more in the "high level of power, but not dangerous" category.

[Everyl]

It would be highly unrealistic, even in D&D terms, for Thog to survive having an entire stadium dropped on him. Remember as well, his rage had expired so his hit points were not at optimal level and he had also taken damage from Roy. A re-appearance of Thog would diminish this comic.

Actually, the fact that Thog's rage ended before he got buried increases his odds of survival, if anything. If he'd gotten buried while raging, then the two most likely outcomes would be either him smashing his way out of the heap and him dying instantly. In the first case, he'd just be making use of his strength - he probably has somewhere in the neighborhood of 26-30 Strength when raging, meaning he should be able to lift upwards of half a ton easily. In the second case, getting knocked to 0 or less hp while raging means instant death at his level, as the loss of the rage bonus to Constitution means the loss of more than enough hit points to put him below -10.

Getting buried seconds after the rage ends leaves open the possibility that he got knocked to -1 hit points, self-stabilized, and maybe even healed a few hit points from enforced rest before being dug out of the rubble. It's a major longshot, especially considering that Tarquin would likely leave standing orders to stab under every rock with spears before removing them or something similar, but it's just barely conceivable that Thog might have survived.

If he is dead, however, I hope we receive confirmation of it eventually. As-is, his off-camera death feels like an unresolved plot thread. If he's not coming back, it only makes sense to keep his status ambiguous as long as Nale is alive. Thog has never demonstrated any initiative of his own, he's always followed Nale's (or, briefly, Elan's) orders. If he is coming back, then his status will probably remain ambiguous until it's revealed how Sabine managed to get him out of the ruins of the arena to use him in her revenge plot or whatever.

[factotum]

Obviously Thog is a powerful fighter, but at Tarquins level (both as an epic-level fighter and as a warlord and mastermind of the whole three-empires scheme), is he a dangerous opponent, or is he more a problem to be managed like the escaped T-rex?

Even if he's in the latter category, you don't manage a problem by just ignoring it and hoping it goes away. Therefore, Tarquin would have checked to see if Thog was still alive under all that rubble, and if he *was*, he would have either killed him to make sure or put him back in the arena to keep the citizens happy with their bread and circuses.

[Kish]

or put him back in the arena to keep the citizens happy with their bread and circuses.
thog not have ranks in profession (baker).

[Reddish Mage]

If he is dead, however, I hope we receive confirmation of it eventually. As-is, his off-camera death feels like an unresolved plot thread. If he's not coming back, it only makes sense to keep his status ambiguous as long as Nale is alive. Thog has never demonstrated any initiative of his own, he's always followed Nale's (or, briefly, Elan's) orders. If he is coming back, then his status will probably remain ambiguous until it's revealed how Sabine managed to get him out of the ruins of the arena to use him in her revenge plot or whatever.

I don't see the value of confirming Thog's death. In the movies, if you see the body, you know they're dead. In the comic books, no death is too great to come back from. D&D is much more like the comic books then the movies.

[Lombard]

The thing about Thog is he was just so much fun and good for an easy laugh. To me that increases his odds of reappearing. It's kind of like Boba Fett, it looks like he "should have" died but given that he wasn't 100% dead on screen they let him somehow escape and live in the book Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina. This reprieve was due to his sheer awesomeness.

[Havokca]

There's also the last panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) strip (which took place after Thog's burial).

… granted, that could be regarding anything, or it could even just be a small gag…. but after reading Nale's monologue here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html), I have to side with the opinions of a few others here:

Died off-stage ==> Not dead.

[Kish]

There's also the last panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html) strip (which took place after Thog's burial).

… granted, that could be regarding anything,
Actually, since the appearance of Laurin, Miron, and the army, I hadn't seen anyone suggest that that panel was still ambiguous until now.

[Ramien]

I'd also consider the words of Tarquin - he outright stated that there was no way of being sure Thog was dead until he was dug out, and also, when Nale brought up the possibility of having Thog come back: "I don't work with loose cannons like that." Not "Sorry, son, he died in the collapse," or even, "We don't have time to dig him out and see if he survived."

[dps]

FWIW, The Sorting Algorithm of Deadness gives him a 2.625. That's in roughly the same range as Shojo.

[Havokca]

Actually, since the appearance of Laurin, Miron, and the army, I hadn't seen anyone suggest that that panel was still ambiguous until now.

It could be that he arranged to have Laurin show up…. but given her wormhole ability, he could have easily coordinated that at the last minute.

Also, given the volatility of the area (most rulers lasting a year…ish), it stands to reason that he can mobilize portions of the army quite quickly…

There are still a decent number of potential loose-ends flipping about. There's a lot of wiggle-room for the Giant to use them in bringing things to a close, or to sever them with little consequence to the overarching plot.

[Nilan8888]

I highly doubt Thog is dead.

Entirely within the realm of possibility, but the reason comes down to: why would he be? We didn't see the body, and Thog is a popular character. For him to be dead would be a little anti-climactic for the character, so why would he be dead? What would be the point? Bringing him back would hardly be going beyond the realm of disbelief, it wouldn't ruin anything TO bring him back considering the way he 'died' (whereas bringing back Nale, Miko, Shojo or Tsukiko WOULD ruin certain things), and there's more you could do with the character so... why would he be dead? Seems it would be a waste of potential.

Each of the remaining Linear Guild has earned a final and proper goodbye with XXs in their eyes (if that is indeed their final fate) so I say give them their ending. Even Drizz't got one, and there's only two of them left now, anyway.

Pompey and Leeky Windstaff can keep though: I don't think we'll be seeing them again.

[AstralFire]

Why should thog be dead?

Pro: As Nale's living weapon, his absence from the comic would demonstrate how utterly inconsequential Nale was. At the end of the day, nothing of him remains. Sabine's in a separate category; she was the only actor in the LG who wasn't some sort of tool for Nale. The fact that she played evil opposite to Haley was a bonus, not her point.

Con: Despite having the least agency, Thog spent considerable time in the audience's eye and thus his audience identity doesn't rest solely on his time as Nale's living weapon. Since a lot of people like him (I'm neutral) it'd be entirely possible to not revisit the subject for the rest of the story. Then, at the epilogue, show Thog as the main attraction at a zoo, happy but unable to harm anyone.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think Thog's likelihood of actually being dead went way up when Nale died.

I agree. 666

[Gift Jeraff]

Am I missing something? I thought it turned out Tarquin is Thog? Or did I read this wrong?: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html

[Ramien]

Am I missing something? I thought it turned out Tarquin is Thog? Or did I read this wrong?: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html

Not with that grammar, he isn't... and he leads with the wrong foot, and can use second-person pronouns.

[Procyonpi]

:thog:: THOG SMASH!!!

[137beth]

I'd also consider the words of Tarquin - he outright stated that there was no way of being sure Thog was dead until he was dug out, and also, when Nale brought up the possibility of having Thog come back: "I don't work with loose cannons like that." Not "Sorry, son, he died in the collapse," or even, "We don't have time to dig him out and see if he survived."

But Tarquin did know that if Thog were dead, he would be in a sufficiently good condition for a ressurection, if not a raise.

[Domino Quartz]

Am I missing something? I thought it turned out Tarquin is Thog? Or did I read this wrong?: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html

You're supposed to use blue text when you're joking.

[factotum]

Entirely within the realm of possibility, but the reason comes down to: why would he be? We didn't see the body, and Thog is a popular character.

Why on earth should the popularity of a character with the audience determine their chance of survival? If popularity was all that determined it then Tsukiko and Malack wouldn't be dead for a start, and Durkon wouldn't be a vampire. As for "didn't see the body", that's been brought up before--for instance, when Sangwaan was killed by Xykon's zombie dragon, people were saying for ages she would come back because we never actually saw the body. Haven't noticed her turning up yet, have you?

[Havokca]

Why on earth should the popularity of a character with the audience determine their chance of survival? If popularity was all that determined it then Tsukiko and Malack wouldn't be dead for a start, and Durkon wouldn't be a vampire. As for "didn't see the body", that's been brought up before--for instance, when Sangwaan was killed by Xykon's zombie dragon, people were saying for ages she would come back because we never actually saw the body. Haven't noticed her turning up yet, have you?

who's Sangwaan?

[Jay R]

If the Giant has some future plotline that uses Thog, he will be alive.

If the Giant doesn't have any future plotline that uses Thog, then he's dead.

No other analysis applies.

[And I have an abysmal record at predicting the plotlines here.]

[AstralFire]

who's Sangwaan?

The Azure City oracle, IIRC.

[AKA_Bait]

I think Thog's likelihood of actually being dead went way up when Nale died.

And that if, hypothetically speaking, Thog died under the collapsing arena, Rich had an excellent reason to conceal that from the audience, since Thog with X's in his eyes would have been a big hint that this book was going to be the Linear Guild's last stand.


That's actually the best explanation I've seen for the ambiguity surrounding Thog's deminse. I've been thinking he's probably still alive, because of the whole no body shown thing and Tarquin's remarks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)making no mention of Thog actually being dead.


If the Giant has some future plotline that uses Thog, he will be alive.

If the Giant doesn't have any future plotline that uses Thog, then he's dead.

No other analysis applies.

[And I have an abysmal record at predicting the plotlines here.]

What about "the Giant has a future one panel throw away gag that uses Thog"? Maybe there were some flumphs nearby...

[Gift Jeraff]

You're supposed to use blue text when you're joking.

My thoughts on blue text: If someone misinterprets what you said as serious, that makes it funnier.


If the Giant has some future plotline that uses Thog, he will be alive.

If the Giant doesn't have any future plotline that uses Thog, then he's dead.

No other analysis applies.

[And I have an abysmal record at predicting the plotlines here.]

Not necessarily. There could be a future plotline involving undead Thog or Thog in the afterlife (perhaps a buddy comedy with Belkar in the Abyss). Conversely, Thog's only role left could just be a panel that writes him off while still being alive (e.g. "Thog and Sir Scraggly lived happily ever after. THE END").

[Ramien]

But Tarquin did know that if Thog were dead, he would be in a sufficiently good condition for a ressurection, if not a raise.

And what cleric would be willing to do it? Malack was sufficiently upset about working with Nale, after all, so I doubt he'd be willing to resurrect one of his cronies...

And even if he was, would Tarquin want to put up with the inevitable 'I can't bring my children back, but you want me to bring back Thog for their murderer?' line of complaints?

[Leonheart]

Thog did have a very badass ending, which completed the "All brawn fighter vs. smart fighter" opposite-contrast-thingie so I don't really see him coming back, but if he is alive...

I can totally see Sabine going back to the stadium and freeing Thog from imprisonment. Then they would go on revenging Nale's death with Sabine leading the group/duo. The manner in which they would do the avenging is unclear. The only way I can see him/them killing Tarquin is if he has already lost against oots and trying to run away, which is when Thog and Sabine would intercept him.

[Kish]

Why on earth should the popularity of a character with the audience determine their chance of survival?
I do feel obligated to point out that Thog's popularity with the audience is (Rich's commentary in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools) the only reason he survived the Order's first clash with the Linear Guild.

That said, I hope he's dead; I think he's about played out. If he kills Tarquin I will reconsider that assessment. A 500 more strips license to the killer of Tarquin!

[Knaight]

FWIW, The Sorting Algorithm of Deadness gives him a 2.625. That's in roughly the same range as Shojo.

Where did you get this? I got 20/7, which is just shy of three - though the algorithm is hardly rigorous to begin with.

As for Thog killing Tarquin - I doubt it. Tarquin's presence in the current fight drops the odds a bit on him being killed by side characters at all (though it is still very possible), and there are a number of side characters better suited to it than Thog. Ian, Sabine, Enor, Gannji, Amun-Zora, all are loose, all hate Tarquin far more than Thog did, all are more resourceful than Thog will ever be. The only reason Thog would even be up for consideration is that he is technically an associate of Sabine's, but it's abundantly clear that Sabine only really cared about Nale.

[Roland Itiative]

I don't think Thog is alive at all. If he survived the battle with Roy, he most certainly was left unconscious, and Tarquin's goons were the ones to clear the rubble. I doubt Tarquin didn't give them a "coup de grâce any Half-Orc you find there" order to them, unless he actually has a use for Thog (which he doesn't seem to have, loose cannon and all). The only way I could see Tarquin let Thog live was if Laurin can use her powers to mind-control him without chance of failure, so he actually becomes a reliable asset for him.

[Breccia]

Probably still alive, but a) how would he have escaped, b) how would he know Nale was killed, c) how would he have followed Tarquin to where they are now?

Sabine, Sabine, and Sabine. (yahtzee!)

[David Argall]

Thog is a supporting character. He can be considered a supporting character of a supporting character. The story is littered with about 100 of them, and we know few, if any, of them are coming back. There is just little plot reason for them to come back. In Thog's case, the chief reason is that we would like to see him, but while our writer is influenced by our desires, we don't see real pandering to our desires. And getting Thog back into the story is going to take some work. So we have likely seen just about the last of Thog.

[Fish]

Analysis by Kish: excellent.

If Thog were definitely alive, Nale would never accept Tarquin on the team, nor would Tarquin go. If Thog were definitely dead, Nale could have made a play for resurrecting him (though likely Tarquin would refuse). And there was never much chance of keeping Thog and Tarquin, given the whole pre-existing evil opposites thing.

And like Kish said, revealing that was Thog's final scene would have tipped the Giant's hand too early — presuming that Nale and Zz'dtri are well and truly off the board and out of play.

[Havokca]

Sabine, Sabine, and Sabine. (yahtzee!)

It's still the same day in-comic as the day that she was banished by Durkon's Holy spell. I believe that means she's still stuck in the lower planes.

[dancrilis]

A 500 more strips license to the killer of Tarquin!
So if Tarquin kills himself than we can have a lot more of him and an in-depth look at the afterlife - it is certainly an interesting idea.


In answer to the question:


Could Thog end up killing Tarquin?
Yes.
However it should be noted that Tarquin may die by any number of means or may not die at all within the story of the order of the stick.

[Breccia]

It's still the same day in-comic as the day that she was banished by Durkon's Holy spell. I believe that means she's still stuck in the lower planes.

So? Nobody said Thog had to kill Tarquin today. Sabine could, and very likely might, take extra time to round up other people with known grudges against Tarquin. There's a pretty extensive list of those, including (but not limited to)
-- Gannji and Enor, for refusing payment, throwing them in the pit, and forcing them to fight each other to the death
-- Amun-Zora, for ordering the death of her husband
-- Ian Starshine, for lengthy incarceration and how he treated his daughter

and more generically
-- anyone in Reptilia, for conspiring with mutual enemies and having Monacle Guy assassinated
-- any surviving ex-wives
-- anyone in the Empire of Blood forced into a downtrodden situation
-- anyone in the former Free City of Doom before it fell
-- any members of Nale's team that tried to overthrow the Empire of Blood, but survived somehow
-- Qarr, because he's allied with the IFCC and might go along with Sabine for that reason alone

[orrion]

So? Nobody said Thog had to kill Tarquin today.

OP says this:


And I was thinking, could it be that Thog somehow ends up finding out that Tarquin killed Nale, and end up entering a massive rage and killing Tarquin? It's just a complete guess, but for some reason I can just imagine a situation where the Order has been defeated by Tarquin and he's about to kill them, when suddenly Thog bursts in from out of nowhere and tears Tarquin in half or something, screaming something about avenging Nale (or, I suppose, possibly about protecting not-nale, who he considers a friend)...

Bold emphasis mine.

About the only time that has a chance to happen is right now.

For the rest of your post.. why would we have an interest in seeing any of that? It doesn't really touch on the main story, and I seriously doubt any of them show up right now.

Enor and Ganjii, for instance, are unlikely to leap in and help the guy who got them imprisoned in the first place, and Amun-Zora hates Elan just as much.

[Havokca]

For the rest of your post.. why would we have an interest in seeing any of that? It doesn't really touch on the main story, and I seriously doubt any of them show up right now.

Enor and Ganjii, for instance, are unlikely to leap in and help the guy who got them imprisoned in the first place, and Amun-Zora hates Elan just as much.

Unless the LG reforms with Thog as the "brains" behind it; for teh lulz, of course :smallbiggrin:

[ChristianSt]

I highly doubt Thog is dead.

Entirely within the realm of possibility, but the reason comes down to: why would he be? We didn't see the body, and Thog is a popular character. For him to be dead would be a little anti-climactic for the character, so why would he be dead? What would be the point? Bringing him back would hardly be going beyond the realm of disbelief, it wouldn't ruin anything TO bring him back considering the way he 'died' (whereas bringing back Nale, Miko, Shojo or Tsukiko WOULD ruin certain things), and there's more you could do with the character so... why would he be dead? Seems it would be a waste of potential.

Each of the remaining Linear Guild has earned a final and proper goodbye with XXs in their eyes (if that is indeed their final fate) so I say give them their ending. Even Drizz't got one, and there's only two of them left now, anyway.

Pompey and Leeky Windstaff can keep though: I don't think we'll be seeing them again.

I think you forgot pretty much about Hilgya :smalltongue:.
After >800 strips of absence I wouldn't count on her returning (ok, maybe it is planned that she will cross Durkon again in the Dwarven lands) - so it is certainly possible that a Linear Guild member just vanishes to be never to be seen again (which imo is close enough to being dead). [Unless this is exactly what you mean with "not being dead"]

And Thog has one major problem: He is pretty much only a lackey - I would find it highly surprising if he actively did something to get back into the plot.
And I see nearly no reason why anybody would want him back (maybe Sabine if she is going to Kill Bill on Tarquin - but even then she might not even bring a loose cannon like Thog with her).

[Nilan8888]

Why on earth should the popularity of a character with the audience determine their chance of survival? If popularity was all that determined it then Tsukiko and Malack wouldn't be dead for a start, and Durkon wouldn't be a vampire. As for "didn't see the body", that's been brought up before--for instance, when Sangwaan was killed by Xykon's zombie dragon, people were saying for ages she would come back because we never actually saw the body. Haven't noticed her turning up yet, have you?

Nonsense.

Firstly, Sangwaan wasn't a particularly popular character and wasn't deeply involved with the strip. There were no plot arcs where Sangwaan played a major part. She had no 'plot armor'. Why would you bring her back? To what end?

Secondly, Tsukiko and Malack's deaths were part of the story and their DEATHS -- not their defeats, but their specific deaths -- are part of the plot, driving the story forward, or key in the characterization of others. To change those results or to have never had them would drastically alter the story.

Thog is popular, but even if he was less popular, he's a long-standing character within the strip. It costs nothing to bring him back. There are a good number of interesting things you could do with Thog, with Nale now gone. Therefore, why not?

People seem to misunderstand: this is a work of fiction. So, as long as it fits within the realm of disbelief and can carry some sort of narrative purpose, THAT'S usually the real barometer: if it can enhance the story. Not the in-world mechanics.



And Thog has one major problem: He is pretty much only a lackey - I would find it highly surprising if he actively did something to get back into the plot.
And I see nearly no reason why anybody would want him back (maybe Sabine if she is going to Kill Bill on Tarquin - but even then she might not even bring a loose cannon like Thog with her).

This post was more polite. And yes, while Thog was a lackey, he's still a lackey that has been around since Strip #50 or so. Sabine is also still alive. I'm not sure there's going to be any Linear Guild resurgence, but this just feels like there's another shoe to drop concerning Thog. To me it feels like Gullom's just been chased off outside Shelob's Lair, and we're looking at Mount Doom thinking 'well at least we won't have to deal with HIM again'.

[orrion]

People seem to misunderstand: this is a work of fiction. So, as long as it fits within the realm of disbelief and can carry some sort of narrative purpose, THAT'S usually the real barometer: if it can enhance the story. Not the in-world mechanics.

Well.. Thog orchestrating something himself doesn't fit into the realm of disbelief.

Far as enhancing the story goes, I think it would be sort of a let down if Thog comes crashing into the party right now. For later, it depends on what occurs here. If Tarquin dies, for instance, Sabine and Thog's major touted reason for coming back goes away. Even if he survives, though, it seems unlikely that he would have major impact on the story.. which means Thog and Sabine returning to do him in wouldn't, either.

[factotum]

Thog is popular, but even if he was less popular, he's a long-standing character within the strip. It costs nothing to bring him back. There are a good number of interesting things you could do with Thog, with Nale now gone. Therefore, why not?


Because he's a dumb as bricks meat shield? I'm struggling to see what "interesting things" can be done with him. Oh look, Thog has just hit someone with an axe again, how jolly! Roy gets away with that because he also has intelligence and wit, neither of which Thog can lay claim to.

Your arguments also apply equally well to Nale, I might point out--if you're going to bring one character back from the dead, why not bring Nale back as well? In which case, we're suddenly back in the situation where the Linear Guild are getting on the Order's case once again, and I think another time would be too many. The LG is done and I don't see them coming back again.

Now, Sabine is a different matter. She's been overshadowed by Nale for a long time...I think it's a darn sight more interesting to see what she does with the rest of the LG all dead and the massive grudge against Tarquin she currently holds. Thog coming back would just dilute that, IMHO.

[Nilan8888]

Because he's a dumb as bricks meat shield? I'm struggling to see what "interesting things" can be done with him. Oh look, Thog has just hit someone with an axe again, how jolly! Roy gets away with that because he also has intelligence and wit, neither of which Thog can lay claim to.

Thog is without a master now, a master that he, supposedly, loved. There's a strip or two worth of reaction out of that, even if played for comedy. There's more to get out of it if Sabine goes off to collect him.


Your arguments also apply equally well to Nale, I might point out--if you're going to bring one character back from the dead, why not bring Nale back as well? In which case, we're suddenly back in the situation where the Linear Guild are getting on the Order's case once again, and I think another time would be too many. The LG is done and I don't see them coming back again.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I have now said the reason -- TWICE -- why bringing Nale back is a non-starter. So for you now, I will say it a THIRD time. I would appreciate you not actually ignoring it this time:

You can't bring Nale back because that would fundamentally change the story. The same goes for many characters who have been killed off. Bringing Thog back does not radically change the story in any way.


Now, Sabine is a different matter. She's been overshadowed by Nale for a long time...I think it's a darn sight more interesting to see what she does with the rest of the LG all dead and the massive grudge against Tarquin she currently holds. Thog coming back would just dilute that, IMHO.

Why? How is that different from "the LG being on the Order's case once again"?

[orrion]

Why? How is that different from "the LG being on the Order's case once again"?

'Cause Sabine isn't on the Order's case anymore? She would be on Tarquin's case.

[Nilan8888]

And... Thog can't be? I thought that was the title of the thread.

Look, Thog is a dumb character. It's unlikely he's going to hoist himself back into the plot of his own accord if he's off rampaging through an Ice Cream Parlor right now. But he is a high-level character and Sabine's known him for a while. It stands to reason she could go and try to fetch Thog and bring him in as part of a revenge plot against Tarquin, against the OOTS, a direct pawn for the IIFC to get the Snarl, whatever. And if a lot of comedy or even drama could be drawn from that series of events, why not do that?

I also fail to see how having Thog would then 'dilute'...Sabine's motives, I guess? This would suggest that just by having Thog around, Sabine becomes less vengeful, or that the comic can't sucessfully switch moods where Sabine is concerned: once she appears to get her revenge, whether it takes 1 strip or 10 to play out that fight, it must be serious all the way through. Which would, if anything, not seem to be the pattern of this strip.

[factotum]

You can't bring Nale back because that would fundamentally change the story. The same goes for many characters who have been killed off. Bringing Thog back does not radically change the story in any way.


How would Nale coming back be any more fundamental to the story than Thog coming back? I mean, we do know Nale won't be coming back because the Giant has gone on record as saying he's never going to use True Resurrection, and that's the only way they could get him back now--but I really don't see a difference between the two cases otherwise. In both cases it's bringing back a villain whose story is, realistically, done, in order to have them make mischief--mischief which is directed at Tarquin rather than the Order, since Nale would no doubt want to pay back ol' Dad for the dagger in the heart as much as Thog would.

If you're saying that Thog might come back because he *is* dumb as bricks and thus won't disrupt the plotline too much, well, how is he going to actually get at Tarquin to kill him if that's the case? I'm sure Tarquin has plenty of safeguards against assassination.

[Fish]

Everybody repeat after me:

"I am not the author. I do not know the future. Even if I CAN imagine a way for the story to continue in a given direction, that is not proof that it will. Even if I can't think of a way for the story to continue in a given direction, that isn't proof that there is NOT such a way. Even if something seems obvious to me, I may be wrong. I resolve to speak in probabilities, therefore, and never certainties about the future."

Could Thog be dead? Yes.
Could he come back? Yes.
Could he never come back and stay dead? Yes.
Would it change the story if he did, or didn't? It would BE the story whether he did or didn't; I cannot speak of "changing the story" because I am not the author.

That said:
I find it likely that at some stage of the story before the end, the antagonists and situations and problems will diminish. The more irons there are in the fire, the more tension; but the longer it takes to end the story, and the more danger of anticlimax and "I saw that coming." I have no way of knowing if we have passed that point with Z, Nale or Thog, but I notice that their opposites (V, Elan, and Roy) are getting satisfying big scenes with which to send them off. Does that mean definitively that Rich won't bring them back? No — but if any do come back, I don't think they would have the same narrative purpose, because it would be hard to top Roy vs Thog again, or V vs Z. (For instance, he might bring Thog back as a one-off gag; an Indiana-Jones-versus-swordsman gag; Thog shows up threateningly and V blasts him.) I credit Rich with good story sense; either he has a good idea and I haven't thought of it, or he knows better than to risk anticlimax. Just because I can't imagine it doesn't mean it's not possible.

[orrion]

And... Thog can't be? I thought that was the title of the thread.

Look, Thog is a dumb character. It's unlikely he's going to hoist himself back into the plot of his own accord if he's off rampaging through an Ice Cream Parlor right now. But he is a high-level character and Sabine's known him for a while. It stands to reason she could go and try to fetch Thog and bring him in as part of a revenge plot against Tarquin, against the OOTS, a direct pawn for the IIFC to get the Snarl, whatever. And if a lot of comedy or even drama could be drawn from that series of events, why not do that?

I also fail to see how having Thog would then 'dilute'...Sabine's motives, I guess? This would suggest that just by having Thog around, Sabine becomes less vengeful, or that the comic can't sucessfully switch moods where Sabine is concerned: once she appears to get her revenge, whether it takes 1 strip or 10 to play out that fight, it must be serious all the way through. Which would, if anything, not seem to be the pattern of this strip.

Revenge against the OOTS? For what? Last time we saw Sabine she was rooting for Vaarsuvius to go get 'em, and the Order wasn't responsible for Nale's death anyway.

Sabine explicitly can't interfere in the current fight, 'cause she's banished. I'm not seeing the drama in her (and/or Thog) going after Tarquin later. Drama happens when characters you care about are put in interesting situations. I don't care about some evil orc's revenge plot, and I certainly don't care about some evil devil's revenge plot. Neither Sabine nor Thog have ever been sympathetic characters.

[Nilan8888]

How would Nale coming back be any more fundamental to the story than Thog coming back?

Because:

1. Thog is not missed by anyone in particular, even his co-workers in the LG. Not even Nale or Sabine were interested in so much as a second thought on account of Thog. He was a means to an end for them, a tool. Thog returning doesn't change the motives of anyone.

2. Nale's death, by comparison, has presumably changed Sabine's motives in the story to revenge against Tarquin.

3. Nale's death even had more reaction from the heroes. Elan in particular had his moment of 'melodrama' over it. Thog's removal from the story did not elicit a similar reaction (and that was despite the two of them actually sharing an adventure together, once upon a time). To undo Nale's death undoes that moment, which felt to me to be a farewell to that character.

As stated by fish, that could totally not be Rich's intention. His intention with Tarquin's knife to Nale's gut could have been to advertise Monday Night Football, for all I know. But given the choices and Mr. Occham's Razor, I'll go with something like the former.



I mean, we do know Nale won't be coming back because the Giant has gone on record as saying he's never going to use True Resurrection, and that's the only way they could get him back now--but I really don't see a difference between the two cases otherwise. In both cases it's bringing back a villain whose story is, realistically, done, in order to have them make mischief--mischief which is directed at Tarquin rather than the Order, since Nale would no doubt want to pay back ol' Dad for the dagger in the heart as much as Thog would.

First of all, Nale's story is only 'done' in that his character is dead. His story continues through Sabine. Thog would simply be another extension of that. Thog really doesn't have his own story.

But that said, Thog's defeat at the hands of Roy was ambiguous without any particular sense of final farewell. Perhaps this is subjective, but I'll stand by it nonetheless. There was no particular finality to his last battle.

Also, and I'll say this because I'm getting this sort of overall vibe about Thog from a number of posters... in defense of those that ARE fans of Thog (I'm much more a fan of, say, Tarquin than I am of Thog: I was more jazzed about Zzdtri's re-entry into the comic than Thog's, because of how far back that call-back went)... liking Thog and his brand of humor doesn't mean one thing or the other about that fan. Disliking Thog or thinking his brand of humor is silly and that things have 'progressed beyond' Thog means just as little, IMO. One is not more or less mature for liking or not liking his style of humor. The two things are completely independent.

Really smart and mature people can get a kick out of Thog. Immature and foolish individuals can consider Thog's brand of humor beneath them. There's no real correlation.



If you're saying that Thog might come back because he *is* dumb as bricks and thus won't disrupt the plotline too much, well, how is he going to actually get at Tarquin to kill him if that's the case? I'm sure Tarquin has plenty of safeguards against assassination.

It's not that Thog is as dumb as bricks that meaning that he won't disrupt the plotline too much, it's that nobody CARES about Thog in the comic. He has his fans out here -- believe it or not I'm not really a big Thog fan myself, I just think that character doesn't 'feel' done -- but in the story nobody is really much interested in Thog. Actually if anything TARQUIN seems to care more about Thog's presence than anyone in the entire comic, because the Orc seems to have an uncanny ability to break all his stuff.

Thog, on the other hand, does care about people in the comic -- when he can comprehend they are in danger. Therefore he would react to Nale's death, would react to Sabine's anger over Nale's death. It might be in a stupid thog reaction that can be played for humor (or maybe a sort of unusual drama), but it would be a reaction.

As for Tarquin having lots of guards, most of them are of the sort that Thog can just Gordian Knot them... aka, just smack right through them.

[Nilan8888]

Revenge against the OOTS? For what? Last time we saw Sabine she was rooting for Vaarsuvius to go get 'em, and the Order wasn't responsible for Nale's death anyway.


Being evil, Sabine might not make much distinction. The OOTS might kill Tarquin only for Sabine to then turn around and be willing to kill them because, if Nale hadn't been so obsessed with them, he wouldn't have gotten tangled back up with Dad.

Not particularly likely I suppose, but not an unbelievable thing to happen.



Sabine explicitly can't interfere in the current fight, 'cause she's banished. I'm not seeing the drama in her (and/or Thog) going after Tarquin later. Drama happens when characters you care about are put in interesting situations. I don't care about some evil orc's revenge plot, and I certainly don't care about some evil devil's revenge plot. Neither Sabine nor Thog have ever been sympathetic characters.

Thog's too dumb to have a revenge plot. He'd be part of someone else's. As for them being sympathetic characters, I would disagree. There's been points where I think the reader is meant to be sympathetic towards them. I don't think we're ever supposed to forget what sorts of things these characters are capable of, but I do think there's supposed to be something tugging at your empathy strings when Sabine says her last goodbye to Nale upon banishment, for instance.

[orrion]

Being evil, Sabine might not make much distinction. The OOTS might kill Tarquin only for Sabine to then turn around and be willing to kill them because, if Nale hadn't been so obsessed with them, he wouldn't have gotten tangled back up with Dad.

Not particularly likely I suppose, but not an unbelievable thing to happen.

You mean except for the part where Nale was in the Empire of Blood for months before the Order was anywhere nearby and actively seeking audience with Tarquin's now-deceased wife?

He tangled himself back up.



Thog's too dumb to have a revenge plot. He'd be part of someone else's. As for them being sympathetic characters, I would disagree. There's been points where I think the reader is meant to be sympathetic towards them. I don't think we're ever supposed to forget what sorts of things these characters are capable of, but I do think there's supposed to be something tugging at your empathy strings when Sabine says her last goodbye to Nale upon banishment, for instance.

Well, for one thing, nobody knew at the time that it was her last goodbye. Except Rich, that is.

I feel no sympathy for the evil succubus who got banished in the middle of her attempt to outright murder a group of people.

[hamishspence]

How about when we see that Sabine was watching Nale die on the screen Down Below?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html

[Nilan8888]

You mean except for the part where Nale was in the Empire of Blood for months before the Order was anywhere nearby and actively seeking audience with Tarquin's now-deceased wife?

He tangled himself back up.


Well yeah, of course he did. But will Sabine necessarily see it that way when she doesn't have to? Nale certainly wouldn't.

Then again, she might. My point is simply that some of these characters have no shame, and are only too quick to blame others for their own mistakes, or even go on to blame more people after that. Anything to get out of looking in that mirror. That Nale is really responsible for a lot of what befell him isn't going to be the sort of truth that Sabine is going to want to hear.




Well, for one thing, nobody knew at the time that it was her last goodbye. Except Rich, that is.

I feel no sympathy for the evil succubus who got banished in the middle of her attempt to outright murder a group of people.

Why not? We're all human. True, there's something to be said for a 'don't feed the animals' attitude towards these very dangerous people, but that's one of the great things about fiction. Is everything about Sabine or Thog or Nale defined by their misdeeds? Some could argue that there is more to a person than their sins.

[Jay R]

Thog's too dumb to have a revenge plot.

Not necessarily. Isn't this a revenge plot?

TALKY MAN HURT PUPPY!! THOG KILL TALKY MAN!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html)

And don't forget, TALKY MAN BROKE THOG'S TUSK! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html)

[b_jonas]

In #793, Nale says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) "when the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead unless you see the body." This makes me sure that Thog is alive. Of course, Nale could be wrong here.

However, I don't think Thog will arrive to this current fight.

[Cerussite]

b) it's unlikely that he'd know, so I think you're spot on; he's not likely to show up.

Nonono, that makes it even MORE likely that he'd show up. Thog has a propensity for being where no one expects him.

[Trillium]

In #793, Nale says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) "when the bad guy dies off-screen, he's not really dead unless you see the body." This makes me sure that Thog is alive. Of course, Nale could be wrong here.

However, I don't think Thog will arrive to this current fight.

He comes riding a 3ceratops covered with ranch dressing and lemon pudding.
Don't ask how.

[Jay R]

I find it likely that at some stage of the story before the end, the antagonists and situations and problems will diminish.

Don't ever read Game of Thrones.


He comes riding a 3ceratops covered with ranch dressing and lemon pudding.
Don't ask how.

... accompanied by a wooden alpaca stuffed with potato salad.

And, yes, the plan still involves rocket skates.

[Trillium]

... accompanied by a wooden alpaca stuffed with potato salad.

And, yes, the plan still involves rocket skates.

Such an appearance is a one-in-a-million chance. Oh damn...

[Kish]

Don't ever read Game of Thrones.
Always good advice. *ducks*

[StLordeth]

Is everything about Sabine or Thog or Nale defined by their misdeeds? Some could argue that there is more to a person than their sins. When all you've seen of a character or person is misdeeds, then I think it's safe to judge them based on that.

Nale and Sabine have no redeemable qualities that I can recall, and Thog is simply childish.

That being said, Tarquin is a good character and I like him a lot. I wouldn't mind him dying to Thog, but there'd have to be a reason, not just Thog randomly showing up and brawling with him. I think it's actually probable that Sabine will be the cause of Tarquin's death, if he dies at all.

[AKA_Bait]

Nale and Sabine have no redeemable qualities that I can recall, and Thog is simply childish.

Nale and Sabine have a healthy relationship? Also, Thog is not simply childish. He is a childish psychopathic murderer.

[StLordeth]

Nale and Sabine have a healthy relationship? Also, Thog is not simply childish. He is a childish psychopathic murderer. Healthy Relationship? Maybe recently, but until this book, I didn't really get that vibe.

Regarding Thog, I named the possible one redeeming feature about him. I was stating that was it; he was childish. I certainly wasn't saying he was not an evil monster.

[AKA_Bait]

Healthy Relationship? Maybe recently, but until this book, I didn't really get that vibe.

I'm just going by Sabine's assessment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html).

[StLordeth]

I'm just going by Sabine's assessment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html). In most unhealthy relationships, they think it's all good and healthy.

[AstralFire]

Most normal definitions of healthy relationship don't involve two psychopathic "evil for the sake of evil" people who genuinely love each other, so using normal definitions might not be the best term. I see nothing to really suggest their relationship is emotionally harmful to either one.

[StLordeth]

Most normal definitions of healthy relationship don't involve two psychopathic "evil for the sake of evil" people who genuinely love each other, so using normal definitions might not be the best term. I see nothing to really suggest their relationship is emotionally harmful to either one. If you don't have a standard to base it off of, how can one claim it's healthy then? How do you define healthy? If we're just making off-the-wall "not normal" definitions, than you could say any relationship is healthy.

Regardless, that wasn't my argument. I don't think a "healthy relationship" involving a demon and a sociopathic mass murderer is really a redeeming quality anyway. My point was that the Linear Guild main members really showed no qualities even close to the goodly spectrum.

[Kish]

I see nothing to really suggest their relationship is emotionally harmful to either one.
What about when it led to Sabine sitting in a bar pouring her heart out to an enemy?

[AstralFire]

What about when it led to Sabine sitting in a bar pouring her heart out to an enemy?

Clarification: I don't think we have any indication that it's more harmful than helpful to them emotionally. Even healthy relationships have the occasional heartache.


Regardless, that wasn't my argument. I don't think a "healthy relationship" involving a demon and a sociopathic mass murderer is really a redeeming quality anyway. My point was that the Linear Guild main members really showed no qualities even close to the goodly spectrum.

I agree.

[AKA_Bait]

For the record, I was pointing that out as a joke...

[AstralFire]

For the record, I was pointing that out as a joke...

I'm a law student now, Bait, so I'm even more pedantic than before! (Aside: It's good to see you again lately and I like the new avatar.)

[AKA_Bait]

I'm a law student now, Bait, so I'm even more pedantic than before! (Aside: It's good to see you again lately and I like the new avatar.)

I'm a lawyer, and that's totally acceptable no excuse! (Aside: Thanks! I was gone for that pesky thing called law school. Feel free to PM me if you ever need/want advice on that sort of stuff.).

[AstralFire]

I'm a lawyer, and that's totally acceptable no excuse! (Aside: Thanks! I was gone for that pesky thing called law school. Feel free to PM me if you ever need/want advice on that sort of stuff.).

I know you're a lawyer, it's why I mentioned it. :) I may take you up on that offer as soon as tonight, haha. Just finished prepping a presentation.

[Slithy a Kobold]

Nale and thog will be back

Nale gets turned into a demon or something

Thog is like pinkie pie DONT QUESTION THEM

[Jay R]

What about when it led to Sabine sitting in a bar pouring her heart out to an enemy?

That had nothing (directly) to do with their romantic relationship. Sabine thought he was going to kill Haley.

[Kish]

Right, and she thought that he valued their romantic relationship enough not to kill someone he knew she really wanted to kill without her.

Sniff. Poor Sabine.

[Jay R]

I think I'd like to believe that sitting in a bar weeping, while pouring her heart out to an enemy, is an integral part of being literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex.

Licit sex shouldn't lead to that.

[AKA_Bait]

Right, and she thought that he valued their romantic relationship enough not to kill someone he knew she really wanted to kill without her.

Sniff. Poor Sabine.

And, let's not forget, it turned out that he did!

[WindStruck]

I once humorously quipped that Thog would bludgeon Tarquin to death with his father of the year plaque. Off screen. :smallbiggrin:

[orrion]

And, let's not forget, it turned out that he did!

I always thought he just managed to Bluff his way past Sabine at that point.. 'cause when Sabine said "you were going to kill her" Nale also said he was going to kill her.

[Kish]

I always thought he just managed to Bluff his way past Sabine at that point.. 'cause when Sabine said "you were going to kill her" Nale also said he was going to kill her.
Yeah, me too. When Nale was holding the dagger right before Elan, Sabine, and Thog burst in, Haley was an inch from death; he just lied to Sabine when she yelled at him for it.

[Jay R]

Agreed. His story doesn't match what we actually saw. And he was specifically looking for a way to amuse himself while Sabine was gone. The only reasons to believe him are his own words - and Nale just doesn't have a high enough reputation for honor.

[Clistenes]

Yes please, let Thog kill Tarquin without anybody ever learning about all his plots and schemes, let him pass into obscurity and his soul be thrown to the great lava lake with the other nameless larvae...Let Tarquin be just a nameless mook, a minion, a random encounter, a minor side quest... :smallbiggrin:

For the people who claim that Thog is dead: When Nale asked about him, Tarquin didn't answer "he's dead", he answered "we aren't using him, he's to unpredictable and unreliable". Tarquin probably left him locked in his cell at the arena.

[AstralFire]

It's like you never read any of the well-argued points for why Tarquin may have said that.

[Clistenes]

Those points can be shortened to one: "Tarquin wanted Thog dead, so, if Thog survived the collapse of the arena, Tarquin had him killed while he was unconscious"

But Tarquin could have killed him anytime he wished. Tarquin's minions moved Thog around chained and gagged, they could just have "coup-de-grace-d" him, cutting his throat.

And, during all that time, Tarquin didn't kill Thog, not because he couldn't do it, but because he made a popular entertaiment for the masses, and Tarquin was reluctant to waste that. Nothing of that has changed.

If Roy were still a gladiator, he could have replaced Thog as the star, but, since Roy isn't there, there is no reason to dismiss Thog.

If Tarquin knew that Thog was dead or had killed or were planning to kill Thog, he would answer "he's dead, crushed under the wreckage".

[Everyl]

Those points can be shortened to one: "Tarquin wanted Thog dead, so, if Thog survived the collapse of the arena, Tarquin had him killed while he was unconscious"

But Tarquin could have killed him anytime he wished. Tarquin's minions moved Thog around chained and gagged, they could just have "coup-de-grace-d" him, cutting his throat.

And, during all that time, Tarquin didn't kill Thog, not because he couldn't do it, but because he made a popular entertaiment for the masses, and Tarquin was reluctant to waste that. Nothing of that has changed.

If Roy were still a gladiator, he could have replaced Thog as the star, but, since Roy isn't there, there is no reason to dismiss Thog.

If Tarquin knew that Thog was dead or had killed or were planning to kill Thog, he would answer "he's dead, crushed under the wreckage".

Tarquin wanted Thog dead, but he didn't want to disappoint the crowds by just having a popular champion murdered. When Thog very publicly suffered a fate that looks basically impossible to survive, after an impressive and high-profile match with a dark-horse gladiator during a series of battles to celebrate the return of Tarquin's long-lost son, I'm pretty sure that Tarquin could feel safe in having Thog quietly coup-de-graced without upsetting the crowd. Even for someone without Tarquin's love of a good narrative, that sounds like a fitting end to Thog's reign as champion.

As for why Tarquin would choose the words he did, there are a number of possibilities. Maybe they hadn't yet confirmed Thog's death or survival, so he was dismissing the possibility of employing the maybe-still-alive Thog. Maybe he knew full well that his soldiers had systematically dismembered Thog as they excavated each of his limbs, but he was dodging around the issue because he knew that saying, "I had your stupidly-loyal meat shield killed" would have antagonized Nale and made it harder to manipulate him into tacitly accepting his authority. Maybe he just didn't want Nale to waste time thinking about companions who Tarquin considered unreliable at all. Maybe he wanted to end the discussion of Thog without giving Nale a chance to push for resurrection - which, as a favor to the murderer of Malack's children, would have been very difficult to talk Malack into performing.

[Jay R]

Most normal definitions of healthy relationship don't involve two psychopathic "evil for the sake of evil" people who genuinely love each other, ...[Citation needed]

[Knaight]

What about when it led to Sabine sitting in a bar pouring her heart out to an enemy?

Who she had no idea was an enemy at the time.

[orrion]

Who she had no idea was an enemy at the time.

What? Sabine definitely knew V was an enemy at the time.

[Kish]

What? Sabine definitely knew V was an enemy at the time.
Indeed, what she was mad at Nale for, was choosing to kill Haley first when Vaarsuvius was an obvious vulnerable target.

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin wanted Thog dead, but he didn't want to disappoint the crowds by just having a popular champion murdered. When Thog very publicly suffered a fate that looks basically impossible to survive, after an impressive and high-profile match with a dark-horse gladiator during a series of battles to celebrate the return of Tarquin's long-lost son, I'm pretty sure that Tarquin could feel safe in having Thog quietly coup-de-graced without upsetting the crowd. Even for someone without Tarquin's love of a good narrative, that sounds like a fitting end to Thog's reign as champion.

Well, WE saw the climax of that battle, the crowd didn't.


As for why Tarquin would choose the words he did, there are a number of possibilities. Maybe they hadn't yet confirmed Thog's death or survival, so he was dismissing the possibility of employing the maybe-still-alive Thog. Maybe he knew full well that his soldiers had systematically dismembered Thog as they excavated each of his limbs, but he was dodging around the issue because he knew that saying, "I had your stupidly-loyal meat shield killed" would have antagonized Nale and made it harder to manipulate him into tacitly accepting his authority. Maybe he just didn't want Nale to waste time thinking about companions who Tarquin considered unreliable at all. Maybe he wanted to end the discussion of Thog without giving Nale a chance to push for resurrection - which, as a favor to the murderer of Malack's children, would have been very difficult to talk Malack into performing.

Yeah, but none of these possibilities are particularly satisfying to the narrative. If a long-running character dies in such a way that you have to start explaining things after its done and why certain people said certain things, it's probably best just to bring them back and kill 'em off better next time, unless you're retconning by doing so.

[Everyl]

Well, WE saw the climax of that battle, the crowd didn't.

The crowd saw two gladiators crash through the stands, then, a few seconds later, a large portion of the arena collapsed around the spot where they disappeared, and the fighting stopped. The only real information they're missing is that the collapse was part of an improvised tactic by Roy, and he wasn't under it, too.


Yeah, but none of these possibilities are particularly satisfying to the narrative. If a long-running character dies in such a way that you have to start explaining things after its done and why certain people said certain things, it's probably best just to bring them back and kill 'em off better next time, unless you're retconning by doing so.

If the narrative point is to conceal Thog's death so as to avoid tipping the readers off to the Linear Guild's TPK-in-progress*, then any of those explanations work fine from a narrative standpoint. Tarquin's big on conspicuously talking around things he already knows to conceal them from the audience, and in this case, he has in-character reasons to conceal those points from Nale, as well.

*Yeah, Sabine isn't dead, but in a D&D world, the practical difference between "banished to an Outer Plane, with a chance of returning later" and "Dead, but with the chance of revival later" is mostly a matter of creature type.

[Trickquestion]

I just had this great mental image of Tarquin limping back to the city after the Order made an escape and dinged him up in the process. He's tired, he's battered, and he's distracted, furiously scheming away in his head how to bring this narrative back in line. Then, Thog, who dug himself out of the stadium, thoughtlessly kill Tarquin in some back alley while wandering without knowing who it was. Then he publicly urinates on him.

[Nilan8888]

If the narrative point is to conceal Thog's death so as to avoid tipping the readers off to the Linear Guild's TPK-in-progress*, then any of those explanations work fine from a narrative standpoint. Tarquin's big on conspicuously talking around things he already knows to conceal them from the audience, and in this case, he has in-character reasons to conceal those points from Nale, as well.

The thing is, when you're writing something, you don't say before it's written "I'd normally give this person a death that satisfies the narrative, but I don't want to tip my hand for events later". You say "I don't want to tip off the readers that this is the end of the Linear Guild, so I just won't actually kill this guy off yet". The other way is backwards from some how a person would write it. If the death has an inadequate payoff, why keep it? Because it happened in a Gladitorial Arena and had a cool fight sequence? It's better just to hold off until there's a better moment.

That is, you say what the narrative point is to conceal Thog's death, but not what the point is of him being dead to begin with. So what's easier than concealing Thog's death from the reader? Thog not actually being dead yet.

[SaintRidley]

Or you say, more reasonably, that you don't want to tip off readers that this is the end of the Linear Guild, so you give the member a death that's fitting to the narrative and which is ambiguous enough to keep the fact of what you're doing up your sleeve.

[Nilan8888]

Or you say, more reasonably, that you don't want to tip off readers that this is the end of the Linear Guild, so you give the member a death that's fitting to the narrative and which is ambiguous enough to keep the fact of what you're doing up your sleeve.

Where you say "ambiguous" is exactly where we talk past one another.

An ambiguous "death" is good enough if you're trying to keep the feel of the piece like other encounters with the antagonists, and then up the stakes by going after the main antagonist of the group first.

But once that is done and the moment that you were holding off on is over, that ambiguous death just turns into a loose thread, because it is... ambiguous. You can't just take a character that's been in the strip as long as Thog has and say right up until the end, "well MAYBE he's dead". Well that is you can, but everyone's just going to be asking questions about it up to and past the end of the story, which is undesirable. This thread being evidence of that.

One could say "oh but you should just accept that the character is not coming back", or some such. And there's maybe a point there, but the opposite point is that "you should just accept that people are always going to be asking where Thog is" because that's just the natural inclination of a lot of readers, whether they even like Thog or not. "Hey, whatever happened to..." is one of the most natural questions a story answers, and the bigger the character, the more likely that question gets asked. People might not care what happened to those two assassins, but Thog's got a much larger profile than them.

[orrion]

But once that is done and the moment that you were holding off on is over, that ambiguous death just turns into a loose thread, because it is... ambiguous. You can't just take a character that's been in the strip as long as Thog has and say right up until the end, "well MAYBE he's dead". Well that is you can, but everyone's just going to be asking questions about it up to and past the end of the story, which is undesirable. This thread being evidence of that.


Wait, why is that undesirable?

[Nilan8888]

Wait, why is that undesirable?

Just ask the writers of LOST.

[Knaight]

What? Sabine definitely knew V was an enemy at the time.

Right. Sorry, I had that backwards, somehow, in that V didn't know Sabine was the one they were talking to.

[Jay R]

I find it fascinating that people are willing to make definitive predictions or conclusions based on standard story expectations, when a major plot element has been Tarquin's misreading of the situation based on his misinterpretation of exactly which story expectations apply.

[Orm-Embar]

I find it fascinating that people are willing to make definitive predictions or conclusions based on standard story expectations, when a major plot element has been Tarquin's misreading of the situation based on his misinterpretation of exactly which story expectations apply.

Since we in the audience are just like Tarquin, clearly we are the ones who are the real monsters.

Or Giant is just that good at subverting expectations. :smallbiggrin:

[orrion]

Just ask the writers of LOST.

Ok, but if you're a writer who wants said speculation then it's not undesirable, is it?

[Nilan8888]

Ok, but if you're a writer who wants said speculation then it's not undesirable, is it?

I suppose not, but then that would beg the question: why would anyone want such speculation?

Not all levels of speculation are equal. For instance, there's some sorts of speculation where the questions can be an end to themselves: you don't know, and you know you'll never know, and that's sort of a cool point (as the Giant might say "it's not a bug, it's a feature").

Question like, "what's going on beneath Darth Vader's mask" back during the original trilogy. One of the great things about that character was that since his face was always hidden from view, you could read certain things differently.

The same with the ending of "The Thing" (c. 1980). Is either one of them the Thing? Is neither of them? At what point did anyone become it? Any answer you give adds to the story, even if it doesn't get answered (I prefer to think neither one of them were the Thing, but are too paranoid by this point to trust one another).

Thog's fate isn't particularly interesting in that way. Sure, you can leave it hanging ambiguously, but to me wanting that sort of speculation is like wanting peanut butter stuck to the top of your mouth: it's just so ANNOYING. It's like completing that huge epic task that took you years, but knowing there's just this one thing that keeps it from being complete.

Thog isn't what you would call a deep character. He's not going to go off and have his own adventures or some sort of sequel that's not based on pure slapstick comedy. So ideally you want to deal with him in the current story and not leave him for later since he's not, dramatically speaking, worth the later effort. But at the same time NOT dealing with him in the same general way Nale or Miko were dealt with leaves the question open when it doesn't have to be, and by its own nature invites inevitable speculation on an otherwise pointless topic. Does it matter why Walt just suddenly wasn't important anymore on LOST in the last 3 or so seasons? No, but the mere fact he was there early on and all that time invested in him back then just makes the story seem incomplete without appropriately visiting the character (which is why they filmed that epilogue).

The more time spent on a character in a story, the more they become part of that story. And the more they become part of that story, the more the story becomes naturally responsible for showing you their final fate. Which means if Thog dies, you show ultimately him dead. If he doesn't die, you strongly suggest what that fate was, whether it's rotting in Tarquin's dungeons forever, or going on a puppy-filled intercontinental tour of ice cream parlors.

[orrion]

I suppose not, but then that would beg the question: why would anyone want such speculation?

Not all levels of speculation are equal. For instance, there's some sorts of speculation where the questions can be an end to themselves: you don't know, and you know you'll never know, and that's sort of a cool point (as the Giant might say "it's not a bug, it's a feature").

Question like, "what's going on beneath Darth Vader's mask" back during the original trilogy. One of the great things about that character was that since his face was always hidden from view, you could read certain things differently.

The same with the ending of "The Thing" (c. 1980). Is either one of them the Thing? Is neither of them? At what point did anyone become it? Any answer you give adds to the story, even if it doesn't get answered (I prefer to think neither one of them were the Thing, but are too paranoid by this point to trust one another).

Thog's fate isn't particularly interesting in that way. Sure, you can leave it hanging ambiguously, but to me wanting that sort of speculation is like wanting peanut butter stuck to the top of your mouth: it's just so ANNOYING. It's like completing that huge epic task that took you years, but knowing there's just this one thing that keeps it from being complete.

Thog isn't what you would call a deep character. He's not going to go off and have his own adventures or some sort of sequel that's not based on pure slapstick comedy. So ideally you want to deal with him in the current story and not leave him for later since he's not, dramatically speaking, worth the later effort. But at the same time NOT dealing with him in the same general way Nale or Miko were dealt with leaves the question open when it doesn't have to be, and by its own nature invites inevitable speculation on an otherwise pointless topic. Does it matter why Walt just suddenly wasn't important anymore on LOST in the last 3 or so seasons? No, but the mere fact he was there early on and all that time invested in him back then just makes the story seem incomplete without appropriately visiting the character (which is why they filmed that epilogue).

The more time spent on a character in a story, the more they become part of that story. And the more they become part of that story, the more the story becomes naturally responsible for showing you their final fate. Which means if Thog dies, you show ultimately him dead. If he doesn't die, you strongly suggest what that fate was, whether it's rotting in Tarquin's dungeons forever, or going on a puppy-filled intercontinental tour of ice cream parlors.

You seem to be assuming the Giant will just never tell. While that's possible, you can't say it's going to happen until we actually get to the end.

I'm reminded of The Wheel of Time, where every fan was speculating on who killed Asmodean for the next 7 books. The author refused to answer directly until then, saying he thought it was "obvious."

You also appear to be adapting your personal stance to be everyone's personal stance. Since you don't find Thog or Thog's fate interesting, you're thinking nobody else does. As you said earlier.. "this thread is evidence" that you're wrong.

[Nilan8888]

You seem to be assuming the Giant will just never tell. While that's possible, you can't say it's going to happen until we actually get to the end.

Why would you say I would assume that? I'm just saying what would happen if that's the last we saw of Thog. I'm not saying, obviously, that it's going to be the last we see of Thog.

Although I do think that if it is the last we see of Thog, and the author then just says what happened to him later, that it would be certainly unsatisfying for me. Because the story should be the venue for telling the audience what goes on and what happens with the characters (the later Star Wars films are good evidence of this, where the whole importance of the Sith and their legacy is basically relegated to off-film).



I'm reminded of The Wheel of Time, where every fan was speculating on who killed Asmodean for the next 7 books. The author refused to answer directly until then, saying he thought it was "obvious."

I haven't read it, so I can't comment. Well, I started the first book, but never got past the first couple chapters. It just wasn't appealing to me at the time.



You also appear to be adapting your personal stance to be everyone's personal stance. Since you don't find Thog or Thog's fate interesting, you're thinking nobody else does. As you said earlier.. "this thread is evidence" that you're wrong.

Well sure some people will find Thog's fate interesting. I'm not everyone. But I'm not sure most people would. Or to the degree they do, it's purely for the comedy. I'm not sure there's a lot of people wondering if Thog will get back in touch with his parents, or pay off his student loan. Maybe there's dozens or even hundreds that do, but I don't think they're in the majority.

[SlashDash]

But once that is done and the moment that you were holding off on is over, that ambiguous death just turns into a loose thread, because it is... ambiguous. You can't just take a character that's been in the strip as long as Thog has and say right up until the end, "well MAYBE he's dead". Well that is you can, but everyone's just going to be asking questions about it up to and past the end of the story, which is undesirable. This thread being evidence of that.

You never saw Sanctuary, did you? :D