How to go about being Evil

[Icefrosty171]

Hi we have started the Kingmaker campaign and I decided to go with a neutral evil Fetchling summoner, no one else but the gm knows I'm evil, our party consists of Me, a Fighter, Paladin, Witch, Ranger, and a Druid. I know I can take them out one on one if I really wanted to, but I would like to know what is a good time to betray the party, around what level, who to go for first, things to look out for, and how to do it. This is my first time playing an Evil character with the intentions of killing the party but most of all, looking for self advancement by any means necessary. Most everyone trusts my character except the ranger and fighter are a little suspicious of me. Also my character is power hungry.

[ArcturusV]

I'm not familiar with the adventure module in itself...

... but... why look to betray your party?

When I play Evil, one thing I keep in mind is being Goal Oriented. Most horrible stories about some Evil PC that ruined a campaign is because the Evil is shortsighted, stupid evil. I steal from my teammates because they have something shiny. I burn down an orphanage because it felt like it. I pissed off the Lady of Pain because she was there. Etc, etc, etc.

But, if you take a long term view, if your character has a goal other than "be an evil mother****er", there's really no reason to ever betray the party. No matter what your goals are, typically "I have powerful, loyal friends" makes it easier. That simple. It's generally in your best interests (Long term) to not betray your party. I can't quite understand the desire to play it otherwise, other than just wanting to be "That Guy" who ruins a campaign. Take over the world? Having trusted lieutenants around the world, ruling small areas and in your thrall because you were their "Party Leader" years ago and they trust your vision and plans? Makes it a lot easier than trying to kill everyone you come across. Attain unlimited arcane power? Having a party of adventurers who are willing to invade heaven/hell at your request for a plot hook, to attain macguffins needed seems like a good thing.

[theIrkin]

A technical point: how does your paladin not know you're evil?

Leaving that aside, why betray them openly? Why not try to get them to help you in nefarious schemes? Kill political enemies in the name of the greater good!

Is your stated goal to kill the PC's? Because the longer you can use them for your own purposes, the better.

[Red Fel]

Going with everyone on this.

1: I don't know the Kingmaker module. That said, practicality says that the best time to betray them is when it maximizes your gain. The name of the module suggests that your party's goal is to set up someone in power - the best time to betray your party is therefore (1) if the person is good, when you can make people believe that your party is setting themselves up to destroy that powerful figure, thus making you out to be a hero; or (2) if the person is non-good, making it clear to the person that it's easier to be indebted to a single person who is willing to compromise on morality to get things done, versus being indebted to a party of do-gooders who can't keep a secret.

2: Seconding the above notion: Why betray your party? Evil isn't all about rubbing your hands together and plotting to ruin "those wretched do-gooders." Heck, your character might even like them. They're probably more useful alive than dead.

3: Echoing the above: How does your Paladin not know that you're evil? Is his Detect Evil on the fritz? Does he not care?

Betraying allies usually generates a short-term benefit, leading to a long-term disadvantage. So don't ring that bell unless you're absolutely sure that the payout is massive.

[Keneth]

Why betray your party? I could see wanting to get rid of the paladin, but other than that, it's counter-productive. True power comes from allies and connections, and what you're proposing is getting rid of some of the most powerful allies you can find. :smallconfused:

[Irk]

I remember the first time I killed my entire party. I just turned invisible and systematically murdered them using really crap spells (fireball) that were maximized (none of them had evasion or decent reflex saves). It was not difficult at all.

The second time required much more deliberation,a nd I was only killing one party member: the CE necromancer. Our group was planning a heist, and we had to decide between a train heist or ransoming this little girl I had kidnapped. First, I murdered the child in order to force the selection of the train heist and cement a relationship with the very sadistic necro.
Next, I took advantage of the Necro's trusting nature (IC and OOC, oddly enough), and then told him that I would launch him into the front of the train so he could kill the conductor. He agreed, and I organized with a separate unwitting party member to blow up the track i order to cause the train to fall. So what happened was I telekinetic thrusted the necro into oncoming train (he voluntarily failed the save), only to get crushed into the ground by a million tons of burning steel.

Job well done

Personally, I'd try to get the paladin to fall, or maybe somehow force a devil to force you to create a pact (summon it and order it to make you involuntarily sign a pact?) and then use the power it grants you to kill them all and take their stuff. Then, in hell, rule that the devil forced you to unwillingly sign the pact, as you technically did not want to do so.

[Mygicmeen]

Honestly that sounds like no fun for anyone but yourself. And excuse my language, but that's a **** move. I know if i was the guy that got stabbed in the back and perma died I'd be pissed. While playing evil can be fun, try to make it fun for everyone. People often forget that "my character would do that" really is you, and you really do have a choice about being a jerk.
I would say be evil, but let hints drop, or leave clues that you are evil. Let the group kill you, or reform you, have a reason as to why you are evil.

[Ravens_cry]

True.
Evil can be quite the team player. No need to be a betrayer. In fact, don't try to be evil at all. Just be expedient, amoral. Do what needs to be done, even if it isn't 'right'. Besides, it's Kingmaker. If you want power, being part of a ruling council for a nation is certainly powerful. Probably among the most power you can expect in a published campaign.

[Captnq]

Hi we have started the Kingmaker campaign and I decided to go with a neutral evil Fetchling summoner, no one else but the gm knows I'm evil, our party consists of Me, a Fighter, Paladin, Witch, Ranger, and a Druid. I know i can take them out one on one if I really wanted to, but I would like to know what is a good time to betray the party, around what level, who to go for first, things to look out for, and how to do it. This is my first time playing an Evil character with the intentions of killing the party but most of all, looking for self advancement by any means necessary. Most everyone trust my character except the ranger and fighter are a little suspicious of me. Also my character is power hungry.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!! Oh GOD! That is SO FUNNY!!!
And you know what's even funnier?
YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOUR DM!!!

So ask yourself, why HASN'T the paladin noticed you are evil? Hmmm? He just never used detect evil? And the cleric? How many times has the cleric turned undead? You know, the class of "Witch"... doesn't sound very... "good" to me.

So tell me... what are the chances your DM made EVERYONE Evil, but told each of you that "YOU are the only evil one in the group"? Hmmm? Are you SURE you are the ONLY evil person in the group? Are you POSITIVE about that? I noticed you even posted you are new at the whole being evil and betraying people thing.

Your post just keeps getting funnier, every time I read it. When are "YOU" going to betray everyone else! Jumping Jesus Jimmity Cricket Christ on a Crutch!

Seriously, man. You made my night.

[Icefrosty171]

Thank you for your answers, I have read over your posts and decided that it will be much better to try to get the party to do my bidding as best I can, this will be much more fun for everyone. The only reason I would kill someone is if they are in my way or I don't really have a choice.

[Angelalex242]

I'd like to remind you of a relevant Paladin Rule:

A Paladin may NOT adventure with people of evil alignment. Never. Not ever. Not just this once. Not just because you asked nicely.

In short, unless you've got a magic item of permanent undetectable alignment, you should expect the Paladin to throw your ass out of the party and out of the game...if he's reasonable.

If he's not, expect to be smited on notice. "Evil fiend! How dare you adventure with ME!?"

[Keneth]

Since they're playing Kingmaker, I assume they're using Pathfinder rules, and in Pathfinder paladins can adventure with evil companions as long as they feel it serves a greater good. They may have to atone every once in a while, but otherwise it's not prohibited as it was in 3.5.

And rightly so, being of an evil alignment doesn't automatically make your deeds any more inherently evil or worthy of punishment than any other alignment. Even if your motivation is ultimately nothing but the thirst for power. It's just a different view on things and a different set of personal values. It's also why I don't condone murdering "always evil" creatures unless they have the (evil) subtype. There's a difference between being righteous and being self-righteous.

That's also the reason why the scond B in BBEG is there. Not every evil guy is bad, and every bad guy most certainly isn't evil. A paladin going around killing anything that blips on their evil radar is just as worthy of being a BBG and deserving of a smite.

Amusingly enough, paladins in my games can smite anything, so I might actually make use of a story where a paladin (and party) goes after another paladin that's gone too far...

[Icefrosty171]

Our Paladin has not used detect evil on me or at all yet, hes kinda a noob.

"At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range".

Also, I have not done anything to make him suspect me of being evil.

[Angelalex242]

Ah. If he's a noob, you might be safe.

As the ancient saying goes, can't fix stupid.

[Coidzor]

You don't even need to betray the party, just maneuver so you're the one who becomes King/Head of State. Once you've established a power base, divide and conquer, feed into their paranoia by taking out the Witch and Druid, preferably in a way that makes it look like someone is trying to frame one of the other characters, badly, but without giving away your involvement. With no other magic users in the party and your character with any hired magic users firmly in your personal sway, the other guys are basically blind and don't even need to be eliminated.

That said, springing PVP betrayal when it's not been established as an option on the other players is kind of a **** move on the part of the DM and yourself.

[Forrestfire]

How do you go about being Evil? The same way you go about being Good, just with different motivations.

Save the princess from a dragon? Sure, but you're paying me for it. Clean out a dungeon filled with demonic undead? You're not doing it for glory and Goodness, you're doing it because they're rivals, and because you can use that dungeon once it's empty. Saving the world from the BBEG? You don't even need something in it for you, it's the world. You live there, and this upstart is trying to break it? Etc...

Why would you betray your party? A smart evil character knows that these people have been working with and trusting him for adventure after adventure, so all the better to keep them around.

[BrokenChord]

This seems basically resolved, but just wanted to say, I LIKE questions like these, because people like tippy and biff can't waltz in and say "use this race, make sure your DM doesn't notice this obscure alternate class feature, and throw in that one feat that makes the super popular spell combination work flawlessly for perfect infallible party betraying".

[molten_dragon]

I would like to know what is a good time to betray the party, around what level, who to go for first, things to look out for, and how to do it.

Wait until the whole adventure path is over before you do it. That way you aren't being a selfish ass having your own fun at the expense of everyone else's.

It makes sense in-character too. While your fledgling kingdom is still growing and still facing regular threats, those other chumps are helpful to have around.

Waiting until things are calm and going well is practical.