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Morithias
2013-10-26, 08:06 PM
Alright seeing how I've put forward Rosewood multiple times as a setting without sexism I want people judgement on MY setting.

Rosewood is a setting based on what is probably one of the most insane and sexist pieces of work ever made, a Japanese Eroge.

Overall however, Rosewood has one key advantage that many of these other settings don't have...

...Rosewood is so insane and over the top that gender has nothing to do with anything.

The first Rosewood Campaign was a campaign called "Grimoire of the Rift" which was about sealing a demonic portal from invading the then solo country of Rosewood, based on Sengoku Japan. Naturally as both the map and setting was based on Rance 7, and many of the characters in Rance 7 were based on real people, many of the characters showed up as well, just re-purposed for a PG-13 version of it.

Naturally this meant that a LOT of primary characters were female. There is no "NPCs are normally male" in this setting. As the setting is based on Harem Animes, Eroges, Visual novels, and the insanity that comes from the JRPG, there are a lot of women, and each one is able to kick all kinds of butt.

Eventually I wanted to do something more dark and desperate, and this created Rise of the Demon King. Another campaign set in rosewood about stopping the creation and rise of a dark god that is possessing the body of a girl to save what is possibly all of creation.

And finally the Helman Revolution. Or as I like to call it "What if X-com existed in a fantasy universe." Set in Helman, based on the Roman empire, the Elder Evils "Hulks of Zoretha" are invading with the help of aberrations based on x-com aliens, so the goddess Mary rips 5 new avatars through the rift to help create the organization that will fight them off.

And finally we reach spoilers. Players of the current Rosewood might want to keep the next tab closed.

The current campaign is introducing the concept of the Precursors. An ancient civilization that could create powerful artifacts to bend the laws of reality themselves. As the group finds and searchs for the artifacts with the aid of Elyse an archaeologist, they discover that there may be something bigger in store for them then they thought. Possibly tying to the invasion of Helman?

As you can tell, this setting is more insane than Ultima 1. There is no need for 'gender roles' in this society. Are most of the NPCs female? Yeah, but that's because I'm an uncreative DM, who rather than create a new character, would rather re-purpose an old one that no one else has ever heard of. Sexism doesn't really matter when you have alien invasions, demons in your backyard, and the fact that most of the girls in the setting can still kick your butt. From Magic with her spellcasting, to Maria with her Bazooka. The guys aren't any pushovers either. Face Lee and his Silver dragon form! Challenge the mighty Seigen and his Death Scythe, and of course where would we be without the PCs? Whether male or female a PC can go the limit and show the world what a true hero or villain is like!

I think Rosewood might simply be not sexist on the idea of "I'm not overthinking the setting". Give me a female PC, a male PC, a transgender PC, I don't care. You can still give the Hulks a run for their money. Rather than try to go crazy and avoid offending anyone, I've just tried to write a setting that people can enjoy.

And quite frankly, sexism has never come up in Rosewood. Even when most of the NPCs are female, no one really seems to question it or care. The closest thing to "sexist" in Rosewood, is the fact that Lee likes maid outfits, and that's because he's oh I don't know, a hormonal young adult who sometimes thinks with his wrong head.

Grinner
2013-10-26, 08:22 PM
There's a very simple test for this.

Take any character. Would having a penis instead of boobs (or vice versa) be of any benefit to him whatsoever?

Morithias
2013-10-26, 08:23 PM
There's a very simple test for this.

Take any character. Would having a penis instead of boobs (or vice versa) be of any benefit to him whatsoever?

Nope! Outside of maybe being able to sleep with different NPCs. Which is a moot point because I'm pretty sure most forums including this one don't let us roleplay sex.

Grinner
2013-10-26, 08:31 PM
Outside of maybe being able to sleep with different NPCs. Which is a moot point because I'm pretty sure most forums including this one don't let us roleplay sex.

And with good reason!

Morithias
2013-10-26, 08:52 PM
And with good reason!

Hell with certain races in this setting. The changelings, the golems, and the demons, some people have both!

erikun
2013-10-26, 10:05 PM
It seems like it works, primarily because nobody seems to worry about it.
(This was actually one of my recommendations in the other thread/s: Focus the game on the hundreds of things other than gender roles.)

If I had to label a concern, it would be that all the ruling characters seem to be female. Other than that, why this is or how this came to be could either not matter at all, or have a very sensible (or silly) reason that could be changed.

Morithias
2013-10-26, 11:16 PM
It seems like it works, primarily because nobody seems to worry about it.
(This was actually one of my recommendations in the other thread/s: Focus the game on the hundreds of things other than gender roles.)

1/2. If I had to label a concern, it would be that all the ruling characters seem to be female. Other than that, why this is or how this came to be could either not matter at all, or have a very sensible (or silly) reason that could be changed.

1. Out of universe the "Why" is that Harem animes, visual novels, and eroges, tend to have a larger number of female characters for me to steal.

2. In-universe the "why" is that for some weird reason there were a LOT of girls born instead of guys. Call it random chance.

Edit: And no, it will NEVER be retconned into any kind of 'curse' or 'blessing' or any kind of supernatural cause. So don't ask.

The Fury
2013-10-29, 02:33 PM
The closest thing to "sexist" in Rosewood, is the fact that Lee likes maid outfits, and that's because he's oh I don't know, a hormonal young adult who sometimes thinks with his wrong head.

So is Lee like the Maidman from Empowered? If so, awesome.


There's a very simple test for this.

Take any character. Would having a penis instead of boobs (or vice versa) be of any benefit to him whatsoever?

Well, there's writing one's name in the snow. Though that doesn't become relevant very often.

AMFV
2013-10-29, 04:48 PM
Well I see nothing I would label as overtly sexist. Outside of the female rulers thing, and since that's mostly coincidence I would see no issue with the society as written, potentially with more information I may have different feelings, but no issues with what is presented.

Segev
2013-10-29, 04:53 PM
The closest thing to "sexist" in Rosewood, is the fact that Lee likes maid outfits, and that's because he's oh I don't know, a hormonal young adult who sometimes thinks with his wrong head.

Honestly? IF anything, that might be construed as sexist against men. After all, "thinking with the wrong head" is a stereotype about hormonal (oft-teenaged) boys; rarely is it considered a thing with girls. Obviously, you're portraying your rare male character as having less self control and being ruled by sex and as a predator!

Not bluing the above text because it's not quite that level of sarcasm.

That said, there's nothing wrong with the stereotype by itself, and if you're not out trying to say it means that men are awful people for daring to have thoughts about women as ... well, women ... it's not a problem. It's just a character trait.

It's a trope. Tropes are neither good nor bad by themselves. They just are tools.

It would be interesting to apply my favorite game to your Rosewood setting, though: don't just ask whether giving any female NPC a penis "advantages" her in some way. Invert the sex of EVERY character, alter names and costumes to the barest minimum to avoid making it a crossdressing-based joke setting (and avoiding physical impossibilities for the kind of species - usually human, I assume - these people are), and see how it changes the expectations.

For this particular character, Lee-as-a-girl might have a fetish for butler tuxedoes because she's a hormonal teenaged girl who doesn't always keep her appetites in check. Change nothing about her characterization; female!Lee should act with the same sort of lechery (open or closeted) and with the same level of comedic, charming, or confidence or shyness as male!Lee. Her butlers should react to this much as male!Lee's maids do (or, the boys to whom she applies this behavior should react similarly to how the girls to whom male!lee applies his do).

See how odd this behavior seems on a girl. I know my mental image...is spoilered so you can come up with yours before reading it...based on expected tropes, of a lecherous female who likes her serving staff of men tends to have less "dur-hurr" and uncouth drooling, and tends more towards the subtle or the domineering. And if the latter, she makes people uncomfortable but not offended, while the male version would offend and come off as somebody to be mocked.

But apply this to your whole setting, and see how it changes your perspective on things.


Another example (Negima) follows.
(As another example that can really illustrate the double standards, consider Negima. The canon version has 10-year-old Negi Springfield, a mage from England, come to teach English to an all-girl class of 14-year-olds in Japan at a boarding school. He winds up rooming with one of his students. The teen girls fawn on, adore, and treat as a cross between a kid brother and a potential romantic partner, young Negi.

Invert all genders, and 10-year-old Nadia Springfield, a sorceress from England, comes to Japan to teach English to an all-boy class of 14-year-olds at a boarding school. She winds up rooming with one of her students. The teen boys coddle, adore, and treat as a cross between a kid sister and a potential romantic partner, young Nadia.

The former may strike you as vaguely creepy, but it won't strike everybody as such. Teen girls with kid boys comes off, to many, as "adorable" and "motherly." There's no "adorable" and "fatherly" with teen boys getting this...personal...with a ten-year-old girl. It comes off very creepy very fast.

It COULD be done without getting creepy. I don't think how it's handled in the manga would manage that.)

Morithias
2013-10-29, 06:12 PM
Are you kidding?

I was in the cadets. And trust me, a lot of the girls in there made it VERY clear they like men in uniform and suits.

Quite frankly a female young adult who likes men in suits and acts like a playgirl?

I can totally see that.

Oh and as for cafes that have men in formal suits to appeal to women? Those exist in real life. They're called "Host clubs".

Also Lee doesn't have any maids of his own. It's just a fetish he has. True he's the Tokugawa diplomat, but when you're a dragon that can eat rocks, and cast magic you don't really need a maid to clean your house. He likes to look at them and ogle girls. Which some people on this forum HAVE claimed is sexist, but quite frankly I don't buy it.

Apparently looking at people you find attractive is sexist if you're not bi-sexual, who knew.

Personally I think changing the genders would have a backlash in Rosewood that has nothing to do with sexism.

Okay, the Rosewood setting is based on the Rance setting right? Well at the time of Rosewood's creation I did not know who the ruler of Helman was (Neither Rance 3, nor Rance 9 was translated. Hell Rance 9 isn't even out.), so I took a character from ANOTHER Alicesoft videogame, and re-purposed her to be Helman's leader.

http://s1.tsuki-board.net/pics/encyclopedia/28644.jpg?t=1312475089

Say hello to Retai Adolf.

...Yes the character is stolen from a World War 2 sci-fi parody game.

I question if making her male, since she's literally the alternate universes version of Hitler, would have made her get the same reaction she got from the group who played the Invasion of Helman campaign.

Lorsa
2013-10-29, 06:26 PM
You have described nothing that would be sexist as such. Also it sounds kind of fun in the over-the-top way that can be quite enjoyable at times.

The little I have seen of japanese anime, it seems they are usually quite good at depicting their characters Different. While there are tropes there seem to be few actual stereotypes as both girls and guys have a very broad range of traits.

I don't actually know what those terms "harem anime" etc mean though. I assume it's not really literal harems?

Morithias
2013-10-29, 06:38 PM
I don't actually know what those terms "harem anime" etc mean though. I assume it's not really literal harems?

A "Harem anime" basically means an anime where there is one person, and multiple people trying to date that one person.

Basically imagine an anime where a girl/boy has multiple boys/girls all in love with her/him, and trying to get her/him to pick them over the others.

Hilarity ensues.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaremGenre

Segev
2013-10-30, 09:11 AM
Are you kidding?

I was in the cadets. And trust me, a lot of the girls in there made it VERY clear they like men in uniform and suits.

Quite frankly a female young adult who likes men in suits and acts like a playgirl?

I can totally see that.Sure! I didn't say it couldn't work. The point is to see how much you have to change it to make it "work."


Oh and as for cafes that have men in formal suits to appeal to women? Those exist in real life. They're called "Host clubs".Ouran High School Host Club is an amusing anime. ^_^


Also Lee doesn't have any maids of his own. It's just a fetish he has. True he's the Tokugawa diplomat, but when you're a dragon that can eat rocks, and cast magic you don't really need a maid to clean your house. He likes to look at them and ogle girls. Which some people on this forum HAVE claimed is sexist, but quite frankly I don't buy it.

Apparently looking at people you find attractive is sexist if you're not bi-sexual, who knew.Well, part of it is... would the "playgirl" who likes boys in suits be treated the same way the playboy who likes girls in maid outfits is? How would that change things, if so?

Another egregious example: Love Hina. The male lead is the manager of what is effectively an apartment that functions like a girls' dorm. He actually isn't particularly lecherous - especially by anime standards - but convenient author-created accidents keep putting him in situations where he stumbles on various of his tenants in various stages of undress. One of these is physically violent in over-the-top cartoon fashion with him to punish each infraction, at least in part shown to be because she's embarrassed and angry at being seen. Once, she walked in on him while he was changing in his room, and was violent for him being "a pervert" by "exposing" himself to her.

This is all played for laughs. Invert the genders, and have a female manager of an all-male dorm-style apartment who keeps accidentally walking in on the guys in various stages of undress, and have one of the guys physically assault her for it? Yeah, not going to fly. (Well, the main character will, since that's the infamous result of the orbital punches Naru gives Keitaro, but you know what I mean.)

A female dragon who ogles men in uniform is likely, in my experience, to be portrayed as sly and with an eyebrow-wiggle smile that we're supposed to be amused by. A male doing the same is more likely to be portrayed as more animalistic about it, less clever, and more deserving of an eyeroll of disgust than a snort of bemusement.

A lot of this is subtle, and really does require changing the sexes and applying the SAME behaviors to see clearly.

Take the iconic "boys trying to spy on the girl's bath" and invert the genders. A LOT gets really...weird...really fast.


Personally I think changing the genders would have a backlash in Rosewood that has nothing to do with sexism.

Okay, the Rosewood setting is based on the Rance setting right? Well at the time of Rosewood's creation I did not know who the ruler of Helman was (Neither Rance 3, nor Rance 9 was translated. Hell Rance 9 isn't even out.), so I took a character from ANOTHER Alicesoft videogame, and re-purposed her to be Helman's leader.

http://s1.tsuki-board.net/pics/encyclopedia/28644.jpg?t=1312475089

Say hello to Retai Adolf.

...Yes the character is stolen from a World War 2 sci-fi parody game.

I question if making her male, since she's literally the alternate universes version of Hitler, would have made her get the same reaction she got from the group who played the Invasion of Helman campaign.
Hm. Maybe. But even that's a bit telling. Inverting "Hitler's" gender changed the reaction to her? That's actually rather fascinating.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-30, 09:26 AM
There's a very simple test for this.

Take any character. Would having a penis instead of boobs (or vice versa) be of any benefit to him whatsoever?

This may be an overly broad rule. Whether the differences are intrinsic or societal should matter. For example in the 3.5/PF campaign I'm running, the main empire has complicated inheritance rules that for noble titles favor males over females. Among other issues this allowed an interesting plot where the PCs were sent to find the eldest daughter of a noble. Someone was trying to stop her, and the most obvious candidate was her brother who was the next oldest siblind, but that didn't seem to make sense to the PCs since he would get the title anyways. It turned out (and the PCs basically didn't put it together until they had a few serious clue bricks) that most of the family wealth came before they were ennobled and so was inherited simply to the eldest child. The brother didn't want to inherit just a title with no money.

There are a lot of plots that one can involve societal attitudes about sex and gender. It isn't sexist to have a sexist setting. If however one has intrinsic mechanical restrictions on one gender (e.g. capping female strength scores or capping male wisdom) that's sexist.

On the other hand, it also isn't unreasonable to want to play in a world where these issues don't come up, just as much of what made historical societies suck don't come up in standard games, because they make the fun, fantastical element possibly ruined.

Morithias
2013-10-30, 12:36 PM
Well, part of it is... would the "playgirl" who likes boys in suits be treated the same way the playboy who likes girls in maid outfits is? How would that change things, if so?

Another egregious example: Love Hina. The male lead is the manager of what is effectively an apartment that functions like a girls' dorm. He actually isn't particularly lecherous - especially by anime standards - but convenient author-created accidents keep putting him in situations where he stumbles on various of his tenants in various stages of undress. One of these is physically violent in over-the-top cartoon fashion with him to punish each infraction, at least in part shown to be because she's embarrassed and angry at being seen. Once, she walked in on him while he was changing in his room, and was violent for him being "a pervert" by "exposing" himself to her.

This is all played for laughs. Invert the genders, and have a female manager of an all-male dorm-style apartment who keeps accidentally walking in on the guys in various stages of undress, and have one of the guys physically assault her for it? Yeah, not going to fly. (Well, the main character will, since that's the infamous result of the orbital punches Naru gives Keitaro, but you know what I mean.)

A female dragon who ogles men in uniform is likely, in my experience, to be portrayed as sly and with an eyebrow-wiggle smile that we're supposed to be amused by. A male doing the same is more likely to be portrayed as more animalistic about it, less clever, and more deserving of an eyeroll of disgust than a snort of bemusement.

A lot of this is subtle, and really does require changing the sexes and applying the SAME behaviors to see clearly.

Take the iconic "boys trying to spy on the girl's bath" and invert the genders. A LOT gets really...weird...really fast.


People seem to like Lee. Seeing how he's a diplomat, I usually play him as a Chivalrous Pervert. Sure he likes looking at girls, but he's never one to objectify them or abuse them.

The Maid Cafe workers love him due to his insane tips. Go in and order a cup of coffee for like 5 silver, and leave like 20 gold on the table.

"Less clever". Aren't dragons suppose to be super-intelligent? Plus again, he's a diplomat, having an animalistic person as a diplomat would be a very bad idea.

He's like what if Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne was a dragon. He's a playboy, not a rapist.

Segev
2013-10-30, 12:56 PM
Sounds cool to me.

I'm discussing stereotypes in general as much as anything else, but yeah, it sounds like he could invert without raising too many eyebrows.

The suggestion to do it to the whole setting is mainly as an exercise in seeing what does change and why. As in, what about how you THINK about things that are happening changes.

It's not really meant to point a finger anywhere. I, personally, don't think the tropes are bad one way or another so much as important to be aware of so you can use them most effectively (and subvert, avert, or otherwise toy with them more deliberately, when it will serve your story).

The Fury
2013-10-30, 02:00 PM
People seem to like Lee. Seeing how he's a diplomat, I usually play him as a Chivalrous Pervert. Sure he likes looking at girls, but he's never one to objectify them or abuse them.

The Maid Cafe workers love him due to his insane tips. Go in and order a cup of coffee for like 5 silver, and leave like 20 gold on the table.

"Less clever". Aren't dragons suppose to be super-intelligent? Plus again, he's a diplomat, having an animalistic person as a diplomat would be a very bad idea.

He's like what if Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne was a dragon.

Hey, nothing wrong with that. Lee seems like a gentleman.

Though I misinterpreted him earlier. When you said "He likes maid outfits," you meant he likes girls that wear maid outfits. I incorrectly assumed you meant he likes wearing maid outfits. So for that I guess I owe you an apology.

Morithias
2013-10-30, 02:14 PM
Hey, nothing wrong with that. Lee seems like a gentleman.

Though I misinterpreted him earlier. When you said "He likes maid outfits," you meant he likes girls that wear maid outfits. I incorrectly assumed you meant he likes wearing maid outfits. So for that I guess I owe you an apology.

My fault for not being clear I guess.

Although a crossdressing character....I'll have to put that aside for later...maybe a vampire...

The Fury
2013-10-30, 02:47 PM
My fault for not being clear I guess.

Although a crossdressing character....I'll have to put that aside for later...maybe a vampire...

No, in hindsight the context that you put it in made it clear. I was the only one that got it wrong after all. I can be pretty slow sometimes.

But hey, if you want to include cross-dressing characters I'd encourage it.

Morithias
2013-10-30, 05:17 PM
I was expecting more of a backlash in this thread...

The other "comment on my setting" is 9 pages long, and he set out to make a setting without sexism. Apparently he heavily failed, judging by that thread.

For now I'm going to take these two threads as evidence that we are HEAVILY overthinking the subject of sexism, in terms of how to write a setting.

The Fury
2013-10-30, 10:33 PM
I was expecting more of a backlash in this thread...

The other "comment on my setting" is 9 pages long, and he set out to make a setting without sexism. Apparently he heavily failed, judging by that thread.

For now I'm going to take these two threads as evidence that we are HEAVILY overthinking the subject of sexism, in terms of how to write a setting.

I wouldn't say he failed in making a non-sexist setting so much. I think that the other thread is so long because it digressed from Justice Zero's setting so much that it's no longer really being discussed, and is now about sexism in world-building in general.

Isamu Dyson
2013-10-30, 10:34 PM
And with good reason!

Chopping heads off and damning souls to the Nine Hells is aaaaa-okay, though...

Morithias
2013-10-30, 10:38 PM
Chopping heads off and damning souls to the Nine Hells is aaaaa-okay, though...

We can mostly blame that on this being a primarily western board, and western societies tend to approve of violence more than sex.

Which I always found kind of stupid, but that's just me speaking.

Sapphire Guard
2013-10-31, 07:29 AM
I was expecting more of a backlash in this thread...

The other "comment on my setting" is 9 pages long, and he set out to make a setting without sexism. Apparently he heavily failed, judging by that thread.

For now I'm going to take these two threads as evidence that we are HEAVILY overthinking the subject of sexism, in terms of how to write a setting.

Four of those pages are focused on a setting you introduced to that thread for comment. As for this one, it looks good to me so far, but we haven't gone into enough detail to be completely certain. The one true test would be to run a game and see what people think. From what you've said, though, it seems fine.

Segev
2013-10-31, 08:28 AM
I'm going to take these two threads as evidence that we are HEAVILY overthinking the subject of sexism, in terms of how to write a setting.I tend to agree. It's an interesting subject to analyze for literary purpose, but many prefer to crusade on the topic. I'm guilty of being the defender against such crusades, at times, so I can oft be "part of the problem," but I've yet to find a way to avoid that without allowing an echo chamber to build such that having a contrary opinion to the Crusaders' becomes a lynching offense (with the ironic justification that the heretic is somehow the one doing the lynching and thus deserves it).

We can mostly blame that on this being a primarily western board, and western societies tend to approve of violence more than sex.

Which I always found kind of stupid, but that's just me speaking.
This is actually a pretty deep question. If you like, I would be willing to discuss it, but it would likely derail this thread pretty hard, and it would involve analysis of culture, religion, and evaluation of objective morality (which is a fascinating subject to me; I've become convinced that it actually exists, but not in quite the way that most people assume it's meant when the phrase comes up.)

AstralFire
2013-10-31, 09:01 AM
The only thing which potentially concerns me is, given the source material, the sexualization/fetishization of the women involved. This is a significant and repeated failing in many Japanese settings that feature women in charge - they largely exist as fetish fuel and are sexualized objects. Which is okay, more or less, for porn - but troubling if it goes outside of it.

If you're not including that feature, I don't entirely understand why you based off of an eroge to begin with, but you should be fine.

PersonMan
2013-10-31, 09:37 AM
If you're not including that feature, I don't entirely understand why you based off of an eroge to begin with, but you should be fine.

Morithias basically just grabs characters from games she likes and plays, using them instead of making her own.

She likes and plays eroges, therefore that's where she takes her characters from (they're also, IIRC, obscure enough so her group doesn't recognize it).

She's mentioned this in the other thread(s) she talked about Rosewood about.

Segev
2013-10-31, 09:52 AM
The only thing which potentially concerns me is, given the source material, the sexualization/fetishization of the women involved. This is a significant and repeated failing in many Japanese settings that feature women in charge - they largely exist as fetish fuel and are sexualized objects.

It would be interesting to see how this might be achieved - making men-who-are-in-charge into fetish fuel and sexualized objects. Rather than simply decrying it when it's done to women, really examine the nature of it by doing it to men. See how the depictions thus done contrast with how men are "normally" portrayed when they're in charge. (I still contend this is most easily done by taking a setting guilty of the quoted behavior and inverting the genders.)

AstralFire
2013-10-31, 10:07 AM
It would be interesting to see how this might be achieved - making men-who-are-in-charge into fetish fuel and sexualized objects. Rather than simply decrying it when it's done to women, really examine the nature of it by doing it to men. See how the depictions thus done contrast with how men are "normally" portrayed when they're in charge. (I still contend this is most easily done by taking a setting guilty of the quoted behavior and inverting the genders.)

I think most "prettyboy yaoi" written by women tends to be guilty of the mirror fairly well, tbh. Again, doesn't bother me when it's obviously supposed to be porn - we all have itches to scratch - but when people remove only the most sexual elements and try to package it as a normal story.

Segev
2013-10-31, 10:12 AM
I dunno. Removing the yaoi aspect would unmuddy the waters on whether it's "gay sexualization" or just "sexualized men." Of course, trying to do that is probably harder than inverting the genders. Or maybe it isn't. I haven't really given it much thought.

Morithias
2013-10-31, 04:02 PM
Generally in my setting due to what it's based on, everyone is sexualized.

My general rule is "Your appearance score is 13 or your charisma, whatever is higher, unless you actively choose for it to be lower."

I assure you, the men are just as much fanservice as the girls..

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120623235555/princessmaker/images/4/44/CG_Date_with_Lee_(PM4).jpg

Here's a picture of Lee, along with the Demon King Patricia.

Of course HOW perverted a person is, changes from person to person. You're not likely going to get Kenshin talking about sex in-game, even though she is a beautiful woman.

Segev
2013-10-31, 05:13 PM
From that image, looks like the diplomat and the demon king get on quite well. Also, he doesn't seem to lack for an interested romantic partner (either that, or she's VERY forward with somebody she's not interested in). (Given the earlier description of his personality, I sincerely doubt he would NOT be interested.)

Morithias
2013-10-31, 05:45 PM
From that image, looks like the diplomat and the demon king get on quite well. Also, he doesn't seem to lack for an interested romantic partner (either that, or she's VERY forward with somebody she's not interested in). (Given the earlier description of his personality, I sincerely doubt he would NOT be interested.)

To be fair. Both characters are stolen and repurposed from the same game. Princess Maker 4.

That picture is from the "Date with Lee" scene.

Here's a picture of what she actually more looks like.

http://www.kkpmc.net/pm4/End/02queenofdarkness.jpg

Ifni
2013-10-31, 10:39 PM
I was expecting more of a backlash in this thread...

The other "comment on my setting" is 9 pages long, and he set out to make a setting without sexism. Apparently he heavily failed, judging by that thread.

For now I'm going to take these two threads as evidence that we are HEAVILY overthinking the subject of sexism, in terms of how to write a setting.

Most likely, he got a backlash because he designed a society with strict gender roles, just one where the gender roles were supposed to be fairer and more balanced than the traditional Western ones, in the interests of making a setting that satisfied his sense of verisimilitude. And then some people didn't find the setting strong on verisimilitude, and others were pushing for a society without such strict gender roles.

(Also, as others have said, a lot of the length of that thread is unrelated to the OP.)

In your case you're just saying "gender doesn't matter at all, except sometimes in the context of sexual attraction". Which if you stick to it in-game (and from the information you presented there's no evidence you're not), is pretty much the definition of one fairly unambiguous type of non-sexist setting.

Arguing that "gender doesn't matter" settings are non-sexist is easy. Arguing that "gender shapes the course of your entire life but neither gender is systematically disadvantaged by it" settings are non-sexist is quite a bit more complicated and subjective, even if such ~egalitarian societies may be more common in the real world than ones where gender is irrelevant.

The Fury
2013-11-01, 01:32 AM
Most likely, he got a backlash because he designed a society with strict gender roles, just one where the gender roles were supposed to be fairer and more balanced than the traditional Western ones, in the interests of making a setting that satisfied his sense of verisimilitude. And then some people didn't find the setting strong on verisimilitude, and others were pushing for a society without such strict gender roles.


To his credit I think his model did address something that comes up often in practice. In most RPGs and settings it's generally true that any character type can be male or female-- with that said, when a generic NPC is called for it's often male.
Another post on some other thread also pointed out that female mooks are rare. I admit, that it never really occurred to me but I can't think of the last time I fought female palace guards, female bandits or female soldiers.
At least in his proposed society with gender roles you'd at least see female mooks represented as guards, which I think is actually pretty cool.

Morithias
2013-11-01, 01:40 AM
To his credit I think his model did address something that comes up often in practice. In most RPGs and settings it's generally true that any character type can be male or female-- with that said, when a generic NPC is called for it's often male.
Another post on some other thread also pointed out that female mooks are rare. I admit, that it never really occurred to me but I can't think of the last time I fought female palace guards, female bandits or female soldiers.
At least in his proposed society with gender roles you'd at least see female mooks represented as guards, which I think is actually pretty cool.

Oh yeah. You'll almost see the opposite in this setting....

...mainly again due to the fact I see myself as female, and find it more comfortable to roleplay girls.

I wonder if the "Male NPC is generic" is possibly because most DMs are male...so they put themselves however minor into the character...

The Fury
2013-11-01, 01:59 AM
Oh yeah. You'll almost see the opposite in this setting....

...mainly again due to the fact I see myself as female, and find it more comfortable to roleplay girls.

I wonder if the "Male NPC is generic" is possibly because most DMs are male...so they put themselves however minor into the character...

Might be that. I'm not sure. I confess I don't know too many female DMs so I don't have a lot to compare it to.
I think it's also related to some writers' tendency to think of female characters as special in some way, therefore if a character needs to be un-special or unremarkable they're male.

Ifni
2013-11-01, 02:57 AM
To his credit I think his model did address something that comes up often in practice. In most RPGs and settings it's generally true that any character type can be male or female-- with that said, when a generic NPC is called for it's often male.
Another post on some other thread also pointed out that female mooks are rare. I admit, that it never really occurred to me but I can't think of the last time I fought female palace guards, female bandits or female soldiers.
At least in his proposed society with gender roles you'd at least see female mooks represented as guards, which I think is actually pretty cool.

Yup. I don't mind that model, to be clear, I'm generally in favor of settings that play around with gender roles. (I definitely wouldn't want every setting I played in to have gender roles like that, but as a one-off, or as an isolated culture within a more diverse setting? Sure.) I'm just saying that from an "is this problematic" standpoint, there's a lot more to argue about in a setting with restrictive gender roles that still give power to both genders (but only if you're willing to play your assigned role), than one where gender is just irrelevant.

Regarding the "female mooks" issue, I'm going to guess it's a combination - people are more comfortable playing characters of their own gender, but because male characters are treated as the default, guys can get away with making all their minor NPCs male without having it get called out as odd, or sometimes without even noticing what they're doing. I've actually seen male posters say "I only make characters female if there's a reason for them to be" - that is, characters only get gendered female if their storyline would not work if they were male. (This can, unfortunately, lead to very stereotypical female characters, because they only appear at all in explicitly gendered plots.)

This is totally anecdotal, I'm not aware of any data with a large sample size, but the female GMs I've seen tend to have more of a mix of genders among their NPCs, and I think it might be because people tend to comment if all the NPCs are female. That said, I haven't tried it myself - I've been trying to carefully gender-balance - so if Morithias has been running her unnamed NPCs exclusively female and nobody's mentioned it, this idea could well be wrong.

Morithias
2013-11-01, 03:17 AM
This is totally anecdotal, I'm not aware of any data with a large sample size, but the female GMs I've seen tend to have more of a mix of genders among their NPCs, and I think it might be because people tend to comment if all the NPCs are female. That said, I haven't tried it myself - I've been trying to carefully gender-balance - so if Morithias has been running her unnamed NPCs exclusively female and nobody's mentioned it, this idea could well be wrong.

Not exclusively female, but a lot of them yes.

The Named NPCs are more exclusively female, I think there's like 9 reoccurring characters who are male. Lee, Seigen, Baroa, Kentaro, and Xaiver, and the 4 Shimazu Brothers (Gigai doesn't count because he changes gender every time he is killed). Every other male character is usually made for the campaign alone...

On the flip side...in terms of reoccurring female characters?

Retia, Magic, Leila, 3 Mouri sisters, Yumazi, Hibachi, Yamato, Uesugi Kenshin, Noei Ai, Takeda Shingen, Sandra Tourin, Hojo Ran, Demon King Patricia, The Goddess of the Avatar, Elyse, Natori, Yukumi, Fuuka...that half-vampire girl who shows up every avatar game, Mana, Maria...

Lorsa
2013-11-01, 03:27 AM
Might be that. I'm not sure. I confess I don't know too many female DMs so I don't have a lot to compare it to.
I think it's also related to some writers' tendency to think of female characters as special in some way, therefore if a character needs to be un-special or unremarkable they're male.

Or maybe they're afraid that portraying women as un-special or unremarkable would be sexist or prejudist some way?

PersonMan
2013-11-01, 03:38 AM
I wonder if the "Male NPC is generic" is possibly because most DMs are male...so they put themselves however minor into the character...

For me, at least, it's because of my Self-Default. In other words, unless otherwise mentioned (or there's some other thing that makes me think they aren't), then everything that's described is a white guy of moderate height and on the skinny side.

Therefore, the standard NPC will be a tall, skinny white guy, because that's my 'generic'.

BWR
2013-11-01, 06:01 AM
Personally, random NPCs tend to be male, human (given that the place the PCs are is mainly human or has a lot of humans) and white. A lot of that is due to the sort of settings I run; currently old school Mystara. Just looking through the old supplements there are women in positions of power but men are still dominant numerically, and all the human cultures are white (possibly excluding the Egyptian -> Arab expies).
Still, if I don't think about it and no other elements are considered, a random NPC will tend to be white human male. I can only attribute it to the tendency to use oneself as the yardstick everything else is measured by.

Morithias
2013-11-01, 06:57 AM
Come to think of it, I don't even know if there are any black or middle-eastern people in Rosewood. I mean you never see those in anime either...the only one I can think of is Brock.

It's a lot easier to explain everyone being white in a world where evolution doesn't exist.

Segev
2013-11-01, 03:13 PM
I suspect it often amounts to playing to trope and stereotype. Generic!nurses are female, generic!housekeepers are female, generic!butlers are male, generic!guards are male, generic!merchants are male (though this one is one of the most often given a 50/50), generic!headCooks are female, generic!thieves are male, generic!tradesmen are male, generic!farmers are male.

Whether you think it sexist or not, certain roles and jobs are stereotyped to certain sexes, and people will default to them if they're not trying to draw attention to something, as a general rule.

"Draw attention to something" could be as simple as "I have a more defined character in mind than Faceless Narrative Prop #285," mind. It doesn't take MUCH to decide that this nurse is male or this pickpocket is female, but if you're not thinking about it at all and just drawing from your bag o' NPC props, it's very common for people to just run with the stereotype. It's easy and gets the feel and point across to those who are at least familiar with the tropes very quickly, with a minimum of description.

Ifni
2013-11-01, 04:52 PM
Yup. It does reinforce those stereotypes though, and yeah, I do think that is sexist (in the sense of "prejudice, stereotyping or discrimination based on gender"). Doesn't mean the person running those NPCs is misogynist/misandrist, but it is reinforcing gender-based stereotypes.

My guess is that it's more a matter of those cultural templates and male-as-a-default-gender than people just using self-inserts - again, this is anecdotal, but I've never seen a female GM run nothing but female NPCs unless she was doing it consciously to make a point (rare), and I've seen male GMs run nothing but male NPCs so often that when this isn't true I'll often give an approving comment.

Right at the moment I'm running my first game that wasn't a pre-written module (solo PbP game, for a friend) and I'm consciously trying to keep the genders half-and-half. At the moment the protagonist has been traveling for a few days through an isolated mountain region, so all the locals he's met have pretty similar ethnic backgrounds - vaguely South-East Asian in terms of real-world ethnicities, straight dark hair, dark eyes, light brown skin. Clothing isn't very gender-segregated because the main imperative is that it's warm but you can still move fairly freely. When he goes to other regions of the world, the majority ethnicities will be different - settings which make whiteness so much a default that no non-white people exist, without ever acknowledging what they're doing, kind of annoy me. (Although I suppose they're better than the settings with ten different complex and well-realized cultures, in which everyone is white, and then a sole Stereotypical Jungle Kingdom which has the brown people.)

The Fury
2013-11-01, 11:27 PM
If nothing else I think these discussions are making us more conscientious. Like Ifni's cases, this is anecdotal so make of it what you will. I personally don't think that DMs that use stereotypes like these really mean to.
I have never played with a DM that would not allow me to play as female town guard for example. When I play a female guard, it's rare for anyone to comment on her chosen profession which seems to imply that this sort of thing isn't uncommon, yet when I look at the other town guards they're usually all male.
Race, I'll admit is a little more difficult for me to get a handle on. If I made a character who is a person of color, I'd hardly expect anyone to notice or think she's strange-looking in a world where there's elves, half-orcs and dwarves running around. The most I've ever gotten is a handwave of "Your character's from a foreign land and people from your culture are rare." Could be worse I suppose.

Segev
2013-11-04, 10:57 AM
In my Darkling setting (same one as the orcs I've discussed at length, elsewhere), the human societies tended to be pretty egalitarian because they were very young as societies. Most had risen out of barbaric tribalism within the last generation. (This was, in fact, a point of major concern to the local elven population, who were used to the only civilized humans being those they "uplifted" as their servants. The "elf's burden" to train these short-lived savages in the ways of civilization was important to them. That there was an unsupervised concentration of humans forming their own civilization was...strange.)

It wasn't any particular statement; the humans simply didn't have normal pressures on their society and thus simply had "whatever you can do" as the only limit to what you were "allowed" to do. (Most disturbing to anybody who really thought about it was that their "government" amounted to highly respected individuals saying they should do things, and the society as a whole either agreeing or not. There wasn't any formal government; the city guards were self-organized, and people mostly just agreed to let them do their thing.)

So in that society, nobody would have commented on female city guards, or that Cassandra Renker was her brother's right-hand woman in the more militant of the two human cities.

In high elven society, women warriors were unusual. Wood elves had equal numbers women and men doing the warrior thing. It was, however, considered beneath high elven females, by and large.