defending against teleport

[Irk]

So, I know that this has been done a whole lot, but is there really a reliable way to defend an entire city?

The only real way is to use Genesis to create a plane with the limited magic trait (targeting teleportation spells) then get permanent emanation: planar bubble for a bunch of creatures and just put them all over the location.

[kabreras]

Thats possible, but you would need epic magic to create a mythal of some sort.

Good side is that you can add a lot of things to it :)
like allowing just certains persons to tp or such

[TuggyNE]

Even that defense fails against wish, which "ignores local conditions".

[kabreras]

True but you can tune the mythal to not not allow tp in but to TP out peoples that are not keyed to it...

And in case of, add some sort of dispeling before the TP tick in so no protection will help.

[Anthrowhale]

The meaning of 'defense' can be highly varied. Spells Teleport cage, Forbiddance, Anticipate Teleportation seems relevant, as does the item Wierdstone.

[Emperor Tippy]

There is no blocking Wish entrance (although you can block someone already inside from using Wish to exit).

The best strategic defenses are 1) be on a plane not coexistent to the astral plane as most methods of teleportation and planar travel make use of the Astral Plane, 2) be on a Limited (stopping Teleportation) or Dead Magic plane, 3) use a Weirdstone, 4) have epic spell casting.

If you want to cheap out you need a Spell to Power Erudite or Psion with Hallow/Unhallow as a powers known along with the feat Burrowing Power. They get to ignore the material component cost for an additional 2 PP per manifestation. Combine with Midnight Augmentation and Bestow Power for PP regen and a Psion can actually keep a decently sized city fairly consistently covered. Burrowing Power is to get through the pesky walls of buildings that would otherwise block line of effect. Incidentally this also shuts down most all enchantments in the city and prevents runaway undead spawning in the city.

That is cost prohibitive if you can't ignore the material component cost and time prohibitive if you are limited to the small number of daily castings.

You can also Planar Bind a Wastrilith (Fiendfolio, 15 HD) to do this for you as they have Unhallow as an At Will SLA.

The best defense is an Epic Spell with the ward seed set to block all teleportation as it can be made Instantaneous and can even (potentially) cover an entire planet while also not covering the selected entry points that you want to leave open.

---
The problem is that Wish can drop anyone, anywhere and once Wished in you can trigger a Craft Contingent Widened Solid Forcecage which then blocks line of effect to the interior and thus means that all of your buddies can just Greater Teleport inside.

---
Forbiddance has the problem that it's ill advised for most cities and it's SR: Yes (along with being expensive and Permanent so a single Disjunction or Iron Heart Surge can just bring it down).

Teleport Cage is better than most but its still a Permanent spell and thus a single Disjunction will rip the whole thing down without any issue. Worse than that though, all Teleport Cage's that touch one another link together into one single affect and thus one Disjunction can bring them all down. This can potentially be solved by access to the epic feat Tenacious Spell, which means Disjunction just knocks out the effect for 1d4 rounds. Again, however, Wish+Craft Contingent Disjunction+ readied action greater teleports and an entire army can still be brought in. All you really need is 2 bound Pit Fiends. Have one Wish the other through the teleport cage and then have the invader use it's wish to create an Auto-rest trap of Disjunction that goes off every round. The teleport cage is now down indefinitely.

And again, if all else fails there is Wish. Use Wish plus nested castings of Smokey Confinement with each of the Confined entities having a readied action to smash the Smokey Confinement vials in their hands once released. I once had a Sorcerer that held an entire army of Bound Pit Fiends (one hundred thousand of them actually) in a single vial and that could be deployed with a single standard action.

I also once made a Wizard who could produce a bottled Legion of Doom(tm) every day via Ice Assassin, Telepathic Bond, Permanency, Fabricate, and Smokey Confinement traps.

[Story]

How about a really high CL Anticipate Teleport?

There's also Black Labyrinth, but that would make life difficult in the city.

[Emperor Tippy]

How about a really high CL Anticipate Teleport?

Requires Line of Effect and it still only buys you a round (3 with the Greater version).

With one interpretation of Burrowing Power it could work but that requires an Epic Psion or an Illithid Savant (you need Cosmic Connection and Font of Power).

[Seclora]

Why prevent it? Why not just make the consequences so dire no one would dare try it?
Have somebody just make a trap or item of some sort that cast disintegrate on anyone who hadn't passed through the front gate, move all the midwives outside the wall, and then watch anyone who tried to teleport in, break through your walls, fly in, or sneak in through the sewers get zapped every round?

hand out passes at the gate, watch all your citizens get paranoid about their passes. kind of like Lawful Evil Heaven, but without all those annoying angelic incursions.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why prevent it? Why not just make the consequences so dire no one would dare try it?
Have somebody just make a trap or item of some sort that cast disintegrate on anyone who hadn't passed through the front gate, move all the midwives outside the wall, and then watch anyone who tried to teleport in, break through your walls, fly in, or sneak in through the sewers get zapped every round?

hand out passes at the gate, watch all your citizens get paranoid about their passes. kind of like Lawful Evil Heaven, but without all those annoying angelic incursions.

Just figure out how to do that under the rules of the game for something approaching a reasonable cost without Wish abuse and you are golden.

[Seclora]

Just figure out how to do that under the rules of the game for something approaching a reasonable cost without Wish abuse and you are golden.

92.400 gold market price per trap(half if you use slave labor/dominated labor), proximity trigger, automatic reset.
I'd put them in the lampposts.


That's trap making rules, no wishes whatsoever.

[jedipotter]

So, I know that this has been done a whole lot, but is there really a reliable way to defend an entire city?

I guess the question is, do you even need to?

If there is an army just around the corner ready to teleport in and attack...then just let them. Just have a good escape plan(and that is have everyone in the city teleport away). Then wait for the attacks to settle in your city or go back home....and then just teleport attack them.

And you get the wonderful MAD, MAD, MAD world: City A telports it's army over to attack city B. Then city C teleport attacks near defenseless city A. And then cities D, E, F...

[Snowbluff]

Anticipate Teleportation lets you enough time to place a Dimensional Lock on the place the person is arriving at. I wonder what happens to someone when that happens...

[Demonic_Spoon]

How about a really high CL Anticipate Teleport?

There's also Black Labyrinth, but that would make life difficult in the city.

Black Labyrinth? What is that and where's it from?

[ArqArturo]

F*** it, up the ante.

Heightened Cloister.

[Emperor Tippy]

Black Labyrinth? What is that and where's it from?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

9th level Mystery.

[Norin]

Black Labyrinth? What is that and where's it from?

I think its a shadowcaster mystery.
Tome of magic.

[Angelalex242]

Alternatively, if you're trying to make a city of Lawful Good, you could just set something up that Holy Word and Dictum (both at Caster Level 20) echo throughout the entire city every round. (It's like having a celestial Archon choir forever singing in the background.)

It won't prevent people from teleporting in or out, but if they're the wrong alignment...

(as a bonus, this lets the people you want in your city teleport in as normal.)

[ArqArturo]

Alternatively, if you're trying to make a city of Lawful Good, you could just set something up that Holy Word and Dictum (both at Caster Level 20) echo throughout the entire city every round. (It's like having a celestial Archon choir forever singing in the background.)

It won't prevent people from teleporting in or out, but if they're the wrong alignment...

(as a bonus, this lets the people you want in your city teleport in as normal.)

I once had a city capital of a kingdom that, its four gates, were guarded by two colossal stone golems per gate entrance. Of course, they were immobile until a 'time of great need' made them move.

How wrong I was to do that.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I think its a shadowcaster mystery.
Tome of magic.

It is not anywhere in the shadow magic section.

[Norin]

It is not anywhere in the shadow magic section.

Check the link tippy posted.
It was web based, my mistake.

[Psyren]

So, I know that this has been done a whole lot, but is there really a reliable way to defend an entire city?

Yes - homebrew and fiat are both perfectly reliable :smalltongue:



The best strategic defenses are 1) be on a plane not coexistent to the astral plane as most methods of teleportation and planar travel make use of the Astral Plane, 2) be on a Limited (stopping Teleportation) or Dead Magic plane, 3) use a Weirdstone, 4) have epic spell casting.

(1) is tricky, at least in the default cosmology: "The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes..." Even creating a custom demiplane generallly requires you to start there.

MotP has variant rules for removing it and the repercussions that might cause, but those rules are just that - a variant.

[Emperor Tippy]

(1) is tricky, at least in the default cosmology: "The Astral Plane is a conduit to all other planes..." Even creating a custom demiplane generallly requires you to start there.

MotP has variant rules for removing it and the repercussions that might cause, but those rules are just that - a variant.

I never said that it was easy or that the players had the capability to do it. That being said, there are some canon examples and existing planes. Usually created/ruled by powerful demons/devils/other outsiders.

It's honestly not my preferred approach. Even aside from Wish transport you can still travel through the plane of dreams, the plane of mirrors, the plane of shadows, regular old Gate, and a couple of other more obscure methods.

[ShurikVch]

Hey, what's happened with the old good permanencied Dimensional Lock?

[TuggyNE]

Alternatively, if you're trying to make a city of Lawful Good, you could just set something up that Holy Word and Dictum (both at Caster Level 20) echo throughout the entire city every round. (It's like having a celestial Archon choir forever singing in the background.)

It won't prevent people from teleporting in or out, but if they're the wrong alignment...

(as a bonus, this lets the people you want in your city teleport in as normal.)

Horizon Walker's Aligned Planar Terrain Mastery says this is not a perfect defense. (And, of course, it means you're not going to have much trade.)


Hey, what's happened with the old good permanencied Dimensional Lock?

The fact that it can't be permanencied.

[kabreras]

I still beleve that the mythal with a TP ou keyed on it would do the trick..

Not cheap but quite easy to setup and it do not care about wish as it check for the peoples that are in not the peoples that get in.

[ShurikVch]

How about replicate the Shroud from Explorer's Handbook?

[kabreras]

as Typy said, nothing can stop wish from entering (tho when you resolve to use wish to get somewhere thats not a basic game)

So the best is to take them after they get in the area and then port them elsewhere.

[Daftendirekt]

If there is faerzress in the city then teleporting in would be pretty unreliable. That's what the drow do.

[ShurikVch]

Set a guard post in the astral near your city.
Guard post is under the (un)hallow with Dimensional Anchor.
Anyone allowed can teleport just fine, but the rest ones will be stopped at the guardpost. Instant ambush!


as Typy said, nothing can stop wish from entering Dimensional Lock did

[Brookshw]

For additional fun put a mountain on the co-terminous location on the ethereal, teleports not the only option for invading (though the prebaked spells do a sufficient job protecting from most options).

[Psyren]

Dimensional Lock did

Dimensional Lock is a local condition by definition, since its area is not just limited to the plane you cast it on, but a specific area on that plane.

[ShurikVch]

Dimensional Lock is a local condition by definition, since its area is not just limited to the plane you cast it on, but a specific area on that plane.
Specific beats General.
Wish is general and Dimensional Lock is specific.
When Dimensional Lock is on, there are no extraplanar way in or out.

[Psyren]

Specific beats General.
Wish is general and Dimensional Lock is specific.
When Dimensional Lock is on, there are no extraplanar way in or out.

Other way around actually - DL is the general effect and Wish specifically overrides all general effects.

[Scow2]

Why do you need to defend an entire city against Teleport?

[ShurikVch]

Other way around actually - DL is the general effect and Wish specifically overrides all general effects.
Come on, term "Local conditions" is as vague as possible! Seriosly, how in the Nine Hells can you call it "specific"? :smallconfused:
Let's be reasonable: Wishes granted by gods; gods can't come somewhere if it under the DL; so Wishes, being granted by gods, also unable to bring someone in/out of the area under the DL.

[TuggyNE]

Let's be reasonable: Wishes granted by gods; gods can't come somewhere if it under the DL; so Wishes, being granted by gods, also unable to bring someone in/out of the area under the DL.

Wishes are not granted by gods; you're thinking of miracles.

[Captnq]

There's no "clean" way to handle this.

So, make a magic item.

I had one player work out something for his estate, I'm sure you could scale it up quite easily.

He got himself a herd of phase spiders. He wanted to keep them inside an ethereal "farm", but the problem was, "How do you build Walls?" Well he made do with Dimensional Lock crap, but eventually settled on the idea of making it out of phase spider silk and just wondrous iteming up something to keep them in place.

Well, time came to cover an area the size of a small castle and he wanted to do better then a simple dimensional lock or Widened forbiddance cubes. So he made a large "net" of phase spider silk. It can be unfolded over an area and it wiggled "inbetween" the astral/shadow/ethereal planes and the prime material. But he wasn't happy with that. No no no. He wanted it to shunt everyone into a Maze Spell.

So, the trick was, the spider "web" wasn't anywhere, so you couldn't target it. When you did come into target with it, you got shunted to the maze, so you still couldn't target the "web". Oh, you could get out, but it just dropped you where you entered. But, if you knew the password, as a free action, you could move on through to your destination, no problem.

It did have Some flaws. A central point where you could "pick up" the web. At the center of it, you could attack the web and take it down. It also had a flat size. No custom radius. It's deployed, or it's not. And deployment and retractment took time. 24 hours, to be exact.

In the end I let it go for about 180,000 gp when we finished the negotiations. But I think I was harsh. Still, originally I wanted it to cost I think... 462,000 gp? Something like that. But Since he was harvesting phase spider silk, which would be gps towards creation cost, I most likely really raked him over the coals.

A city?
Make it a massive immoveable object that takes 24 hours to start up, but only 1 minute to shut down.
Have them have to collect an obscene amount of phase spider silk, maybe... I dunno. 1 week of silk from 300 spiders, or 300 weeks of silk from one spider?

Then the spell itself shouldn't be that expensive. It's only an 8th level spell. Have it cover... 5 miles? What's one hex?

Crafting time, 300 days, cost: 200,000 with reductions, 8000 xp.

It's mostly a MagGuffin Plot Device anyways, at this point.



Cost: He had buku reductions on making Wondrous items,

[ShurikVch]

Wishes are not granted by gods; you're thinking of miracles.
Miracle is just a divine Wish.
Except Miracle asks the whatever being it's caster worship.
And Wish answered by random deities, genies, pit fiends and so on...

[lsfreak]

Miracle is just a divine Wish.
Except Miracle asks the whatever being it's caster worship.
And Wish answered by random deities, genies, pit fiends and so on...

No, a wish isn't answered by anything. It's the caster's raw ability to manipulate reality that does it.

[Karnith]

Miracle is just a divine Wish.
Except Miracle asks the whatever being it's caster worship.
And Wish answered by random deities, genies, pit fiends and so on...
So, what's the source on that? No, previous editions don't count.

[Eldariel]

Miracle is just a divine Wish.
Except Miracle asks the whatever being it's caster worship.
And Wish answered by random deities, genies, pit fiends and so on...

You're thinking of AD&D and OD&D, where Wishes were effectively granted by the nearest outsider capable of doing so (making them, in effect, 3e Miracle except aimed at powerful outsiders rather than a specific deity; of course the old version was much more interesting). 3e Wish is basically a Wizard's own ultimate power for which he needs nothing but a paltry sacrifice of life essence and 9th level spells (which, granted, is actually quite a bit).

[Threadnaught]

Alternatively, if you're trying to make a city of Lawful Good, you could just set something up that Holy Word and Dictum (both at Caster Level 20) echo throughout the entire city every round. (It's like having a celestial Archon choir forever singing in the background.)

It won't prevent people from teleporting in or out, but if they're the wrong alignment...

(as a bonus, this lets the people you want in your city teleport in as normal.)

Except, that the only people who would be willing to facilitate such a mass slaughter of innocent commoners who happen to believe certain things, are Lawful Evil, or is it Chaotic Evil?

[Khatoblepas]

Except, that the only people who would be willing to facilitate such a mass slaughter of innocent commoners who happen to believe certain things, are Lawful Evil, or is it Chaotic Evil?

That's why you have very good border controls. Paladins with Detect Evil manning the gates, detecting people and then waving them on if they have the relevant paperwork.

Then you have people with Rings of Undetectable Alignment and other buff spells that mask the true alignment, and you strip them to find out what items they have, so you can confiscate them. This is all for their own good. And if they have earplugs, you can detain them and detect their evil. "Have you had your alignment visa renewed recently?" "What about your Patron Deities?" "Do you possess the evil subtype?" "Please face the Oracle with True Seeing."

Basically, Papers Please, except Good.

And as for stopping people from entering the city, why not several highly trained guards who get regular Anticipate Teleport buffs up, and hold Wands of Blockade? One round is all you need when Blockade is a swift action, and you target the square they're going to be in. Are there any rules for Wish-teleporting into a solid block of wood?

[Snowbluff]

Wish teleporting? It gets around the Lock, but I don't think it has shunting rules. Ouch. :smalleek:

[Threadnaught]

That's why you have very good border controls. Paladins with Detect Evil manning the gates, detecting people and then waving them on if they have the relevant paperwork.

Then you have people with Rings of Undetectable Alignment and other buff spells that mask the true alignment, and you strip them to find out what items they have, so you can confiscate them. This is all for their own good. And if they have earplugs, you can detain them and detect their evil. "Have you had your alignment visa renewed recently?" "What about your Patron Deities?" "Do you possess the evil subtype?" "Please face the Oracle with True Seeing."

Basically, Papers Please, except Good.

And as for stopping people from entering the city, why not several highly trained guards who get regular Anticipate Teleport buffs up, and hold Wands of Blockade? One round is all you need when Blockade is a swift action, and you target the square they're going to be in. Are there any rules for Wish-teleporting into a solid block of wood?

Okay, that'd actually work.

[Sith_Happens]

He got himself a herd of phase spiders. He wanted to keep them inside an ethereal "farm", but the problem was, "How do you build Walls?"

Use Walls of Force, or Plane Shift to the Ethereal and build the walls there. I suppose that's not as fun as writing up a DIY Weirdstone+Maze Trap, though.

[Incorrect]

For something cool, though not Wish proof either, I have several times used Anchor Mist from Dungeonscape. Its Dimensional Anchor with some extra damage, and a nice purple smoke effect.

[Milo v3]

If wish is on the table as a counter to making something teleport proof, why not use it to make the city teleport proof?

[Firest Kathon]

Pathfinder has the Teleport Trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport-trap) spell. All beings teleporting into the warded area are redirected to a specified destination (say, a holding cell). You can connect multiple castings of this spell, and then make it all permanent with a single (albeit expensive) casting of Permanency.

[Lanaya]

That's why you have very good border controls. Paladins with Detect Evil manning the gates, detecting people and then waving them on if they have the relevant paperwork.

Even better is if you can somehow get your hands on a few blackguards. Detecting good rather than evil lets you keep neutral people or anyone with undetectable alignment out. Dominating the blackguards would do the trick.

[TuggyNE]

If wish is on the table as a counter to making something teleport proof, why not use it to make the city teleport proof?

You can certainly try that, but there's nothing on the safe list that would do the job, whereas transporting past any and all barriers definitely is on the safe list.