Dragon Disciple... what insanity is this...

[visigani]

Based exclusively on its class features... the hell is the purpose of the Dragon Disciple in a party?

[Aasimar]

Essentially the same as a sorcerer, with a bit more physical power and slightly less magical power.

It can also be used to make a bit more meaty gish-type, depending on what you want to emphasize.

But mostly, it's an option for people who want to make their sorcerers more draconic.

[Big Fau]

Essentially the same as a sorcerer, with a bit more physical power and slightly less magical power.

It can also be used to make a bit more meaty gish-type, depending on what you want to emphasize.

But mostly, it's an option for people who want to make their sorcerers more draconic.

For the PF version, perhaps. For the 3.5 version it is absolutely worthless to a caster and not much use to a melee (due to prereqs and the limited benefits).

[ArcturusV]

It's sole purpose seems to be being a Trap. There's really no good character/build I've ever seen for it. Ever. Perhaps there is one out there... somewhere. But I thin most people rather just eat some LA to become Dragonborn, or a Half-Dragon, etc, to get the benefits, rather than take 10 levels to be a really crappy, once a day breath weaponing, minor stat buffs character.

It's one of those things like Shining Blade... I can't think of anything where levels in Dragon Disciple isn't better spent on any other class at all.

Course there's probably someone who has some really broken build with it out there, lurking the Interwebs.

[CyberThread]

remember when you first started d&d and you wanted to rp, and did not care or even know about how powerful things had to be?


That is who dragon disp, is for, those that remember the good ole days before you ever walked into a forum.

[ArcturusV]

Fair enough in that aspect. But think... what do you get out of being a DD that you wouldn't get out of being a Half Dragon? Nothing really. That's why you can't be a Half Dragon when you enter it. And plenty of RPers will find the half dragon template, never had a problem with that.

And then you save, well, a lot of levels.

[zlefin]

It's not THAT utterly terrible, just mostly utterly terrible.
But compared to things like core fighter 20, it's not that bad.
You also can't always start with the half-dragon template.

[ArcturusV]

Well yeah, but it's a PrC so by the time you could take it, you could have taken the template.

And I wouldn't say it's better than Fighter 20, even in Core. At least the Fighter 20 is likely to have 2-3 combat tricks he can pull off whenever he wants. Compared to something like Breath Weaponing once a day as your big payoff.

[zlefin]

You've obviously not looked closely.
It's an inherited template; which means it can't be just randomly added during gameplay or bought normally.
So if you start play at 1, then level up, you CANT pick up the half-dragon template. But you can pick up Dragon Disciple.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, I know. But what's happened in my games? "Okay... we're level X... so and so retires and I return with New Guy the Shiny!".

Which is still a much better way to do it. And perfectly fine. I'm not hte guy who DMs every game at a minimal level 5/8/10 or something. So I've had plenty of people do that.

Though on the higher Optimization sort of things all sorts of shenanigans could get around it, usual mind swapping sorts.

[Thanatosia]

I'm honestly supprised at all these Trap comments or bad PRC opinions.

Dragon Disciple always struck me as one of the best melee oriented builds. It does require lowering your BAB by 4 (1 for a splash of a spontanious caster and 3 lost through the DD progression), but this is more then made up for with the +8 Strength (and you can still reach max iterative attacks). Add to that 4 natural armor, +2 Int/con/Cha, Blindfighting, Wings, an energy immunity, 60ft darkvision, Sleep & Paralysis Immunity, and a Breath Weapon and it's pretty damn rock solid. Oh, and you get a small splash of arcane spontanious casting. I mean, it's never gonna be T1 or 2 like a true spellcaster, but as far as melee go, it's among the best I'm familiar with.

I'd take a melee DD over a strait up Fighter, Barb, Paladin, Ranger, or Monk any day of the week. I guess maybe if you're abusing the hell out of Polymorph and doing all your fighting in Hydra or other broken forms, thus negating the STR bonus and making pure BAB king, then maybe DD would be a bad call under those conditions.

[Story]

I mean, it's never gonna be T1 or 2 like a true spellcaster, but as far as melee go, it's among the best I'm familiar with.

I take it you're not familiar with Warshaper.

[Thanatosia]

I take it you're not familiar with Warshaper.
OK, you can beat it with Polymorph crap. Besides, I'm not saying its unbeatable, i'm just saying it is IMO, better then most standard melee builds, and thus hardly a 'trap'. Just because there are more optimal builds doesn't make a build bad.

[Fable Wright]

I take it you're not familiar with Warshaper.

Or sticking to core, minus abusive Druid stuff. Outside of core, melee has a plethora of better options (Totemist, Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader, debatably Duskblade off the top of my head) but in core, I could see it being as good, and maybe better, than a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk.

[Story]

OK, you can beat it with Polymorph crap. Besides, I'm not saying its unbeatable, i'm just saying it is IMO, better then most standard melee builds, and thus hardly a 'trap'. Just because there are more optimal builds doesn't make a build bad.

It doesn't really have much to do with Polymorph. The most natural entry is an ordinary Changeling.

[Telok]

I once had a player whose character was a TWF/oversized TWF bastard sword fighter. She wanted a familiar and was not interested in more fighter bonus feats. She was also fairly new so alternate systems like warblade or duskblade were inadvisable (we were still working on 5' step and full attack vs. move and attack, it was actually an issue). A quick dip of sorcerer and going into DD fufilled her wants perfectly and didn't have too much new stuff to confuse her.

She once dipped a pair of magic slippers into lava because they were red so maybe they resisted fire. This is the level of player whose character is definitely improved by Dragon Disciple.

[Juntao112]

She once dipped a pair of magic slippers into lava because they were red so maybe they resisted fire. This is the level of player whose character is definitely improved by Dragon Disciple.

Very foolish; everyone knows that red slippers take you back home.

[Flickerdart]

Dragon Disciple is okay in a core game when there's nothing else to take. As soon as the designers figured out what a prestige class should actually achieve, classes like it disappeared and we got actually interesting things instead.

[Gnome Alone]

Dragon Disciple is okay in a core game when there's nothing else to take. As soon as the designers figured out what a prestige class should actually achieve, classes like it disappeared and we got actually interesting things instead.

Gah, the truth, it blinds me.

[Psyren]

Even in a core (3.5) game, you can be Pal/Sorc/EK and wreck the DD.


@ visigani: I think you should convert to PF or at least play 3.P. It's not perfect but a lot of the stuff you've been complaining about is vastly improved over there.

[IronFist]

It does require lowering your BAB by 4 (1 for a splash of a spontanious caster and 3 lost through the DD progression), but this is more then made up for with the +8 Strength (and you can still reach max iterative attacks).
Actually, you can use Duskblade or Hexblade for entry, keeping full bab before going into Dragon Disciple.


@ visigani: I think you should convert to PF or at least play 3.P. It's not perfect but a lot of the stuff you've been complaining about is vastly improved over there.
As usual, Psyren is right.


Dragon Disciple is okay in a core game when there's nothing else to take. As soon as the designers figured out what a prestige class should actually achieve, classes like it disappeared and we got actually interesting things instead.
Dragon Disciple is a pretty good class in Neverwinter Nights for exactly those reasons. And the high level cap.

[bot]

remember when you first started d&d and you wanted to rp, and did not care or even know about how powerful things had to be?


That is who dragon disp, is for, those that remember the good ole days before you ever walked into a forum.

Epic comment

[ShurikVch]

By the way, DD gives a seven bonus spells of any available level.
The trick is to take it after getting the final level.
7 extra 9th lvl spells/day? Yes, please!

Mystic from Dr#274 probably can do it better, but it's from Dragon...

Still doesn't matter in the most games...

[PaucaTerrorem]

What class gives 9th lvl spells by 11th lvl?

[Psyren]

As usual, Psyren is right.

D'awww. :smallredface:



7 extra 9th lvl spells/day? Yes, please!


Well yeah, but you're in epic at that point - balance took a flying leap long ago :smalltongue:

Unless you mean pre-epic somehow, which would require obscene amounts of cheese.

[IronFist]

Unless you mean pre-epic somehow, which would require obscene amounts of cheese.
Going light on cheese, Duskblade 4/Ur-priest 6 (with Favored feat) entry gets 6th level spells. With enough boostrapping, you can do Duskblade 1/Ur-Priest 9/Dragon Disciple 10.

[Dr. Cliché]

remember when you first started d&d and you wanted to rp, and did not care or even know about how powerful things had to be?

That is who dragon disp, is for, those that remember the good ole days before you ever walked into a forum.

lol. Sad, but true.


Dragon Disciple is a pretty good class in Neverwinter Nights for exactly those reasons. And the high level cap.

I believe my first completion of NVNs was with a Sorcerer/DD.


Know what the DD class reminds me of? Isn't there a book (might be SS, I can't recall), that turns monsters into classes, based on their level adjustment? So, if you want to play a monster with +4LA from Lv1, you can treat it like a class and get more of its abilities as you level up. It makes me think of that. Except that it's spread out over 10 levels...

I have to admit though, until I saw this thread and looked at the DD class again, I'd been misremembering it. I could have sworn that about half the levels were +1 spellcasting level of existing spellcaster class - not just an measly extra spell.

I guess as a more veteran player, I'm now able to look at DD more objectively (as opposed to OMG - Dragon Class! Woot!) and, I just struggle to see the point. I guess it shores up your hp and bad saves, but at the cost of your key ability (spellcasting). Seems like you might as well just be an Eldritch Knight.

About the only class I can think of that might want to be a DD is a Hexblade - since they're already fighters and aren't losing out as much by not gaining further spellcaster levels.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, DD theoretically can be taken by purely mundane class via feat (Magical Training) or racial spellcasting

[Spore]

Well, I think my DD is my most beloved character so far. Why?

He is like the bard kit the sorcerer never had. He can still breath fire, if silenced. He can melee if elemental attacks suck ass. He survives a melee ambush (unlike other mid-level wizards/sorcerers), he is flexibility, he is dragon.

Also the flavor is awesome for a reasonable game where the PCs aren't tossing around wish after wish, fighting standard creatures 10 levels above their usual CR rating. They have most things and are versatile, but they lack a niche. Why do you need a niche? We're not playing a god damn MMO, where one has to play tank spec, and a damage dealer is worthless, if he ignores 1% of damage potenttial.

Also note that I play Pathfinder, where this is probably a better comparative choice.

[Yawgmoth]

remember when you first started d&d and you wanted to rp, and did not care or even know about how powerful things had to be?


That is who dragon disp, is for, those that remember the good ole days before you ever walked into a forum. So it's for people who think that character capability and "roleplaying" are mutually exclusive things and are interminably smug about it? Yeah, sounds about right.

You lose TEN spellcasting levels to get something you could normally achieve with a +3 LA template (and that LA is massively inflated). Alternatively, you throw away eleven levels of class features to gain some stat boosts and minor abilities that are quickly overshadowed or easily gained with feats or items. That's not "roleplaying what you want" so much as just being really bad at the game.

If you want to play a half-dragon, play one. Start with the template, go on a quest to acquire it, buy a bunch of grafts and take some feats, whatever. But DD as written should be the last option on your list.

[IronFist]

So it's for people who think that character capability and "roleplaying" are mutually exclusive things and are interminably smug about it? Yeah, sounds about right.
Hello, mister strawman. You doing okay?


You lose TEN spellcasting levels to get something you could normally achieve with a +3 LA template (and that LA is massively inflated). Alternatively, you throw away eleven levels of class features to gain some stat boosts and minor abilities that are quickly overshadowed or easily gained with feats or items. That's not "roleplaying what you want" so much as just being really bad at the game.
So you can be bad at a roleplaying game now?! Wow, that's just amazing. Anyone who does not get the most powerful option is "doing it wrong"? I'm glad the Fun Police showed up, all those people have been having fun in the wrong way for so long it's not even funny!


If you want to play a half-dragon, play one. Start with the template, go on a quest to acquire it, buy a bunch of grafts and take some feats, whatever. But DD as written should be the last option on your list.
Maybe, just maybe you want to play a character that slowly draws upon his draconic heritage. You know, like the Dragon Disciple does.

[Brookshw]

Very foolish; everyone knows that red slippers take you back home.

Or silver slippers if you've read the book:smalltongue:. The symbolism of the banking crisis really got lost over time.

DD is fun for fluff, nothing wrong with it, just nothing great.

[Jormengand]

Barbarian 6 bard 1 DD 10 LA 3 (the capstone gives you the template, even though it's normally inherited). Power attack for full. If you can alter the build to get psionic lion's charge in there, better still.

Or... you could play it for fluff purposes?

[ShurikVch]

Barbarian 6 bard 1 DD 10 LA 3 (the capstone gives you the template, even though it's normally inherited). Power attack for full. If you can alter the build to get psionic lion's charge in there, better still.
Template is class feature. It's LA-free. Otherwise the whole class became near pointless.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also note that I play Pathfinder, where this is probably a better comparative choice.
The Pathfinder version grants 7/10 spellcasting. The 3.5 version grants 7 bonus spells. The Pathfinder version is also easier for warriors to qualify for, thanks to the new skill rules.

Dragon Disciple isn't absolute garbage, but the obvious entry (Sorcerer 5) is a trap. As has previously been noted, it offers melee classes some pretty nice things for a core-only game. Something like Barbarian 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian +5 would be a pretty solid core-only melee build.

[Urpriest]

Based exclusively on its class features... the hell is the purpose of the Dragon Disciple in a party?

Visigani, you've been around the forums long enough to see Dragon Disciple discussed many times. What new insight were you intending to get out of this thread?

[Zanos]

So you can be bad at a roleplaying game now?! Wow, that's just amazing. Anyone who does not get the most powerful option is "doing it wrong"? I'm glad the Fun Police showed up, all those people have been having fun in the wrong way for so long it's not even funny!
While I certainly don't suggest always taking the most powerful option at every juncture, choosing a build that you know will limit how your character can meaningfully contribute in combat when a campaign is combat heavy is a disservice to yourself and the group you play with.

That said, I don't think Dragon Disciple is actually a bad melee class. If you try to play it as a caster, though, you should rethink what you're doing.

[IronFist]

While I certainly don't suggest always taking the most powerful option at every juncture, choosing a build that you know will limit how your character can meaningfully contribute in combat when a campaign is combat heavy is a disservice to yourself and the group you play with.
Absolutely.
That is still not "being bad" at D&D, though. At most it is "being bad at the character creation minigame".

[Jormengand]

Template is class feature. It's LA-free. Otherwise the whole class became near pointless.

Nope. Tell me where it says "You do not gain level adjustment from the template"? All it says is "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template." You still get LA, but the only reason it's a class feature is that in 3.5 it's an inherited but not an acquired template, so it's the only way of getting it after birth. Also, +16 STR is kinda nifty, amirite?

[Mr Adventurer]

I quite liked the character I came up with who at level 10 had a Strength of 40 when raging. Didn't use any shenanigans either.

Orc, Duskblade 1/Orc Paragon 3/Barbarian 1/Dragon Disciple 5.

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Orok_Fang-tearer

[ShurikVch]

Nope. Tell me where it says "You do not gain level adjustment from the template"? All it says is "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template." You still get LA, but the only reason it's a class feature is that in 3.5 it's an inherited but not an acquired template, so it's the only way of getting it after birth. Also, +16 STR is kinda nifty, amirite?


D&D® Frequently Asked Questions
Version 3.5: Date Updated 6/30/08

One of my players plays a half-celestial sorcerer, and he
wants to take the dragon disciple prestige class. What
happens to his character’s creature type when he reaches
the 10th level of dragon disciple? Is he still an outsider
(from his template), is he a dragon, is he both, or is he
something else? Should he gain a level adjustment from
becoming a half-dragon?
...
A dragon disciple ignores the normal level adjustment
applied from the half-dragon template; in effect, he’s already
“paid” for the template through the 10 levels of his prestige
class. This is true of any prestige class that applies a template
or otherwise changes the character’s type or subtype.
LA +3 already "spread out" by 10 levels of DD. No need to double-punish your player for taking suboptimal PrC.

[Jormengand]

LA +3 already "spread out" by 10 levels of DD. No need to double-punish your player for taking suboptimal PrC.

Oh, nice. PsW 9 Bard 1 DD 10, power attack for full, psionic lion's charge for full. I'm sorry, did someone call for an airborne ubercharger?

(Hint: This guy's doing about 500-600 damage in one round if he's not very well built. Fear the ubercharger.)

[The Dark Fiddler]

There's really no good character/build I've ever seen for it. Ever. Perhaps there is one out there... somewhere.

[...]

Course there's probably someone who has some really broken build with it out there, lurking the Interwebs.

Well, there is the Iron Chef contest that featured DD as an ingredient. OP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072) and entries (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072&page=5).

There's bound to be something good there. There always is and I'm not just saying that because I won the Acolyte of the Skin contest.

[IronFist]

Oh, nice. PsW 9 Bard 1 DD 10, power attack for full, psionic lion's charge for full. I'm sorry, did someone call for an airborne ubercharger?

(Hint: This guy's doing about 500-600 damage in one round if he's not very well built. Fear the ubercharger.)

Beware the dragonman! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheSuperman)

[Benthesquid]

In Pathfinder, a Sorcerer 5, Dragon Disciple ~3 makes a good in-close evocationist miniboss, good for a quick and dirty fight against a level six party.

So, there's that?

[Jormengand]

Beware the dragonman! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheSuperman)

It gets worse if you make some interpretations of the rules which seem to make some level of sense - a dive works "Just like a charge" - does that mean you can have a psionic, er, dragon's dive? With potentially seven attacks? With about 40 strength? With double damage from diving?

That means, for the record, that you're doing 2(7d4+7*(STR+Psipoints+other modifiers)) damage, which comes to about 1200 damage if you stack everything onto it.

[Eldariel]

So you can be bad at a roleplaying game now?! Wow, that's just amazing. Anyone who does not get the most powerful option is "doing it wrong"? I'm glad the Fun Police showed up, all those people have been having fun in the wrong way for so long it's not even funny!

I dunno, it wasn't that much fun being a level 15 Arcane Archer with 1 level of Wizard in a level 15 party (my first 3.X campaign). I don't see why Dragon Disciple would feel any different; you're supposed to be magical but yet you can't use magic worth a **** 'cause the game sees fit to not advance your spellcasting while requiring it to enter the class. We need to go somewhere? Need Wizard to teleport or Cleric to plane shift. We need to fight? We need casters to buff us up and then probably wipe the floor with the encounter anyways with or without us doing anything.

I remember that one Ragewalker guardian in a dungeon holding McGuffin, for instance; immune to arrows, pushes everybody who fails DC 28 Will-save to Blood Frenzy where they beat up their allies - died to Destruction after Disintegrate was eaten by Spell Resistance 'cause spells still work at range just fine.

It was not an isolate case of course; Purple Worm, Dragon, Death Giant, the couple of Frost Giants before, the Goblin Party, etc. - all the things we dealt with were simply easier to deal with magic even though we had first timer casters in our party whose spell selection was just far from optimal (never cast Polymorph for instance). And I thought I was playing a half-caster of sorts! Only things I ever got to cast were Greases with Imbue Arrow.


Having 3/4th of the stuff the party does done by few characters simply out of design isn't very fun, at least not in my experience. I have yet to hear from someone who has actually played 3.5 on those levels with hugely imbalanced party and enjoyed it. And I've heard a lot of tales.

And I've played and heard of many enjoyable games from those levels when the party was on broadly the same level of power. Funny how that works out.

[Jormengand]

And I've played and heard of many enjoyable games from those levels when the party was on broadly the same level of power. Funny how that works out.

Well, obviously you should be playing at the same tier as the rest of our party. A fighter 15 is probably going to have his backside handed to him by a wizard 15, but that doesn't mean the fighter is a bad class. You may as well ask "Well, why would I play a sorcerer! I could be a WIZARD!"

[Sith_Happens]

If it makes anyone feel slightly better, the DMG fluff-bits on Dragon Disciple do say that it's more for a Fighter or Barbarian dipping Sorcerer to qualify than for a full Sorcerer. So the designers weren't trying to make a caster PrC when they wrote it.

...And then you realize that that implies they thought the Dragon Disciple was worth possibly taking a 20% XP penalty forever to qualify for.:smallsigh:

[Flickerdart]

Well, obviously you should be playing at the same tier as the rest of our party. A fighter 15 is probably going to have his backside handed to him by a wizard 15, but that doesn't mean the fighter is a bad class. You may as well ask "Well, why would I play a sorcerer! I could be a WIZARD!"

A fighter also gets his backside handed to him by CR-appropriate challenges that can't be solved by charge + sword. A party of T4s with no overlapping specialities gets to basically play the game one at a time; a party of T4s with overlapping specialities drastically reduces the possible variety of encounters the DM can dish out.

[Jormengand]

A fighter also gets his backside handed to him by CR-appropriate challenges that can't be solved by charge + sword. A party of T4s with no overlapping specialities gets to basically play the game one at a time; a party of T4s with overlapping specialities drastically reduces the possible variety of encounters the DM can dish out.

A single encounter can easily require (or at least, be better dealt with by the use of) stealth, uberchargery, skillmonkeying, tanking and low-level spellcasting at the same time with a bit of DM imagination.

[Flickerdart]

A single encounter can easily require (or at least, be better dealt with by the use of) stealth, uberchargery, skillmonkeying, tanking and low-level spellcasting at the same time with a bit of DM imagination.
A single encounter? Sure. But someone DMing for a party like that would have to provide a convoluted solution like that for every single problem the PCs face, which is a hideous amount of effort for basically no reason.

[Jormengand]

A single encounter? Sure. But someone DMing for a party like that would have to provide a convoluted solution like that for every single problem the PCs face, which is a hideous amount of effort for basically no reason.

Even "You see bandits. Kill them. There are traps on the ground," can provide a use for stealth, ubercharging, tanking, skilling and low-level spells without much effort.

[Eldariel]

Well, obviously you should be playing at the same tier as the rest of our party. A fighter 15 is probably going to have his backside handed to him by a wizard 15, but that doesn't mean the fighter is a bad class. You may as well ask "Well, why would I play a sorcerer! I could be a WIZARD!"

Yeah, well, see, in the old innocent days I didn't know that. As a consequence I wasn't exactly enjoying myself. I'm pretty sure the guy who went "I want to become a half-dragon" and went Dragon Disciple with no regards to class power had similar experiences.

Also, Fighter is a bad class regardless of how it compares to other classes (if the game is built for 20 levels, it's not okay for a class to gain its last unique class features on level 12), but I suppose that's neither here nor now.

[IronFist]

It gets worse if you make some interpretations of the rules which seem to make some level of sense - a dive works "Just like a charge" - does that mean you can have a psionic, er, dragon's dive? With potentially seven attacks? With about 40 strength? With double damage from diving?

That means, for the record, that you're doing 2(7d4+7*(STR+Psipoints+other modifiers)) damage, which comes to about 1200 damage if you stack everything onto it.

This is not even counting Headlong Rush, right?


I dunno, it wasn't that much fun being a level 15 Arcane Archer with 1 level of Wizard in a level 15 party (my first 3.X campaign). I don't see why Dragon Disciple would feel any different; you're supposed to be magical but yet you can't use magic worth a **** 'cause the game sees fit to not advance your spellcasting while requiring it to enter the class. We need to go somewhere? Need Wizard to teleport or Cleric to plane shift. We need to fight? We need casters to buff us up and then probably wipe the floor with the encounter anyways with or without us doing anything.

I remember that one Ragewalker guardian in a dungeon holding McGuffin, for instance; immune to arrows, pushes everybody who fails DC 28 Will-save to Blood Frenzy where they beat up their allies - died to Destruction after Disintegrate was eaten by Spell Resistance 'cause spells still work at range just fine.

It was not an isolate case of course; Purple Worm, Dragon, Death Giant, the couple of Frost Giants before, the Goblin Party, etc. - all the things we dealt with were simply easier to deal with magic even though we had first timer casters in our party whose spell selection was just far from optimal (never cast Polymorph for instance). And I thought I was playing a half-caster of sorts! Only things I ever got to cast were Greases with Imbue Arrow.


Having 3/4th of the stuff the party does done by few characters simply out of design isn't very fun, at least not in my experience. I have yet to hear from someone who has actually played 3.5 on those levels with hugely imbalanced party and enjoyed it. And I've heard a lot of tales.

And I've played and heard of many enjoyable games from those levels when the party was on broadly the same level of power. Funny how that works out.
You seem to have completely misunderstood what I meant and/or missed the posts I made after that one further explaining my point.
My beef is with saying that there is a "right" way to play the game and that "you're doing it wrong" if you don't play it one way or another and with claiming you are "bad at D&D" if you choose to play class X. Basically, your post has nothing to do with mine.

[Jormengand]

Yeah, well, see, in the old innocent days I didn't know that. As a consequence I wasn't exactly enjoying myself. Also, Fighter is a bad class regardless of how it compares to other classes (if the game is built for 20 levels, it's not okay for a class to gain its last unique class features on level 12), but I suppose that's neither here nor now.

But...

The point is, your argument says less that Dragon Disciple is bad and more that 3.5 is unbalanced - and I think we all already knew that.


This is not even counting Headlong Rush, right?

...

No, no it's not. 2400 damage. Oh, I forgot the Orc's STR bonus as well, so that's about 2450 damage.

[Eldariel]

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I meant and/or missed the posts I made after that one further explaining my point.
My beef is with saying that there is a "right" way to play the game and that "you're doing it wrong" if you don't play it one way or another and with claiming you are "bad at D&D" if you choose to play class X. Basically, your post has nothing to do with mine.

My point was that ignorance isn't really a bliss; the glorified innocent days for which Dragon Disciple supposedly exists don't, in my experience, lead to enjoyment for the player higher up when you get closer to finishing the class. If a player knows what he's getting into and plays a Dragon Disciple, that's fair; he chose what he's got coming for him.

But if a player in a group with no grasp of the relative abilities of the classes goes for Dragon Disciple 'cause he wants to be a Dragon, I can but see it going poorly for that person due to no fault of his own, simply because the class doesn't really do what it advertises. If I'm wrong, that's great! More power to him! My own experiences suggest that for that to work out though the Dragon Disciple needs to know what he's doing and coordinate with the rest of the party and the DM to create a good play experience for everybody, or use a houseruled (or PF) version of Dragon Disciple instead.

[Jormengand]

My point was that ignorance isn't really a bliss; the glorified innocent days for which Dragon Disciple supposedly exists don't, in my experience, lead to enjoyment for the player higher up when you get closer to finishing the class. If a player knows what he's getting into and plays a Dragon Disciple, that's fair; he chose what he's got coming for him.

But if a player in a group with no grasp of the relative abilities of the classes goes for Dragon Disciple 'cause he wants to be a Dragon, I can but see it going poorly for that person due to no fault of his own, simply because the class doesn't really do what it advertises. If I'm wrong, that's great! More power to him! My own experiences suggest that for that to work out though the Dragon Disciple needs to know what he's doing and coordinate with the rest of the party and the DM to create a good play experience for everybody, or use a houseruled (or PF) version of Dragon Disciple instead.

Anyone using PrCs, or even being high enough level to take them, without being able to work out what the DD does is too far into their depth.

Oh, and the PF DD is almost entirely useless - its stat boosts are a quarter of those of the 3.5 DD, for example.

[Eldariel]

Anyone using PrCs, or even being high enough level to take them, without being able to work out what the DD does is too far into their depth.

Oh, and the PF DD is almost entirely useless - its stat boosts are a quarter of those of the 3.5 DD, for example.

PF DD actually advances your spellcasting though, which makes up for a lot. And, honestly, the fact that 3.5 DD is horrible for casters while requiring casting to enter and giving extra slots is very counter-intuitive and you shouldn't take figuring that out for granted. PRCs are in the DMG so I wouldn't be surprised for first timers picking them up; we certainly did.

[Big Fau]

Visigani, you've been around the forums long enough to see Dragon Disciple discussed many times. What new insight were you intending to get out of this thread?

I'm willing to bet he's just trying to get a rise out of the forums.

[Jormengand]

It actually gives you spellcasting though, which makes up for a lot.

The point is that the stat boosts are almost worthless. There's no real point taking it over sorc 20.

[Eldariel]

The point is that the stat boosts are almost worthless. There's no real point taking it over sorc 20.

I don't follow. He gets +4 Strength over the first 4 levels and also gets 3 levels of casting. That's the same strength as the 3.5 version and 3 more casting while at it. Only stat bonuses he misses out on are +2 Cha and Dragon Apotheosis.

And Form of the Dragon stacks with these bonuses (unlike Polymorph) and thus makes up for what the 3.5 version gives you, and then some (your breath weapon isn't limited to 1/day, and you get additional casting so you can cast the shapechange stuff and all that many more times on top of your normal stats). The net outcome is much stronger than the 3.5 iteration. Like, Barbarian 8/Sorc 2/Dragon Disciple 10 is much more formidable in PF than in 3.5.

[Jormengand]

Like, Barbarian 8/Sorc 2/Dragon Disciple 10 is much more formidable in PF than in 3.5.

Please explain how exactly you intend to do roughly 2500 damage in one round with PF? I'm not saying "3.5 DD is more powerful than PF DD" I'm saying "There's more point in taking 3.5 DD than PF DD"

[ArqArturo]

The only good thing I've seen made with this PrC is a Barbarian/Bard with levels of dragon disciple. But even then, Rage Mage is much better.

[Jormengand]

The only good thing I've seen made with this PrC is a Barbarian/Bard with levels of dragon disciple. But even then, Rage Mage is much better.

Rage Mage almost certainly loses to Dragon Diver in a round.

[ArqArturo]

Rage Mage almost certainly loses to Dragon Diver in a round.

Is the prerequisite of that PrC to be a Barbarian/Ronnie James Dio?.

[Jormengand]

Is the prerequisite of that PrC to be a Barbarian/Ronnie James Dio?.

Dragon Diver is a DD which can do 56 times its normal attack damage in one round. Its normal attack damage is quite a lot.

[ArqArturo]

Ok. I take it back, then.

[Psyren]

The point is that the stat boosts are almost worthless. There's no real point taking it over sorc 20.

Sorc 20 beats almost every Sorc PrC out there in PF. You don't take PrCs to get more powerful in PF - the designers have even said this explicitly. Base (caster) class 20 is the route to RUP.

You take DD in PF because you want a flavorful gish, not because RUP is your be-all-end-all goal.

[ArqArturo]

Sorc 20 beats almost every Sorc PrC out there in PF. You don't take PrCs to get more powerful in PF - the designers have even said this explicitly. Base (caster) class 20 is the route to RUP.

You take DD in PF because you want a flavorful gish, not because RUP is your be-all-end-all goal.

This is why, I think, archetypes beat PrcCs.

[IronFist]

PF DD actually advances your spellcasting though, which makes up for a lot. And, honestly, the fact that 3.5 DD is horrible for casters while requiring casting to enter and giving extra slots is very counter-intuitive and you shouldn't take figuring that out for granted. PRCs are in the DMG so I wouldn't be surprised for first timers picking them up; we certainly did.

But the description for Dragon Disciple outright states it's not a caster pretige class. :smallconfused:

[Jormengand]

Sorc 20 beats almost every Sorc PrC out there in PF. You don't take PrCs to get more powerful in PF - the designers have even said this explicitly. Base (caster) class 20 is the route to RUP.

You take DD in PF because you want a flavorful gish, not because RUP is your be-all-end-all goal.

But the thing is, the only ways of making a PF DD are to make it normally (in which case you lose 3 levels of spellcasting and are still fairly bad in combat, with 12 bab and nothing to your name but +4 STR) and be a spellcaster who is almost, but not quite, able to hit things with a stick, OR to make a bardarian DD or equivalent which is bad at spellcasting but good at fighting. It's pretty hard to make something between these without it becoming a suck-of-all-trades rather than a jack-of-all-trades.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon Diver is a DD which can do 56 times its normal attack damage in one round. Its normal attack damage is quite a lot.
How?
Is it with crit or not?
Have a link?

[IronFist]

How?
Is it with crit or not?
Have a link?

High Strength, Headlong Rush, ubercharge.

[Tvtyrant]

Truly the best use for Dragon Disciple is on a dragon. Afterall it simply states that the entry cannot be by a half-dragon.

[Jormengand]

Truly the best use for Dragon Disciple is on a dragon. Afterall it simply states that the entry cannot be by a half-dragon.

No it doesn't. It states that you cannot already be of the dragon type, for example you cannot be a half-dragon.

[Flickerdart]

Truly the best use for Dragon Disciple is on a dragon. Afterall it simply states that the entry cannot be by a half-dragon.
Curiously, while I seem to recall some rule about half-dragon dragons not being allowed, no such language is present in the SRD. Time to mix and match some dragons!

[Tvtyrant]

No it doesn't. It states that you cannot already be of the dragon type, for example you cannot be a half-dragon.

Hmm, you are right. Clearly the best entry is a gelatinous dragon that is attempting to reclaim its heritage by becoming a dragon!

[ShurikVch]

High Strength, Headlong Rush, ubercharge.
Never seen a working ubercharger build wich can cause four-digit damage even on crit
Mostly just a misunderstanding of multiplier rules
People tend to forget: in D&D 2+2=3
And how high is Str? 100? 200?

[Jormengand]

Never seen a working ubercharger build wich can cause for-digit damage even on crit
Mostly just a misunderstanding of multiplier rules
People tend to forget: in D&D 2+2=3
And how high is Str? 100? 200?

Not that high, but you're making seven attacks with their damage increased by about 50 each, plus your strength, then the whole damage is doubled and doubled again.

[Tvtyrant]

Not that high, but you're making seven attacks with their damage increased by about 50 each, plus your strength, then the whole damage is doubled and doubled again.

You might as well post the build, it would be a lot easier to work with.

[Eldariel]

Please explain how exactly you intend to do roughly 2500 damage in one round with PF? I'm not saying "3.5 DD is more powerful than PF DD" I'm saying "There's more point in taking 3.5 DD than PF DD"

That's PF, most of the charging tools don't exist. The difference isn't between the class but the system. If you use 3.5 feats with PF DD you'll get superior results. Ergo, the class is better; who cares about anything else? Some casting is better than no casting.

Besides, there are superior classes for dealing damage in 3.5; Frenzied Berserker for instance, so if that's our criterion, why would we be taking 3.5 DD again? And 2500 damage is at the same time uselessly much and absolutely nothing in 3.5.


But the description for Dragon Disciple outright states it's not a caster pretige class. :smallconfused:

It says "realizing your heritage" bla bla bla. It says some Sorcs/Bards and mostly Barbs/Fighters/whatever enter. It doesn't outright state it's not a caster class and again, it requires casting to enter and grants you extra slots. That's not a difficult mistake to

[Jormengand]

You might as well post the build, it would be a lot easier to work with.

You go Orc bard 1 PsW 4 Barb 5 DD 10, take Headlong Rush and all the TWF stuff, spend all your power points on Psionic lion's charge and dive headlong into the enemy. I haven't written up a full build yet, but that's it so far. Maximise STR and WIS of course.

[IronFist]

You go Orc bard 1 PsW 4 Barb 5 DD 10, take Headlong Rush and all the TWF stuff, spend all your power points on Psionic lion's charge and dive headlong into the enemy. I haven't written up a full build yet, but that's it so far. Maximise STR and WIS of course.

You can't do that. You're limited by your manifester level.

[Jormengand]

You can't do that. You're limited by your manifester level.

Oh, then it only does about 2000 damage. Woe is me.

[Psyren]

But the thing is, the only ways of making a PF DD are to make it normally (in which case you lose 3 levels of spellcasting and are still fairly bad in combat, with 12 bab and nothing to your name but +4 STR) and be a spellcaster who is almost, but not quite, able to hit things with a stick, OR to make a bardarian DD or equivalent which is bad at spellcasting but good at fighting. It's pretty hard to make something between these without it becoming a suck-of-all-trades rather than a jack-of-all-trades.

Sorc 5/DD 8/Sorc 7 is a great gish build that gets you 9ths and full Draconic Bloodline progression. You even still get the bonus spells known, and Magical Lineage - very flavorful for this build - means you get 20/20 CL. And because you get the wings from your bloodline anyway, there's no reason at all to get them from DD 9 (granted, 90' fly is sweet, but 30' more speed isn't worth losing 9ths for.)

For your other complaints - BAB is pointless because you're likely using natural weapons (your claws and bite), so BAB won't increase your number of attacks anyway. If it's to-hit you're worried about, that can be boosted pretty trivially. Also, the stat boosts of the 3.5 and PF versions look identical to me, where did you get the "quarter" bit from?

My point is that comparing Sorc 10/DD 10 to Sorc 20 is fallacious; of course Sorc 20 wins. Pure casters will always beat gish builds on the power scale, especially when those casters get class features, which every single caster in PF does.


Curiously, while I seem to recall some rule about half-dragon dragons not being allowed, no such language is present in the SRD. Time to mix and match some dragons!

"Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)."

[jedipilot24]

Dragon Devotee from Races of the Dragon makes Dragon Disciple almost worthwhile for full BAB classes; almost.
In a low-op game it would be decent, but in higher-op games you'd be better of just taking the Half-Dragon racial class.

[Urpriest]

For your other complaints - BAB is pointless because you're likely using natural weapons (your claws and bite), so BAB won't increase your number of attacks anyway. If it's to-hit you're worried about, that can be boosted pretty trivially. Also, the stat boosts of the 3.5 and PF versions look identical to me, where did you get the "quarter" bit from?

BAB still increases your number of Unarmed Strikes. Most natural weapon builds still pick up Improved Unarmed Strike or similar for iteratives.

[Psyren]

BAB still increases your number of Unarmed Strikes. Most natural weapon builds still pick up Improved Unarmed Strike or similar for iteratives.

Only a Monk's IUS uses every part of the body though, so you can't punch and claw at the same time. Furthermore, combining IUS with natural weapons relegates all your natural weapons to secondary status, reducing both their hit and damage.

[ShurikVch]

Not that high, but you're making seven attacks with their damage increased by about 50 each, plus your strength, then the whole damage is doubled and doubled again.
1. "Doubled and doubled again" mean tripled. Are you forget: 2+2=3
2. Major problem:
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line No seven attacks. Claw/claw

[Juntao112]

Only a Monk's IUS uses every part of the body though, so you can't punch and claw at the same time. Furthermore, combining IUS with natural weapons relegates all your natural weapons to secondary status, reducing both their hit and damage.

Rules of the Game: Unarmed Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a)


Unarmed Attack Basics

The unarmed attack entry in Chapter 8 of the Player's Handbook contains most of the rules for fighting without weaponry. Here's an overview, along with a few additions and comments:

"You usually make an unarmed attack with a free hand."

As far as the rules are concerned, you can use just about any part of your body in an unarmed attack: a head butt, kick, elbow, knee, or forearm. This means you don't need a free hand to make an unarmed attack.

If you're making any unarmed attacks in addition to an attack with your primary hand (for instance, a sword slash and a kick or head butt), consider the unarmed attacks as off-hand attacks even if you aren't making them with a hand. See Part Two for notes about using unarmed strikes as primary and secondary weapons.

[Jormengand]

1. "Doubled and doubled again" mean tripled. Are you forget: 2+2=3
2. Major problem: No seven attacks. Claw/claw

1. Okay, it's *3 not *4. Still, tons of damage.

2. "A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed" and "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon," then all the TWF feats. So you get all your attacks exactly as though you had two swords.

[IronFist]

Btw, when you finish Dragon Disciple you qualify for Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. :smallamused:

[Jormengand]

Btw, when you finish Dragon Disciple you qualify for Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. :smallamused:

So you can abuse everything horribly and get 11 attacks at *3 damage? Me likey.

[Eldariel]

So you can abuse everything horribly and get 11 attacks at *3 damage? Me likey.

This comic (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/) sums this whole deal up perfectly.

[ShurikVch]

Hmm, you are right. Clearly the best entry is a gelatinous dragon that is attempting to reclaim its heritage by becoming a dragon!
Need more dragon in dragon! :smallsmile:
Steel Wyrmling Unseelie Fey/Dragon Devotee/Dragon Disciple/Dragonfire Adept ! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Rules of the Game: Unarmed Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070327a)

Well, I meant PF, but there is in fact a similar ruling there as well so I retract that statement. Still, this does mean that your natural weapons become secondary and thus only get 1/2 STR to damage and take a large penalty to hit. And besides, not everyone wants their savage dragon gish to need kung fu too.

[georgie_leech]

Well, I meant PF, but there is in fact a similar ruling there as well so I retract that statement. Still, this does mean that your natural weapons become secondary and thus only get 1/2 STR to damage and take a large penalty to hit. And besides, not everyone wants realises their savage dragon gish to needs kung fu too.

Fixed that for you. Why would you ever NOT want your dragon gish to use kung fu while flying?

[Juntao112]

Well, I meant PF, but there is in fact a similar ruling there as well so I retract that statement. Still, this does mean that your natural weapons become secondary and thus only get 1/2 STR to damage and take a large penalty to hit. And besides, not everyone wants their savage dragon gish to need kung fu too.

Claws and bites are ok, headbutts are not?

[ericgrau]

I tested some core melee builds in a simplified simulation program and the one with the best stats was the dragon disciple. It is a melee class with nice stats. I've also played a couple characters that made heavy use of wands and staffs to great effect with only one level of caster. So it's also a melee class for those who dip a level of sorcerer to effectively get UMD. With these two factors combined I'd say it's both the most powerful and yet also most versatile melee build in all of core. It also has a nice skill list but you don't get many skill points, so early on it's not as versatile unless you use ranger entry. But then you miss out on armor, hp, feats and/or rage. Ranger / whatever-full-BAB / sorc 1-2 entry might be a good compromise if you want a few more skill points.

I know horizon tripper gets more hyped up here for core but this build can do everything a horizon tripper can until level 11, but with way better stats. Horizon walker really is a weak PrC until you get at-will dimension door. Even then by level 12 you could buy a wand of dimension door for the dragon disciple if it matters that much to you. It's not unlimited, but I've never had a full wand or staff run out of charges in my entire life. You can also get other spells from other wands and staffs. Whereas the horizon tripper would have to throw away more attack bonus on a dip and get even worse stats. Without a PrC that compensates for the stat loss.

Internet people who don't bother ever reading the DMG use it as a pure caster PrC even though the DMG explicitly says this is a bad idea. And then they whine about it online for far far longer than it would take to read a couple paragraphs in a paper book.

[Psyren]

Fixed that for you. Why would you ever NOT want your dragon gish to use kung fu while flying?

I told you why - it makes all your other natural weapons secondary and that may not be desirable for everyone.


Claws and bites are ok, headbutts are not?

You can't use the same appendage, no. So punch + claw is out, and headbutt + bite is out. That leaves elbow strikes and kicks, sure, but those carry a thematic stigma (kung-fu again) that may not fit your character concept.

[Juntao112]

You can't use the same appendage, no. So punch + claw is out, and headbutt + bite is out. That leaves elbow strikes and kicks, sure, but those carry a thematic stigma (kung-fu again) that may not fit your character concept.

Pankration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration)

[Flickerdart]

You can't use the same appendage, no. So punch + claw is out, and headbutt + bite is out. That leaves elbow strikes and kicks, sure, but those carry a thematic stigma (kung-fu again) that may not fit your character concept.
Or, y'know, body slams.

[Psyren]

If you can justify it, great, but again not every DD is going to run out and grab IUS. I personally think the feat is better spent elsewhere.

[Zancloufer]

In Core and Never Winter Nights 1&2 Dragon Disciple actually made a fairly good melee build, perhaps one of the better ones if you planned ahead. Yes you lost 3 BAB from the Sorcerer/Bard dip + the 10 DD levels, but IMO the extra feats/stat points/special abilities more than made up for it.

Then again, in those cases there wasn't that many choices for mundanes that actually worked. NWN 1&2 had some really bad cases of clone builds, with the limited number of decent options. Weapon Master + something else (DD or Frenzied Beserker generally) was about the peak of melee optimization iirc.