[3.X] How to: Bard.

[Yael]

How is this class played like a bard should. I think this class is similar to the Conjurer? I mean Battlefield control? Or buff/debuffs I don't really know because I haven't read all the spells, but what puts it on tier 3? Why is it Tier 3 (outside of the spellcasting part)?

And, how it is supposed to be played properly?

NO PATHFINDER.

[Flickerdart]

Looking at a bard, one might think they are a jack of all trades that can pitch in wherever it's needed. This is a horrible mistake - bards, like any other class, are most effective when specializing to do a particular thing, it's just that they can choose from many things (pretty much everything, actually). They are T3 because they can fall back on their more general abilities when their focus doesn't pan out.

[Juntao112]

And, how it is supposed to be played properly?

Over the top campy (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?327699-Shiver-Me-Timbers-It-s-Black-Jack-Wellesley!)

[Kennisiou]

In general, a good bard focuses on buffing with some minor battlefield control or debuffing and occasionally also with the ability to weigh into combat themselves (although usually not for long -- low HP pool's a pain).

Also, with 6+ int skillpoints, spellcasting, and some really solid class features for both in and out of combat, bard is very versatile even without the splatbook support that makes them truly shine. They're tier 3 because they can do a lot of things, but none of them are powerful enough to really constitute "doing everything" like wizard or cleric.

If you're looking for good bard build/play advice, check out Dictum Mortuum's Bard Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/bards-handbook.html). If you want to look for specific builds or playstyles, check out sublime chord if doing more high-level spellcastery/battlefield controlly things sounds like your cup of tea, virtuoso if you want to have a bit more options for your music, and bardblade/bardsader if you want to weigh into the frontline while supporting allies and spreading some minor debuffs/battlefield control.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Bards are social manipulators, first and foremost. Want a spy/infitrator/master of disguise? Want a negotiator/diplomat who know whose palms to grease to get you in or out of trouble? That's where the bard shines.

The last bard I played wasn't 3.5, but it wouldn't be that hard to convert him over. Specc'd out as a master of languages and negotiation. Pumped CHA and INT, then priority was WIS, DEX, STR, and CON. Tried to talk his way out of every encounter, and great for putting foes off guard and setting up the flanking and sneak attack abushes. Built for getting information, and distraction.

The buff/debuff and skillmonkeying routes are traps. You'd be ....ok at either role, but thematically, they aren't stealth thieves, or medics. They're the con men. The first game I played that had a bard, our introduction to him was walking into the inn and being suckered with Suggestion for more coin to his purse while he played.

The RP options are endless too; look at Mercedes Lackey's Bardic Voices series for a huge variety of ideas. Haughty Guild bard commanding the best rooms at the inn, or lodging with the local lord. Scoundrel free bard, master of satire, inciting resistance against a tyrannical government. Cyrano de Bergerac or William Shakespear could be templates, as well.

[Kennisiou]

The buff/debuff and skillmonkeying routes are traps.

That's... No. So much no. Like first off "skill monkeying" encompasses exactly the sort of social skill speccing you're describing. If it's a trap, then you're leading them right into it. Second, bards have access to some of the best buff potential in the game with their spell list, class features, and feats. It's hardly a trap. It's literally what the class was designed to do. Debuffing... well yeah, they're not exactly necromancy spec'd wizards or dread necros or hexblades, but it's not something a bard should focus on, it's just something a bard should grab a few things to do because versatility is good and they have access to a few worthwhile debuff tools.

The things that you describe a bard doing are not things that a "buff/debuff and skllmonkey" bard can't do or would even be bad at doing. They're great at those things. They are, in fact, the things that a skillmonkey buff bard is supposed to be doing -- you know, when they're not using bardic music in combat to make their allies weapons erupt into flames (or better yet sonic energy) dealing 12d6 extra damage every attack. You basically just described an out-of-combat bard. And the wonderful, and I mean truly wonderful thing about D&D 3.5 bards is... the combat spec'd bard? He's just as good at the out of combat stuff as the out of combat bard. Sometimes even better since stuff like song of the heart and words of creation will also improve their non-combat bard song uses! Although your stat distribution is a tad off. Cha and int first is right but bards really don't need wisdom since the only relevant skill that it scales off of is Sense Motive and since their will save should be fine without getting more from wisdom thanks to good will progression. Low con is also a bad idea since your fort save is poor and your HP is low. It's all well and good to say that you shouldn't be the one taking dame or making the fort saves (you shouldn't, you really, really shouldn't be) but the fact of the matter is if the DM is actually looking to challenge the players then things will go wrong and the bard will get attacked, poisoned, hit by wizard save or dies, or worse. He'll need HP and fort to get out of that alive. Generally you go Cha>Int>Con>Dex or Str>Dex or Str>Wis (dex/strength priority depending on if you ever want to be good at using a melee weapon or if you just want to have more AC and maybe use a bow).

[SouthpawSoldier]

My view is skewed somewhat by the fact that my DM has ADD; we've yet to have a campaign get past 6th level before he changes his mind and decides to create a new one, change to PF/M&M/homebrew, etc. At low level, the most I could do was Inspire Courage; that +1 never really made much of a difference. We usually play Core only, so a lot of the splatbook fun gets left by the wayside too. When it came to skillmonkery, I was always outshined by the rogue, and strongly encouraged NOT to try scouting alongside him. Or picking locks, or doing any of the other tangible skillsets. A little party buffing and social skills was my limit of influence.

My stat distro was for that specific character, though I think DEX and WIS may have been backwards. Geared towards finesse with rapiers, with Oratory as my performance. Idea was in combat, all about the setup, and the sharp wit (again with the Cyrano de Bergerac).

It's a shame, cause the little taste I got makes me really excited to take a bard to the full potential. Unfortunately, that table is the only game in town, and we spend more time drawing up new characters than actually playing. I got more RP opportunities with that bard, and I had a few interesting ideas for directions to take him.

[Kennisiou]

My view is skewed somewhat by the fact that my DM has ADD; we've yet to have a campaign get past 6th level before he changes his mind and decides to create a new one, change to PF/M&M/homebrew, etc. At low level, the most I could do was Inspire Courage; that +1 never really made much of a difference. We usually play Core only, so a lot of the splatbook fun gets left by the wayside too. When it came to skillmonkery, I was always outshined by the rogue, and strongly encouraged NOT to try scouting alongside him. Or picking locks, or doing any of the other tangible skillsets. A little party buffing and social skills was my limit of influence.

Lacking trapfinding, it usually is a good idea for bards not to explore the lock-picking or device-disabling end of the skillmonkey side for sure, but "skill monkey" encompasses more than just that. A bard can definitely work well scouting ahead alongside a rogue by using their music or spells to help enhance his and the rogue's stealth and perceptive capabilities (song to enhance stealth requires a lot more work than is usually worth it, though, since I believe it takes some alt class features and/or feats). In core alone, inspire courage is pretty pathetic, and core + completes doesn't really make it better at all, that's for sure. If you start looking beyond that, though, there's the feat Song of the Heart that gives +1 to inspire courage, Words of Creation to double its bonuses, then you can use dragonfire inspiration to make all of the +1s into bonus 1d6s of fire damage instead... And that's before dealing with the fact that there's a magic item that gives an additional +1. If you really spec to optimize it you can pretty much make everyone into a terrifying monster.

If you're just stuck with core or core + completes, though, you will definitely see your music falling behind, but it's important to remember you can just take an action to start it and then stop and let the buffs continue for five rounds. In core/completes bard is a lot more reliant on his spells to make a difference than his music, but thankfully even there he's got a wide range of solid buffs (although suggestion, charm person and glibness are still among his most useful early level spells, making the buffs look a lot less appealing).


My stat distro was for that specific character, though I think DEX and WIS may have been backwards. Geared towards finesse with rapiers, with Oratory as my performance. Idea was in combat, all about the setup, and the sharp wit (again with the Cyrano de Bergerac).

It's a shame, cause the little taste I got makes me really excited to take a bard to the full potential. Unfortunately, that table is the only game in town, and we spend more time drawing up new characters than actually playing. I got more RP opportunities with that bard, and I had a few interesting ideas for directions to take him.

Haha, yeah, it's all good. I was a bit hasty to write off wis, forgetting that spot and listen are keyed off of it as well, meaning it's really far from worthless to the bard (although still generally its least useful stat unless you don't care about AC/reflex or attacking at all, in which case may as well drop some points in it). I'm sorry for jumping on you. In a campaign I'm playing one of our players is a bard in a relatively mid-to-high optimization group and he's been getting really frustrated with how useless he is. Only in social situations does he ever shine, and now that our sorc, artificer, factotum, and cleric have gotten a few more levels and more spells/infusions/skill points they're outdoing him there, too. He's been really resistant to anything that takes away from his image of the character as a "social character" rather than a combatant, but doesn't really seem to understand that he's basically trading away large amounts of combat potential for minimal social benefits. My gut instinct reading your post was that you were advising this player to do the same thing, which is just generally poor optimization and can be really frustrating for everyone involved if the group is high op and not low op. It's pretty clear that wasn't what you were doing, and should've been clear to me to begin with. I'm really sorry for jumping down your throat. I was definitely rude there and shouldn'tve been.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Eh, my feelings weren't hurt. Criticism is how we learn.

If you skim my "Bard Frustrations" thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311230) you'll see my irritation with the class. Built to be the perfect face and manipulator, but the party and DM just didn't want to let me play him that way. Leaving the character sheet with another player when they had a session on a night I worked nearly got him killed, b/c the player didn't want to play IC; instead of negotiating my way through a group of drow, he just ran away. PSH; I could sign in Drow and could've convinced them through diplomacy ALONE to let me pass. Take that, Drow SR!

I know that the build was just a few tweaks and an alignment shift away from becoming a Darth Treya or Count Dooku, turning weaker willed enemies into minions.

Above any other character I've played so far, the bard was FUN. My Darfallen Barb/Fighter whale hunter was easy to play, and ok at low level combat. Dull though; only so much you can do without falling into sterotypes. My Copper Dragonwrought was fun, but too complex for a first time player (played him as a twist off Nemo; damaged egg=lucky wing, and I was always trying to prank the other PC's). The bard master linguist/negotiator/hey, let me convince this Elder Red that we really aren't worth eating? Woulda been priceless.

I really am in love with the class. All I need is oportunities to really explore what they can do.