Druid Vs. Wizard

[Tiiba]

I almost certainly am overlooking something, but I looked at the wizard and the druid today, and it seemed to me that the druid is stronger in every way.

Druid has more hit points.
Druid has more spells per day.
Druid has better BAB.
Druid has better saves.
Druid can cast any spell he prays for, wizard has to hunt them down.
Druid can spontaneously convert spells to Summon Nature's Ally.
Druid can Wild Shape.

Why would anyone anywhere play a wizard? Lost a bet that said loser plays wizard?

[eggynack]

The spell list of the wizard is generally stronger and more versatile. The druid has a few gems, certainly, and their list is great in general, but wizards are looking at the best spell list in the entire game, and it makes all the difference. My general estimate is that wizards overtake druids in power level at around level 10 or 11, based purely on list power. Also, druids have like three prestige classes, and wizards have a bunch, which is a factor.

Edit: Also, if the wizard specializes or takes domain wizard, I'm pretty sure that he gets more or equal spells at every spell level of every level, apart from 0th's.

[Juntao112]

I almost certainly am overlooking something, but I looked at the wizard and the druid today, and it seemed to me that the druid is stronger in every way.

Druid has more hit points.
Druid has more spells per day.
Druid has better BAB.
Druid has better saves.
Druid can cast any spell he prays for, wizard has to hunt them down.
Druid can spontaneously convert spells to Summon Nature's Ally.
Druid can Wild Shape.

Why would anyone anywhere play a wizard? Lost a bet that said loser plays wizard?
Would you like to have a little exhibition match? Either a duel, or a series of diverse challenges, your choice.

[Norin]

One thing i find druids are better at:
Easier gameplay and more newbie friendly.

Wizards tend to work best for experienced players of the two.

[eggynack]

One thing i find druids are better at:
Easier gameplay and more newbie friendly.

Wizards tend to work best for experienced players of the two.
True, though druids are tricky for those not inclined to do bookkeeping. Between wild shape forms, summons, and the animal companion, the druid has a ridiculous amount to keep track of. Sure, wizards get summoning, polymorph, and the familiar, but the first two things aren't as intrinsic to the wizard's class' features, and the familiar's stats aren't as relevant as those of the AC.

[Norin]

True, though druids are tricky for those not inclined to do bookkeeping. Between wild shape forms, summons, and the animal companion, the druid has a ridiculous amount to keep track of. Sure, wizards get summoning, polymorph, and the familiar, but the first two things aren't as intrinsic to the wizard's class' features, and the familiar's stats aren't as relevant as those of the AC.

Sure, it depends on how you play your char in both classes.
Generaly both come with a bookkeeping headache attached to the world shattering powers.

Im tired of bookkeeping nowdays so my druid has had no ac and done close to no wildshaping for a handfull of sessions. Mostly just acting as a bfc/buffer/blaster caster. Its a nice change in pace really.

The beauty of these tier 1 classes is that you can rest and change your whole charcter setup if you want to play differently. :smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you, for example, see Planar Binding on the Druid spell list? No?

Well a Wizard 15 or Sorcerer 16 who feels like investing a bit of time can call up and bind himself a dozen or so level 17 clerics in a couple of days with no real risk, or a dozen Pit Fiends.

Have a Wizard 15 with a month or so of downtime? Then use Greater Planar Binding to call and bind a hundred Planetar's. Then have them do the full Clericzilla buff routine before immediately hitting them with Smokey Confinement. Have each one hold two such Confinement vials with orders to immediately smash them upon being released before defending you and your allies against any foes present to the best of their ability. For real fun have an Ice Assassin Solar with Tenacious Magic: Permanency make permanent telepathic bonds between each of them and you.

In the end you have a hundred Planetar's stored in a single crystal vial which you can then keep in a glove of storing. If threatened by something like the Druid then the wizard can retrieve the vial as a free action and then smash it as a standard action. All of the sudden their is an entire angelic war host on the field to defend the Wizard, each a fully buffed and battle ready level 17 Cleric (in addition to their other natural abilities). If you don't want to use Planetar's then use Pit Fiends. You loose the casting but you gain the side benefit of not pissing off the good aligned forces.

That is just one of a hundred different similar things that a wizard can do that a Druid simply can't out of its natural resources.

Once month of downtime, no real risk, and (potentially) no expended valuable resources and the Wizard has a WMD on hand with no expiration date.

In a straight, no prep, battle between the two its a lot more even but the Wizard can still win most of the time (especially if it's level 17+). For one the wizard can repick his entire list of prepared spells with a single standard (and potentially swift) action. Use Time Stop first and it doesn't even cost anything. He can also repick his entire feat list in that time stop as well. Yes, a Wizard can effectively pull off a pretty much total character rebuild in a single Time Stop.

---
Look at the list of core 9th level Druid spells.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#ninthLevelDruidSpells


Antipathy: Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Shambler: Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.
Shapechange F: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX: Calls creature to fight.
Sympathy M: Object or location attracts certain creatures.

Foresight and Shapechange are the only really good spells on that list. Throw in Storm of Vengeance and you have the only 3 spells that are actually worth being rated as 9th level spells.

Even when you go outside of core the high level Druid spell list just doesn't compare well to the Wizard spell list.

[Angelalex242]

Cleric can probably take a wizard. Druid not so much.

Cleric vs. Wizard usually boils down to Wish vs. Miracle. Which in turn boils down to how good the wizard is at word wishes vs. how much the Cleric's god likes him that day.

Then again, a Druid's best tactic may be to wildshape into a flea, fly in the wizard's mouth, and then toss spells at him from INSIDE HIS ESOPHAGUS with natural spell.

[Aharon]

Do you, for example, see Planar Binding on the Druid spell list? No?

Well a Wizard 15 or Sorcerer 16 who feels like investing a bit of time can call up and bind himself a dozen or so level 17 clerics in a couple of days with no real risk, or a dozen Pit Fiends.

Have a Wizard 15 with a month or so of downtime? Then use Greater Planar Binding to call and bind a hundred Planetar's. Then have them do the full Clericzilla buff routine before immediately hitting them with Smokey Confinement. Have each one hold two such Confinement vials with orders to immediately smash them upon being released before defending you and your allies against any foes present to the best of their ability. For real fun have an Ice Assassin Solar with Tenacious Magic: Permanency make permanent telepathic bonds between each of them and you.

In the end you have a hundred Planetar's stored in a single crystal vial which you can then keep in a glove of storing. If threatened by something like the Druid then the wizard can retrieve the vial as a free action and then smash it as a standard action. All of the sudden their is an entire angelic war host on the field to defend the Wizard, each a fully buffed and battle ready level 17 Cleric (in addition to their other natural abilities). If you don't want to use Planetar's then use Pit Fiends. You loose the casting but you gain the side benefit of not pissing off the good aligned forces.

That is just one of a hundred different similar things that a wizard can do that a Druid simply can't out of its natural resources.

Once month of downtime, no real risk, and (potentially) no expended valuable resources and the Wizard has a WMD on hand with no expiration date.

In a straight, no prep, battle between the two its a lot more even but the Wizard can still win most of the time (especially if it's level 17+). For one the wizard can repick his entire list of prepared spells with a single standard (and potentially swift) action. Use Time Stop first and it doesn't even cost anything. He can also repick his entire feat list in that time stop as well. Yes, a Wizard can effectively pull off a pretty much total character rebuild in a single Time Stop.

---
Look at the list of core 9th level Druid spells.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm#ninthLevelDruidSpells


Antipathy: Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals.
Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Shambler: Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.
Shapechange F: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.
Storm of Vengeance: Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX: Calls creature to fight.
Sympathy M: Object or location attracts certain creatures.

Foresight and Shapechange are the only really good spells on that list. Throw in Storm of Vengeance and you have the only 3 spells that are actually worth being rated as 9th level spells.

Even when you go outside of core the high level Druid spell list just doesn't compare well to the Wizard spell list.

Wouldn't the buffs of the smokey confined planetars run out?
How does the swift action wizard reconfiguration work? I either haven't heard of it at all, or don't remember it right now.

[molten_dragon]

I almost certainly am overlooking something, but I looked at the wizard and the druid today, and it seemed to me that the druid is stronger in every way.

Druid has more hit points.
Druid has more spells per day.
Druid has better BAB.
Druid has better saves.
Druid can cast any spell he prays for, wizard has to hunt them down.
Druid can spontaneously convert spells to Summon Nature's Ally.
Druid can Wild Shape.

This is one of the many things in D&D that look one way at first glance, but turn out to be something else entirely. Druids do have far more class features than a wizard (some of them being some of the most powerful class features around) and are sturdier. But a wizard's spell list is much more powerful than a druid's, and that more than balances the scales.

In terms of what the two classes can offer to an adventuring party, Druid and Wizard are pretty even.


Why would anyone anywhere play a wizard? Lost a bet that said loser plays wizard?

Not everyone has to (or wants to) play the most powerful thing in the game all the time.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wouldn't the buffs of the smokey confined planetars run out?

Time arguably doesn't pass within the vial. Even if they don't emerge buffed, it's still a hundred Planetar's that can each cast as a level 17 cleric.


How does the swift action wizard reconfiguration work? I either haven't heard of it at all, or don't remember it right now.
Swift action is Greater Rod of Quicken + Wish to replicate Spell Engine.

It's a better choice to do Greater Rod of Maximize+Time Stop, Free action Shapechange to Zodar, Wish to replicate Spell Engine, Shapechange, to another form, Free action Shapechange to Zodar, Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation to repick all your feats, Free action shapechange back to your normal combat form. Throw down buffs or ways to make your opponent suffer.

You can pull off a true Schrodinger's Wizard at the cost of a single 9th level spell slot expended (outside of your regular daily shapechange buff).

It's one of the things that moves the Wizard above the Cleric, Artificer, and Archivist at level 17+.

[molten_dragon]

Do you, for example, see Planar Binding on the Druid spell list? No?

Well a Wizard 15 or Sorcerer 16 who feels like investing a bit of time can call up and bind himself a dozen or so level 17 clerics in a couple of days with no real risk, or a dozen Pit Fiends.

Have a Wizard 15 with a month or so of downtime? Then use Greater Planar Binding to call and bind a hundred Planetar's. Then have them do the full Clericzilla buff routine before immediately hitting them with Smokey Confinement. Have each one hold two such Confinement vials with orders to immediately smash them upon being released before defending you and your allies against any foes present to the best of their ability. For real fun have an Ice Assassin Solar with Tenacious Magic: Permanency make permanent telepathic bonds between each of them and you.

In the end you have a hundred Planetar's stored in a single crystal vial which you can then keep in a glove of storing. If threatened by something like the Druid then the wizard can retrieve the vial as a free action and then smash it as a standard action. All of the sudden their is an entire angelic war host on the field to defend the Wizard, each a fully buffed and battle ready level 17 Cleric (in addition to their other natural abilities). If you don't want to use Planetar's then use Pit Fiends. You loose the casting but you gain the side benefit of not pissing off the good aligned forces.

That is just one of a hundred different similar things that a wizard can do that a Druid simply can't out of its natural resources.

Once month of downtime, no real risk, and (potentially) no expended valuable resources and the Wizard has a WMD on hand with no expiration date.

In a straight, no prep, battle between the two its a lot more even but the Wizard can still win most of the time (especially if it's level 17+). For one the wizard can repick his entire list of prepared spells with a single standard (and potentially swift) action. Use Time Stop first and it doesn't even cost anything. He can also repick his entire feat list in that time stop as well. Yes, a Wizard can effectively pull off a pretty much total character rebuild in a single Time Stop.

Yeah, but if you're talking that level of cheese for the wizard, the druid probably has planar shepherd levels. Your month of prep time is 10 for him, and every day for that 10 months he can be wild shaping into an efreet at least 3 times and granting his awakened former animal companion wishes to be used for his own benefit, which allows him to replicate greater planar binding and easily exceed your trick.

[eggynack]

Yeah, but if you're talking that level of cheese for the wizard, the druid probably has planar shepherd levels. Your month of prep time is 10 for him, and every day for that 10 months he can be wild shaping into an efreet at least 3 times and granting his awakened former animal companion wishes to be used for his own benefit, which allows him to replicate greater planar binding and easily exceed your trick.
That's not really druid cheese, so much as planar shepherd cheese. Once PrC's enter into it, things change somewhat, with the wizard likely doing some incantarix stuff, with maybe some other form of cheese on the side. I don't know which class comes out ahead in high level play with PrC's.

[Aharon]

Time arguably doesn't pass within the vial. Even if they don't emerge buffed, it's still a hundred Planetar's that can each cast as a level 17 cleric.


Swift action is Greater Rod of Quicken + Wish to replicate Spell Engine.

It's a better choice to do Greater Rod of Maximize+Time Stop, Free action Shapechange to Zodar, Wish to replicate Spell Engine, Shapechange, to another form, Free action Shapechange to Zodar, Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation to repick all your feats, Free action shapechange back to your normal combat form. Throw down buffs or ways to make your opponent suffer.

You can pull off a true Schrodinger's Wizard at the cost of a single 9th level spell slot expended (outside of your regular daily shapechange buff).

It's one of the things that moves the Wizard above the Cleric, Artificer, and Archivist at level 17+.

@Angelic Hordes coming forth
Yes, it's powerful. I was just curious about this minor point.
@Spell Engine
Huh. Overlooked this gem till now. Thanks for the tip.

[molten_dragon]

That's not really druid cheese, so much as planar shepherd cheese. Once PrC's enter into it, things change somewhat, with the wizard likely doing some incantarix stuff, with maybe some other form of cheese on the side. I don't know which class comes out ahead in high level play with PrC's.

Fair enough I suppose. Although barring maybe tainted scholar, I don't know of any wizard prestige classes that match planar shepherd on the cheese scale.

[Kurald Galain]

Well a Wizard 15 or Sorcerer 16 who feels like investing a bit of time can call up and bind himself a dozen or so level 17 clerics in a couple of days with no real risk, or a dozen Pit Fiends.

Okay, but that's pretty high level. How bad would the difference be at level 5 or at level 10?

[eggynack]

Okay, but that's pretty high level. How bad would the difference be at level 5 or at level 10?
The druid is probably better at level 5, and I think they're around equal at level 10. At low levels, the druid list is at its best, and the animal companion means the most that it ever will. Later on, the druid list gets worse and worse, relative to the wizard list, and the animal companion goes the way of all fighters. Wild shape scales alright, but it's probably better early on, at least until dire tortoise. So, y'know, the difference would be the opposite of bad at level 5 from the druid's perspective.

[Rebel7284]

At levels 1-6, the druid will nearly always come out on top.
At levels 7-14, it's a toss up.
Any higher than that, and the druid likely doesn't stand a chance.

Ultimately though, you're comparing a Fission Nuke to a Fusion Nuke.

[Emperor Tippy]

Okay, but that's pretty high level. How bad would the difference be at level 5 or at level 10?

At level 5 the Druid is pretty much hands down better. Animal Companion is still a real threat, Druid just got Wildshape and is thus a bear that wants to maul your face off, Druid spells are decently good for the level.

Level 10 means 5th level spells. That means the caster can still bind themselves a couple of Crysmal's with their at-will Mind Thrust ability and burrow speed or (best core choice) a dozen Hound Archon's. Those have Greater Teleport so just throw up a Lesser Telepathic Bond with one of them every so often and you can have them all on hand and ready to kick butt in the same round. Even without Planar Binding fun, the wizard still has the noticeably better spell list at this point and has Teleport along with Resilient Sphere while the Druid lacks any ability to prevent teleportation at this level and can't break a Resilient Sphere either (which means that the wizard can just wait out most of the Druid's buffs if he wants. For extra fun the Wizard can make that a Selective Resilient Sphere and thus he can cast against the Druid while remaining pretty much totally immune to anything that the Druid has at this level.

[kabreras]

I dont really get the spell engine trick ...

Must be missing something

[Karnith]

I dont really get the spell engine trick ...
There's really not much to understand. Spell Engine is a Wizard spell that lets you switch out your prepared spells for spells in your spellbook. Normally it has a 10-minute casting time, rendering it combat-ineffective, but replicating it via Wish lets you get the benefit after only a single standard action. The rest of the "trick" is just getting a Wish for free (by Shapechanging into a Zodar or whatever).

[Chronos]

My personal view is that at reasonable optimization and mid levels, both are insanely overpowered, and that at that point, it doesn't really matter that one is more insanely overpowered than the other. The thing with the druid, though, is that it's unconditionally overpowered: A wizard can be crippled by low levels, or by low skill at playing, or by somehow getting surprised. Admittedly, these can all be fixed, but they can still be a problem until that happens. A druid, though, remains overpowered under all circumstances: At low levels, your animal companion dominates everything; the obvious "newbie trap" options for a druid are nearly as good as the optimized ones; and even if your prepared spells are entirely wrong for a situation, you can always make good use of a few summons.

[kabreras]

Ah well ok i was looking at the magic of faerun version that do not have the swaping lines ...

[Karnith]

Ah well ok i was looking at the magic of faerun version that do not have the swaping lines ...
Try Spell Compendium, p. 198. It's the most recent version of the spell, and it's completely different.

[Brookshw]

Storm of vengeance made the list of good level 9 spells? :smallconfused:

[Emperor Tippy]

Storm of vengeance made the list of good level 9 spells? :smallconfused:

No, it made the list as "should probably rate as a 9th level spell". It's not good for that level but it's generally inline with other straight damage 9th level spells and notably above virtually all lower level straight damage spells before metamagic.

[Invader]

I would maintain that outside of the playground in your average non optimized game both a cleric and a druid would beat a wizard but with any kind of foresight not so much.

[ericgrau]

The wizard has a better spell list. That is all.

[Story]

My personal view is that at reasonable optimization and mid levels, both are insanely overpowered, and that at that point, it doesn't really matter that one is more insanely overpowered than the other. The thing with the druid, though, is that it's unconditionally overpowered: A wizard can be crippled by low levels, or by low skill at playing, or by somehow getting surprised. Admittedly, these can all be fixed, but they can still be a problem until that happens. A druid, though, remains overpowered under all circumstances: At low levels, your animal companion dominates everything; the obvious "newbie trap" options for a druid are nearly as good as the optimized ones; and even if your prepared spells are entirely wrong for a situation, you can always make good use of a few summons.

Unless of course your Druid never wildshapes, never casts, never uses its AC and goes into melee with a non proficient scimitar. Isn't that what the WOTC playtesters allegedly did?

[Yuki Akuma]

Unless of course your Druid never wildshapes, never casts, never uses its AC and goes into melee with a non proficient scimitar. Isn't that what the WOTC playtesters allegedly did?

I'm unsure how the WotC playtesters could be so bad that their Druid would lose proficiency with scimitars.

(Hint: Druids are proficient with scimitars.)

[Big Fau]

Fair enough I suppose. Although barring maybe tainted scholar, I don't know of any wizard prestige classes that match planar shepherd on the cheese scale.

Shadowcraft Mage with the Echoing Shadow Miracle setup could do it.

The biggest difference between the two classes is the Divination spells IMO. The Druid's got a couple, but the Wizard has a majority of the ones that allow him to predict the future (the Cleric being where the rest went).

The Wizard also gets a class feature that can potentially let him Commune 1/week with no cost to himself.

[Talya]

Shadowcraft Mage with the Echoing Shadow Miracle setup could do it.


I'm forgetting, is there some trick that allows them to cast Miracle as a shadow-spell? As I recall, both the Shadow spells and the Shadowcraft Mage class feature is limited to emulating sorcerer or wizard evocation and conjuration (summoning/creation) spells

[Big Fau]

I'm forgetting, is there some trick that allows them to cast Miracle as a shadow-spell? As I recall, both the Shadow spells and the Shadowcraft Mage class feature is limited to emulating sorcerer or wizard evocation and conjuration (summoning/creation) spells

Arcane Disciple (Luck), and Miracle is Evocation.

[Angelalex242]

Nobody likes the transform into a flea, fly in the wizard's mouth, and cast spells at him from inside idea?

Funny thing about wizard spells that target is...they require line of sight. And nobody has line of sight in their own throat. Non targeted wizard spells? Well, the druid then has total cover relative to the spell by the wizard's own body.

Meanwhile, the Druid's natural spelled targeted spells work fine...indeed, he can't see anything BUT his opponent, for that matter...

[Talya]

Arcane Disciple (Luck), and Miracle is Evocation.

That doesn't work.

Arcane Disciple doesn't make Miracle a sor/wiz spell. It just puts it on your spell list.

Note that the shadowcraft mage doesn't care if the spell is on his spell list. He can have banned conjuration (still a bad idea) and evocation, and still cast all the evocation/conjuration (summoning/creation) spells as shadow spells. The ability to cast Miracle as a domain spell due to arcane disciple only puts it on your list, it doesn't put it on the sorc/wiz list.

Hells, a cleric shadowcraft mage (viable) still can't cast a shadow miracle, because their shadow spells still only emulate sor/wiz spells.


Nobody likes the transform into a flea, fly in the wizard's mouth, and cast spells at him from inside idea?.

Fleas are wingless. Druids also don't get smaller than Tiny wildshape forms before epic levels. Anything small enough to fit in a mouth is two size categories smaller than that.

[ahenobarbi]

Nobody likes the transform into a flea, fly in the wizard's mouth, and cast spells at him from inside idea?

Funny thing about wizard spells that target is...they require line of sight. And nobody has line of sight in their own throat. Non targeted wizard spells? Well, the druid then has total cover relative to the spell by the wizard's own body.

Meanwhile, the Druid's natural spelled targeted spells work fine...indeed, he can't see anything BUT his opponent, for that matter...

A few problems with that. Firstly you can't wildshape into flea (they're too small). Secondly there are no rules that allow you to hide in wizard's mouth.

[Talya]

A few problems with that. Firstly you can't wildshape into flea (they're too small). Secondly there are no rules that allow you to hide in wizard's mouth.

The ear would be a better idea, even if there were rules.

[WhamBamSam]

It's one of the things that moves the Wizard above the Cleric, Artificer, and Archivist at level 17+.Some Cleric Domains have Time Stop which can be DMM Persisted for 4 turn attempts, giving the Cleric time to rest and re-prepare spells. Using the full 24 hours, he could probably make the necessary feat adjustments via Chaos Shuffling as well, since it only takes 9 hours to rest and re-prepare, he can easily do it twice within the Time Stop. It's not as slick or as flashy as your trick, but it seems it should be about as effective, apart from the fact that the Schrodinger Wizard is superior to the Schrodinger Cleric who doesn't get to change domains around.

[Big Fau]

That doesn't work.

Arcane Disciple doesn't make Miracle a sor/wiz spell. It just puts it on your spell list.

Note that the shadowcraft mage doesn't care if the spell is on his spell list. He can have banned conjuration (still a bad idea) and evocation, and still cast all the evocation/conjuration (summoning/creation) spells as shadow spells. The ability to cast Miracle as a domain spell due to arcane disciple only puts it on your list, it doesn't put it on the sorc/wiz list.

This was the ability I was referring to:


Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell’s strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.

That's the exploit that allows Miracle. It doesn't say "Sor/Wiz spell list", it just says Sor/Wiz Summoning/Calling/Evocation. The wording of Arcane Disciple does the rest:


Add the chosen domain's list of spells to your class list.

[Angelalex242]

A few problems with that. Firstly you can't wildshape into flea (they're too small). Secondly there are no rules that allow you to hide in wizard's mouth.

Actually you can...at epic levels.

Feat: Fine Wild Shape:[Wild][Epic]

Also, Shapechange the spells works for that.

"Any creature fine to colossal in size, including gaseous or incorporeal..."

And there are rules that allow you to hide in the wizard. It's called the 'swallowed whole' rules, except without the crushing or acid damage since you're not in his stomach.

And even if he did have to take crushing and acid damage, that's still MUCH safer then letting the wizard have line of sight on him.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Some Cleric Domains have Time Stop which can be DMM Persisted for 4 turn attempts, giving the Cleric time to rest and re-prepare spells. Using the full 24 hours, he could probably make the necessary feat adjustments via Chaos Shuffling as well, since it only takes 9 hours to rest and re-prepare, he can easily do it twice within the Time Stop. It's not as slick or as flashy as your trick, but it seems it should be about as effective, apart from the fact that the Schrodinger Wizard is superior to the Schrodinger Cleric who doesn't get to change domains around.

Be a Cleric of an Ideal and cast substitute domain (SpC)?

[Radar]

As far as Wizard's spell superiority goes, I'd like to point out the elephant in the room:
Celerity spells - those are massive gamechangers. Only Psions have comparable action economy tricks.

@Angelalex242
This is sadly not a viable tactic, since:
1. You have to be epic.
2. The wizard has to purposfuly swallow you - it can't be done by accident.

[Chronos]

Not to mention, if you're relying on Shapechange, then the wizard can just as easily hide in the druid's bodily orifices, since they get that spell, too. Yes, Shapechange is one of the most powerful spells in the game, but it's the only one of those spells that druids get. They don't get Wish, or Gate, or Genesis, or Time Stop. Wizards get all of those, and clerics can get Miracle and Gate, and possibly Shapechange and Time Stop with the right domains.

[Angelalex242]

I dunno. If you're trying to force your opponent to swallow you, I'd think the grapple check for swallow whole would simply be reversed. The swallowing character doesn't swallow you if he wins, and does if he loses.

And the smart Druid should buff himself with freedom of movement first, so the grapple check of the wizard doesn't even apply...he smoothly slides down the wizard's throat.

For added giggles, turn into a flea sized wraith with shapechange. Now you can energy drain the wizard to death from inside of him, and being incorporeal, the acid and crushing damage definitely doesn't apply.

[Eldariel]

Fair enough I suppose. Although barring maybe tainted scholar, I don't know of any wizard prestige classes that match planar shepherd on the cheese scale.

Tainted Scholar >>>> Planar Shepherd. They aren't even on the same planet. Dweomerkeeper is also open to Wizards. Planar Shepherd is about on par with Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Red Wizard, etc. Wizard has a lot of ridiculous PRC options.


Okay, but that's pretty high level. How bad would the difference be at level 5 or at level 10?

Well, Lesser Planar Binding can bring Nightmares which have Astral Projection and Etherealness as Su abilities. That's pretty good on level 9.

It's also worth noting that on level 20, Druid has Shapechange which replicates a good number of stuff including Planar Bindings (through Wish). Overall, Shapechange is available to both and replicates much of the good Wizard-stuff, which gives Druid a fighting chance if not an actual advantage.

Wizards still have an easier time using it not having to deal with Su-abilities, however, and I don't remember off the top of my head what's going on with access to stuff like Time Stop, Disjunction, etc.

[WhamBamSam]

Be a Cleric of an Ideal and cast substitute domain (SpC)?It's in Complete Champion and says...

Upon casting substitute domain, you can swap one of your current domains for another that your deity offers.So it won't work for a Cleric of an Ideal. You're limited to the range of domains offered by a particular deity who grants Trickery or Time or whatever, but you're right, Substitute Domain does help.

[ericgrau]

I'm unsure how the WotC playtesters could be so bad that their Druid would lose proficiency with scimitars.

(Hint: Druids are proficient with scimitars.)

Well it goes along well with the bad presumptions about the playtesters not knowing the rules in general. And then WotC immediately, around 2003, writes guides about the more intricate and advanced rules including the use of battlefield control spells. It's almost as if they really do know what's in the game they wrote.

[ahenobarbi]

Actually you can...at epic levels.

Feat: Fine Wild Shape:[Wild][Epic]

Also, Shapechange the spells works for that.

"Any creature fine to colossal in size, including gaseous or incorporeal..."

Doesn't mean much with epic rules having eipc sellcasting siliness.



And there are rules that allow you to hide in the wizard. It's called the 'swallowed whole' rules, except without the crushing or acid damage since you're not in his stomach.

Most wizards don't have that ability. And it takes ation on part of the wizard, not on part of the druid to take it.

[Radar]

I dunno. If you're trying to force your opponent to swallow you, I'd think the grapple check for swallow whole would simply be reversed. The swallowing character doesn't swallow you if he wins, and does if he loses.

And the smart Druid should buff himself with freedom of movement first, so the grapple check of the wizard doesn't even apply...he smoothly slides down the wizard's throat.

For added giggles, turn into a flea sized wraith with shapechange. Now you can energy drain the wizard to death from inside of him, and being incorporeal, the acid and crushing damage definitely doesn't apply.
Swallow Whole is a special attack - you can't force anyone physicaly to use it. What you are looking for, is the Escape Artist skill - you don't even need to be Fine-sized, but it helps. You still need to get close to the wizard, which is much harder then optimising a single skill.

[Spuddles]

Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster gets a druid all the wizard spells he needs- magic circle, planar binding, teleport, time stop, celerity, etc.

It's also worth noting that if the wizard doesnt pick up a method of spontaneous casting and versatile spellcaster, the druid will actually have earlier access to a horde of hound archons, nightmate astral projection, etc.

[Angelalex242]

Escape Artist, huh?

Also amusing.

"I know an old wizard who swallowed a horse...he's dead, of course!

Might be one of the simplest ways to win with shapechange. Get inside your opponent's stomach, then your next shape change is to a great wyrm Gold Dragon. Fine->Colossal, the poor wizard is only size medium, wizard explodes violently...

[Radar]

Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster gets a druid all the wizard spells he needs- magic circle, planar binding, teleport, time stop, celerity, etc.

It's also worth noting that if the wizard doesnt pick up a method of spontaneous casting and versatile spellcaster, the druid will actually have earlier access to a horde of hound archons, nightmate astral projection, etc.
1. Magical Training doesn't work like that - the casting it provides does not merge with any casting class other then wizard/sorcerer.

2. If you really want to gain arcane spell slots on a druid, then you totaly can do that. It's cheesy as fondue, but take a look at Dragonsblood pool from CM. This location gives arcane spell slots to any spontaneous caster - yes, even divine. And if you have one of those, you can push the rules a bit more to gain more and more of them through Extra Slot feat (although that part is a bit iffy). Then you just have to spend WBL on Drake Helms (I'm not sure, if those aren't available to divine casters anyway) or Runestaffs containing spells you want.

[eggynack]

Fleas are wingless. Druids also don't get smaller than Tiny wildshape forms before epic levels. Anything small enough to fit in a mouth is two size categories smaller than that.
Well, you can get a bit closer with halfling druid substitution levels (RotW, 157). Those get you down to diminutive pre-epic. It's a step in the right direction, though I can't think of a way to hit fine.

[Spuddles]

1. Magical Training doesn't work like that - the casting it provides does not merge with any casting class other then wizard/sorcerer.

2. If you really want to gain arcane spell slots on a druid, then you totaly can do that. It's cheesy as fondue, but take a look at Dragonsblood pool from CM. This location gives arcane spell slots to any spontaneous caster - yes, even divine. And if you have one of those, you can push the rules a bit more to gain more and more of them through Extra Slot feat (although that part is a bit iffy). Then you just have to spend WBL on Drake Helms (I'm not sure, if those aren't available to divine casters anyway) or Runestaffs containing spells you want.

Magical Training gives you a spellbook. Rules compendium lets characters with spellbools add spells to their spellbooks, and spells contained in a spellbook are considered spells known. Again, rules compendium. Then, versatile spellcaster lets you cast any spell you know. Which is time stop, say, because its in your book and you know it.

[Big Fau]

Magical Training gives you a spellbook. Rules compendium lets characters with spellbools add spells to their spellbooks, and spells contained in a spellbook are considered spells known. Again, rules compendium. Then, versatile spellcaster lets you cast any spell you know. Which is time stop, say, because its in your book and you know it.

You know, every single time I see this I wonder why people overlook this one sentence:


The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.

Time Stop is not on the Druid's spell list, and Magical training doesn't change that.

[Story]

I'm unsure how the WotC playtesters could be so bad that their Druid would lose proficiency with scimitars.

(Hint: Druids are proficient with scimitars.)

Oh I missed that. I guess that's what made them think fighting with a scimitar was a good idea. After all, it is one of the Druid's class features.

[Pickford]

Karnith:

The rest of the "trick" is just getting a Wish for free (by Shapechanging into a Zodar or whatever).

What if you already used the shapechange into Zodar wish for that year?

Angelalex242:

Might be one of the simplest ways to win with shapechange. Get inside your opponent's stomach, then your next shape change is to a great wyrm Gold Dragon. Fine->Colossal, the poor wizard is only size medium, wizard explodes violently...

While this makes for an interesting visual, and is an idea I once thought of myself, it is against the rules of the polymorph subschool.


If insufficient space exists for the assumed form, the spell fails.

If I recall correctly, WoTC has also ruled that if one were swallowed whole by a polymorphed creature, for example, and the spell ended, the swallowed creature would actually end up in an adjacent square rather than either the creature inside being compacted or the swallower being exploded. Because? Magic.

[Talya]

Magical Training gives you a spellbook. Rules compendium lets characters with spellbools add spells to their spellbooks, and spells contained in a spellbook are considered spells known. Again, rules compendium. Then, versatile spellcaster lets you cast any spell you know. Which is time stop, say, because its in your book and you know it.

While this doesn't work with a druid, doesn't this one feat then make a sorcerer tier 1?

[Angelalex242]

In this case, the best idea I can think of is shapeshift into flea sized wraith with the level 9 spell. Energy drain the wizard from the inside to your heart's content. Hope he loses the 9th level spell slot from negative levels he had shapechange prepared in before he thinks to shapechange himself.

[eggynack]

In this case, the best idea I can think of is shapeshift into flea sized wraith with the level 9 spell. Energy drain the wizard from the inside to your heart's content. Hope he loses the 9th level spell slot from negative levels he had shapechange prepared in before he thinks to shapechange himself.
Energy drain sounds like a whole lotta work for not all that much gain. I mean, you're assuming that the wizard won't have immunity to negative levels, and he probably will. If you can get within striking distance of a wizard, why not just save or die him? There's this nifty spell called mummify from sandstorm. It's a fortitude save or die, it has a minor damage/debuff effect if you fail, and it doesn't have the death subtype, so immunity is tricky. You could also skip the save, and go with death by thorns or something. If you know his alignment, and can pump your caster level enough, you could even go with something like word of balance/leonal's roar. That'd maybe do it.

[TuggyNE]

In this case, the best idea I can think of is shapeshift into flea sized wraith with the level 9 spell. Energy drain the wizard from the inside to your heart's content. Hope he loses the 9th level spell slot from negative levels he had shapechange prepared in before he thinks to shapechange himself.

Besides energy drain immunity, this also seems to have the problem that there aren't any flea-sized wraith stats around, nor indeed anything else that is small enough and can energy drain. So, yeah, I dunno if there's much low-hanging fruit here.


It's a fortitude save or die, it has a minor damage/debuff effect if you fail, and it doesn't have the death subtype, so immunity is tricky.

Death descriptor, not subtype. Also, good to know about.

[eggynack]

Death descriptor, not subtype. Also, good to know about.
Really? I wonder how long I've been doing that one wrong. Anyways, it's now changed in the ever growing druid handbook (now at 33,690 words), so at least some good came out of it. In any case druids have a surprisingly wide variety of save or die/loses that I didn't really consider before. The weirdest one so far's gotta be dire hunger (SpC, 65), which gives your target a bite attack for rounds/level, which they're forced to use on the creature that's nearest by. It's 5th level, so it seems like decent competition for baleful polymorph.

[Talya]

the ever growing druid handbook (now at 33,690 words)

There's a more current druid handbook than the 2008 one on Brilliant Gameologists?

Must link!

[eggynack]

There's a more current druid handbook than the 2008 one on Brilliant Gameologists?

Must link!
Nah, I mean I'm working on one. It grows daily by my hand. There's still a ways to go though, because druids are frigging dense.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nah, I mean I'm working on one. It grows daily by my hand. There's still a ways to go though, because druids are frigging dense.

Sound's like my guide to wizards.

[eggynack]

Sound's like my guide to wizards.
Yeah, such is its nature. Lengthening day by day, generally in tiny several hundred word intervals, until there is presumably some sort of call from on high saying that it's done. My initial length estimate put it at at least 50 K, so as to hit random NaNoWriMo novel standards, but there's a good chance that it'll extend longer than that.

[Angelalex242]

Well, the point of being a flea is preventing the wizard from getting line of sight. If the wizard can't see you (Perception isn't a class skill for wizards), he can't target you.

So a flea sized wraith inside the wizard is one idea...

But a diminutive creature (like a rat) would also fit in someone's stomach. The trick then is figuring out how to drastically increase the rat's DPS, since the wizard has few ways to get rid of you clawing and biting his internal organs to death.

[ahenobarbi]

But a diminutive creature (like a rat) would also fit in someone's stomach. The trick then is figuring out how to drastically increase the rat's DPS, since the wizard has few ways to get rid of you clawing and biting his internal organs to death.

Any teleportation would work.

[Talya]

Since you're inverting the "Swallow Whole" monster ability to use against the thing you're inside, I have to wonder...

If the wizard you teleported inside cuts you out with a dagger, will "muscular action close the hole"?

(One of D&D's many silly ideas.)

[ahenobarbi]

Since you're inverting the "Swallow Whole" monster ability to use against the thing you're inside, I have to wonder...

If the wizard you teleported inside cuts you out with a dagger, will "muscular action close the hole"?

(One of D&D's many silly ideas.)

I meant to use teleportation to get away from the thing inside you.

[Pickford]

In this case, the best idea I can think of is shapeshift into flea sized wraith with the level 9 spell. Energy drain the wizard from the inside to your heart's content. Hope he loses the 9th level spell slot from negative levels he had shapechange prepared in before he thinks to shapechange himself.

Again, not possible.


You can become any creature you're familiar with

Unless you happen to know of a flea-sized wraith in this game. I don't, they happen to be defined as (bolded to get the point across):


A wraith is about as tall as a human

edit: Boo immediate actioned.

[JaronK]

At the end of the day, Druids and Wizards both have swarms of tricks so powerful that most DMs wouldn't allow them, so both play at the max power level for pretty much any given table. Whatever the strongest thing the DM allows is, that's what they can do.

So they're basically equivalent.

JaronK

[hymer]

Unless of course you have a DM like me who hates wizards and loves druids.

[Vortenger]

Fair enough I suppose. Although barring maybe tainted scholar, I don't know of any wizard prestige classes that match planar shepherd on the cheese scale.

Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Shadowcraft Mage...

[JaronK]

Everyone always forgets Runesmith on that list. Spell Like True Creation is a bit over the top! So is Spell Like Favorable Sacrifice, but Tainted Sorcerers and Tainted Scholars can pull that particular trick off too. Speaking of which, Tainted Sorcerers are even nastier than Tainted Scholars.

JaronK

[Angelalex242]

Oh, I'm sure there's a way to make an individual wraith flea sized, and from then on, you know what one looks like. With all the crap magic can do in this game, shrinking a wraith is pretty trivial.

[Invader]

Oh, I'm sure y to make an individual wraith flea sized, and from then on, you know what one looks like. With all the crap magic can do in this game, shrinking a wraith is pretty trivial.

But on the same hand it's trivial to get the wraith out of you.

What level do Druids get Wildshape fine?

[Norin]

First you need to be able to wildshape huge, then be epic and you can get the epic feat Wild Shape Diminutive.

Then you can go for the Wild Shape Fine epic feat.

So it's not exactly "easy".

[Talya]

You have better things to do than find your way into a wizard's stomach at epic levels. Really, once epic spellcasting is online, wizards and druids both get access to the same completely broken crap. The druid just has a better (and mostly irrelevant) chassis to cast them from.

[TuggyNE]

Oh, I'm sure there's a way to make an individual wraith flea sized, and from then on, you know what one looks like. With all the crap magic can do in this game, shrinking a wraith is pretty trivial.

I'm not convinced of the first premise, and I know for sure the second does not work; you can't merely turn into "any old random templated creature with seventeen spells active on it that you saw once", you turn into published creatures, with the stats they're published as having. And that much size shrinking would undoubtedly require both templates and spells.


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.
This spell functions like alter self…
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

[Chronos]

Getting a fine wraith is no problem: You give it levels in Wu Jen, and have it cast Minute Form. Still won't let you shapechange into one, though.