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Kaww
2013-10-27, 04:48 AM
Well, I can't believe this actually happened to me. A DM I've been playing with for three years has made me angry. I'll start from the top:

A week or two ago we were playing 7 wonders and all of a sudden he said "Guys are you for DND?" The five of us agreed and made five chars. (Paladin, Warlock, Dragon shaman/Fighter, DFA and a bard)

Now I know this is far from ideal, but I expected I (the paladin) would have wands of CLW and the bard has taken healing hymn. DM has heard this, but made no effort to warn us that we won't see a wand/scroll until the end of the game.

This was not a problem. We start the campaign on an island turned into a probing ground by a mad noble to find his successor. We realize that our total ranks in survival are 0. We hire a ranger and go straight into the toughest dungeon of doom meeting a pair of paladins and their squires on the way. Fighter, paladins and I have to leave our armors outside because we would drown in many deep hole filled with water that were abundant in this very slippery cave(squires are guarding them). Somehow, after two hour's walk we kill the huge vampire bat inside the cave and level up.

All is great, the ranger is nowhere to be found. He killed a squire and fled with our armors. We manage to get out, catch up with the ranger, kill him and get our equipment back.

Ranger was not evil.

With the loot I increased my AC from 20 to 25. We rested in the island's haven for a day, found a neutral good druid and went onward towards the second most dangerous dungeon.

The druids leads us into a poisonous dungeon and our warlock contracts a disease 2d4 damage to all stats. Druid can't cast remove disease for some reason. He leads our bard up the tree with a large spider that almost eats her.

The next day we come across a corpse of another contestant and find a Cloak of resistance +2 and decide we want to give it to our druid. He runs away after casting remove disease on our half dead warlock.

I should point out by now that both DFA and I have sense motive 10.

We go to the second toughest dungeon, remember we beat the most dangerous one, it's guarded by a knight we fight him and he has the following: 4 attacks with a +5 keen greatsword, each of those attacks is +25 to hit with 2d6+16 damage. He has 200 hp, SR 16, DR 10/- and 29 AC and we are level 5!!!:smallfurious::smallfurious:

We actually beat him with DFA's slow invocation and Tashas's hideous laughter.

We rest a day and enter a dungeon filled with large humanoid snakes. How tough can they be, right? Well, AC 20, attack +12 and 1d8+10 damage of course and there's dozen of them. We run past them and the small ones casting lightning at will for 6d6 damage each losing only some 50 hp total. Not bad I know, but then a wandering statue happens. +15 attack and 1d10+15 damage with two slams per round.



Long story short. Druids without charisma beat my sense motive random snakes do 15 damage and hit almost every time, disease deals 2d4 damage to all stats, NG NPCs are poisoning us, stealing and lying to us.

I feel cheated. Am I?

hymer
2013-10-27, 05:04 AM
Probably yes. Seems the DM didn't really care for the rules, and so made up his own as he went along. Also railroading, both in forcing you to hold the idiot ball and in surviving encounters he shouledn't have set you up against. How did you know these NPCs' and monsters' stats, by the way?
It is worth noting that there are possible explanations for a lot of things. The ranger could have been magically compelled, or in desperate straits to acquire two pieces of armour. The druid with the negative charisma might have been something entirely different, or using magic to disguise his intentions.

How do the other players feel?

Kaww
2013-10-27, 05:23 AM
Attacks, damage and AC we usually guess within a round and when a person rolls a d8, gets a 5 and says 15 damage it doesn't take a genius. Similar for just about everything else hp was an estimation, but it was about 180 to 220 hp based on how hard we hit the black knight.

Also, we and everyone else on the island is limited with: no real pots, no scrolls, nor wands.

NichG
2013-10-27, 05:39 AM
As crazy as some of the numbers sound e.g. with respect to the knight guarding the dungeon, the thing is, you managed to beat him. So, at the end of the day, he was an appropriate challenge for your group either due to the DM's inability to run him effectively or your group's high degree of ability to optimize and play effectively.

Throughout all of the scenarios you present, it sounds like though things have gone wrong, your party is still basically surviving and coming out ahead.

Now, the tendency of friendly NPCs to betray you at a moment's chance is a bit more of an obnoxious move on the DM's part, mostly because it means you can't really develop any sort of connections with the NPCs in the world - you'll always be suspecting betrayal, and perhaps rightly so.

RochtheCrusher
2013-10-27, 06:00 AM
So, I'm somewhat confused about the situation regarding this island... was everyone and everything there, including you, dumped there against their will and forced to fight to the death, winner gets riches, loser gets dead? Much like Hunger Games, or a prison where everyone is assumed to be out to shank you?

If so, then your DM could have an argument for why the people betraying you aren't Evil. Looking out for number 1 where the only other option you can see is death? Well, that's Neutral, not Evil. A Good character should feel obligated to act somewhat honorable about it, but everybody else? Well, you whack them before they're in a position to whack you. You can apologize to the gods once you're out of danger.

In such a situation, your money would also mean precisely nothing. If you offer a guy money he can't spend to guard your back, you deserve to get stabbed. He owes you nothing and you've advertised that you're a fool.

If there is no such external pressure, though? I have no idea what he's up to.

Kaww
2013-10-27, 06:42 AM
So, at the end of the day, he was an appropriate challenge for your group either due to the DM's inability to run him effectively or your group's high degree of ability to optimize and play effectively.


Somehow he had a will save less than 6 and just laughed from round 4, when bard finally managed to get through his SR. He crited twice and left both of us frontliners in single digits.

@ RochtheCrusher: I didn't want to digress with the starting setup. We all (about 10.000 adventurers, craftsmen and other people) paid 100 gp to enter the competition to become his heirs. There is an official list of people trying to win and there are people that just want a share of the loot and maybe the final treasure. So both henchmen were under verbal contract to get (5% and 10% respectfully) of all our earnings, including the final reward.

No external pressure and because we killed the vampire bat we were considered top candidates for successors, thus the NG druid joined us.

Slipperychicken
2013-10-27, 03:18 PM
Have you tried talking to him about it? He seems like a bad DM to me. Was he better with the other system?


@Sense motive: Many DMs I've played with believe that players must actively declare that you roll Sense Motive, and you are otherwise expected to believe what NPCs say. This is not true -he should either notify you when you are to roll Sense Motive, or else secretly roll it himself. The belief is widely held however, and I expect that your DM shares it.

@Wands: Did you ask him "Will my character have access to CLW wands in this game?"

@Sir Meatshield: DMs have told me at times that they simply do not track boss hit points, simply declaring their deaths only when the PCs have "had enough". I don't like this one bit, and think it is highly unfair.

@Ranger. I have to lay some blame at your feet on this one. Never let an NPC hold your stuff. If it leaves your inventory, it's as good as gone. Many murderhobos understand this. Bear in mind that stealing isn't necessarily Evil*, and there are a variety of countermeasures which make Evil characters appear Neutral. I doubt your DM was using these however.

*If the PCs can murder people for their stuff and still be Good, then NPCs should too.

NichG
2013-10-27, 04:14 PM
Somehow he had a will save less than 6 and just laughed from round 4, when bard finally managed to get through his SR. He crited twice and left both of us frontliners in single digits.


Sounds like he could have been a Lv16 fighter with most of his WBL poured into his weapon, if he was even at WBL. That'd give him a base Will saves of +5 and ~170hp if he put a few levelup points to pump hitpoints: 18 Con, Improved Toughness. With Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, his sword, and 20 Strength, he'd be hitting at +27 and doing 2d6+13 damage. Maybe add Greater Weapon Focus and burn a bit of Power attack to make the numbers line up.

So basically a poorly geared Lv16 Tier 5 character. If one of you had Fly and a bow they might've been able to solo the guy.

Slipperychicken
2013-10-27, 08:56 PM
So basically a poorly geared Lv16 Tier 5 character. If one of you had Fly and a bow they might've been able to solo the guy.

Most level 5 characters do not have convenient access to flight. Levitate could have been a possibility (still burning precious resources on a scroll or spell known though), but then the Fighter just goes after your friends instead, or retreats until the spell runs out, since levitate doesn't give you horizontal movement.


If these guys were taking down opponents with those numbers at level 5, I'd say they're either doing very well for themselves, or the DM is going very easy on them in terms of tactics.

Also, I just read the island is full of presumably-hostile contestants vying for a lavish reward, so you (the OP) definitely should have been more wary of your NPC 'buddies'. Detect Evil is a useful tool, but it's far from perfect. Remember that 'neutral' does not mean 'friendly'.

NichG
2013-10-27, 09:21 PM
Most level 5 characters do not have convenient access to flight. Levitate could have been a possibility (still burning precious resources on a scroll or spell known though), but then the Fighter just goes after your friends instead, or retreats until the spell runs out, since levitate doesn't give you horizontal movement.

If these guys were taking down opponents with those numbers at level 5, I'd say they're either doing very well for themselves, or the DM is going very easy on them in terms of tactics.


Well yeah, I think that's clear. But I do think that things would have gone very differently if it had been e.g. a Lv16 Wizard instead of a Lv16 Fighter despite them formally having the same CR. Fighter levels aren't that much better than monster HD, which would put a Lv16 Fighter somewhere in the CR 8-10 range (e.g. compare that knight with an Ogre, who does 2d8+7 damage, is ECL 6, and is CR 3)

IME, its a pretty standard DM technique to use higher levels in place of gear/build optimization/smart tactics for enemies, because it resolves various problems respectively: that fighting humanoids tends to make the PCs over-geared, optimizing enemies takes a lot of prep time compared to how long they're on screen, and that the DM is too distracted with keeping track not only of enemy actions but player ones as well to spend as much mental energy on enemy tactics as the players can spend on their own (not to mention lack of familiarity with their enemy builds, compared to players who have been playing the same character all campaign long). Also, sometimes the DM just isn't very good at tactics :)

So when I see something with exaggerated numbers, I just tend to assume that if the party survived it and won its the DM covering one of those various deficiencies/issues and move on. If it killed a few PCs, TPK'd the group, or required the intervention of a DMPC then that's when I tend to get upset about it.

Kaww
2013-10-28, 04:18 PM
Have you tried talking to him about it? He seems like a bad DM to me. Was he better with the other system?


@Sense motive: Many DMs I've played with believe that players must actively declare that you roll Sense Motive, and you are otherwise expected to believe what NPCs say. This is not true -he should either notify you when you are to roll Sense Motive, or else secretly roll it himself. The belief is widely held however, and I expect that your DM shares it.

@Wands: Did you ask him "Will my character have access to CLW wands in this game?"

@Sir Meatshield: DMs have told me at times that they simply do not track boss hit points, simply declaring their deaths only when the PCs have "had enough". I don't like this one bit, and think it is highly unfair.

@Ranger. I have to lay some blame at your feet on this one. Never let an NPC hold your stuff. If it leaves your inventory, it's as good as gone. Many murderhobos understand this. Bear in mind that stealing isn't necessarily Evil*, and there are a variety of countermeasures which make Evil characters appear Neutral. I doubt your DM was using these however.

*If the PCs can murder people for their stuff and still be Good, then NPCs should too.

You could be right regarding the sense motive and no, I still haven't talked with him, but I'm planing to.

Ranger killed an innocent person to steal. This is an evil act, as described in PHB pg 103. We always pack so much gear that it's quite common that we leave some of our supplies back at the tavern/village/castle. Counter measures without magical items on a level 4 ranger? Rly?

We don't murder people just to take their stuff; if a DM allows this, well, let's just say I don't find him the brightest cookie in the jar. ;)

Wands - no and I never will. If we started asking the required questions regarding our build plans (which were nonexistent at the time) when he said "make characters in 15 minutes" it would have taken a day.



So basically a poorly geared Lv16 Tier 5 character. If one of you had Fly and a bow they might've been able to solo the guy.

You saw the classes we had 0 airforce at our level, no wands, scrolls , nor pots.



If these guys were taking down opponents with those numbers at level 5, I'd say they're either doing very well for themselves, or the DM is going very easy on them in terms of tactics.

Also, I just read the island is full of presumably-hostile contestants vying for a lavish reward, so you (the OP) definitely should have been more wary of your NPC 'buddies'. Detect Evil is a useful tool, but it's far from perfect. Remember that 'neutral' does not mean 'friendly'.

We were the top candidates for the position of heir. Those that have not signed in as contestants can't win, only get a share. The druid stole an item whose cost is 4000 instead of sticking with us and winning 20000. And he was Good, not Neutral.

As for us doing well for ourselves... We always do well for ourselves, that's why the numbers are so mindbending. We are veteran players, carrying all those mundane items people forget in at least two backpacks, in case one burns, or is stolen, or eaten.

The thing that frustrated me was the fact that the whole island got a +5 attack and +10 damage once we killed that vampire. If the players beat the toughest challenge first it's because they chose to do so. To make it a joke dungeon after it's done is really very, very far from cool.




So when I see something with exaggerated numbers, I just tend to assume that if the party survived it and won its the DM covering one of those various deficiencies/issues and move on. If it killed a few PCs, TPK'd the group, or required the intervention of a DMPC then that's when I tend to get upset about it.

The golem did kill a PC - me. The snakes that came after the golem took two more down. ;)

Delwugor
2013-10-29, 08:55 AM
@ RochtheCrusher: I didn't want to digress with the starting setup. We all (about 10.000 adventurers, craftsmen and other people) paid 100 gp to enter the competition to become his heirs. There is an official list of people trying to win and there are people that just want a share of the loot and maybe the final treasure. So both henchmen were under verbal contract to get (5% and 10% respectfully) of all our earnings, including the final reward.
So you paid your money and take your chances. I have no problem with that.


No external pressure and because we killed the vampire bat we were considered top candidates for successors, thus the NG druid joined us.
And now you are to the Top Targets! The 5th place group is not going to boldly attack the top combat dogs, they are going to be sneaky and attempt to outwit and betray you to win. At least that is the way I would run it.

Though I wouldn't be thrilled by a Hunger Games knock off campaign, I am not seeing any serious problems. The only thing is I would never give a 5th level party a chance to get ahold of a +5 sword.

Kaww
2013-10-29, 10:29 AM
And now you are to the Top Targets! The 5th place group is not going to boldly attack the top combat dogs, they are going to be sneaky and attempt to outwit and betray you to win. At least that is the way I would run it.


So they hired a NG non contestant druid to poison us instead of winning with us? How does that make sense?

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-10-29, 10:31 AM
Have you tried talking to him about it? He seems like a bad DM to me. Was he better with the other system?

7 Wonders is a card game, not an RPG system. :smallsmile:

Delwugor
2013-10-29, 12:43 PM
So they hired a NG non contestant druid to poison us instead of winning with us? How does that make sense?
Hopefully he used a natural poison!

As you wrote, I see the objective of the campaign is to win against competition. The competition will use dirty and underhanded tactics to win. You playing as a Palidin may not, but I'd recommend paying attention to the fact that others will.

I will avoid comments on NG since that just leads to alignment debates, there are plenty of those here.

In general it sounds like you are not expecting nor wanting a campaign like what he is running. The only good solution is to talk it out with him.

Slipperychicken
2013-10-29, 01:21 PM
We were the top candidates for the position of heir. Those that have not signed in as contestants can't win, only get a share. The druid stole an item whose cost is 4000 instead of sticking with us and winning 20000. And he was Good, not Neutral.
)

With so many thousands of opponents, your victory is far from guaranteed in-character. Stealing that item for 4k (or more accurately fencing it for 2k) probably had a much better risk/reward ratio than trying to best ten thousand warriors for 20k. It's the kind of thing I could see a PC getting away with if he had dependents (like family, wives, children, orphans, etc) to maintain.


Good characters are generally allowed to steal stuff and murder people (especially enemies) without bonking their alignment, especially if they have some justification like "boo hoo my village died", "I gotta protect the forest lol", or "Imma do the greater good". I've seen Good-aligned thieves, assassins, and mercenaries on occasion, and while you should be more wary of NPCs, my experience (and the frequency of betrayals) leads me to believe your DM is being something of a ****bag and/or has a much different approach to alignment.

Maybe the Druid was a House Elf (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/House-elf), and presenting him with clothes freed him from servitude.


7 Wonders is a card game, not an RPG system. :smallsmile:

Yeah, I admit that I lack ranks in Knowledge (Card Games). The name sounds kind of like an obscure indie RPG, though.