Magicians and dabblers

[Naomi Li]

There are many methods of channeling the raw power of magic, and there are several different ways to categorize or list them. The following is what my oracle believes. (And I at least partially agree with her)

The most magical are those that do not need to use any preparation period tricks. Instead, they know a spell (or spell-like ability) and can use it whenever they want to. The warlock is a famous example of this. Building up the magical regeneration to actually cast these abilities at will likely takes a great amount of their time and helps explain why they tend to know far fewer than spontaneous casters.

The next most magically potent are those that do make use of a preparation period but do not need to assign them particular spells. Spontaneous casters have an excellent combination of versatility and reliability and are my personal favourite. They have excellent spell reserves and can apply them to any spell they know and essentially craft the spell to be cast in under three seconds for most circumstances. It requires great skill and understanding to be able to forge a spell in such a short period of time, and spontaneous casters display this in bounds. This category includes sorcerers, bards, oracles, and many more.

Next are the dabblers. Those who never truly learn a single spell, and instead craft a series of mental scrolls in their head to be used whenever over a period of at least several minutes and more likely an hour. They have excellent versatility but horrible reliability. I am speaking, of course, of preparatory spellcasters like wizards, clerics, druids, and rangers. Most of them make up for this lack of ability by focusing on skills, physical combat, or whatever and just reinforcing that with spells, but wizards can hardly accomplish anything once they have run out of mental scrolls for the situation. After that, they're about as capable as a commoner. Sure, they can make use of magic items to help mitigate this deficit, but so can everyone else with the wealth they're throwing around.

Finally, there are those with a few spell-like abilities they get a few shots of every day, but never really develop. This magical knack is interesting and useful, but is rarely developed into anything truly impressive.

[Emperor Tippy]

And then the Wizard smirked and snapped his fingers. A moment later a plan so complex that only the minds of a bare handful of entities in all of creation could ever even hope to unravel it and a thousand years in the making came crashing home with finality.

The armies of Hell and the Abyss found themselves suddenly gutted and thrown into chaos as more than a hundred billion of their most powerful members found themselves bound in unbreakable chains while tens of billions of warlock's and sorcerer's suddenly found themselves dead and with their souls trapped with no chance for them to even process what had happened.

The Demon Lords fell one after the other and simultaneously as within minutes of their armies being gutted they found strike teams a thousand times more powerful than then beating and capturing them before erasing the very possibility that they could even exist from reality and new proxies that were loyal to the wizard claiming their realm's.

The Devil's fell as fast as even Asmodeus found that he was no match for the combined power of a hundred greater deities.

A thousand years of planning came to fruition in under an hour and at the end of that hour there was one being who ruled the multiverse, and he was a wizard.

[Naomi Li]

So, wizards are so pathetic they need bad self-insert fanfiction to console themselves? :P

Magic is powerful, of course, and wizards are okay in civilian occupations. But if they're truly surprised by a situation, their lack of reliability is liable to get them and those around them killed. (Plus, their experiments often go horribly wrong and get themselves and a bunch of people around them killed. It's practically a writing tradition to make plots start because some foolish wizard didn't observe proper protocol)

[Hyena]

I was going to write a post about power of the wizards, but then I saw Tippy here. He's got it.

[Chronos]

Note that the premise was not who's most powerful, but who's more magical. And you can make a good case that warlocks and sorcerers are, in fact, more magical than wizards.

[Naomi Li]

Remember, though, that wizards KNOW only one spell without spending feats or prestige class levels. That spell is the "read magic" cantrip. Without a spellbook to help them scribe their mental scrolls, they're powerless. When they run out of spells for a sitaution (which can happen very quickly), they're powerless. If the universe doesn't cater to the wizard or said wizard doesn't rely on huge numbers of allies/minions, that wizard will die. Not to some massive big bad that said wizard has spent fifty divinations on, but some random antagonist that got lucky to hit the wizard where said wizard wasn't prepared.

Wizards are powerful because magic is mighty. Sorcerers get that same magic as wizards do (especially in Pathfinder, where wizards can no longer copy off of other spell lists) and, despite slightly delayed casting, are flat out better at dealing with a broad range of situations any time. While a bluff or other source of misinformation can render a wizard neutralized, a sorcerer will lose very little time in adapting to the new situation. They know their magic instead of just having the capability of making use of it.

[Emperor Tippy]

So, wizards are so pathetic they need bad self-insert fanfiction to console themselves? :P

Magic is powerful, of course, and wizards are okay in civilian occupations. But if they're truly surprised by a situation, their lack of reliability is liable to get them and those around them killed. (Plus, their experiments often go horribly wrong and get themselves and a bunch of people around them killed. It's practically a writing tradition to make plots start because some foolish wizard didn't observe proper protocol)

If a Wizard is surprised then he is a bad wizard, that doesn't mean that the wizard will die though.

Immortality can be had for three wizard spells that each need only be cast once, ever. Absolute immunity to all magic cast by anyone but the wizard is one 4th level spell every 2 days.

The thing is, it's not in character for a Sorcerer to develop a plan to combine a dozen or more different spells in a specific order to achieve real ultimate power; it is for a wizard. Pretty much the defining personality trait of wizards is that they cheat and exploit the loophole.


Remember, though, that wizards KNOW only one spell without spending feats or prestige class levels. That spell is the "read magic" cantrip. Without a spellbook to help them scribe their mental scrolls, they're powerless.
Eidetic Spellcaster. Archmage with Shapechange made an SLA. Use, Zodar form, Wish up a Blessed Book filled with the spells you want. Discard as you can just get another one tomorrow.


When they run out of spells for a sitaution (which can happen very quickly), they're powerless. If the universe doesn't cater to the wizard or said wizard doesn't rely on huge numbers of allies/minions, that wizard will die. Not to some massive big bad that said wizard has spent fifty divinations on, but some random antagonist that got lucky to hit the wizard where said wizard wasn't prepared.
If luck can kill a high level wizard then the wizard is a fool who is better off dead.


Wizards are powerful because magic is mighty. Sorcerers get that same magic as wizards do and, despite slightly delayed casting, are flat out better at dealing with a broad range of situations any time. While a bluff or other source of misinformation can render a wizard neutralized, a sorcerer will lose very little time in adapting to the new situation. They know their magic instead of just having the capability of making use of it.
A wizard can change every single spell that he has prepared and every single feat that he has taken with the cost of a single 9th level spell slot.

And having to adapt to your foes means that your plans, defenses, and contingencies were flawed. Do better next time.


(especially in Pathfinder, where wizards can no longer copy off of other spell lists)
Where in the world did you get the idea that that was possible in 3.5? A wizard can generally only cast a spell that is on the Wizard spell list (although there exist a few ways to get other spells onto a specific wizards spell list).

[ben-zayb]

So dabbling with magic means getting complete access to a broader vertical and horizontal range of power for an (arguably) limited amount of time, while actual magicians gets to wield puny magic all day?

Better be a dabbler then. I'll just hope to my lucky star I'd nab myself some reserve spell to be a better magician and get the same puny magic all day.

[Naomi Li]

They're dabblers in the sense that they never bother really learning how to use their spells without an instructions book. They assemble their spells from kits, while sorcerers KNOW their magic and can create modified forms whenever the situation calls for it.

As for "surprised wizard is bad wizard", that's absolutely ridiculous. No mortal (or even immortal in the D&D universe) can possibly know everything that is happening, much less understand it and properly prepare for it all. And applying stereotypes of "wizards make proper exploitive use of the magic avaialble while sorcerers use it in a wasteful and straightforward way" is silly. There's no reason for it, especially since sorcerers have a better understanding of how their magic actually functions than wizards do.

You seem to be making use of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, only admitting somebody is a "real wizard" if they combine all of these personality traits that supposedly makes them utterly indestructible despite it being nothing more than a spellcasting method with some additional skills and abilities trained in.

As for "wizards make use of other spell lists", mostly people talking about wizards getting access to cure light wounds from the bard spell list and other things. In at least some tables for 3.5, it is allowed. What the RAW is for 3.5 I am unsure as I haven't read the relevant books for a while.

Anyway, there's no shame in being a dabbler. I'm just never going to rely on you being able to handle a situation that was unexpected and will prefer travelling with a sorcerer. (Sage wildblood variant, perhaps, to better supplement my oracular abilities)

[ben-zayb]

They're dabblers in the sense that they never bother really learning how to use their spells without an instructions book. They assemble their spells from kits, while sorcerers KNOW their magic and can create modified forms whenever the situation calls for it.
Pray tell. How do these lowly divine dabblers assemble their spells from Kits? Last time I checked, it was "Whatever the hell accomplishes what you want today", vs the great sorcerer's "Welp. Same old, same old."

Anyway, there's no shame in being a dabbler. I'm just never going to rely on you being able to handle a situation that was unexpected and will prefer travelling with a sorcerer. (Sage wildblood variant, perhaps, to better supplement my oracular abilities)Oh, why use the impure sorcerer then? If you're so averse to limited harnessing of magic, why not go for the most magixal class? The almighty warlock could make 10d6 all day, you know, along some stuff that are mostly replicated with noncustom magic items.

[Hyena]

No mortal (or even immortal in the D&D universe) can possibly know everything that is happening, much less understand it and properly prepare for it all.
Divination school. Mirror-mirror on the wall, who's the most omnisentient spellcaster of all?

[Lord Haart]

A thousand years of planning came to fruition in under an hour and at the end of that hour there was one being who ruled the multiverse, and he was a wizard.

And then the StP Erudite undid it all and the Archivist remade the Multiverse in his own Divine image. The end.

Seriously, we all know why wizards are better than sorcs, yadda-yadda; was there a good essay comparing a wizard and an equally paranoid and prepared archivist?


Divination school. Mirror-mirror on the wall, who's the most omnisentient spellcaster of all?
Why, the Omniscificer, of course!

[Naomi Li]

Warlocks are more magical, sure, but they've traded out so much versatility that they're not as useful for my needs. (Plus, in Pathfinder they're third party) Besides, "more magical" doesn't mean "better".

As for "assemble from kits" for divine preparatory casters: They order the completed product from their divine ally who assembles it from a kit for them. However, their focus isn't "magic is my only useful tool" but instead "magic is a very useful tool that supplements and compliments what I can already do".

Divination spells have three major weaknesses.
One: They all take time to cast.
Two: They only tell you what you ask. (They're like intellectus rather than omniscience for the Dresdenverse fans)
Three: They're fallible, especially if they involve the future.

[Emperor Tippy]

As for "surprised wizard is bad wizard", that's absolutely ridiculous. No mortal (or even immortal in the D&D universe) can possibly know everything that is happening, much less understand it and properly prepare for it all.
The odd edge case is an irrelevance. If a wizard is caught unprepared for a given situation then 99.99% of the time it means that the wizard was stupid.


And applying stereotypes of "wizards make proper exploitive use of the magic avaialble while sorcerers use it in a wasteful and straightforward way" is silly.
Um no it's not. See that little thing called the Intelligence score? Well Wizard's have that as their primary stat. At level 20 it is going to be 30+ and can potentially be 40+. Otherwise known as smarter than most gods. What does intelligence govern? Planning. Combined with superhuman Wisdom (which the wizard can and should use his magic to get) and he doesn't do bad plans or stupidity.

Sorcerer's, they can be dumber than a rock and still use their magic. Their intelligence is utterly irrelevant to their ability. They just will reality to bend and it does.


There's no reason for it, especially since sorcerers have a better understanding of how their magic actually functions than wizards do.
Um no they don't. All else being equal and with identical stat lines except the Wizard gets the high Int while the Sorcerer get's the high Charisma, the wizard will have a superior understanding of magic as Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana are both governed by Intelligence (this is ignoring that the wizard has more skill points to spend as well).


You seem to be making use of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, only admitting somebody is a "real wizard" if they combine all of these personality traits that supposedly makes them utterly indestructible despite it being nothing more than a spellcasting method with some additional skills and abilities trained in.
Premise 1: Wizard's must be smart. To cast a 9th level spell requires that you are as smart as the smartest real life humans to have ever lived. Most wizards who can cast 9th level spells are well beyond this point and often have intelligence scores that rival deities.

Premise 2: Wizard's that have reached high levels have powerful enemies and rivals.

Premise 3: Wizard's like to live and survive the attentions of their enemies and rivals.

What do those three things means? That any high level wizard worth the name is the next best thing to indestructible simply because the magic at their command allows for them to be so and they have the need to be so protected while having the brains to realize what they need to do to gain such protection.

Even the shortbus wizards of FR fluff are like this. Pretty much every high level FR wizard is the next best thing to impossible to kill without very involved and convoluted circumstances.


As for "wizards make use of other spell lists", mostly people talking about wizards getting access to cure light wounds from the bard spell list and other things. In at least some tables for 3.5, it is allowed. What the RAW is for 3.5 I am unsure as I haven't read the relevant books for a while.
Pretty much no one talks about that because it isn't rules legal.


Anyway, there's no shame in being a dabbler. I'm just never going to rely on you being able to handle a situation that was unexpected and will prefer travelling with a sorcerer. (Sage wildblood variant, perhaps, to better supplement my oracular abilities)
Again, you do realize that a wizard can change their entire list of currently prepared spells as a standard action and that in three rounds said wizard can get any Sor/Wiz spells that they want into their spell book before having the ones that they want prepared, right?

A strict rule reading of an Ancestral Relic Runestaff Sorcerer is the only way that said Sorcerer could provide similar versatility.

Oh yes, and that said wizard regains a 5th level or lower expended spell slot every single round while a Sorcerer can't do anything similar.

[Naomi Li]

Intelligence score isn't nearly as important as wisdom when it comes to making plans that will actually work. Sure, having a really high intelligence score can allow you to make really amazing plans that would have amazing payoff if they pull it off... but without the wisdom to verify the premises it will probably fail and quite possibly get themselves and everyone around them killed. (And unless you're exploiting very specific builds that people in-universe would have little reason to do or are throwing around ninth level spells already, magic can't really help with this that much) Being geniuses doesn't stop them from being fools, and their intelligence can easily allow them to get into much deeper trouble. Charisma is also exceptionally important for things like developing allies, convincing planar bound creatures to go along with what you want, and essentially getting through life without isolation from others or using (exceptionally unethical) charms as a required crutch.

And sure, wizards have a better intellectual understanding of their spells. I'm not contesting that. Sorcerers know THEIR spells, though, and exactly how they work, unless you want to go with "nobody knows anything unless their knowledge skills say they do, like identifying their own species".

Premise 1: Rejected, as a wizard needs nothing more than intelligence 10 to use the class, or intelligence 11 to cast first level spells without magical assistance. "Wizards capable of casting 9th level spells" is not what is being discussed, but instead "wizards".
Premise 2: Accepted, as their lack of social skills, arrogance, and standard wizardly practices are almost guaranteed to get a lot of people wanting them dead, tortured, or otherwise have vengeance taken out on them.
Premise 3: Accepted, with the caveat that arrogance can easily blind them to the very real danger they're in.

ANY high level character should be very difficult to kill, because they've managed to make it as far as they have doing the things they do. Either through inventiveness, reliable allies, huge numbers of magical abilities, being underestimated, whatever, they have lived through a lot. Killing them tends to be exceptionally difficult.

I am fairly sure any of those "replace entire list of prepared spells in seconds" is only possible in some versions of D&D, unlikely to be possible for most wizards, and still only as good as their current understanding of the problem.

[Feint's End]

As Tippy already said Wizards comprehend magic much better than Sorcerors because they actually learn it. They learn how it works and how you can tap into reality and shape it to your will. Sorcerors on the opposite just cast them ... they don't need to know how it works since they can just do it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of spontaneus casters but saying that sorcerors have a better understanding on spells and magic than wizards is just plain false. You can be the most stupid sorceror in the world and think the world is flat and still be able to cast your spells. How? Who knows! But the magical lights coming out of your fingers are so beautiful.

Saying that sorcerors are "more" (whatever that means) magical might be true since they are actually born with the ability to cast spells. Wizards are in and of themselves not really magical since they just learn how to manipulate something that is outside their body (see Faerun and the web). You could actually argue that sorcerors aren't magical neither since they also just manipulate something outside their body ... they just got an innate talent for it.

See ...that's why I love psionics. They are the only form of "casters" who actually accomplish things with their power coming from within (I don't count Incarnum as casters here).

[Red Fel]

Just so that we're 100% clear, this is a debate of a non-RAW fluff interpretation of someone's personal headcanon over which spellcasting class is the most magical, a subject which has no impact on anything, mechanically or thematically, outside of the aforementioned headcanon.


Intelligence score isn't nearly as important as wisdom when it comes to making plans that will actually work. Sure, having a really high intelligence score can allow you to make really amazing plans that would have amazing payoff if they pull it off... but without the wisdom to verify the premises it will probably fail and quite possibly get themselves and everyone around them killed. (And unless you're exploiting very specific builds that people in-universe would have little reason to do or are throwing around ninth level spells already, magic can't really help with this that much) Being geniuses doesn't stop them from being fools, and their intelligence can easily allow them to get into much deeper trouble. Charisma is also exceptionally important for things like developing allies, convincing planar bound creatures to go along with what you want, and essentially getting through life without isolation from others or using (exceptionally unethical) charms as a required crutch.

And sure, wizards have a better intellectual understanding of their spells. I'm not contesting that. Sorcerers know THEIR spells, though, and exactly how they work, unless you want to go with "nobody knows anything unless their knowledge skills say they do, like identifying their own species".

Premise 1: Rejected, as a wizard needs nothing more than intelligence 10 to use the class, or intelligence 11 to cast first level spells without magical assistance. "Wizards capable of casting 9th level spells" is not what is being discussed, but instead "wizards".
Premise 2: Accepted, as their lack of social skills, arrogance, and standard wizardly practices are almost guaranteed to get a lot of people wanting them dead, tortured, or otherwise have vengeance taken out on them.
Premise 3: Accepted, with the caveat that arrogance can easily blind them to the very real danger they're in.

ANY high level character should be very difficult to kill, because they've managed to make it as far as they have doing the things they do. Either through inventiveness, reliable allies, huge numbers of magical abilities, being underestimated, whatever, they have lived through a lot. Killing them tends to be exceptionally difficult.

I am fairly sure any of those "replace entire list of prepared spells in seconds" is only possible in some versions of D&D, unlikely to be possible for most wizards, and still only as good as their current understanding of the problem.

Intelligence represents knowledge, which for a Wizard is quite literally power. It also represents ranks in those skills which represent an understanding of the underpinnings and mechanics of arcane magic. One cannot claim to be a capable, proficient spellcaster with full comprehension of the arcane arts without Intelligence.

Wisdom represents sense, sensitivity, and adaptability. Wisdom is one's ability to perceive, both physically and metaphysically, to adapt internally, and to deal with plans that have failed.

Charisma is a combination of charm, presence, and wit; it is the force of one's personality. The Sorcerer imposes his will on magic, rather than understanding it; he uses Charisma to bend it to his whim.

Your first point, Naomi, that Int isn't as important as Wis when it comes to making plans, is both incorrect and irrelevant. Incorrect, because Int is precisely the ability required to make plans; Wis is how you notice they've gone awry. And if you make your plans correctly, that never happens. Irrelevant, because Sorcerer is a Cha-based class, not a Wis-based class; what difference does it make to a Wizard vs. Sorcerer discussion what Wis does or doesn't do?

You also assume that Sorcerers know their spells, "and exactly how they work," but that's not true. A Wizard knows exactly how his spells work, in the sense that a scientist who has conducted an experiment knows that when he adds Element A to Element B, Reaction X will occur. A Sorcerer knows how his spells work, in the sense that a child who flips a light switch has a pretty good idea that the light is supposed to come on. The Sorcerer is simply accustomed to magic working because he said so, not because he understands why.

With regard to your assessment of premise 1: "Wizards" includes the set of all Wizards, from those who only cast first-level spells to those who cast ninth. Unless you want to narrow the field to only first-level spellcasters, accept that examples will be given of high-powered individuals.

With regard to your assessment of premises 2 and 3: No objection. You've got my vote there.

With regard to your last point, any high level character is going to be hard to kill, but a prepared Wizard will be close to impossible. His access to a diversity of spells, even if he has to prepare them daily, means that he can have hundreds of contingencies, protections, and buffs lasting a year and a day; it's a diversity to which the Sorcerer simply does not have access. While being able to select spells at will is valuable, having access to options is infinitely moreso.

[Naomi Li]

I don't hold with the "sorcerer selects inputs they don't understand and get a spell effect". They may not have an intellectual understanding of what they're doing, but they do know what they're doing at least as well as a street fighter knows their combat abilities. They can apply their metamagic whenever they need it, too.

As for "sorcerers use charisma and not wisdom", this is entirely true. Sorcerers are going to be coming up with socially brilliant plans... with a high chance of falling apart horribly due to their, on average, having higher charisma than wisdom. They can fail in the planning department just as badly as wizards, but their failures are at least more likely to result in them being banished than the entire town eaten by a horde of oozes)

(Also, a wizard's understanding of the universe relies upon their theories being actually correct, but there is plenty of evidence that at least in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting those theories have numerous flaws and don't get at the core principles of the universe at all. While they still function for situations they're familiar with, get into the edge cases or just where the premises change and their theories fall apart completely)

[Feint's End]

I am fairly sure any of those "replace entire list of prepared spells in seconds" is only possible in some versions of D&D, unlikely to be possible for most wizards, and still only as good as their current understanding of the problem.

To this I say .... it is possible in every D&D world using 3.5 simply for the reason that those spells exist. If you rule out those spells than we talking another case but since you are using houserules to proove something you want to be real doesn't make it any more real.

[Red Fel]

I don't hold with the "sorcerer selects inputs they don't understand and get a spell effect". They may not have an intellectual understanding of what they're doing, but they do know what they're doing at least as well as a street fighter knows their combat abilities. They can apply their metamagic whenever they need it, too.

Here's the thing. The average street brawler does not have a fundamental understanding of anatomy, or physics. He does not know that a blow to the solar plexus disrupts breathing and can disable an opponent, or that by using a pelvic thrust to an opponent's hip one can disrupt his center of gravity and more easily enable lifting of said opponent; he knows that punching them in the gut drops them sometimes, and that sometimes you can lift a guy from the side even if he looks heavy.

He knows he can do these things, but not why.

I will agree that the Sorcerer understands, generally, his capabilities. But I cannot agree that a low-Int Sorcerer understands why his powers function. He simply lacks comprehension.

Now, if you give me a Sorcerer with high Cha and high Int, who has taken levels in Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) and studied extensively, I might accept that he has an understanding of the mechanics of his powers. But looking at the basic capacities and foci of the two classes, the Sorcerer can be an idiot savant when it comes to magic; he can have no Int, no Wis, and simply brute-force his powers with Cha, without an understanding of their functionality. The Wizard cannot use his powers by force of will alone; he must understand how they work.

Does that make the Sorcerer more "magical"? Perhaps. I think we need to define that term better. But in terms of power, versatility likely wins out here.


(Also, a wizard's understanding of the universe relies upon their theories being actually correct, but there is plenty of evidence that at least in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting those theories have numerous flaws and don't get at the core principles of the universe at all. While they still function for situations they're familiar with, get into the edge cases or just where the premises change and their theories fall apart completely)

A Wizard's theories on magic aren't theories on the fundaments of the universe; they're theories on magic. Magic being a quantifiable force that can be studied, manipulated, and dissected. There are innumerable characters, PC and NPC, who do precisely this; it's one of the defining traits of the Wizard.

Not every Wizard claims to study the core principles of the universe. They study magic. I don't see why you equate the two.

[Naomi Li]

Let me rephrase, then. Wizards observe that when X and Y are true, Z happens. This is incorporated into their grand theory of magic. However, Z is only true when X, Y, and C are true, and when D is false. C has always been true in their experiences and D has always been false in their experiences, but if those conditions change they don't realize they will get different results. It is for this reason that sorcerers and wizards from other traditions can produce results that they thought were impossible.

(Also, I do hope you've noticed that we're using somewhat different definitions of "understand")

[Red Fel]

Let me rephrase, then. Wizards observe that when X and Y are true, Z happens. This is incorporated into their grand theory of magic. However, Z is only true when X, Y, and C are true, and when D is false. C has always been true in their experiences and D has always been false in their experiences, but if those conditions change they don't realize they will get different results. It is for this reason that sorcerers and wizards from other traditions can produce results that they thought were impossible.

Fair point. I would observe, however, that the highly-intelligent Wizard, particularly in the Tippyverse, has some contingencies in place for when the rules by which he operates break down; likely to retreat to someplace safe, study the phenomena, and resume operations once it has passed or until he has developed a countermeasure or adaptation.

As a side note, if the rules of the universe suddenly disabled or altered Wizard spells, wouldn't they similarly impact Sorcerer spells? And if so, unlike the Wizard, who could study and adapt to such phenomena, how would the Sorcerer cope?


(Also, I do hope you've noticed that we're using somewhat different definitions of "understand")

Extremely good point. I traditionally use "understand" to mean grok. It is possible you use a different definition.

[Naomi Li]

I don't mean "will render wizard spell non-functioning" and more "doesn't work as well at accomplishing this task as another wizard/sorcerer can". This is especially notable when it comes to their barred schools. In 3.5 they're flat out incapable of understanding one or two schools unless they're a generalist. No matter what they do, they cannot wrap their heads around the concept well enough to make them work. In Pathfinder, they're just far less efficient about it, requiring twice as much energy (spell slots) to accomplish the same means. In fluff, there are many other examples.

Sorcerers, on the other hand, don't use such systems. Instead, it is "this is how my magic functions and what I can do with it". Their intuitive understanding is reliable, can confound wizards because everything seems to match up until they start doing something "impossible", and generally just do what works best for themselves. They can't teach a wizard a grand theory of magic, but they can teach them a few ways that magic can be used.

As for "understand" I am using it in a much broader form, including intuitive capability, theoretical knowledge, muscle memory, and any other forms of knowledge.

(If I were to rate my own intellectual scores, I would have MAYBE 14 intelligence, 10 wisdom, and 6 charisma, and that's probably erring on the high side; so if I were to be in that universe I would definitley be an archivist, or possibly an archivist/generalist wizard/mystic theurge)

[Emperor Tippy]

Until they decide to flip the bird to petty little concerns like banned schools and just unban one of their schools for the day at the same time they repick all of their prepared spells for this fight.

Unless you lost the school through Incantatrix you can do that.

Limitations: Those are for non wizards.

[DMwithoutPC's]

I agree with your premise that Warlocks are the most magical of magic users, and Wizards one of the least magical. But the power level has nothing to do with this. And Wizards win. Sadly

[Chronos]

Quoth Feint's End:

As Tippy already said Wizards comprehend magic much better than Sorcerors because they actually learn it. They learn how it works and how you can tap into reality and shape it to your will. Sorcerors on the opposite just cast them ... they don't need to know how it works since they can just do it.
I can calculate the full trajectory of a football as a function of time, accounting for air resistance, wind, and the exact position of throwing hand or kicking foot. The vast majority of NFL players can't do that. It doesn't mean I'm more football-ish than them, though.

[Coidzor]

In this topic: Word choice and the importance thereof.

Though, really, you could also reverse the order as well. Wizards learn and understand magic, sorcerers inherit a connection through their blood and merely instinctively tap into a few limited portions of it, and warlocks don't even understand it instinctively in any respect, they've just got various pieces of incantation-level lore copy-and-pasted onto their soul by the pact they've made.