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KoDT69
2007-01-05, 12:57 PM
I have been reading a lot of these posts and have seen some pretty rediculous things.
1 - The Hulking Hurler character - First question is why would any DM let a player be a giant race in the first place? Then when you figure your 9ft diameter lead ball to throw for 5,000+ damage how do you justify having more than one? It definitely does not fit in a bag of holding unleass the DM is uberly medicated and allows it. Another thing, if I were DM and some cracked up player lifted said 600,000 lb lead ball, the ground beneath their 2 feet would cave in, dropping that damage onto their head.
2 - Half Dragon and other rediculous templates - I have seen claims of a +16 STR and +6 CON half dragon template suffering only a -4 CHA, where did this come from? I have no problem with huge stat points if earned legitimately, but really who lets this crap fly? As far as I recall the actual Half-Dragon template is +8 STR +2 INT +2 CON +2 CHA and a minor breath weapon.
I have so been inclined to allow Minotaurs, Centaurs, Hobgoblins, and some other random scary things fly in 2nd edition when a Minotaur only had +4 STR and +2 CON, pretty darn good, but now +8 STR is a bit much. They can keep the races but I adjust that massive bonus down to 2nd edition standards.
3 - Crazy prestige classes - I understand for flavor the reason for SOME of them, but seriously, A Tempest, a Dervish, Ninja Butt-Pirate? Some of the PrC's break the spirit of the game. In my campaigns I only allow base DMG PrC's for that reason.
What do you all think? Am I crazy for disliking some of the stuff? I'm down for fun and bending the rules just ask my players, but there is a line that should not be crossed at times.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-05, 01:17 PM
You make me sad. Come patsy *rides off*


ok, what you seem to be forgetting one major thing about these 'ridiculous templates': the LA and racial hd. LA sucks, period. You're behind your party on BaB, Caster levels, maximum level of spells known etc, not to mention the most important thing : Hit points. Templated/monstrous characters die real easy, and are often weaker than the other party members. THe bonuses, whilst they look good on paper, are negligible in actual play.

Crazy prestige classes-you picked some of the best balanced PrCs in your example. Go look at the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Master of Many Forms, then tell me Dervish, Tempest and Dread Pirate are broken.

Ashes
2007-01-05, 01:21 PM
...
I have so been inclined to allow Minotaurs, Centaurs, Hobgoblins, and some other random scary things fly in 2nd edition when a Minotaur only had +4 STR and +2 CON, pretty darn good, but now +8 STR is a bit much. They can keep the races but I adjust that massive bonus down to 2nd edition standards.

...

I choose to only answer this part, because it really flies in the face of all logic.
You do know that +4 Strength in 2nd Edition is massive, right? I mean, when the stats cap at 25, meaning that 25 is the ultimate pinnacle of both God and mortal, +4 is a whole wombating lot! A Minotaur fighter who placed an 18 in Strength in 2nd ed. would have a strength of 22. Three points below absolute, cosmic maximum!

In 3rd edition, there is no cap on max stat. But the maximum rolled score is still an 18. Add 8 to that. That's a 26. Still high, and powerful, but not anywhere near the gods. You've got people running around with stats in the thirties, a 26 is good but not scary good. So what you're actualyl doing is making ECL races (while not in any way something I like) completely nerfed if you still keep their LA and racial hit dice. You know they're losing levels right? The next-most valuable commodity in all of DnD.

If I've gotten you wrong, please elaborate.

(And even though MrNexx posted the correct ability score adjustments, my argument and point still stands.)

MrNexx
2007-01-05, 01:35 PM
Actually, a minotaur only had a +2 to strength. It was a Half-giant (from Athas) that had a +4, and they rolled 5d4 (or 4d4+4) for stats.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-05, 01:46 PM
Some of the templates are a little ridiculous but they are really designed for monsters I think they actually hurt characters in the long run compared to the rest of the party because of the LA.

KoDT69
2007-01-05, 02:15 PM
No I do not use LA which is why I coose to use the monster race at reduced stat bonus. Is a Minotaur fighter with a 22 STR and no LA broken? I just don't think penalizing a player for wanting to be a kobold or lizard man is fair, but I also don't think a +8 stat should be given to a 1st level character. As far as those PrC's I just picked some from the top of my head. I acknowledge your correctness and expertise those particulars are not so bad, but it was the nutzoid Poverty Monks and Shifter/Shapechangers stuff like that that leave room for abuse and DM irritation. I won't allow players to use the templates with crazy bonuses, use legendary monster abilities, or any of that other junk. The monsters they fight should use that stuff to make a challenge. What fun would the game be if you were a half elf half Minotaur Arcane Archer with a Composite longbow and a 30 STR and a 20 DEX hiding in the back of the group like a sheep pinging arrows? On the other hand I completely see a player being a raging Centar barbarian skilled in charging attacks :smallbiggrin:

Skyserpent
2007-01-05, 02:26 PM
An ally of mine was petrified and I hit him with a hammer...

Okay not what you were asking. But I agree with the other guys here. Not too much was wrong with all those except that Level Adjustment kills.

its_all_ogre
2007-01-05, 02:29 PM
you cannot play a first level minotaur unless the rest of the group is like level 7. a minotaur has 6 racial HD so is already level 6.
read the rules.

Morty
2007-01-05, 02:36 PM
3 - Crazy prestige classes - I understand for flavor the reason for SOME of them, but seriously, A Tempest, a Dervish, Ninja Butt-Pirate? Some of the PrC's break the spirit of the game. In my campaigns I only allow base DMG PrC's for that reason.
What exactly do you fing 'game spirit-breaking' in these PRCs? I think they're preety reasonable flavour-wise.

Ashes
2007-01-05, 02:41 PM
No I do not use LA which is why I coose to use the monster race at reduced stat bonus. Is a Minotaur fighter with a 22 STR and no LA broken? I just don't think penalizing a player for wanting to be a kobold or lizard man is fair, but I also don't think a +8 stat should be given to a 1st level character. As far as those PrC's I just picked some from the top of my head. I acknowledge your correctness and expertise those particulars are not so bad, but it was the nutzoid Poverty Monks and Shifter/Shapechangers stuff like that that leave room for abuse and DM irritation. I won't allow players to use the templates with crazy bonuses, use legendary monster abilities, or any of that other junk. The monsters they fight should use that stuff to make a challenge. What fun would the game be if you were a half elf half Minotaur Arcane Archer with a Composite longbow and a 30 STR and a 20 DEX hiding in the back of the group like a sheep pinging arrows? On the other hand I completely see a player being a raging Centar barbarian skilled in charging attacks :smallbiggrin:

Well, If you don't follow the rules, you can't expect it to be balanced. To quote a badly played character from a really bad movie "You did that yourself!"

And besides, Kobolds don't have an LA, and the Lizardman is LA +1 and 3 Racial HD IIRC. So, it is balanced.

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-05, 02:42 PM
The afforementioned Tempest Dervish Ninja Dread Pirate actually sounds like a blast to play. It might work as well as they're all dex-monkey classes.

Seffbasilisk
2007-01-05, 02:56 PM
Half-Dragon has a LA +3. Meaning that a level 1 fighter half-dragon would be the equivilant to a level 4 fighter. (or so)

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-05, 03:04 PM
If a class doesn't fit into the style or flavor of your campaign world, I think it's perfectly acceptable to ban them. But, banning them because they're good? That's just mean. you are the DM; you control everything that challenges them. The Dervish gets multiple attacks per round, but how much damage do they do against something with damage reduction that he doesn't have a weapon for? Have the monster ambush the PCs near a cliff and try to Bull Rush them the whole time. It's all up to you to find ways to challenge the players and work together as a team. If you can't do that, you aren't doing a great job.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 03:08 PM
http://www.oddpic.com/data/520/you_re-doing-it-wrong.jpg

The flavor for those prestige classes is fine, stats are DIFFERENT in 3.5 than in 2E, you're having problems because you're eliminating the Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Dice, which is your fault, and no one actually plays the Hulking Hurler, it's just a build.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-05, 03:12 PM
you're doing it wrong


Man you can't include that kind of stuff while I am working I started laughing out loud at my desk. :smallbiggrin: That was awesome.

KoDT69
2007-01-05, 03:14 PM
I do not award the racial HD either hence the lack of LA. I did read the rules, the first rule in the DMG. Me being DM kinda validates my groups house rules. The point I was making in the first place is that some of the stuff created with all the massive adjustments takes away from the game in my opinion. You all have valid points as I've previously said. A dual weilding Dread Pirate DEX monkey makes sense compared to a poor monk that can't own items but can OWN the monsters. On the other hand my players may thank you. Unlike some that will post something that they dislike and never give it a chance, at my next game session I will offer them the option to take the monster race at whatever LA and allow the PrC's. I never banned them because they were good, I banned 3rd party material. The basic DMG PrC's are in my game now. I still won't be allowing any Hulking Hurlers though, that one just floors me :smallfurious:
After said gaming session I will report player feedback, whether they bite the bullet or stick with tried and true. I'm not unreasonable, just too broke to afford all the supplemental books. A lot of my seeming lack of knowledge is completely unintentional. You're looking at a dude that read the entire set of Encyclopedia Magica's cover to cover twice in a row when it was first published. Back in the day when I was under 18, had cash, and not much else to do, I bought every supplemental book and read them cover to cover.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 03:22 PM
Yes, massive LA does tend to make monster races unplayable; if you find the LA is too much, you can reduce it a point or two.
As I understand it, the way you're doing it now, players can play races with Level Adjustment, but just with reduced bonuses--if so, then that's a MUCH better deal. A +4 STR, +2 CON half-dragon with no LA is a much better deal than a +8 STR, +4 CON half-dragon with +3 LA.

Why wouldn't a Dread Pirate make sense? I'm confused as to what you don't like about these prestige classes.

Nobody's suggesting you allow the Hulking Hurler. Nobody wants to play the Hulking Hurler.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-05, 03:30 PM
'Twas never really meant for player characters anyway. Much more of an NPC class to make Giant rock-throwers really nasty. Same goes for the Warshaper, until they released the bloody Changeling...

As for templates...well, your houserule works for you, apparently. Wizards' rules work for the rest of us (except for others with houserules, of course). So what are you complaining about?

And prestige classes in general...those are allowed at the DM's discretion, remember. Some are cool, some are just there, some are broken (but not very many). I think a lot of them have a solid place in a lot of campaigns, but if you disagree...do what you've already done. Huh. So...what's the problem?

KoDT69
2007-01-05, 03:31 PM
I said I did like the Dread Pirate DEX monkey build. I just picked random PrC names in the initial post as examples. I just don't understand tho on the Tempest, why is a PrC needed to dual weild? Fighters get lots of feats...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-05, 03:33 PM
Because TWF sucks?

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-05, 03:36 PM
I said I did like the Dread Pirate DEX monkey build. I just picked random PrC names in the initial post as examples. I just don't understand tho on the Tempest, why is a PrC needed to dual weild? Fighters get lots of feats...

PrCs are designed for specialising. And anyway, fighters suck at high levels, as does two-weapon fighting.

The good part of the Tempest is the fact that it gets rid of the penalties for two-weapon fighting, so it suddenly becomes better than fighting with a single weapon.

Tempest makes two-weapon fighting a viable choice for melee characters. Not the best (unless they're rogues), but certainly better than normal.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 03:38 PM
I said I did like the Dread Pirate DEX monkey build. I just picked random PrC names in the initial post as examples. I just don't understand tho on the Tempest, why is a PrC needed to dual weild? Fighters get lots of feats...

It isn't needed to dual-wield. It's an option for someone who wants to focus on it above and beyond taking the TWF feats.

And, like someone said, because TWF sucks.

Maclav
2007-01-05, 03:45 PM
Then when you figure your 9ft diameter lead ball to throw for 5,000+ damage how do you justify having more than one? It definitely does not fit in a bag of holding unleass the DM is uberly medicated and allows it. Another thing, if I were DM and some cracked up player lifted said 600,000 lb lead ball, the ground beneath their 2 feet would cave in, dropping that damage onto their head.

This ball, if made from cast lead, would weight 270000 lbs and change. That is what, 55 str to lift over his head and 60ish to throw with "Super really throw anything".

But thats just the math from the "build".. time to kill some cat girls.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-05, 03:47 PM
Trust me, it can be done. I believe a Sun Giant Hulking Hurler hypothetical build holds the record for maximum damage without using infinite loops at the Wizards of the Coast Character Optimization Boards.

Thomas
2007-01-05, 03:54 PM
I do not award the racial HD either hence the lack of LA.

"I do not think it means what you think it means."

The only thing worse than removing LA is removing the racial HD.

Racial HD "buy" a lot of a creature's abilities; a creature with a lot of racial HD, no special abilities, and moderate stat bonuses (say, three +4s) wouldn't have any LA. If a creature has less racial HD but the same abilities, it's much, much, much more powerful. Removing racial HD from a creature is not going to balance anything - it will unbalance things much more.

The LA system works fine if you use it right. Nobody will play minotaurs or giants because they will suck, being so much behind, and having so many ultimately poor racial HD. Kobolds, orcs, hobgoblins, goblins, and lizardmen remain playable, what with having few or no racial HD to begin with, and low or no LA.

MrNexx
2007-01-05, 05:27 PM
Actually, one thing I do WRT to racial HD is allow them to be turned into NPC class levels. Not BTB, I know, but it works a little better.

Maryring
2007-01-05, 05:43 PM
Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil is not broken. It's just... awesome. Yeah, that's right.

Everything can be as broken as it want to be for what I care. I care little for power or difficulty. What is most important when you play DnD is that EVERYONE enjoy themselves. So what if the plot is horrible, the PCs range from useless to cheesier than Punpun and no rules are followed? In the end, it is the enjoyment of the game that matters.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-05, 05:52 PM
So what if the plot is horrible, the PCs range from useless to cheesier than Punpun and no rules are followed? In the end, it is the enjoyment of the game that matters.

Such a game is unlikely to be enjoyable.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-05, 06:09 PM
Well, seeing as how my current character is a werewolf barbarian/warshaper, perhaps I should just avoid this thread. ^^;

Save to point out that I am quite possibly, despite all those cool things, the weakest character at the table. I took the Afflicted Lycanthrope template, not for power, but because I love werewolves and had a good character idea. I took Warshaper in part because it looked awesome and in part because refining control of his shapechanging is one of Darrik's biggest goals, which is what the Warshaper is all about. I love my character.

He's a little behind the others, but I still love him and have a blast playing him.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-05, 06:21 PM
I have a half-fiend character in my campaign. It is without a doubt, the WEAKEST character in the party. She has had three times more brushes with death than the person in second place and she's even asked if I will kill her character just so she can play something without a level adjustment.

Maryring
2007-01-06, 10:18 AM
Such a game is unlikely to be enjoyable.
Of course. I was just trying to make a point. In the end, the rules, the plot, the characters. They are all tools we use to enjoy ourselves and have a great time. In the end, it doesn't matter how realistic the game is, or balanced the team is. As long as everyone has fun.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-06, 10:22 AM
Of course. I was just trying to make a point. In the end, the rules, the plot, the characters. They are all tools we use to enjoy ourselves and have a great time. In the end, it doesn't matter how realistic the game is, or balanced the team is. As long as everyone has fun.

Yeah, we know that. But in practice, if the party is seriously unbalanced, the game becomes less fun for one or more people. So of course people worry about balance.

Maryring
2007-01-06, 11:07 AM
That's true. But if everyone is equally unbalanced, they do balance themselves up. Of course, this only works if everyone is unabalnced in the same direction, but I think it can be fun. But we're agreeing, so I don't see why I'm arguing.

X15lm204
2007-01-06, 04:55 PM
Of course, if everyone is too unbalanced, designing good encounters that are neither too easy nor TPKs becomes a challenge, and too many of those sorts of battles tends to be extremely off-putting to most players.