The easy fix to shiver touch

[A Tad Insane]

We all know the legends, about how a lvl 5 wizard can kill an adult dragon in two rounds, the fabled spell that is only used once before the dm bans it for eternity, but seriously, why do people stick to the RAW so hard with it? It was an obvious typo, so why not just prevent it from lower dex below one like a rational person? In new groups, people don't really know what happens when you get a 0 non-con ability score, and veterans know what the spell was supposed to do. It just bugs me, and I wanted to vent.

[Vaz]

Because we are dealing with a game that is so varied and based around houserules to function, on forums when it is unlikely even 1% of the sites members have played with each other, you have to talk in terms of RAW, unless explicitly mentioned. there are easy fixes for everything, whether it is Planar Shepherd abuse, or Ladders into poles.

[Story]

The real fix is Scintillating Scales, but unless you want to make all your dragons Incatrices, they won't be able to keep it up for long.

[Beardbarian]

The real fix is Scintillating Scales, but unless you want to make all your dragons Incatrices, they won't be able to keep it up for long.

Easy fix = Fort negates

[Maginomicon]

We all know the legends, about how a lvl 5 wizard can kill an adult dragon in two rounds, the fabled spell that is only used once before the dm bans it for eternity, but seriously, why do people stick to the RAW so hard with it? It was an obvious typo, so why not just prevent it from lower dex below one like a rational person? In new groups, people don't really know what happens when you get a 0 non-con ability score, and veterans know what the spell was supposed to do. It just bugs me, and I wanted to vent.
Because as-is, it does ability damage, not an ability penalty. I house-rule it and its lesser version as doing penalties, as the duration line makes it obvious that they meant penalty.

[Rainbownaga]

0 dex means paralyzed ; dragons are immune to paralysis.

RAW fix :P

[Vaz]

They are immune to Paralysis effects, not Paralysis.

[Rainbownaga]

They are immune to Paralysis effects, not Paralysis.

Paralysis isn't a paralysis effect? Considering how people choose to interpret the RAW for ironheart surge, and the fact that we are trying to nerf shivering touch should let us read that dragons are immune to the paralysis effect of having 0 dex.

[ryu]

Paralysis isn't a paralysis effect? Considering how people choose to interpret the RAW for ironheart surge, and the fact that we are trying to nerf shivering touch should let us read that dragons are immune to the paralysis effect of having 0 dex.

That's paralysis resulting from a different effect, not paralysis as an effect in itself. Now you may or may not be able to iron heart surge the ability damage directly, but the paralysis resulting from it isn't the effect.

[Emperor Ing]

Ring of Energy Immunity: Cold. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Energy_Immunity)

Problem solved. Next question?

[Talya]

Easy fix = Fort negates

typically, this also means you get to use it without a touch attack, and probably at close (25ft +5ft/2 levels) range. Touch spells usually have a touch attack in place of a save, not in addition to it.

Still, the dragon does a lot better that way.

There's also the fact that the spell is generally dangerous to use without a lot of setup to render yourself immune to damage, first. Without tricks, it's a touch spell. As a wizard/sorcerer, getting to within touch range of a dragon is typically something you want to avoid. And then there's almost a 50% chance it does 9 or less dex damage and leaves you wide open for a counter attack

[Maginomicon]

That's paralysis resulting from a different effect, not paralysis as an effect in itself. Now you may or may not be able to iron heart surge the ability damage directly, but the paralysis resulting from it isn't the effect.
It's also a moot point since paralysis (regardless of the cause) prevents movement, which is required for an Iron Heart Surge maneuver anyway.

[Samalpetey]

Ring of Energy Immunity: Cold. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Energy_Immunity)

Problem solved. Next question?

IIRC, you need the cold subtype to be immune, not just cold immunity

[Piggy Knowles]

There are plenty of easy fixes to problem spells. Shivering Touch has several options - giving it a save and making it a penalty in the same vein as Ray of Enfeeblement are both excellent options.

But just because something can be fixed with an easy houserule doesn't mean that it's not broken...

[Karnith]

IIRC, you need the cold subtype to be immune, not just cold immunity
There's that, and also a ring that costs roughly a quarter of a 20th-level character's recommended WBL is probably not the best (or, at least, most efficient) counter to a third-level spell.

[Rainbownaga]

The discussions on iron heart surge point out that 'effect' is not clearly defined and talk about IHS-ing the sun for exmple.

Nowhere does it say that effect only come from creatures. If you had a disease that inflicted the paralysed condition, a dragon infected by it would surely be immune to that effect.

Now, instead of having a rare disease, the dragon instead has a 0 dex score. This causes paralysis. Whether or not it can IHS it is irrelevant. This is not an effect of the shivering touch spell, it is a consequence of having 0 dex.

Is this a paralysis effect? I would still say yes. Part of me hopes that the designers saw the dragons' achillies heel and gave it a counter.

(Heck, you could theoretically give dragons immunity to dex damage since all dex damage really is is gradual paralysis.)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, it's just one interpretation, but it's one that saves a lot of headaches.

[Lord Vukodlak]

typically, this also means you get to use it without a touch attack, and probably at close (25ft +5ft/2 levels) range. Touch spells usually have a touch attack in place of a save, not in addition to it.

Slay Living is a touch spell and fort negates, in addition inflict spells are touch and have a save. Nights Caress deals physical damage and con damage but the save only effects the ability damage.

[Emperor Tippy]

The real fix was Mantle of the Icy Snow from Frostburn before the stupid stealth errata in Spell Compendium. It was instantaneous and gave you the cold subtype along with immunity to cold. Combine with Mantle of the Fiery Spirit from Sandstorm for the fire subtype (which wasn't ever changed) and you were forever more immune to both fire and cold with no downside.

And every dragon of even moderate age had both of them already cast on them.

[herrhauptmann]

Slay Living is a touch spell and fort negates,
Which is a death spell. Imagine the uproar if there was a death spell that was just a touch attack. Even disintegrate has a save vs turning into a pile of ash.


in addition inflict spells are touch and have a save.
Save for will half.
There's also the mass version, which is the same spell. Take away the save on regular inflict, and the mass inflict spells would (should) lose it too.
Bing, auto damage against the whole party since mass inflict doesn't even require a touch attack.

For both of the above, there's also probably an element of rules carryover.
Both of the examples are spells from older editions where they also required a touch attack and a save (different rulesets, different save, but a save nonetheless).

[Jack_Simth]

The real fix was Mantle of the Icy Snow from Frostburn before the stupid stealth errata in Spell Compendium. It was instantaneous and gave you the cold subtype along with immunity to cold. Combine with Mantle of the Fiery Spirit from Sandstorm for the fire subtype (which wasn't ever changed) and you were forever more immune to both fire and cold with no downside.There is one downside: The Fire and Cold domain power. You trade HP vulnerabilities for a particular status vulnerability (a fairly uncommon one, granted).

[Chronos]

Remember, it's not just dragons that it works on. Sure, a dragon of reasonable age can be expected to have protective magic items, or Scintillating Scales, or have gotten Mantle spells cast on them, or whatever... But a wild T. rex won't have any of those things, and it's unreasonable for a 5th-level wizard to one-shot one of those, too.

[Morithias]

I usually just scare my players off with a claim.

"The fastest you ever end an encounter is how fast your enemies will try to beat you. Consider the world to have rubber-band AI."

Sure your wizard may have shivering touch, but that Dark Changeling Deathstalker has a Death Attack DC of 40, through a legit build. Good luck making your save!

Basically if they start one slotting stuff, I make it clear I'm going to play rocket tag back.

And the DM....always wins in the end.

[olentu]

I usually just scare my players off with a claim.

"The fastest you ever end an encounter is how fast your enemies will try to beat you. Consider the world to have rubber-band AI."

Sure your wizard may have shivering touch, but that Dark Changeling Deathstalker has a Death Attack DC of 40, through a legit build. Good luck making your save!

Basically if they start one slotting stuff, I make it clear I'm going to play rocket tag back.

And the DM....always wins in the end.

Eh, there is no need for jerk DMing tactics. Just ban the spell if you don't like it.

[ryu]

Eh, there is no need for jerk DMing tactics. Just ban the spell if you don't like it.

Or just talk with your players like a human being if you don't like what they're doing. These are ostensibly friends you want to have a fun time with, not children to be the target of fear tactics.

[Morithias]

Or just talk with your players like a human being if you don't like what they're doing. These are ostensibly friends you want to have a fun time with, not children to be the target of fear tactics.

My friends perfectly understand what I mean by it. It's not a fear tactic, it's simply that the world isn't stupid.

The more they optimize, the more the rest of the world optimizes.

I usually sum up my logic as follows.

"Do you honestly think your 18 year old mage is the first one to come up with that idea?"

[ryu]

My friends perfectly understand what I mean by it. It's not a fear tactic, it's simply that the world isn't stupid.

The more they optimize, the more the rest of the world optimizes.

I usually sum up my logic as follows.

"Do you honestly think your 18 year old mage is the first one to come up with that idea?"

That isn't the point. The point is the tone you deliberately took of eventually winning by force of resources rather than merely scaling encounter difficulty to match your players power. I play high tier one all the time while fully expecting if not demanding the DM to make something that can challenge that. Deliberately going above and beyond making things even to ''win'' is indeed a fear tactic whether or not you acknowledge it as one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Which is a death spell. Imagine the uproar if there was a death spell that was just a touch attack. Kinda like the uproar from dealing 3d6 dex damage(no save) which is effectively a death spell that's just a touch attack?



For both of the above, there's also probably an element of rules carryover.
Both of the examples are spells from older editions where they also required a touch attack and a save (different rulesets, different save, but a save nonetheless).
Vampiric Touch and Shocking Grasp had saving throws in earlier editions but they don't anymore. So the carry over argument is moot.


There's also the mass version, which is the same spell. Take away the save on regular inflict, and the mass inflict spells would (should) lose it too.
Not really, if a spell has no saving throw because it requires an attack roll. There is no reason for "no save" to carry over to the mass version as its no longer touch. I could pick through the books and likely find a dozen or more touch spells that have a saving throw. The examples of saving and touch spells underscore the fact that being a touch spell doesn't automatically exempt it from having a saving throw.

[Morithias]

That isn't the point. The point is the tone you deliberately took of eventually winning by force of resources rather than merely scaling encounter difficulty to match your players power. I play high tier one all the time while fully expecting if not demanding the DM to make something that can challenge that. Deliberately going above and beyond making things even to ''win'' is indeed a fear tactic whether or not you acknowledge it as one.

It's not about 'winning' it about making it clear to the players I don't accept cheap mary-sue style playing like this.

Imagine if you said "do whatever" to a player, and one player showed up with Pun-Pun.

Are you seriously not going to stop him?

That's the same way with me, and shivering touch and other such non-cinematic and cheap tricks.

[ryu]

It's not about 'winning' it about making it clear to the players I don't accept cheap mary-sue style playing like this.

Imagine if you said "do whatever" to a player, and one player showed up with Pun-Pun.

Are you seriously not going to stop him?

That's the same way with me, and shivering touch and other such non-cinematic and cheap tricks.

I quite deliberately wouldn't. The fact that he brought that means he wants a game where pun-pun is a thing that can be done. His enemies will also be pun-pun and his allies will also be allowed to pun-pun. Pun-pun on pun-pun murder party. I've played in games like that. It was AWESOME!

[Morithias]

I quite deliberately wouldn't. The fact that he brought that means he wants a game where pun-pun is a thing that can be done. His enemies will also be pun-pun and his allies will also be allowed to pun-pun. Pun-pun on pun-pun murder party. I've played in games like that. It was AWESOME!

And how is that different from me scaling my encounters to similar "instant kill" techniques when the PCs are using instant win techniques?

[ryu]

And how is that different from me scaling my encounters to similar "instant kill" techniques when the PCs are using instant win techniques?

How's it different?! That's even. It isn't deliberately tilting encounters off balance to spite a PC you disagree with. It also doesn't assume the PCs are all going to die because they play differently than some DM ideal.

[Morithias]

How's it different?! That's even. It isn't deliberately tilting encounters off balance to spite a PC you disagree with. It also doesn't assume the PCs are all going to die because they play differently than some DM ideal.

Okay, so if the wizard is level 5, and is some min-maxed character.

and I throw a min-maxed level 5 character at him.

How is that "off balance"? It's the same level. It's just a question of who is better at the optimizing, me or him.

[A Tad Insane]

I vent a bit of annoyance earlier this morning, come back here, and this.
...
I guess it I shouldn't be surprised, but still...

[ryu]

Okay, so if the wizard is level 5, and is some min-maxed character.

and I throw a min-maxed level 5 character at him.

How is that "off balance"? It's the same level. It's just a question of who is better at the optimizing, me or him.

Again that is FINE so long as you aren't deliberately optimizing to higher magnitude than he is. Just because someone is playing more effectively than you like doesn't mean they aren't holding back deliberately at all. Pun-pun can be done at level one to put this in perspective. If any player who had spent serious effort looking at how to maximize their power just for power's sake with no limits pun-pun at level one is the answer.

[TuggyNE]

Kinda like the uproar from dealing 3d6 dex damage(no save) which is effectively a death spell that's just a touch attack?

There is a notable difference between save-or-die and save-or-lose, and comparably between no-save-just-die and no-save-just-lose, and even a slight difference between a [death] effect and a (save-or-)die. Shivering touch has its defenses*, they just aren't good enough to compensate for the effect.

*Having more than 3d6 Dex; having a way to recover Dex quickly; being immune to ability damage; [cold] subtype; high touch AC; spell resistance.

[JaronK]

Next question would be "Lahm's Finger Darts"?

JaronK

[peacenlove]

Next question would be "Lahm's Finger Darts"?

JaronK

Ray of enfeeblement, so caster can't pay corruption cost. :smalltongue:
It has more range than ST but a lot more drawbacks (limits on fingers, needs pre-buffing to pass the SR, etc.).

Seriously if you fear touch spells, notable feats for your dragons should be Stand Still and later on, Spellcasting Harrier (updated in Draconomicon).
Or if you want to be serious about it, either quickened minor globe of invurnerability or upgrade your dragons into dracoliches.


Remember, it's not just dragons that it works on. Sure, a dragon of reasonable age can be expected to have protective magic items, or Scintillating Scales, or have gotten Mantle spells cast on them, or whatever... But a wild T. rex won't have any of those things, and it's unreasonable for a 5th-level wizard to one-shot one of those, too.

Ray of stupidity (SC) can OHKO a T.rex from 3rd level from range.

[Morithias]

Ray of enfeeblement, so caster can't pay corruption cost. :smalltongue:
It has more range than ST but a lot more drawbacks (limits on fingers, needs pre-buffing to pass the SR, etc.).

Seriously if you fear touch spells, notable feats for your dragons should be Stand Still and later on, Spellcasting Harrier (updated in Draconomicon).
Or if you want to be serious about it, either quickened minor globe of invurnerability or upgrade your dragons into dracoliches.

Ray of stupidity (SC) can OHKO a T.rex from 3rd level from range.

And a deathstalker can OHKO a wizard in the night. But apparently when I OHKO it's unfair.

[Forum Explorer]

How's it different?! That's even. It isn't deliberately tilting encounters off balance to spite a PC you disagree with. It also doesn't assume the PCs are all going to die because they play differently than some DM ideal.

Ryu you are really misunderstanding what he said. Basically he plays as hard as his PCs do. They want a nice casual game? Then that's what they'll get if they play accordingly. They want to optimize a lot? Then optimized opponents will be the norm. Somewhere between the two? Ditto.

You want to use cheap tactics to try and 'win' the game? Then he will do the same, and he only needs to win the draw once.

[TaiLiu]

Ryu you are really misunderstanding what he said. Basically he plays as hard as his PCs do. They want a nice casual game? Then that's what they'll get if they play accordingly. They want to optimize a lot? Then optimized opponents will be the norm. Somewhere between the two? Ditto.

You want to use cheap tactics to try and 'win' the game? Then he will do the same, and he only needs to win the draw once.
You don't look at gender symbols at all, do you? :smalltongue:

[Morithias]

Ryu you are really misunderstanding what he said. Basically he plays as hard as his PCs do. They want a nice casual game? Then that's what they'll get if they play accordingly. They want to optimize a lot? Then optimized opponents will be the norm. Somewhere between the two? Ditto.

You want to use cheap tactics to try and 'win' the game? Then he will do the same, and he only needs to win the draw once.

Thank you!

Hell my skype group sometimes does freeform games without dice. I'm not a cruel DM. But the thing is, I am a STORYTELLER above all else. If you want to be grind-killing enemy mobs, go play Team Fortress 2. That game is fun.


You don't look at gender symbols at all, do you? :smalltongue:

Uh...well...technically I'm a M2F, but let's not go there. I know what Explorer meant.

[olentu]

And a deathstalker can OHKO a wizard in the night. But apparently when I OHKO it's unfair.

I assume that the deathstalker kills the rest of the party too.

[Morithias]

I assume that the deathstalker kills the rest of the party too.

I'm just saying, when you've over thrown 3 evil overlords you make a lot of enemies....and Deathstalkers are Lawful Evil...

[olentu]

I'm just saying, when you've over thrown 3 evil overlords you make a lot of enemies....and Deathstalkers are Lawful Evil...

Is that a yes, or a no.

[Morithias]

Is that a yes, or a no.

Considering the party is working together...I suppose in-universe it would make sense...really depends who hired the deathstalker...

[TaiLiu]

Uh...well...technically I'm a M2F, but let's not go there. I know what Explorer meant.
Oh, I know, but I was getting confused; he didn't quote your post, and I only had a pronoun to work with. It wasn't too difficult to go back and deduce it, I suppose.

[olentu]

Considering the party is working together...I suppose in-universe it would make sense...really depends who hired the deathstalker...

That's not really an answer so let me rephrase. When you make up an NPC to hire deathstalkers in response to a player casting shivering touch on a dragon do you generally have that NPC get the deathstalkers to kill the whole party.

[TaiLiu]

That's not really an answer so let me rephrase. When you make up an NPC to hire deathstalkers in response to a player casting shivering touch on a dragon do you generally have that NPC get the deathstalkers to kill the whole party.
It depends on the party, their acts, and the NPC. There are too many variables for a singular word to be an answer, unless one invents a new one.

[olentu]

It depends on the party, their acts, and the NPC. There are too many variables for a singular word to be an answer, unless one invents a new one.

Hence my rephrasing the question to inquire about the general trend. Surely if the DM sending NPC death squads after the party when they use shivering touch is important enough to bring up in the discussion the person who brought it up should be able to give some general advice to other DMs about how to implement the one hit kill deathstalker method of dealing with the spell.

[Morithias]

Hence my rephrasing the question to inquire about the general trend. Surely if the DM sending NPC death squads after the party when they use shivering touch is important enough to bring up in the discussion the person who brought it up should be able to give some general advice to other DMs about how to implement the one hit kill deathstalker method of dealing with the spell.

Simple.

Be tougher than the toughie's and smarter than the smarties.

The deathstalker method isn't about actually killing the PCs, it's about intimidation. It's about making it clear to them, "you play hard ball, I'll play hard ball right back."

The only thing you really need to make the method work, is to be able to optimize on-par with your PCs.

Make it clear that if they do stuff like this, and start breaking the game, you're taking it as an all-clear sign.

A dragon should not be a pushover, it should be an epic boss fight. It shouldn't be something ended with a single poorly-thought out spell.

[olentu]

Simple.

Be tougher than the toughie's and smarter than the smarties.

The deathstalker method isn't about actually killing the PCs, it's about intimidation. It's about making it clear to them, "you play hard ball, I'll play hard ball right back."

The only thing you really need to make the method work, is to be able to optimize on-par with your PCs.

Make it clear that if they do stuff like this, and start breaking the game, you're taking it as an all-clear sign.

A dragon should not be a pushover, it should be an epic boss fight. It shouldn't be something ended with a single poorly-thought out spell.

Right so, you do actually say these things clearly and directly to the players, if not instead of then at least in addition to your attempts to instill them with fear.

Edit: And seriously if you don't like the spell then just ban it.

[Morithias]

Right so, you do actually say these things clearly and directly to the players, if not instead of then at least in addition to your attempts to instill them with fear.

Edit: And seriously if you don't like the spell then just ban it.

It would be impossible to go through all of 3.5 and ban every story-breaking power. It's easier to make your players keep themselves in check.

This isn't just about shivering touch. It's about what shivering touch and other abilities like it does. They ruin stories. They turn hard boss battles into anti-climaxes, and epic stories about sacrifice and so on, into pushover cutting the knot style solutions.

Imagine Lord of the Rings where Gandalf went "I teleport to mount doom, and use mind blank to protect my mind while I throw it in."

[olentu]

It would be impossible to go through all of 3.5 and ban every story-breaking power. It's easier to make your players keep themselves in check.

Right so, you do actually say these things clearly and directly to the players, if not instead of then at least in addition to your attempts to instill them with fear.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's not really an answer so let me rephrase. When you make up an NPC to hire deathstalkers in response to a player casting shivering touch on a dragon do you generally have that NPC get the deathstalkers to kill the whole party.

No NPC should be made up to hire assassins to go after the party for using a specific spell on a Dragon.

However, if you are going to try and use things like Shivering Touch against a Great Wyrm Dragon then you should expect that said dragon has little things like Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field and will be teaching you the error of your ways very shortly.

The party better also hope that they have captured the dragons soul as otherwise it will be brought back to life and will be pissed at the party. One night they might just find themselves dropped onto a dead magic demiplane via Wish while the dragon has a Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble up so that he can use his magic and items as normal.

Or maybe the dragon was an ally or patsy of someone else and said someone else is going to teach you the error of your ways by having a Rudimentary Intelligence Shadesteel Golem Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Monk 2/ Factotum 8 with Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, Reflect Arrow's, and Kung Fu Genius as some of its feats (it's only CR 16) Wished to your parties location one night to deal with you pesky adventurers before you potentially become a real threat. And if the enemy is a real **** then he sends Ice Assassin's of that above golem assassin as it costs less when you destroy them.

Shivering Touch is the kind of thing that will work on a Young to Young Adult dragon. The one's still in there first century of life, who's intelligence is still merely human and who's own magic is just emerging. Even then though you should expect a Craft Contingent Spell Immunity keyed to Shivering Touch.

---
PC's up to level 5 are local problems. In real life think of them kinda like your small time street gangs. These gangs are relevant to a small area (often times only a couple of city blocks or the like) and their opposition are the local police (who even then often don't care all that much). Unless they do something to attract the attention of a bigger fish then they are the big dogs and life goes on.

Level 5-10 are the major street gangs and most "organized crime" organizations. These people get dedicated vice task forces assigned to them with said task forces often having federal help from the FBI, DEA, ATF, and other federal agencies. Undercover agent's, wire taps, electronic surveillance, etc. are all brought out. To successfully be a criminal at this level requires a lot more skill that it did at the one before and any small time street gang that gets this kind of attention quickly finds its self destroyed.

Level 10-15 are the major MC's, the drug cartels, the major multinational organized crime syndicates, and similar things. State and local cops rarely have much at all to do with these things. Military grade heavy weapons and billion dollar bankrolls are not a rarity at this level. Generally the best that even major federal law enforcement agencies can do against this kind of threat is contain it.

Level 15-20 are the international terrorism organizations and major foreign nations. This is when spy satellites, the NSA, CIA SAD/SOG teams, secret prisons, and even full scale military assaults become the rules of the game. The smallest mistake can (and likely will) be punished ruthlessly.

When you start playing for objectives measured in nations, worlds, and even planes everyone plays for keeps and they either have the skills and personality to play at that level or they are (at best) a pawn for some other entity that has such skills.

So should a level 20 Wizard hit a Great Wyrm Red with Shivering Touch if he gets the chance? Absolutely. Will he ever get that chance? Absolutely not.

[Morithias]

Of course this can vary from setting to setting. A level 10 character in Eberron and a level 10 character in Planescape are two VERY different people.


Right so, you do actually say these things clearly and directly to the players, if not instead of then at least in addition to your attempts to instill them with fear.

Yeah, and I can sum it up easily.

"Anti-climax boss, equals anti-climax party."

Everyone is the hero of their own story. Don't think because you're the PCs that you're anything special in my games. No you're just the people the camera follows around. You can die just as easily as anyone else.

I give plot armor.

That is armor that protects the PLOT, not the player.

[137beth]

Give shivering touch (and its lesser variant) a save for half, and add a clause that it cannot lower the monster's dexterity below 1.
That's basically what PF did to ray of enfeeblement (although they added an additional clause that it does not stack with itself).

[olentu]

Snip

Yeah sure whatever. That is fine and all, so long as all dragons are played that way all the time. However that most certainly does not seem to be the case here or else shivering touch would not prompt the whole NPC death squad response.


Of course this can vary from setting to setting. A level 10 character in Eberron and a level 10 character in Planescape are two VERY different people.



Yeah, and I can sum it up easily.

"Anti-climax boss, equals anti-climax party."

Everyone is the hero of their own story. Don't think because you're the PCs that you're anything special in my games. No you're just the people the camera follows around. You can die just as easily as anyone else.

I give plot armor.

That is armor that protects the PLOT, not the player.

Well okay. So long as you are clearly and explicitly stating this stance to the players ahead of time and once again when it comes up (given that the list of things that are problems it too long for you to go into detail on) then I suppose I have no problem. The players consented to all the PLOT rails, NPC death squads, and so on ahead of time so they knew what they were getting into.

It's probably not the best advice to hand out without mentioning that little detail though. We wouldn't want impressionable new DMs to only pick up on the NPC death squad part without the whole telling the players part.

[Morithias]

Well okay. So long as you are clearly and explicitly stating this stance to the players ahead of time and once again when it comes up (given that the list of things that are problems it too long for you to go into detail on) then I suppose I have no problem. The players consented to all the PLOT rails, NPC death squads, and so on ahead of time so they knew what they were getting into.

Think of my games like you're scripting a movie.

Ask yourself when you make your PC.

Would this make for good drama? Does this make for a good story?"

Does this action fall under Rule of Cool/Funny/Drama?

Or is my character due to my insane optimization, and no care for any kind of real backstory nothing more than an author avatar, boring invincible hero, mary-sue?

Ask yourself. If I was sitting in a cinema watching this story that we're writing play out on the screen, would I feel ripped off, when they reach the big bad dragon, paralyze him with a single spell and kill him in 6 seconds?

[olentu]

Think of my games like you're scripting a movie.

Ask yourself when you make your PC.

Would this make for good drama? Does this make for a good story?"

Does this action fall under Rule of Cool/Funny/Drama?

Or is my character due to my insane optimization, and no care for any kind of real backstory nothing more than an author avatar, boring invincible hero, mary-sue?

Ask yourself. If I was sitting in a cinema watching this story that we're writing play out on the screen, would I feel ripped off, when they reach the big bad and kill him in 6 seconds?

Eh, I have found that games the DMs are trying to run like a movie script do not turn out so great generally but personal opinion is personal opinion. This is why I do not find it objectionable so long as the players know what they are getting into, which, given that you apparently tell them clearly and explicitly, would seem to be the case.

[Morithias]

Eh, I have found that games the DMs are trying to run like a movie script do not turn out so great generally but personal opinion is personal opinion. This is why I do not find it objectionable so long as the players know what they are getting into, which, given that you apparently tell them clearly and explicitly, would seem to be the case.

I guess...hmm..how should I put this.

My games aren't power fantasy.

They're fantasy. Period.

Don't let the over-the-top setting of Rosewood fool you, I've studied media a lot in my spare time, and I do want to see the PCs win.

However I do not want to simply HAND you the victory. The victory is meaningless if you did virtually nothing to achieve it. There's no triumph because there is no challenge.

That's really what people are complaining about when it comes to this spell. It's not the fact that it does dex damage without a save, or something like that, it's the fact it completely disables an entire type of creature, one of the most bad-ass creatures in the game, to the point where half the game is NAMED after them.

Dragons aren't suppose to be wimps, they're suppose to be epic beasts of legend, that serve as the final boss to a long module, not just random encounters!

The spell destroys any drama or sense of danger that used to come with these beasts. It makes fighting them BORING.

[AMFV]

You guys do realize that shivering touch is SR: Yes, and that great worm dragon's SR is not likely to be beaten at lower levels. They're also spell casters who get spell immunity which is a pretty good fix. There are defenses, also you have to be close enough to cast a touch spell on a great wyrm, it's certainly not a perfect solution to the dragon problem. In actual play it should be fairly easy to mitigate without even using Tippy-style ridiculousness.

[Morithias]

You guys do realize that shivering touch is SR: Yes, and that great worm dragon's SR is not likely to be beaten at lower levels. They're also spell casters who get spell immunity which is a pretty good fix. There are defenses, also you have to be close enough to cast a touch spell on a great wyrm, it's certainly not a perfect solution to the dragon problem. In actual play it should be fairly easy to mitigate without even using Tippy-style ridiculousness.

Well Spectral hand fixes the close-range thing at the very least.

[olentu]

I guess...hmm..how should I put this.

My games aren't power fantasy.

They're fantasy. Period.

Don't let the over-the-top setting of Rosewood fool you, I've studied media a lot in my spare time, and I do want to see the PCs win.

However I do not want to simply HAND you the victory. The victory is meaningless if you did virtually nothing to achieve it. There's no triumph because there is no challenge.

That's really what people are complaining about when it comes to this spell. It's not the fact that it does dex damage without a save, or something like that, it's the fact it completely disables an entire type of creature, one of the most bad-ass creatures in the game, to the point where half the game is NAMED after them.

Dragons aren't suppose to be wimps, they're suppose to be epic beasts of legend, that serve as the final boss to a long module, not just random encounters!

The spell destroys any drama or sense of danger that used to come with these beasts. It makes fighting them BORING.

I am glad that works for you. So long as your players agreed to your intimidation tactics and whatnot ahead of time, without any coercion of course, I suppose it is fine since they knew what they were getting into.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If Shivering Touch was a 9th spell level people would still prepare it, they'd take along an greater empowered metamagic rod but they'd still prepare Shivering Touch because the dex damage is that powerful.

The best fix is just to ban the spell, a DM isn't obligated to allow every splat book under the sun or subscribe to the Tippy universe mindset. People who like the spell won't like it after you nerf it, people who don't like the spell will be happy to see it gone. So the best fix is to simply ban the spell and move on. A DM is under no obligation to allow every splat book under the sun.

I've found people are more open to the ban hammer then the nerf hammer.

[AMFV]

Well Spectral hand fixes the close-range thing at the very least.

And scintillating scales fixes the touch AC problem. If we're using more spells then the dragon certainly can. There are certainly defenses, AMF is another one, an exceptional one.

For the strategy to work you also have to surprise the dragon, which is often extremely difficult. It can work, but it's not going to always work, which is pretty much most spells.

[fluke1993]

Olentu, I think you and I have a different definition of intimidation than morthias does. I think what she is saying that if the players in her (I think it's a her?) group start pulling things like shivering touch on BBEGs then she starts playing at an even level. Instead of using a rouge 8 she goes with an assassin optimized for death attack. Instead of a blaster sorc lobbing fireballs, we see a battlefield control wizard with glitterdust and black tentacles

The "intimidation" she is talking about is making sure that players are aware that the more higher they optimize their characters the more she optimizes hers.

Finally, I do not believe she is sending npc god-mode hit squads after the players just because they use things like shivering touch (unless of course they tried to give the local crime lord a very extreme case of blue balls and failed)

[Morithias]

Olentu, I think you and I have a different definition of intimidation than morthias does. I think what she is saying that if the players in her (I think it's a her?) group start pulling things like shivering touch on BBEGs then she starts playing at an even level. Instead of using a rouge 8 she goes with an assassin optimized for death attack. Instead of a blaster sorc lobbing fireballs, we see a battlefield control wizard with glitterdust and black tentacles

The "intimidation" she is talking about is making sure that players are aware that the more higher they optimize their characters the more she optimizes hers.

Finally, I do not believe she is sending npc god-mode hit squads after the players just because they use things like shivering touch (unless of course they tried to give the local crime lord a very extreme case of blue balls and failed)

I only send those out when people start breaking the story. I usually give warnings, and ask them to tone it down. Overall I haven't had any real problems yet.

Hell half of the party in the Hulks of Zoretha campaign died...but my god that was an epic ending. 5 PCs versus all 5 of the Hulks. The combat took like I think 14 rounds.

[Emperor Tippy]

If Shivering Touch was a 9th spell level people would still prepare it

Doubtful.

A wizard generally has at best 7 9th level spells (Gray Elf Generalist with 20 base Int).

Of that you need at least 2 spent on Shapechange with a Greater Rod of Extend so that you can keep it up for 8 hours in a day.

If your DM won't let you use an Airweird from MM2 to get Foresight then you need at least one spent on that.

If your DM won't let you use Wish from a Zodar then you need to spend at least one spot on Wish as your emergency card.

That is 4 out of 7 slots. Disjunction and two Time Stops is all 7 filled.

A wizard can end up getting the necessary buff's up without expending daily spell slots (create a couple Ice Assassin's of yourself with Occular Spell, Extend Spell, and Arcane Thesis: Shapechange, Foresight, etc. and have them buff you, storing them in a portable hole or the like when not needed) but doing that probably should not be assumed as the norm in play.

Now Maximized and Chained Shivering Touch would be worthy of a 9th level slot.

---
The best users of Shivering Touch are actually 11+ level Factotum's. They can use Cunning Insight along with True Strike (if necessary) to practically guarantee that the touch attack hits and spend the IP for Cunning Breach to ignore SR. Throw on Maximized Spell-Like Ability and Reach Spell for a no save, no SR, 30 ft. ranged attack against touch AC with an additional +30 or so to the attack roll.

An 18th level Factotum can chain that. Sure he can only do that once per day but it's basically 18 points of Dex damage to 18 foes within a 30 ft. range.

[Perseus]

It's not about 'winning' it about making it clear to the players I don't accept cheap mary-sue style playing like this.

Imagine if you said "do whatever" to a player, and one player showed up with Pun-Pun.

Are you seriously not going to stop him?

That's the same way with me, and shivering touch and other such non-cinematic and cheap tricks.

You have the right approach, I had a DM that allowed anything RAW so I made my druid a planar Shepard.

If life gives you lemons, and DMs give you free reign...

[Talya]

Doubtful.

A wizard generally has at best 7 9th level spells (Gray Elf Generalist with 20 base Int).

Of that you need at least 2 spent on Shapechange with a Greater Rod of Extend so that you can keep it up for 8 hours in a day.


At 10 minutes/level, 20th level wizard's extended shapechange lasts for 6 hours, 40 minutes. 2 of them are 13 hours, 20 minutes.

[Emperor Tippy]

At 10 minutes/level, 20th level wizard's extended shapechange lasts for 6 hours, 40 minutes. 2 of them are 13 hours, 20 minutes.

Yeah, I was sleepy and wasn't thinking. Even if you don't still have two Shapechange spells prepared, it's not like you have the slots to make preparing Shivering Touch in a 9th level spell slot worthwhile unless you have a specific purpose for its use in mind.

It's kinda like Ice Assassin or Imprisonment. Ice Assassin is a great spell but it should pretty much only be prepared when you have downtime and a specific use for it in mind, it's not a combat spell (at least not for Wizard's, a Psion can throw out an Ice Assassin of anything that they want in 1 round and 1 standard action).

Imprisonment is great if you are going to be dealing with a Lich or other difficult to kill regenerator/respawner but it isn't something that you should prepare on a daily basis.

Honestly, if you aren't adventuring it's 3 extended Shapechange's, a Wish, a Disjunction, and the rest Time Stops. You should have Shapechange up all day (and through that, Foresight) and use that to cover most of your spellcasting. The rest are for real emergencies.

[olentu]

Olentu, I think you and I have a different definition of intimidation than morthias does. I think what she is saying that if the players in her (I think it's a her?) group start pulling things like shivering touch on BBEGs then she starts playing at an even level. Instead of using a rouge 8 she goes with an assassin optimized for death attack. Instead of a blaster sorc lobbing fireballs, we see a battlefield control wizard with glitterdust and black tentacles

The "intimidation" she is talking about is making sure that players are aware that the more higher they optimize their characters the more she optimizes hers.

Finally, I do not believe she is sending npc god-mode hit squads after the players just because they use things like shivering touch (unless of course they tried to give the local crime lord a very extreme case of blue balls and failed)

All of the comments made by morthias fit my definition of intimidation quite well. However, as I said, I am fine with it because the players have been informed about those tactics before hand and have, presumably without coercion, agreed to play the game. They knew what they were getting into.

[ryu]

And so we've reached the point of finally talking about legitimate playstyle differences. I wouldn't be interested in being a pawn in a movie, especially if I can predict its happenings. I already have movies wherein I can watch various types of predetermined climax happen and with higher production values than any DM on the surface of this planet would be likely to pull off on a practical level. Considering that point of view what can D&D 3.5 specifically do that a movie really just can't? Why to be a game of course. Games have many ways of playing them, and my particular style involves experimenting with a game's rules over time to test the limits of what can be done. When this actually happens to full payoff in game? The thrill is basically what I imagine chess masters feel when they go up against each other except here there's even MORE ''moves'' to consider.

[Talya]

All of the comments made by morthias fit my definition of intimidation quite well. However, as I said, I am fine with it because the players have been informed about those tactics before hand and have, presumably without coercion, agreed to play the game. They knew what they were getting into.

I totally understand the need to continue challenging the players for the game to be fun. I also fully agree that some things are "cheesy." My cheese tolerance at the table is fairly low, but my optimization tolerance is fairly high. Picking a place to daw the line is often hard, but when I draw it, it's an inflexible line. I don't compensate by putting cheese in encounters, too. I ban it. Below that line though, it's a tough call.

The problem for a DM (and the players) is this: It is the player's goal to be effective and to succeed. While it is not the DM's goal to defeat the players (she can do so trivially if she wishes), it is her goal to continue to make the game challenging and fun. But if the players optimization level improves, you have to make the challenges harder, which defeats the purpose of optimizing. In theory, if you all played completely unoptimized monks, are you going to make the challenges weaker to accomodate them? You either have to do so, or you teach them how monks suck very quickly.

I believe a certain level of system mastery needs to be rewarded. Players should not be penalized for good strategic or tactical focus. So how do you keep challenging them without removing the reward of feeling more effective? (The same applies to levelling and such).

I think there's a couple things you can do: First you absolutely need to show them how effective their new abilities are every once in a while against things that used to give them fits. An easy encounter every once in a while isn't horrible. Secondly, you let them face more rewarding encounters instead of just harder ones. Instead of making monster X harder, have them face two of them, for double the reward in both XP and treasure.

[JaronK]

My feeling, at least, is that if you penalize the players for one shotting your big monster (such as Shivering Touch/Lahm's Finger Darts on a Dragon) by sending one shot killers against them, the message you send is that they should beat your challenges... but slowly. And not obviously. And now they're metagaming. "I know how I could win here, but I won't, because the DM will kill me if I do through arbitrary means" is not role playing. Your character wouldn't think that way. So you force metagaming by doing this.

I'd say it's far better to just have harder enemies who can protect themselves against the instant win conditions, but to give the players the easy win sometimes when they figure something out. If you have to ban a spell here or there, fine, but sending one shot killers against them in retaliation for their clever use of tactics and abilities at their disposal is definitely problematic, I'd say.

JaronK