How to deal with magic mart?

[Hyena]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

[Gavinfoxx]

People can buy whatever they want, but it is all one off custom orders. You have to go to a town where there are a number of spellcasters which work together to craft magic items, give them money, and however many days it takes to make the items, you pick up the items.

[Tvtyrant]

Just don't be surprised when your primary casters begin selling their now exclusive magic items for a massive profit.

[Grinner]

I think that's the legacy of theoretical character building. People just assume they can get those things, because, hey, it's right there in the DMG. The problem is that it's called the Dungeon Master's Guide for a reason.

The assumption of widely available, powerful magic is also what results in the Tippyverse.

So really, you've got two options: either put your foot down and say no, or adapt the setting around the availability of cheap magic.

[ericgrau]

People can buy whatever they want, but it is all one off custom orders. You have to go to a town where there are a number of spellcasters which work together to craft magic items, give them money, and however many days it takes to make the items, you pick up the items.

This. Or for small purchases a magic mart isn't so unreasonable. You could also randomly generate a list. I have a generator in my sig but IIRC it got kinda funky if you picked too specific or too general of a list, so try it both ways and filter it out yourself. It would probably be better to stick to 3,000 gp and below as the Player's Handbook suggests and then have everything else crafted by special order from a named NPC with a background, limitations, place in society, etc. He might not only be a crafter or salesman either.

[Story]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Or you could just say that Artificers are a thing as are interplanar trading networks. There's no real problem with magic mart in the default setting.

[johnbragg]

Just don't be surprised when your primary casters begin selling their now exclusive magic items for a massive profit.

Oberoni can fix this:

There are a limited number of folks who have both A) significant disposable cash and B) a need for combat items. Reduce that number by C=the fraction of those folks who can either craft their own or have access to someone who can craft their items. Tarquin isn't paying list price for items--he Knows A Guy. Same for Bozzok (Thieves Guild of Greysky City), or Redcloak, or O-Chul.

There can also be a backfire effect if a PC sells a magic item that was crafted for him--that's a huge insult to the crafter and his skills, like an aunt who gets offended that you re-gifted the vase she gave you. That PC may have a very rough time finding someone else willing to build him an item for money if they're in the same area as the respected craftsman they offended.

Don't make the modern-economy assumption that people in a non-modern economy are as motivated by money.

So you can set up a situation where some items--potions, common scrolls, +1 common weapons, +1 leather armor, +1 chainmail, +1 shield--are available "off the rack", and traders and merchants will be willing to buy and sell and haggle. Other things, if you want it you have to arrange to have it created. Those things are also a lot harder to sell--buyers with a need and with the cash are hard to find.

There might even be a social stigma to wearing and using items that you didn't "earn." Reference GAme of Thrones and the Iron Islanders.

[Hyena]

Well, my setting is Azeroth. That's World of Warcraft, just in case you don't know because you have a life.

[Tvtyrant]

Oberoni can fix this:

There are a limited number of folks who have both A) significant disposable cash and B) a need for combat items. Reduce that number by C=the fraction of those folks who can either craft their own or have access to someone who can craft their items. Tarquin isn't paying list price for items--he Knows A Guy. Same for Bozzok (Thieves Guild of Greysky City), or Redcloak, or O-Chul.

There can also be a backfire effect if a PC sells a magic item that was crafted for him--that's a huge insult to the crafter and his skills, like an aunt who gets offended that you re-gifted the vase she gave you. That PC may have a very rough time finding someone else willing to build him an item for money if they're in the same area as the respected craftsman they offended.

Don't make the modern-economy assumption that people in a non-modern economy are as motivated by money.

Or my players could (and have) take 10 minutes to overthrow the local government and set up a state which buys eternal torches from them as a monopoly, and absorbs the prices of item creation through taxes.

Player characters can get a lot done in a low magic world.

[johnbragg]

Or my players could (and have) take 10 minutes to overthrow the local government and set up a state which buys eternal torches from them as a monopoly, and absorbs the prices of item creation through taxes.

Player characters can get a lot done in a low magic world.

So now, as DM, you're set for adventure hooks basically forever, as the PCs are now the targets of everyone who was invested in the old government/society, and everyone who saw what they did and figures they can do the same.

[Grinner]

Well, my setting is Azeroth. That's World of Warcraft, just in case you don't know because you have a life.

Have you tried framing certain items as being local specialties? You could justify it as being a local abundance of ingredients or the trade secret of a local craftsman.

[SimonMoon6]

My only suggestion to someone who doesn't like the buying and selling of magic items in 3.x is... don't use 3.x as your game system.

Seriously, it's so built into the game system that removing it creates a number of balance issues. Non-casters are already low tier; taking away their ability to buy magic items just makes them even worse. There are certain abilities that everyone needs; the casters already have those abilities while the non-casters have to buy them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Say the PCs discover magical loot they're not going to use, so they sell it in town for half its value. That merchant who purchased it will have another adventurer come along who wants just such an item, and is willing to pay full price for it. This type of business is extremely lucrative, so of course someone will be doing it. Chances are there's a powerful organization maintaining a monopoly on buying and selling of magic items, and anyone in the business is somehow connected to them. There would be an inventory kept of each item for sale, so if an adventurer wants a given item they would know if they have one on hand at any shop connected to that organization.

The standard NPC spellcasting rates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for Teleportation Circle + Permanency would be 25,880 gp. Given the value of their merchandise and the risk of loss due to theft, each shop's inventory would be consolidated to one central, strongly guarded location. Each such shop would be connected via a permanent Teleportation Circle. A given merchant would check his inventory list for the requested item (the inventory is hidden by Secret Page or similar), and tell them he has one 'in the back'. He scurries off to the back room while his assistant keeps them company, he hops on the teleportation circle, and lands in a locked room at the secure warehouse. After presenting credentials to prove he's there legitimately (or just handing over the item's payment), he's given the item in question and takes a step to the right onto the teleportation circle which sends him back to his shop. His clients are none the wiser, and they go on their way as happy customers.

IF there is no such super-powerful magic-item-market-monopolizing organization in your setting, then your PCs will most likely create one once they have the sufficient level and resources to do so. From there the game would monte-haul out of control and be ruined, so you need to include something like this to prevent that from happening. Keep in mind that this organization would have nothing against anyone creating and selling items, but there wouldn't be anyone willing to purchase an item looted on an adventure for a fair price without a buyer already lined up unless they were a part of such an organization.


Edit, just noticed:

Well, my setting is Azeroth. That's World of Warcraft, just in case you don't know because you have a life.

In that case, they can use the auction house (which is connected across all the major cities) to sell and even buy just about anything. D&D items are neither BoP nor BoE, so literally anything could be bought or sold via the auction house.

[Jack_Simth]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".
From the metagame perspective, the Magic Mart exists in most campaigns because after you've done it two or three times, you generally stop being interested in role-playing seeking out a wizard and convincing him to upgrade your sword (or your cloak, or your gloves, or your armor, or...). It gets boring. Additionally, the DMG actually does have some magic mart mentality built in - it's the gold piece limit in the section on cities, and it pretty much says that anything within the gold piece limit should be available there.

Further, while it might not seem logical on the surface, it can be made feasible. You have a central repository somewhere. Only authorized personnel have access, so this thing is trapped to high heaven. Additionally, the only way in or out is with teleportation... and even that is restricted to certain areas (down tunnels, which are trapped to high heaven). In the center of all this sits a wizard and several golems under his command.

Down the tunnels are Ring Gates (which face away from the storage area). Each storefront has a matching end, a cursed Portable Hole (it ejects the contents back onto the material plane a minute after it is closed), and a catalog.

The man at the desk at the storefront, takes your order and your cash, writes it down, puts it all in the portable hole, and tosses it through the ring gate.

At the other end, a golem opens it up and displays things for the Wizard. Anything magical is ID'd by the Wizard (Arcane Sight to find them, Analyze Dweomer to check them). The Wizard then has the golem handle things, fetch the order, put the stuff back into the portable hole, and send the portable hole back through the ring gate.

The man at the desk in the storefront then unpacks the portable hole and takes you your order.


There are things displayed in the storefront... but those are things that are cursed to the point of being unsaleable to anyone other than an artificer.

Prices are fixed - by the wizard who's running the thing. The man at the front desk can't really bargain - it's not his stuff. Charming/Dominating him won't help. If you try to rob the guy at the storefront... you get the reward for taking down a 3rd level Expert, half of a ring gate, and a cursed portable hole. Additionally, you now have a very powerful wizard that needs to make an example of you so that he doesn't lose the rest of his hirelings (and none of them will ever trade with you again).

If you try to crack the fortress... well, it's really only the wizard and his golems that have access to the place. Symbol traps are cheap, and can be attuned to a number of individuals. Magic Device Traps are a bit more expensive, but can also be tuned effectively. Oh yes, and as the only way in is by teleportation, you can't do Disable Device until after you're there... which means you need to soak 20 or so different saves as soon as you arrive.

[Black Jester]

Do not let magic become a commodity. Magical items should never be bought and sold like milk and eggs. Allowing PCs of any level to simply purchase magical items, or even to purchase magical supplies such as quills and inks for writing scrolls, takes some of the mystique away from magic and makes the whole world seem a little more commonplace.

It is not necessary to stubbornly forbid the buying and selling of magic; the key to keeping magic fanciful is to make sure that any transaction is an adventure of a sort.

Magical supplies should never have clearly marked prices and be sold from neatly arranged shelves — that’s too such like a modern supermarket. Instead, things such as spell components, quills, and exotic inks should be available only at specialty shops run by would-be wizards or retired adventures. Barter or intense haggling should be the norm.

This might be old advice, but truer words on the issue are very hard to find.
This is how the game should be run. The acquisition of magical items is one of the driving forces of the game - and as such should never, ever be trivialized. Reducing magic to a mere commodity makes it a dull, boring and a lot less magical, or to summarize: In a good D&D game, the best way to purchase a magical item you have not won through shedding blood, sweat and tears (preferably someone else's, of course) is to have an equally awesome item to trade it for.

[PinkysBrain]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".
There are a small handful of magic mart emporiums across the realms, magic items aren't stored in medieval wooden store fronts ... they're stored in forbiddanced magical vaults guarded by retired adventurers and hired extraplanar heavy weights.

When you pull up to the local magic mart you place your order and everything apart from level 1 potions and scrolls is delivered to you through magical means (teleportation circles, teleporting courier, Eberron's magical vault system etc).

Alternatively, don't allow non casters so everyone can be relatively self-sufficient without appropriate magic items.

Alternatively, drop what you think your players need.

Alternatively, take a wish list from your players.

Alternatively, make crafting massively less time consuming and give everyone crafting XP per level which they can use for say half of their WBL items.

Alternatively, massively screw over all the non casters.

Questing for everything you want/need at high level in a party of 4 players in 3e is complete lunacy. Big six upgrades alone would leave you no time for a campaign.

[Gnaeus]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

So what is your question, exactly? A couple of these have been answered to a greater or lesser degree, but is it:

How do I justify having a magic mart/not having a magic mart in a logical way?

or

What are the game repercussions to magic mart/lack of magic mart and/or how do I avoid them?

or something else. There are certainly logical ways to avoid having magic marts, but they create their own issues.

[Clistenes]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

Simple. Don't use them. They don't make sense. There can't be shops selling items as expensive as the whole kingdom's GDP.

I like to remind people that a +2 weapon is worth more than, 8,000 gp, which is more than 160 pounds/72 kilograms of pure gold, the third-fourth part of the price of a small keep or castle, money enough to hire a hundred 10-level knights for forty days or a thousand light footmen for the same time.

That means that only kings and dukes can afford magical weapons.

Low level Wizards, Clerics, Magewrights and Adepts probably craft very low level magic items for rich people, usually on order.

The few mid-level spellcasters that do exist probably craft some low level items sometimes, to gain some coin, but they wouldn't probably bother crafting mid or high-level items, since they get the same gp per day crafting a single +5 sword than crafting twenty-five +1 swords, and anyways, there isn't demand those mid and high-level items. They could work on demand, however.

Anyways, once the Wizards and Clerics hit 9th level they get Raise Dead and Teleport and Fabricate, and they are filthy rich: The Clerics can demand money for resurrecting rich people, and the Wizards can break the market Teleporting expensive wares with the help of Bags of Holding, or creating anything with Fabricate. Those folks don't craft anymore, they are beyond that.

Some very rich merchants probably keep small caches of low level magical items for their richest customers (we are speaking of international businessmen here, not village peddlers), but not mid or high-level items, because there are neither demand nor spellcaster willing to make them.

Temples and churches probably craft some very low level potions and oils for sale, and keep caches of low level weaponry, armor and other equipment for their own Clerics and Paladins.

Elves and Dwarves probably have more magical weapons, since they can afford to work a hundred years to pay for a magical sword that they will later pass down to their children. And given their low numbers, their armies need the extra mojo to stay alive.

Mid-level magic items should be legendary relics, hoarded by kings, emperors and popes.

Where does the equipment of the adventuring parties come? well, magic items don't break, they keep existing forever.
Mages and other spellcasters craft them for themselves, and when they die, somebody else find or inherit them, and tries to sell them, but since nobody can pay them, they have to sell them for a small fraction of their true price.
Those mid or high-level magic items end in the hands of very rich merchants that know their price and keep them in their hoards, hoping to find somebody someday that will be able to pay them.
Some of those magic items will be given to kings as gifts in exchange of titles and lands.
And of course, villains seek them and try to steal them for themselves.
Sometimes a city will be looted, or a hero will be slayed, and a magic item will end in the hands of barbarians that can't understand its true price.

And of course, there is interplanar trade: Janni, Mercanes, Neogi and Witchwyrd make business with Noble Djinns and Efrits, who can create anything for free with their Wish ability, but can only use said ability for non-genies...so Mercanes and Neogi and Witchwyrd probably visit the genies bearing expensive gifts, and the genies say "We are pleased, and would like to give you a gift in exchange, what do you want?", and use their Wish ability to create anything.

But the best stuff probably come from the ruins of ancient civilizations. In almost every setting there was a very powerful and magically advanced civilization that was destroyed in and ancient past (Suel and Backlunish Empires, Sulm, Itar, the City of Summer Stars, Ishtar, Netheril, Imaskar, Narfell, Raumathar, Myth Drannor, Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Okoth, Isstosseffifil, Mhairshaulk..etc.). A lot of the stuff has probably been already looted and is kept as regalia of some kingdom or hoarded by some lich or dragon, but a lot more is probably still buried.

So, in short:

-Very low level potions an oils can be purchased in temples or fancy merchant houses.

-Low level magic items can be made on order by mages and temples.

-Temples and the richest merchansts may keep small caches of already made low level magical items.

-Dukes and counts may keep low-level items as family legacies.

-Mid and high level items are very rare, are almost never made on order (since spellcasters that powerful are very rare and don't care for money anymore), and are usually hoarded by powerful and important people.
Some are kept by kings as part of their regalia.
Some are crafted by wizards that made them for their own use.
Some are hoarded by the richest of merchants, who adquired them for a fraction of their true price and hope that someday somebody will be able to pay them.
The character may receive some of these as rewards from desperate royals or grateful mages, or will buy them from the super-rich merchants who hoarded them.

-Most mid and high level items the players will own will be found buried in dungeons, as part of dragon's hoards or among the possessions of villains. Sometimes savage raiders will have nice magical items which they looted from cities or found in ruins.

-Once you hit high levels, interplanar merchants can sell anything for the right price, if you are willing to wait a bit of time for them to find it.

[Captnq]

About 2000 years ago a wizard was making a magic item and said, "ya know, I wonder why it always takes up EXACTLY the same amount of THIS material, and yet the same amount of THIS material.

I wonder what a single unit of magic is.

So after some research he came up with what turned out to be, The Gold Piece. The single unit of magic. Turns out you can directly melt down gold for magic and same with most "valuable" materials. Then he did a bit more work and figured out what an XP was. He hired some people to "adventure" and measured them over ythe ears and took samples and used XP transfering spells and eventually discovered the XP as well.

Well, gosh darn it if the guy didn't want to publish his life's work.

Suddenly wizards, clerics, everyone really, was figuring out EXACTLY how much it took to make a given potion, or a +2 sword. In fact, some other wizards worked off of HIS calculations and discovered what a +1 actually WAS. Well, after a few short years this info trickled down to the merchants who learned how much they were being ripped off.

I paid HOW MUCH for a plus +1 dagger and it only cost WHAT???

Well, being a free market people started taking business elsewhere. Low level apprentices started under cutting higher level wizards. Suddenly there was a rebound. For a short few years there, you could actually buy some magic items for less then the cost to create them.

Well, that didn't last long. I might be a holy crusader and you might be an evil necromancer, but we each got bills to pay. And so an informal "agreement" was made. It was never written down, it was never made into a treaty or anything so formal. There was no single date. It just sort of... slid into the current state of affairs.

Magic items are made for X GP and X/25 xp and sold for 2X. Originally it was a compromise that just was "common" sense. Then it became tradition. And now it's just how things are done. Oh, occationally get you someone who gouges the prices or someone who floods the market, but that doesn't happen often. Why?

Because GOLD ITSELF IS MAGIC.

And it's a magical world. Since the value of gold is not based on rarity, but on the actual usefulness of the material itself.

If you flood the market with a million gold pieces in the real world, inflation goes crazy. If you flood the market in the fantasy world, a great deal of the gold becomes stock piled in wizards's towers/cleric's churches/dragon's hoards. What isn't stockpiled is used to make or trade for materials to make magic and actually leaves the supply FOREVER.

Now, there's only so much gold, and gold's heavy and gold isn't that effective for making magic. Wizards usually use something else when actually making something. A healing potion made from gold is kinda hard to carry around on an adventure. Still, gold is useful as a means of trade and works just fine when its used as the lubrication in the gears of commerce.

So why is there Magic Mart? Why are the prices fixed and inflation never gets out of control? Because unlike the real world where money isn't backed by anything. (You can't eat money. You can't wear it. You can't live in it.) Our money in the real world is a form of faith. Even in gold, silver, and other "hedge" forms of investment. You can't eat those.

But in D&D, you CAN make a house out of a gem. You CAN make food out of gold. You CAN wear silver. And it always takes the same amount of Gold/silver/gemstone dust/whatever.

And since everyone knows what a unit of magic is, and what an experience point is, and what a +1 is and what a level is, they know the "value" of a magic item, and thus, the price, is usually the same wherever you go.

[georgie_leech]

Nixing Magic Marts can be a problem if you try to both balance for the games math and still sustain suspension of disbelief ("gee, I can't believe we found everything we were looking for in that last dungeon!"). Personally, I said "to heck with it" and embraced it by taking a page from Castlevania. My PC's tend to run into a sleazy business man-type who turns out to be a devil who gives them a non-one-use scroll/contract that can temporarily transport them to his personal demi plane, where he sells most boring/standard magical equipment and can find more unusual acquisitions, for a favour. My PC's get the opportunity to buy and sell pretty much whatever they want, I don't need to figure out the wider economic ramifications of commonly available magic items, and I have an easy avenue to insert plot hooks if the campaign is stagnating; either I can send them off to an exotic locale to find whatever it is the devil wants, or they can barter for information on already existing plot points from his network of minions and treasure hunters.

[Telok]

So what's the value of a Deadly Precision, Last Resort, +1 ranseur?

A Shielding, Ki Focus, Aquatic Humanoid Bane, +1 (shield bonus) buckler axe?

A Bloodfeeding, Mighty Cleaving, Throwing, +2 small whip?

A Hammerblock, Spell Resistance 13, +2 bone armor?

In my games the market prices are dictated by the usefullness and rarity of the magic items, not the cost to make the item. The stuff listed above is unlikely to be bought by anyone for more than 1,000 gold, but a Belt of Battle will cost you 50,000 gp if you can find one for sale.

My personal setting has two shops that trade in magic items. One is a trader with totally random stuff who will only accept trades on stuff worth more than 1,000 gp because he can't carry a thousand pounds of gold around with him. The other is attached to a magic academy where the students have to create a permanent magic item in order to graduate, they accept raw magical material trades and issue letters of credit. Of course the second shop dosen't have anything worth more than 8,000 gp and it's inventory is semi-random. There are also three people who are available to craft many sorts of magic items if you provide the money and materials. Lastly there are about ten casters who make potions or scrolls for money, but they mostly work on comission and only have 1d4+1 lower power items on hand at any one time.

Shops? Yes, but they are more like specialist custom auto manufacturers than a supermarket.

[holywhippet]

Isn't the rule for magic marts that they have generally every item that costs X or less where X is determined by the size and prosperity of the city the store resides within? So they generally won't sell the crazy expensive items unless the city is seriously large and rich as there won't be anyone who can afford such items. Low level items which are in common use by those who can afford them would be fairly widely available.

To be honest I think magic mart does make sense to some extent in a setting where magic is fairly commonplace. I mean think it is in terms of magic vs. technology. If you wanted some specific piece of technology, it makes sense that someone would have it for sale and in a larger city it would be even more likely. If magic items can be made and they are useful it makes sense for stores to sell them. It's possible that there might not be a one stop location for all magical items and that you'll need to search through a few stores to find what you want.

If I was going to poke holes in magic costs, I'd question the cost of getting certain spells cast. Cure disease costs 150 gold to be cast on somene. But that is more than the average peasant could hope to afford. On top of that, it costs pretty much nothing for the cleric/druid to cast that spell.

[Kane0]

Use 4th Ed's Residuum. Its a currency almost specifically for enchanting (and large transactions where you cannot feasibly deal in hundreds of thousands of coins).

[holywhippet]

Use 4th Ed's Residuum. Its a currency almost specifically for enchanting (and large transactions where you cannot feasibly deal in hundreds of thousands of coins).

4th edition is even stranger for enchanted items and costs though. The cost of enchanting an item is the same as amount the item costs to buy. If you sell it you get only 1/5 of the value of the item. Magic mart makes no sense under those circumstances as nobody can make a profit on selling items they've enchanted themself. Selling an item means losing money and disenchanting the item yourself gives you residuum worth 1/5 of the item you just trashed.

[Grinner]

4th edition is even stranger for enchanted items and costs though. The cost of enchanting an item is the same as amount the item costs to buy. If you sell it you get only 1/5 of the value of the item. Magic mart makes no sense under those circumstances as nobody can make a profit on selling items they've enchanted themself. Selling an item means losing money and disenchanting the item yourself gives you residuum worth 1/5 of the item you just trashed.

Fortunately, economists have defeated that issue; it's called markup. By throwing off the inexplicable market forces responsible for fixing prices in markets everywhere and just asking for more money, wizards throughout the lands have made actual profits.

Or, y'know, you could just remember that it's a game. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

Pet artificer.

Association with a mage's guild for commissioning magic items in exchange for paying the XP cost themselves. (You said WoW instead of regular old Warcraft, so you can't sneeze without hitting high level warlocks or mages or druids or priests, after all. There's tons of adventurers of even non-magic-using classes which are crafting all the time between adventures...)

VoP Fixes for everyone.


Oberoni can fix this:

You mean the DM can rejigger the game or use rule 0 to fix it. :smalltongue: Oberoni's not doing anything for you, because you (probably) can't afford his time even if you could track him down.

[Sith_Happens]

In that case, they can use the auction house (which is connected across all the major cities) to sell and even buy just about anything. D&D items are neither BoP nor BoE, so literally anything could be bought or sold via the auction house.

Seriously this. Your campaign is based on a game where gear is 95% of your character, and you think 3.5 has too much item availability?

[Coidzor]

In that case, they can use the auction house (which is connected across all the major cities) to sell and even buy just about anything. D&D items are neither BoP nor BoE, so literally anything could be bought or sold via the auction house.Seriously this. Your campaign is based on a game where gear is 95% of your character, and you think 3.5 has too much item availability?

Excellent points.

:smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Seriously this. Your campaign is based on a game where gear is 95% of your character, and you think 3.5 has too much item availability?

Maybe he'll make his PCs kill the same bosses over and over until they drop the items their characters need?

Edit: So much for suspension of disbelief.

[angry_bear]

Well, my setting is Azeroth. That's World of Warcraft, just in case you don't know because you have a life.

The races of Azeroth are always in a constant arms race. If the Blood Elves don't continue making better and better weapons, they'll be overwhelmed by Naga or Undead, or an opportunistic raid by Night Elves. Orcs and Humans are constantly at war with each other, and have to deal with races like the Murloc, Quillboar, Ogres, and a number of other savage kin who're looking to be king of the hill. This isn't even mentioning the constant threat of near gawd like entities like Ragnaros, Deathwing, or The Burning Legion waiting to annihilate or enslave every last being on the planet.

Honestly, being able to get your hands on weapons and armour in Azeroth makes more sense than most typical settings.

[Emperor Tippy]

Make a Simulacrum of a Hound Archon and give it a bag of holding. It can now pick up and deliver to anywhere on the plane that isn't protected against teleportation, and do so at will.

Make an Ice Assassin of a Solar and give it the feat Tenacious Magic: Permanency.

In addition to being a very nasty guard for the magic mart, anyone willing to pay the shop say 10,000 GP can get a Tenacious Magic Permanent Telepathic Bond with the shop owner. Now they can buy and sell magic items from anywhere that teleport isn't blocked and is on the same plane.

Need to buy a magic item? Well you just send off the request and the delivery boy appears one round later to collect payment. You drop the gold in his bag and it takes it back to the shop, counts it, and collects the magic item before delivering it to you. Guaranteed to deliver any item within a minute of the request being made (if you can pay, aren't under teleport blockers, and are on the plane).

Want to sell an item. Well the same thing happens except in reverse with the item being thrown onto the Analyze Dweomer trap to divine its true value.

If you can afford the initial fee then the convenience of Tippy Adventuring Services can't be beat. We offer banking, item purchase and sale, information, news, job offerings, resurrection services, secure meeting places, spell casting services, delivery services, and any other service that we could find a way to make a GP on.

A PC who wants to can set up such a service across the entire prime material at level 11 entirely out of native resources.

[Morithias]

Make a Simulacrum of a Hound Archon and give it a bag of holding. It can now pick up and deliver to anywhere on the plane that isn't protected against teleportation, and do so at will.

Make an Ice Assassin of a Solar and give it the feat Tenacious Magic: Permanency.

In addition to being a very nasty guard for the magic mart, anyone willing to pay the shop say 10,000 GP can get a Tenacious Magic Permanent Telepathic Bond with the shop owner. Now they can buy and sell magic items from anywhere that teleport isn't blocked and is on the same plane.

Need to buy a magic item? Well you just send off the request and the delivery boy appears one round later to collect payment. You drop the gold in his bag and it takes it back to the shop, counts it, and collects the magic item before delivering it to you. Guaranteed to deliver any item within a minute of the request being made (if you can pay, aren't under teleport blockers, and are on the plane).

Want to sell an item. Well the same thing happens except in reverse with the item being thrown onto the Analyze Dweomer trap to divine its true value.

If you can afford the initial fee then the convenience of Tippy Adventuring Services can't be beat. We offer banking, item purchase and sale, information, news, job offerings, resurrection services, secure meeting places, spell casting services, delivery services, and any other service that we could find a way to make a GP on.

A PC who wants to can set up such a service across the entire prime material at level 11 entirely out of native resources.

Apparently despite being a great Emperor you cannot read.

In the opening post that was edited at 4:38 Pm. The OP clearly puts.


I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

Your post was put at 9:47 PM.

Read the opening post next time. Your munchkin ways are not what everyone wants Tippy.

[ryu]

Apparently despite being a great Emperor you cannot read.

In the opening post that was edited at 4:38 Pm. The OP clearly puts.



Your post was put at 9:47 PM.

Read the opening post next time. Your munchkin ways are not what everyone wants Tippy.

Well that's a bit overly combative for a friendly forum wherein no party had actually cast aspersions on each other as yet.

[Morithias]

Well that's a bit overly combative for a friendly forum wherein no party had actually cast aspersions on each other as yet.

Perhaps, but considering he blatantly ignored the original post, to post yet another one of his "Tippyverse" fixes.

It would be like if I went into the "make a world without sexism" thread and posted the Bouji setting. Which is probably the most sexist setting ever created. It might as well been a bad pornographic exploitation setting.

I'm just saying, not everyone wants to play like him, and he needs to stop using the "Tippyverse" as the solution to everything, especially when the OP CLEARLY STATES THAT THEY DON'T WANT IT.

[Emperor Tippy]

Apparently despite being a great Emperor you cannot read.

In the opening post that was edited at 4:38 Pm. The OP clearly puts.
I read it.

The truth is that the magic mart is an emergent property of the D&D rule set and it emerges from fairly deep in that rule set. If you want to get rid of it them pretty much your only option is to just use DM fiat and say "No, no magic mart for anyone. X is how you can get magic items. And no, you can't create magic mart either."

But frankly, seeing as this is Azeroth; the Auction House is a thing in the setting. And that is pretty much the definition of a world spanning magic mart.


Your post was put at 9:47 PM.

Read the opening post next time. Your munchkin ways are not what everyone wants Tippy.

Ah so it's munchkin to assume that the PC's exist in a living world where profit is actually a motivating factor and people have brains?

---
If you don't want "magic mart" in your game than rule zero it away. Good luck making that decision appear to actually be rational to the world though unless you are cutting out good chunks of 3.5.

[Morithias]

I read it.

The truth is that the magic mart is an emergent property of the D&D rule set and it emerges from fairly deep in that rule set. If you want to get rid of it them pretty much your only option is to just use DM fiat and say "No, no magic mart for anyone. X is how you can get magic items. And no, you can't create magic mart either."

But frankly, seeing as this is Azeroth; the Auction House is a thing in the setting. And that is pretty much the definition of a world spanning magic mart.

Ah so it's munchkin to assume that the PC's exist in a living world where profit is actually a motivating factor and people have brains?

---
If you don't want "magic mart" in your game than rule zero it away. Good luck making that decision appear to actually be rational to the world though unless you are cutting out good chunks of 3.5.

No the auction house is a thing in the MMORPG. I highly doubt it actually exists in-universe. I would love to see them try to justify that.

There's a fine line between "rational world" and "everyone is a powergamer."

I occasionally have my shops give discounts, because the crafters can make stuff cheaper. Someone of higher skill being able to make something cheaper? That's logical.

Someone abusing a weird chain of spells, to break the economy in two? That's munchkin.

There's a fine line between what you posted, and my crafters having the magical artisan feat.

I wouldn't even care, if the OP hadn't SINGLED YOU OUT, and preemptively called you on it.

When people are basically telling you to stay out of discussions before you even show up, you might want to consider different styles of play.

[Emperor Tippy]

Perhaps, but considering he blatantly ignored the original post, to post yet another one of his "Tippyverse" fixes.

It would be like if I went into the "make a world without sexism" thread and posted the Bouji setting. Which is probably the most sexist setting ever created. It might as well been a bad pornographic exploitation setting.

I'm just saying, not everyone wants to play like him, and he needs to stop using the "Tippyverse" as the solution to everything, especially when the OP CLEARLY STATES THAT THEY DON'T WANT IT.

...
"I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand"."

Straight from the OP.

Magic Mart (in one of any number of forms) is the logical outcome and its lack breaks suspension of disbelief. Especially in any setting connected to the Great Wheel.

1) Non charged magic items last until destroyed.
2) Individuals create magic items in any number of ways.
3) Most magic items are worth more money than 99%+ of the worlds population will ever see.
4) There exists a significant market (as measured in GP) for said items on a world wide scale.
5) Most people with magic items gain little benefit from those items and would gain more benefit from other items.
6) The population that wants to buy magic items is very rich and powerful.
7) Rich and powerful people do not like to be inconvenienced and are even willing to pay to not be.

What is the result of those 7 points? Magic Mart. It's the logical outcome.

---
Let's say Lord Fighty McStabbity, Champion of the King (10th level) needs a new sword so he goes and finds someone who can make it for him. This sword costs him 12,000 GP to commission. Otherwise known as the equivalent as the total production of a master farmer (5th level commoner with Skill Focus: Profession (Farming), max ranks in Profession (Farming), and a masterwork tool means that the farmer makes 600 GP per year on average) for 20 years. The total economic value of one peasant for his entire working life is equal to that single sword.

In real life that is a 2 million dollar or so purchase.

Now unless deliberately broken or the like, that sword will likely last several thousand years.

So Fighty gets his sword and dies on a battlefield where it ends up dropped and picked up by some no name warrior who would very much like to sell the sword and retire to a life of luxury instead of risking his life on a daily basis with his shiny new magic sword. So he looks around a bit and sells it to a broker who gives him about half its value.

Said broker has the reach and contacts to eventually find a buyer for the sword at its full price, say Fighty McStabbity 2.0. Now Fighty 2 only uses one sword at a time and his shiny new blade is much better than his old blade. That old blade cost 8,000 GP to make so the broker is willing to give him 4,000 GP off of the shiny new sword in exchange for the old blade. Well Fighty 2.0 has no use for the old sword and this lets him save some gold so he hands over 8K GP and his old sword to the broker and goes on his way.

Now the broker has made money (2,000 GP in cash) and has a new sword to trade.

The thing is though, once you start trading in magic items measured in the tens of thousand of GP, you don't have a large market. A Metropolis of 26,000 might have 500 people in it that actually have the wealth to purchase such an item, and of that less than half would have any real use for something like that sword. This means a need for a larger market, hence plane spanning teleportation networks and Tippy's Magical Concierge Service.

There is also planar travel. If a wizard of, say, 10th level needs a magic item then he isn't going to look at the marketplace in his local metropolis. He is going to teleport to a portal to Sigil, Union, or the City of Brass and do his shopping there (or in Azeroth, the Auction house).

You don't buy and sell nations (and make no mistake, in high level D&D that's what the wealth and items on the table means) in the back of seedy bars and small shops, you do it in boardrooms, exclusive private clubs, and by appointment only with agents that need recommendations from trusted clients.

[Morithias]

Metropolis of 26000 people you say?

Alright let's do some math.

"To determine the amount of ready cash in a community, or the total value of ANY GIVEN ITEM OF EQUIPMENT FOR SALE AT A GIVEN TIME, multiply half the gp limit by 1/10 of the community's population."

A metropolis has a GP limit of 100,000 gp, so 50,000 and 1/10 the population of 26000 is 2600.

2600 * 50,000 = 130,000,000 gp, in the market of this city. 130 MILLION gold pieces in circulation.

Source: Core book, DMG, page 137.

Unless I'm misreading that line, I should be able to find a +80 sword in that city for sale.

Sqrt (130,000,000/20000) = Sqrt 6500 = 80.6225774829855

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Metropolis of 26000 people you say?

Alright let's do some math.

"To determine the amount of ready cash in a community, or the total value of ANY GIVEN ITEM OF EQUIPMENT FOR SALE AT A GIVEN TIME, multiply half the gp limit by 1/10 of the community's population."

A metropolis has a GP limit of 100,000 gp, so 50,000 and 1/10 the population of 26000 is 2600.

2600 * 50,000 = 130,000,000 gp, in the market of this city. 130 MILLION gold pieces in circulation.

Source: Core book, DMG, page 137.

Unless I'm misreading that line, I should be able to find a +80 sword in that city for sale.

Exactly, so any given item worth up to 130 million gp should be available for purchase in such a city. Every magic item in the DMG, every magic item in MIC, is within this limit, so any such item should be on a store shelf with a price tag attached somewhere in such a city. As long as all the items your party seeks have a total cost of no more than 130 million gp, they can go shopping in the above city and purchase everything they want. So why wouldn't there be magic mart shops selling magic items?

[Morithias]

Exactly, so any given item worth up to 130 million gp should be available for purchase in such a city. Every magic item in the DMG, every magic item in MIC, is within this limit, so any such item should be on a store shelf with a price tag attached somewhere in such a city. As long as all the items your party seeks have a total cost of no more than 130 million gp, they can go shopping in the above city and purchase everything they want. So why wouldn't there be magic mart shops selling magic items?

*Shrugs* It's what the OP wants. Quite frankly with the kind of money you can make crafting items and selling them, I could see quite a few mages settling down and selling stuff, just crafting all day.

Hell I once played a party like chumps by having the shopkeeper ask for less than book value, because she had the artisan feats. The party almost passed up the deal because they were so certain they were cursed or fake items.

Heh I just realized due to the "1/10" and "1/2" thing.

100,000/10/2 = 5000 gp.

The average cash on hand of a person in that city is 5000 gp.

Of course there would be deviation due to classes, and such, but yeah.

I'll have to check cityscape to see what the variant on wealth is in a city, I don't think it's in the DMG.

[AuraTwilight]

You know, Morithias, for someone who doesn't want Tippyverse stuff to overtake the OP's thread, it was kind of a non-issue until you made it into an aggressive argument. He made one post...and then you made it into a two-post subject.

You weren't only rude, but counter-productive to your stated motivation in being so.

[Emperor Tippy]

Metropolis of 26000 people you say?

Alright let's do some math.

"To determine the amount of ready cash in a community, or the total value of ANY GIVEN ITEM OF EQUIPMENT FOR SALE AT A GIVEN TIME, multiply half the gp limit by 1/10 of the community's population."

A metropolis has a GP limit of 100,000 gp, so 50,000 and 1/10 the population of 26000 is 2600.

2600 * 50,000 = 130,000,000 gp, in the market of this city. 130 MILLION gold pieces in circulation.

Source: Core book, DMG, page 137.
And the most expensive single item in the city that is for sale has a price tag of 100,000 GP.

The total coinage readily available to the entire city; including the government and every single individual inside of it is 130 million GP.

This is also exactly the kind of place that you would expect to find a storefront for a world and plane spanning magical mart. It's the kind of place where there are individuals who can be anywhere else in the entire Great Wheel in 12 seconds.

Just because a hundred thousand GP sword can be bought in the marketplace doesn't mean that a hundred thousand GP sword is sitting in the market place.


*Shrugs* It's what the OP wants. Quite frankly with the kind of money you can make crafting items and selling them, I could see quite a few mages settling down and selling stuff, just crafting all day.

Hell I once played a party like chumps by having the shopkeeper ask for less than book value, because she had the artisan feats. The party almost passed up the deal because they were so certain they were cursed or fake items.

Heh I just realized due to the "1/10" and "1/2" thing.

100,000/10/2 = 5000 gp.

The average cash on hand of a person in that city is 5000 gp.
For the time and effort invested only chumps make magic items.

A level 9 wizard with Fabricate can produce Adamantine full plate in under a minute with a single spell and make 10,000 GP for the day. Until epic the best magic items can do per day is 1,000 GP in value.

There is also no XP cost and no feats needed.

Making magic items costs power in a real way and takes a ton of time.

[Morithias]

You know, Morithias, for someone who doesn't want Tippyverse stuff to overtake the OP's thread, it was kind of a non-issue until you made it into an aggressive argument. He made one post...and then you made it into a two-post subject.

You weren't only rude, but counter-productive to your stated motivation in being so.

You're right. See you. Sorry.

[JoshuaZ]

There are a bunch of ways of doing this. One is to reduce the overall level of NPCs. If the setting has very few NPCs with lots of item creation feats that helps. For example, in the setting I'm currently running, "magicians" are substantially more common than wizards. A magician is essentially like an adept but with the wizard/sorcerer list, and with a few other restrictions (they don't actually regain all spells daily, just a subset), and very few of them are beyond level 4 or 5. Wizards exist in setting but they are less common (PCs and major NPCs), and high level ones nearly non-existent.

Another thing you can do is make some items simply not magical. So to back to the setting in question, +1 weapons can be non-magical if they are made by really skilled weaponsmiths with the best materials. Similarly, a few of the more easily refluffable weapons bonuses such as keen are refluffed to be non-magical.

This doesn't solve everything, but it does deal with part of the situation. In my particular campaign, the PCs have a sometimes ally who doesn't want to get too involved in combat but happens to be one of the more powerful wizards in setting, and is a skilled archaeologist who has hired adventurers in the past to go investigate locations. She has a large a number of items so they can buy some items from her at close to market price. One of the PCs also has a bunch of item creation feats, as does another allied NPC. So in practice they can often get what they want without the magic mart.

[Kane0]

4th edition is even stranger for enchanted items and costs though. The cost of enchanting an item is the same as amount the item costs to buy. If you sell it you get only 1/5 of the value of the item. Magic mart makes no sense under those circumstances as nobody can make a profit on selling items they've enchanted themself. Selling an item means losing money and disenchanting the item yourself gives you residuum worth 1/5 of the item you just trashed.

I meant more the concept than the mechanics & ratios.
Residuum is a silvery magical powder that is left over from disenchanting magical items and can be used in enchanting other ones or for high-powered spell components. Lets say you get half the item's value in residuum to make it work with how loot is sold currently.
Because it is so valuable and portable it is also used as high-value currency. Most well-off merchants would have a small supply of residuum they can buy and sell, and people can use it instead of gold/XP for crafting purposes.
So instead of a market having a ton of various specific magic items they would have a lot of more generic ones for direct trading and residuum for the rest. Smart wizards/crafters will also be close by to provide the service of putting that residuum to use if the locals can't do it themselves.

[DHKase]

Rules and setting aside; if you're the DM and it bothers you that much, then say it doesn't exist. The general population doesn't want/can't afford your PCs' crafted items, and there is no one with the ability to craft said items. Those items still exist, but they need to be quested after to get and can serve as plot hooks for adventures.

[Epsilon Rose]

[Stuff about the Tippy-verse]
Hey, Tippy, the world you keep describing seems interesting. You would't happen to have a guide or handbook for setting campaigns in a similar world; especially when the party isn't made up of super-optimizers.


I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

On the topic at hand, I may have a slightly non-conventional solution. What about using d20 modern's wealth mechanic. You could peg the various wealth levels to key magic items (the +x enchantments would probably make for a good start) and then add licencing restrictions to certain items to represent their availability.

This would have a few effects. On the plus side:

This system abstracts wealth, so you don't have to keep track of how much gp everyone has.
This frees up resources for roleplaying, so sickeningly rich adventurers don't act and dress like hobos.
Makes it so you have an easy mechanic that represents searching for stuff that would be difficult for characters to find, but fades away as the characters gain enough wealth to simply have it commisioned on a whim.
Doesn't prevent melee from getting the items they need.
Discourages stripping every location in the setting for maximum wealth and other mercinarial styles of play (the palidan can now actually act altruisticly without drastically weakening himself).
Makes the proffession skills slightly less irrelevant.


On the negative side:

This can drastically increase the power of the PCs; since, once they can afford a tier of items, they can afford as many items from that tier as they want (this is a bit less of an issue at really high tiers, since purchases gain a minimum wealth loss).
This makes consumables very easily available.



I think there's a relatively simple fix for the second problem. You could take an approach similar to Path of Exile and make consumables not actually consumables, but rechargeables. For example, once you use a potion x times, it runs out of charges and can't be used again, but it can be recharged. How it gets recharged is up to you. It could be as simple as refilling the flask with normal water (easy enough to do in general, but more difficult in combat or desert settings), make it time based (Tales of Maj'Eyal does this), or make it combat based (either per encounter, per hit, or per kill/incapacitation/defeat). You can even make each type of item have a different style of recharge. Then, to prevent people from getting dozens of these, you say that they're dependent on a person's Ambient Magical Field and that they can only have so many of each type active at any given time and re-attuning them takes more time/effort than simply replenishing them.

This system still creates a bit of a problem with scrolls, especially if you want to differentiate them from wands and staves, and I'm not sure how to solve the first problem, but I think it's a good start.

Edit:

Rules and setting aside; if you're the DM and it bothers you that much, then say it doesn't exist. The general population doesn't want/can't afford your PCs' crafted items, and there is no one with the ability to craft said items. Those items still exist, but they need to be quested after to get and can serve as plot hooks for adventures.

I'm not sure how well a +1 sword of fire or boots of boots of elvenkind would serve as a plot hook. I think it would get boring/annoying really fast.

[Malroth]

Do keep in mind however this Decision WILL weaken the weaker classes and strengthen the stronger ones and will prevent any Tier 3+ from being able to handle most level appropriate encounters.

[SinsI]

Given the value of their merchandise and the risk of loss due to theft, each shop's inventory would be consolidated to one central, strongly guarded location

Yeah, stealing it all from one place is so much easier! It also ensures bankruptcy of those who put all their eggs into one basket.


IMHO, magic items should be separated by the demand for them. Something like Pearls of Power is an absolute hit with all the wizards, so it makes sense to invest in making huge batches of them - so they are readily available. Same with all the items from the "must have" list - flight, true sight, short-range teleport, resistance to stun, daze, energy drain - as well as basic magic weapons/armor and cloaks of resistance.

But something that is useful in only a very rare situation should always be custom-made for you.

[DHKase]

I'm not sure how well a +1 sword of fire or boots of boots of elvenkind would serve as a plot hook. I think it would get boring/annoying really fast.

You could always go the Weapons of Legacy route and make it so the weapons can upgrade themselves if the continuous grind for equipment seems like a burden. It would help give the weapons and items you receive more meaning.

[Epsilon Rose]

You could always go the Weapons of Legacy route and make it so the weapons can upgrade themselves if the continuous grind for equipment seems like a burden. It would help give the weapons and items you receive more meaning.

That's probably a valid tactic. I haven't actually read the rules for it, but can weapons of legacy (or a similar mechanic) be applied to all of your items? Because, I think going on a quest for boots of elvenkind (or any of the required items) is probably going to be worse than going on a quest for a burning sword.

[Coidzor]

That's probably a valid tactic. I haven't actually read the rules for it, but can weapons of legacy (or a similar mechanic) be applied to all of your items? Because, I think going on a quest for boots of elvenkind (or any of the required items) is probably going to be worse than going on a quest for a burning sword.

No, but I suppose you could go ahead and crib those rules for an increasing number of items for the PCs, or even just borrow the rules for Ancestral Relic and let the PCs make their own stuff magic but only while they're wearing it.

[Philistine]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

Edit: The setting is Azeroth. No, I wouldn't like Tippyverse.

You might get more useful results from asking the RP Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30) what game system would work well for a game set in WarcraftWorld, because the real answer to the question in the title is, "What, in D&D 3E? You don't." D&D 3E is quite possibly the worst game system in the world for your stated preferences. The best you're going to be able to do is to dismember the system and play with one of the severed limbs - E6, because low-level play doesn't assume access to as many diverse capabilities, or allowing T1/T2 only, because they can get access to all those capabilities via magic.

Note that advice based on previous editions of D&D doesn't really apply to 3.X, because 3E's superficial similarities to AD&D obscure fundamentally different assumptions "under the hood": WotC's game just doesn't work the same way the TSR game did. And while it's true that the gold piece cost of a single low-level magic weapon is hilarious by non-adventurer standards, the fact is that D&D 3E explicitly calls for such sums to become chump change for adventurers by mid-levels. Seriously, an adventurer who survives to reach level 10 is expected to have amassed ~50k gp, on average, in the course of 45k xp worth of adventures - so how do you expect the PCs to spend that much wealth, if they can't buy magic items?

[DHKase]

That's probably a valid tactic. I haven't actually read the rules for it, but can weapons of legacy (or a similar mechanic) be applied to all of your items? Because, I think going on a quest for boots of elvenkind (or any of the required items) is probably going to be worse than going on a quest for a burning sword.

It would be a variant on what is published, but there is no reason why a DM couldn't make a few continuously upgrade-able 'signature' items for their PCs to find (or start with) as a work around for the Magic Mart.

This could put the evolution of the items in the DMs hands rather than the players if that is what the DM wants, or if the DM would rather leave it up to the players, then at certain points (like a level up or the completion of an adventure) they could say "I'm giving you the equivalent of Xgp to upgrade your signature items, go nuts."

[Spore]

As someone who knows a bit of warcraft lore:

WHY ON EARTH DIDN'T ANYONE MENTION THE GOBLINS?!

They are mostly greedy spellcasters selling EVERYthing. They'd sell their mother (and probably already did) and when they're not selling stuff, they craft. Same goes for gnomes although more reasonable.

With bad appraise checks, you could end up with an extremely overpriced item (but you CAN buy it) or something cheap that could explode and/or irradiate you.

[Jon_Dahl]

The guys who run the magic mart could just save the world by themselves. No need for adventurers.

[Clistenes]

I think the greatest issue I have with the Magic Market is the way they are often presented: A regular shop in a regular street, where a peddler keep stashes of magical swords and armor, or a room in a Wizard's Guild (and lets remind that, even in most settlements a Wizard's Guild would be a club of a dozen 1st or 2nd level wizards).

Finding powerful magical items should require contacts, gathering of information, asking for audience with some important people...etc. Once you are a famous adventurer to whom high priests, kings and archwizards are indebted to, finding magic items should be easy ("I will ask my colleages if they have some powerful staffs" "I will send word to all our temples to offer you their best stuff" "You have saved my daughter, have my grandfather's sword as reward" "I will summon a Noble Djinn for you, prepare your cash"...etc.).

[Emperor Tippy]

The guys who run the magic mart could just save the world by themselves. No need for adventurers.

And risk their lives and wealth when there are plenty of noble patsies around to save the world (and in the process collect lots of excess treasure that we can buy from them cheap)?

[Hyena]

This could put the evolution of the items in the DMs hands rather than the players if that is what the DM wants, or if the DM would rather leave it up to the players, then at certain points (like a level up or the completion of an adventure) they could say "I'm giving you the equivalent of Xgp to upgrade your signature items, go nuts."
I thi-i-i-ink that's the variant I'm going with. Thank you.


Apparently despite being a great Emperor you cannot read.
Hey-hey, let's not be so agressive here. I don't want to run Tippyverse, but that doesn't mean that I hate Tippy and want him to stay out of thread.

[johnbragg]

...
"I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand"."

Not to speak for the OP, but I think it breaks the suspension of disbelief for a non-high powered magic setting.



Magic Mart (in one of any number of forms) is the logical outcome and its lack breaks suspension of disbelief. Especially in any setting connected to the Great Wheel.

Disconnect campaign setting from Great Wheel.


1) Non charged magic items last until destroyed.

Possible solution--all but legendary-caliber items are single-use or charged. +1 swords are created by the same process as boots of haste and for accounting purposes, priced as wands. EDIT--2x wands, by analogy of scrolls:potions. Charged boots of warmth or swords +1 can be used by anyone, not limited to a class/race/etc so double cost.


2) Individuals create magic items in any number of ways.
3) Most magic items are worth more money than 99%+ of the worlds population will ever see.
4) There exists a significant market (as measured in GP) for said items on a world wide scale.

Making major magic items legendary can let the DM throw cultural monkeywrenches into this. A non-dwarf finds and is wielding the legendary Greataxe of Gromlir? IF he doesn't present that axe to its rightful dwarven owners, (Gromlir's clan), he's going to face the hostility of the dwarven clans.

ETc.


5) Most people with magic items gain little benefit from those items and would gain more benefit from other items.
6) The population that wants to buy magic items is very rich and powerful.
7) Rich and powerful people do not like to be inconvenienced and are even willing to pay to not be.

I think that's a modern assumption. "Convenience" is practically a modern invention. ALthough if you don't build in blocks, magitech means convenience and magical FedEX is going to happen.

If you don't want the Tippyverse, and you're not willing to just fiat it away, you need mechanical or cultural reasons that it doesn't happen. And one big one is really considering whether your campaign world needs planar travel and teleport spells.

[Jon_Dahl]

And risk their lives and wealth when there are plenty of noble patsies around to save the world (and in the process collect lots of excess treasure that we can buy from them cheap)?

Nevertheless, the owners of the magic mart are the true rulers of the universe. All those liches and dragons and epic creatures are just sideshow freaks, 'cause the MMOs are the The Big Guys. Once the universe is about to blow up, the magic mart owners just come and just fix everything in six seconds.

[mostlyharmful]

I'm surprised this has gotten to the third page before someone mentioned the Frank and K stuff out there. There's a lot of it to do with reducing the amount and availablity of high level magic items,

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other_Tome_of_Magic_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/SRP3

It's not to everyone's taste but there's a lot of thinking there that can be nicked and reworked easily enough.

[Gnaeus]

Not to speak for the OP, but I think it breaks the suspension of disbelief for a non-high powered magic setting.

Sure. Unfortunately, that isn't 3.5. Removing enough magic from 3.5 to make it a non-high powered magic setting has its own, larger balance problems, like making 5th level PC casters into demigods.

The lowish level way to stop some magic mart behavior is to assume a powerful local cabal of spellcasters given a monopoly on buying items by the local rulers. You can only legally sell items to them, or buy items from them, at whatever premium they want to give. Assume they made a deal with outside market forces to keep the hound archons out. Unfortunately, as soon as PCs can Teleport, Tree Stride, shadow walk, plane shift, etc, you are done.


Disconnect campaign setting from Great Wheel.

Now you are talking. If you put them in a pocket plane with closed entry/exit and without enough high level casters or buyers to make MM happen, you have a rational justification. Just make sure the PCs never get out.

[Absol197]

I had a response with examples from my current campaign about how I accomplish this (is not to hard and works well), but my computer ate it. I'll post it again when I get home from work.

[Absol197]

I'm managing it fairly easily in my current campaign. I have two rules that I use: first, I follow the table in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for number of magic items for sale in a city. Those items listed are the ones where the owner is actually looking for a buyer (or willing to consider selling it, at least). They are not all in one spot, nor are they all sitting for sale in shops.

In the city my PCs currently left, for instance, two of the items available were a +4 adamantine longsword, and a +2 belt of giant strength. It made sense for the dwarven merchants who came to town to sell their weapons to have the sword, whereas the local thieves' guild was trying to sell the belt out of their storefront. The scrolls available in the city were in the possession of the local wizards' assembly, and they weren't up for sale, but they could be bought or traded for if one sought the wizards out.

So rule #1 is making a list of what's available in the city, and finding what sort of organization is more likely to have such an item.

Secondly, as has been suggested, I limit the level of characters (and creatures!) in my campaigns. The average creature is level 1d4+highest mental ability modifier. The 1d4 is basically how much time and energy they put into their self-improvement, and the highest mental ability modifier represents their innate talent. Someone who's a genius (Int +3) who get's by on their talents would only be level 4, because they are lazy and don't try very hard, whereas someone who is less mentally acute than most (highest mental modifier -1) but tries very hard to make the most of themselves would still be level 3. Most people average out to level 2 or 3 plus highest mental.

This system also means that people who are considered "legendary" (level 11 or higher) are actually, well, legendary! someone who works hard (base 4), has a base 18 in a mental stat with a +2 racial bonus, can get to level 9. That gives them +2 from level stat boosts, getting them to level 10. But then they really can't get much further until they reach the old age category, bumping them up to level 11. So except in very extreme cases, there are no items that require a caster level of greater than 11, or a spell level of greater than 6 available. Certainly there are no living spellcasters easily able to be found capable of casting such spells and making such items the PCs might interact with, unless those people are some of the very few legends currently alive. Something like Tippy's common use of teleportation circles (and especially ice assassins) make no sense to me, because that's saying that people like Hercules are common enough that they can consistently be able to mass produce those things for commercial use.

Now, exceptions are made in this system for outsiders, some aberrations, dragons, fey, and other creature types. But considering that plane shift is a 5th-level spell for clerics and a 7th-level spell for wizards/sorcerers, only the greatest of the great clerics can even consider going to such places. So the higher level magic items that do get brought back from the worlds beyond are still rare treasures, and not likely to have a price sticker slapped on them and put on a display shelf.

That's how I do it, and it's been working great so far!


~Phoenix~

[Yahzi]

Don't make the modern-economy assumption that people in a non-modern economy are as motivated by money.
This, a thousand times this.

No wizard or priest needs a pile of gold. They aren't going to make you more powerful in exchange for a lump of useless metal.

Priests only make magic items for people who serve their cause; wizards only make items for their personal servants. Adventurers can kill people/things and collect random items, but if you want someone to do you a favor and make a specific thing, then you are going to pay in favors - regardless of how much gold goes where. They are only going to help their friends.

And btw, if you are footloose murder-hobo... you probably don't have any friends.

Of course this does mean banning artificers, but you can't avoid that. You can't have a class dedicated to making magic marts and not have magic marts. That would be like letting people play thieves but not allowing daggers in the game.

[Gnaeus]

This, a thousand times this.

No wizard or priest needs a pile of gold. They aren't going to make you more powerful in exchange for a lump of useless metal.

That may be the most rediculous thing I ever read on a forum.

1. There are priests to gods of commerce. That is, there are priests who worship wealth and barter.

2. Any priest who wants things done in the world, from feeding the poor to building new temples to raising crusading armies, knows that you can buy those things with those lumps of metal. Yeah, a holy man in the woods may not care, but the guy running the temple will, because running large organizations requires money.

3. Any priest or wizard knows that they can increase their personal power with those lumps of metal. Buying expensive spell components, crafting supplies, magic items they can't make themselves, buying favors from other casters or local authorities, etc. Money has been important to those in power since it was invented.

4. Even if they have no personal or political ambitions for themselves or their organizations, people still like money. It is what you use to buy goods and services. Unless you want to be dropping wish or miracle every time you want a nice bottle of wine or a fancy new robe, you better figure out what those lumps of metal are for.

5. Even if some priests and wizards do not care about gold, the thought that none do is absolutely contrary to human behavior

[mostlyharmful]

That may be the most rediculous thing I ever read on a forum.

1. There are priests to gods of commerce. That is, there are priests who worship wealth and barter.

2. Any priest who wants things done in the world, from feeding the poor to building new temples to raising crusading armies, knows that you can buy those things with those lumps of metal. Yeah, a holy man in the woods may not care, but the guy running the temple will, because running large organizations requires money.

3. Any priest or wizard knows that they can increase their personal power with those lumps of metal. Buying expensive spell components, crafting supplies, magic items they can't make themselves, buying favors from other casters or local authorities, etc. Money has been important to those in power since it was invented.

4. Even if they have no personal or political ambitions for themselves or their organizations, people still like money. It is what you use to buy goods and services. Unless you want to be dropping wish or miracle every time you want a nice bottle of wine or a fancy new robe, you better figure out what those lumps of metal are for.

5. Even if some priests and wizards do not care about gold, the thought that none do is absolutely contrary to human behavior

1. The point isn't that they won't do it for something of value, the point is that by the time you reach the spellcasting ability level of crafting medium and high end items you're so personally powerful that Gold loses all value, it's simply too easily acquired by less onerous means in far higher quantities. Priests of Wealth and Comerce would seem to be more keenly aware of the value of trade goods than even wizards, by mid levels you can bind outsiders and hae them mass produce items, loot the earth plane of gold and rubies, etc... it makes no sense to say that they would still value gold, but they would still value something, so long as it is usful to them and difficult to aquire. That's a quite small list of things.

See obligatory link to the Dungeononicon from Frank and K - http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

2. Organizations below a certain level would still use coins for some things sure, but by the time you're able to cast spells beyond a certain level the thing that the currencies value depends on is how much you (as a representative of a transglobal, superpowered organization) really wants to value it, remember the problem of trade in medieval societies, compound that with an elite trade network more disjoined from local politics than even our own current system and there's no reason why the Church of ShiningMcShiny the Good God would need more than a small amount of gold on hand for mid level transactions, they'd need lots more low level trade goods and high level disposable chunks of pure magic trading bars.

3. Money has been, gold has not. Gold is valuable only in as much as it is perceived to be valuable by those that want it, which is directly correlated with it's rarity. combine a Noble Djinn with a true creation effect and you've got infinite gold x3 daily. at mid levels. WBL tables are for making a new character.

4. If you're going by the insane prices listed in the handbook sure, but one of the best comic strips in GitP for me was the village prepping for adventurers... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html

5. Agreed, humans are weird and do things for non-rational reasons all the time, however it's a bit of a stretch to imagine more than one crazy old wizard that still cares about lumps of shiney gold enough to craft items for murder-hobos per setting. and generally he'd be too daft to cut it at high level to stay alive and be able to make the big stuff. To hae organizations doing it for cash is hard to support though.

[PersonMan]

I think that thread title is pretty self-explanatory. I don't like the whole magic mart thing, as it is very illogical and breaks the suspension of disbelief faster then you can say "law of supply and demand".

The way I'd do such a thing is:

-Use homebrew rules for crafting. It's not as easy as 'sit down with gold and XP for a month'.
-Give everyone, especially melee types, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) feat for free.
-All magic items are special and very powerful.

You get your 'necessary' bonuses from VoP and magic items that you find will all be special and powerful. Selling them is difficult or impossible, but the PCs still function normally because of their VoP bonuses.

You can add some customization so not everyone gets the exact same things, too.

[Threadnaught]

I think that's a modern assumption. "Convenience" is practically a modern invention.

For the poor and lower classes maybe. The rich and upper classes had the monopoly on convenience and it's only recently everyone else have been able to experience it. Even so, there are many things to make life rather inconvenient, many of which the rich and upper classes don't need to worry about as they mostly affect the poor and lower classes.

Convenience is for those who can afford it. As it has always been.